We could use some prison reform

[Brisketexan 104465]

4 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

While we are getting video game do-overs, I don’t think employers should be able to ask where I matriculated or in what discipline, either. I mean, an engineering degree would be tremendously better for my career path; I shouldn’t be held responsible for going finance instead.  Unfortunately people make decisions, and are held to them.  

Luck - I don’t think you know what that means. This board isnt full of “lucky” people who've spent their lives robbing, raping, and murdering people.  Most people go thru life avoiding crime so they don’t have to deal with the shit that comes along with it - prison time and shit employment.  

You don’t get marked for life for being caught with a small sack of weed, being drunk at a ball game, or even a DUI. You get “marked for life” for causing pain to other members of society. It’s supposed to be deterrent to shitheels who can’t follow common societal norms. 

Sure.  But understand that the functional effect is as follows:

- commit crime X, with a sentence of 5 years.

- Serve your time in prison, get released.

- Are you done paying your debt?  NOPE.  You are effectively unemployable (at anything but menial labor).  FOR LIFE.

 

So, that burglary where you were a dumbass/shitheel and committed when you were running with a bad crowd at age 19?  LIFE SENTENCE.  Because that's what it amounts to.  No matter if you have learned, and have changed, and WANT to be a productive member of society.  If you want to make a go of it in this world, we've created a system that all but tells you "well, you can't make a good living doing anything above-board....but hey, you could always go back to being a criminal."

The problem is that we have turned most every crime other than traffic offenses into a crime with a life sentence.  The sentence isn't "stay in prison."  It's "you are sentenced to never being able to get a decent job and make a decent living.  You are destined to live at the bottom rung of society, for the rest of your life."  Not only is that bullshit on its face, it's 100% counter-productive if we have a goal of a functioning society without creating a permanent underclass.

[Brisketexan 104465]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

I am neither.

But let’s qualify that criminal record.  Are you saying a felony or any jailable offense?

By saying what you said, you are contending that virtually everyone in ‘regular’ society has committed one or more of these offenses.  That’s just pure bullshit.

Do you know how broadly "burglary" is often defined?  Check this out:

Quote

Sec. 30.02. BURGLARY. (a) A person commits an offense if, without the effective consent of the owner, the person:

(1) enters a habitation, or a building (or any portion of a building) not then open to the public, with intent to commit a felony, theft, or an assault; or

(2) remains concealed, with intent to commit a felony, theft, or an assault, in a building or habitation; or

(3) enters a building or habitation and commits or attempts to commit a felony, theft, or an assault.

(b) For purposes of this section, "enter" means to intrude:

(1) any part of the body; or

(2) any physical object connected with the body.

(c) Except as provided in Subsection (c-1) or (d), an offense under this section is a:

(1) state jail felony if committed in a building other than a habitation; or

(2) felony of the second degree if committed in a habitation.

So...in college....did you ever sneak into a buddy's apartment or room to grab some of his beer?  Maybe you went on a panty raid or some other shenanigans whereby you stole something from a girl's place.

Congrats -- you committed a second degree FELONY.

But, being white college kids, even if busted by the cops, that's not how it went down for most of us.

The point is, it's REALLY easy to preach the "don't want to be a criminal, don't commit any crimes!" mantra....just understand that your high horse is more like a kneecapped Shetland pony.   I just picked burglary.  We could pop open a copy of the penal code, and I'm betting that if folks were honest, MOST of us would have a half dozen felonies that we TECHNICALLY committed (for example, did you ever get in a fight?)

The problem remains what I pointed out -- crimes with a light sentence (which we decided on, as a body politic, because it wasn't a serious crime) can have what amounts to a life sentence in terms of being crippling to your prospects of being a productive member of society.  That's F'd up.

Have the laws.  Sentence people to time.  They serve the time.  Then, the process should effectively be over and done with.  If you want to have burglary be a crime that ruins you for life, then let's have the balls and honesty to write that into the damned statute.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sure.  But understand that the functional effect is as follows:

- commit crime X, with a sentence of 5 years.

- Serve your time in prison, get released.

- Are you done paying your debt?  NOPE.  You are effectively unemployable (at anything but menial labor).  FOR LIFE.

 

So, that burglary where you were a dumbass/shitheel and committed when you were running with a bad crowd at age 19?  LIFE SENTENCE.  Because that's what it amounts to.  No matter if you have learned, and have changed, and WANT to be a productive member of society.  If you want to make a go of it in this world, we've created a system that all but tells you "well, you can't make a good living doing anything above-board....but hey, you could always go back to being a criminal."

The problem is that we have turned most every crime other than traffic offenses into a crime with a life sentence.  The sentence isn't "stay in prison."  It's "you are sentenced to never being able to get a decent job and make a decent living.  You are destined to live at the bottom rung of society, for the rest of your life."  Not only is that bullshit on its face, it's 100% counter-productive if we have a goal of a functioning society without creating a permanent underclass.

I hear you, and maybe this is a limitation of my mercy and grace and compassion (and would that extend to forgiveness?) or maybe it's a form of wisdom, but I want child sex offenders (and potentially murderers) to have an ear tag for the remainder of their lives. I want to know that a person, rehabilitated or otherwise, once upon a time had it in them to do such things and to make informed decisions based off that data.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Guest

[Brisketexan 104465]

8 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

I hear you, and maybe this is a limitation of my mercy and grace and compassion (and would that extend to forgiveness?) or maybe it's a form of wisdom, but I want child sex offenders (and potentially murderers) to have an ear tag for the remainder of their lives. I want to know that a person, rehabilitated or otherwise, once upon a time had it in them to do such things and to make informed decisions based off that data.

And that's within the reasonable bounds of fairness.  Crimes against a person should have additional consequences, even if secondary.

But we still should look at each crime level as its own thing.  Murder being something that carries a stigma?  Sure.  But what about manslaughter, in the case of that guy who got drunk at a bar, some dude started some shit, he threw a punch, and it ended up killing him?  All he did was throw a punch in a bar -- shit, most of us have done that at some point in our stupid youth.  Should that mean that a guy just like you and me, who happened to throw a (un)lucky punch should never be able to have a decent job once he pays his debt?

And surely, some property-only crimes should be relevant in certain contexts (as mentioned before, we don't want someone guilty of theft by fraud working in a sensitive financial position).

The point is, there's a thoughtful and deliberate way to go about this.  Instead, we have a system that focuses on being punitive, and a one-size-fits-EVERYONE set of consequences.  The guy who got busted stealing beer is as stigmatized (felon) as is the guy who murdered his wife (felon).  They're both gonna end up working shit jobs for the rest of their lives.  That makes no sense, and is counterproductive.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

I’d rather a burglar be forced to work and pay 30 percent of his salary in restitution. Say value of what was stolen plus 50 percent as a penalty.  And maybe have some sort of minimum penalty restitution of $10k or so. So the guy who steals a tv doesn’t just get off by paying $500.  

Aggravated violent criminals, armed robbers and rapists can stay in prison for decades.  Put them in long enough where they are too old to be much of a threat when they get out. 

[kevwun 15595]

If you take 30% of someone's monthly salary, a lot of people are going to end up stealing more stuff just to make ends meet.  The idea of monetary restitution instead of jail time is worth looking at, but I don't think something that steep is workable.

Edited May 29, 2018 by kevwun

[fattyflattie 4636]

55 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sure.  But understand that the functional effect is as follows:

- commit crime X, with a sentence of 5 years.

- Serve your time in prison, get released.

- Are you done paying your debt?  NOPE.  You are effectively unemployable (at anything but menial labor).  FOR LIFE.

 

So, that burglary where you were a dumbass/shitheel and committed when you were running with a bad crowd at age 19?  LIFE SENTENCE.  Because that's what it amounts to.  No matter if you have learned, and have changed, and WANT to be a productive member of society.  If you want to make a go of it in this world, we've created a system that all but tells you "well, you can't make a good living doing anything above-board....but hey, you could always go back to being a criminal."

The problem is that we have turned most every crime other than traffic offenses into a crime with a life sentence.  The sentence isn't "stay in prison."  It's "you are sentenced to never being able to get a decent job and make a decent living.  You are destined to live at the bottom rung of society, for the rest of your life."  Not only is that bullshit on its face, it's 100% counter-productive if we have a goal of a functioning society without creating a permanent underclass.

Yeah, I don’t disagree. I was replying back to a post that we should not have the ability to view ones past, no matter how heinous it may be.  Which is bullshit.  There’s a reason we don’t let people who commit robberies, rapes, and murders be school teachers or day care workers.  There is a reason I picked those three as an example, not the guy who stole a fucking case of beer from a friend.  

Also, if I’m the guy who has the felony for the case of beer, I’m attaching that shit to my resume, not lobbying to have it stricken from record.  Reasonable people would listen to your case imo.    I’m not the “lucky” one for living a relatively clean life; case of beer guy is the unlucky one.  

If I own my own business, why do I not have the right to know what kind of decision making my potential employee holds?  I value the guy who’s been a solid decision maker his whole life, not the one who found Allah in the joint.  

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Do you know how broadly "burglary" is often defined?  Check this out:

So...in college....did you ever sneak into a buddy's apartment or room to grab some of his beer?  Maybe you went on a panty raid or some other shenanigans whereby you stole something from a girl's place.

Congrats -- you committed a second degree FELONY.

But, being white college kids, even if busted by the cops, that's not how it went down for most of us.

The point is, it's REALLY easy to preach the "don't want to be a criminal, don't commit any crimes!" mantra....just understand that your high horse is more like a kneecapped Shetland pony.   I just picked burglary.  We could pop open a copy of the penal code, and I'm betting that if folks were honest, MOST of us would have a half dozen felonies that we TECHNICALLY committed (for example, did you ever get in a fight?)

The problem remains what I pointed out -- crimes with a light sentence (which we decided on, as a body politic, because it wasn't a serious crime) can have what amounts to a life sentence in terms of being crippling to your prospects of being a productive member of society.  That's F'd up.

Have the laws.  Sentence people to time.  They serve the time.  Then, the process should effectively be over and done with.  If you want to have burglary be a crime that ruins you for life, then let's have the balls and honesty to write that into the damned statute.

No.  I don't go in people's property without permission.

 

But yeah, if i did as a early 20's punk with no priors, you know as well as I do that i'm getting a deal offered. More importantly,  the state's not going to prosecute unless the property owner is pressing charges.  SO...either we were friends or we're not.  Either the guy had permission to be in the girl's domicile or he did not.  

 

What other accidental felonies ya got?  and we're still talking as if the vast majority of the prison population never had a chance.  They were poorly represented and never had any priors, right?

 

You know this isn't true.

Edited May 29, 2018 by slorch

[F250 28659]

"I've sentenced boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them."

[Brisketexan 104465]

1 minute ago, kevwun said:

If you take 30% of someone's monthly salary, a lot of people are going to end up stealing more stuff just to make ends meet. 

Yep.

There's a reason we don't have debtors' prisons.

I'm NOT opposed to the idea of restitution.  But it should be tied to means/ability to pay.  Flat, one-size-fits-all approaches are lousy in most ANY situation.  This is no exception.

Exacting retribution feels good (believe me -- I'm a vengeful fucker, I know this feeling well -- it's my dark side).  But does is advance the cause of (1) reducing crime, and (2) reducing the number of criminals?

We learned after Versailles that punitive reparations only create future conflict.

I'd rather we take approaches that DON'T turn criminals into 1930s Germany, but instead turn them into 1950s Germany.

 

[F250 28659]

5 minutes ago, kevwun said:

If you take 30% of someone's monthly salary, a lot of people are going to end up stealing more stuff just to make ends meet.  The idea of monetary restitution instead of jail time is worth looking at, but I don't think something that steep is workable.

Yeah, 30% of someone's income is probably unreasonable. That is likely to make an illegitimate means of income more rewarding than a legitimate one.

[Brisketexan 104465]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

No.  I don't go in people's property without permission.

 

But yeah, if i did as a early 20's punk with no priors, you know as well as I do that i'm getting a deal offered. More importantly,  the state's not going to prosecute unless the property owner is pressing charges.  SO...either we were friends or we're not.  Either the guy had permission to be in the girl's domicile or he did not.  

 

What other accidental felonies ya got?

And there's the difference between two relatively privileged white fellas (you and me) and a black kid.  Seriously, this plays a huge role in it.

I want black men to have job prospects.  But the way it stands, simply by virtue of growing up in the community they grow up in and the influences they are surrounded by when they are young/impressionable/stupid, they end up with a mark that they can never remove.

I want that 30 year old black guy who can say "yeah, I did some stupid shit with the crowd I grew up in, but I grew out of that.  And now I have a good job and a family."  

And back to the accidental felonies, ever punch someone and have them go to the ground?  There but for the grace of God you avoided a manslaughter charge.  One unlucky punch is all it takes.

[GotThatFire 166]

7 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

Get rid of the "have you ever been convicted of a crime" check box on job applications.  If you've done your time, your debt is paid and your ability to move past it shouldn't be hampered.

Would you draw a line at certain crimes? 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And there's the difference between two relatively privileged white fellas (you and me) and a black kid.  Seriously, this plays a huge role in it.

I want black men to have job prospects.  But the way it stands, simply by virtue of growing up in the community they grow up in and the influences they are surrounded by when they are young/impressionable/stupid, they end up with a mark that they can never remove.

I want that 30 year old black guy who can say "yeah, I did some stupid shit with the crowd I grew up in, but I grew out of that.  And now I have a good job and a family."  

And back to the accidental felonies, ever punch someone and have them go to the ground?  There but for the grace of God you avoided a manslaughter charge.  One unlucky punch is all it takes.

No. I never have accidentally hit someone.

Are you fucking kidding?  Seriously?  Why are we acting as if crime is some extenuating circumstance?

I'm sure you can cite some exception or someone who fell through the cracks, but you expect me to believe that's why the prisons are full?

 

and for the record, I was poor as fuck in my high school years living in gov't housing.  Those conditions didn't make me commit crimes.  Neither did my friends who happened to be black.  Yeah, Slorch is playing THAT card, but to this day, 3 of us are still close and remain friends through the years.  Not one of us has ever been arrested.  None of us committed any involuntary crimes.  we all had parents/ grandparents who set the tone for what the expectations were, but it still came down to personal character.  that isn't me slapping my own back, but the point is that people own what the fuck they do.  Acting as if all these people committed these crimes because they were poor or because of skin color is bullshit.  You people who subscribe to it are the enablers.  You're not helping anyone...

[Brisketexan 104465]

1 minute ago, slorch said:

No. I never have accidentally hit someone.

Are you fucking kidding?  Seriously?  Why are we acting as if crime is some extenuating circumstance?

I'm sure you can cite some exception or someone who fell through the cracks, but you expect me to believe that's why the prisons are full?

 

and for the record, I was poor as fuck in my high school years living in gov't housing.  Those conditions didn't make me commit crimes.  Neither did my friends who happened to be black.  Yeah, Slorch is playing THAT card, but to this day, 3 of us are still close and remain friends through the years.  Not one of us has ever been arrested.  None of us committed any involuntary crimes.  we all had parents/ grandparents who set the tone for what the expectations were, but it still came down to personal character.  that isn't me slapping my own back, but the point is that people own what the fuck they do.  Acting as if all these people committed these crimes because they were poor or because of skin color is bullshit.  You people who subscribe to it are the enablers.  You're not helping anyone...

Not my scenario.  Read it again.  Have you ever punched anyone?  Yes or no.

[Brisketexan 104465]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

we all had parents/ grandparents who set the tone for what the expectations were,

And this....what if you didn't have those things?

[Guest]

7 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

Get rid of the "have you ever been convicted of a crime" check box on job applications.  If you've done your time, your debt is paid and your ability to move past it shouldn't be hampered.

Tell that to the ambulance chasers and lawyers who sue employers because they hired a dude who had a DUI when he was 20, but has been clean for 10 years,

 

The reason a bunch of felons are not hireable is not because of some super selectivity by employers.  The fact is, the liability is too fucking high.

Edited May 29, 2018 by slorch

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And this....what if you didn't have those things?

so they are all orphans...

 

OK brisket.  You win.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Not my scenario.  Read it again.  Have you ever punched anyone?  Yes or no.

Not since about my Sophomore year in high school...and not counting football practice.

No I have not assaulted anyone as an adult.  i had the capability and even willingness, but situations worked out differently.

 

Again, why is it assumed everyone has done these things?

[Brisketexan 104465]

Just now, slorch said:

so they are all orphans...

 

OK brisket.  You win.

Nope.  But a shitload of them don't have a dad around.  Or, a shitload of them are raised by two shitheel parents.

Again, these things come back to the ODDS.

Sure, a kid raised in that situation can turn out fine.  But give me the kid raised by caring and decent parents who imbue in him a sense of ambition and vision for the future.  His chances of turning out well are 10X better.

Which takes us back to the point -- we should just fucking give up on the concept of rehabilitation.  Fuck, we might as well execute people who commit any felony.  After all, we're sentencing them to what amounts to a life on the margins, where their choices are effectively poverty wages or crime.  Might as well just put them out of their misery.

OR, we could, you know, have a system that, for SOME crimes (e.g., nonviolent crimes and the like), actually tries to rehabilitate people and get them on a path where they can CONTRIBUTE to society in their adulthood.

Naah, let's just punish everyone, as hard as we can, for their entire lives.  That seems to be working out well for us.

[Brisketexan 104465]

Just now, slorch said:

Not since about my Sophomore year in high school...and not counting football practice.

No I have not assaulted anyone as an adult.  i had the capability and even willingness, but situations worked out differently.

 

Again, why is it assumed everyone has done these things?

Sophomore year of high school (my last punch was freshman year of college).

The point is, you and I both got LUCKY.  Had either of those punches sent the target to the ground, cracking his skull on the pavement and dying, we'd have faced manslaughter charges.  Maybe yours would have been a juvenile charge.  Or maybe you live in one of those counties that loves to charge 16 year olds as adults.  Either way, if you've thrown a punch, you were an unlucky break away from committing manslaughter.

A millimeter can be the difference between "just another kid" and "felon."  All I'm saying is....perhaps we don't give everyone a life sentence for everything.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

32 minutes ago, kevwun said:

If you take 30% of someone's monthly salary, a lot of people are going to end up stealing more stuff just to make ends meet.  The idea of monetary restitution instead of jail time is worth looking at, but I don't think something that steep is workable.

My point is to make it optional.  Prison or job requirement plus restitution. Maybe lower the percentage.  What’s the max child support percentage?  Make it that amount. 

Do a suspended sentence and make it a condition of parole that they work and pay restitution. 

No one is making them do it.  Just an option they can take in lieu of prison. 

And if they complete it, expunge their convictions.  

[Brisketexan 104465]

6 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

My point is to make it optional.  Prison or job requirement plus restitution. Maybe lower the percentage.  What’s the max child support percentage?  Make it that amount. 

Do a suspended sentence and make it a condition of parole that they work and pay restitution. 

No one is making them do it.  Just an option they can take in lieu of prison. 

And if they complete it, expunge their convictions.  

Okay, I'm listening.

[CooterBrown 17875]

Tell that to the ambulance chasers and lawyers who sue employers because they hired a dude who had a DUI when he was 20, but has been clean for 10 years,
 
The reason a bunch of felons are not hireable is not because of some super selectivity by employers.  The fact is, the liability is too fucking high.

It’s fine to disqualify a DUI conviction from a driving job but it disqualifies people from any job.

For example, I have a contractor who is fantastic at the job, an entry level Python programmer. I offered her a full time position. The background check comes back that she has a DWI so she’s unhireable at my company. The position will never drive for the company but it didn’t matter to HR.

[SKJ 1305]

So many of you wouldn't have even survived a month of what a lot of criminals have been through. Some choices look like choices, but aren't.

It's always great to have angels like slorch wearing his "history" as a badge of honor, shitting on life experience as some holier-than-thou priest of bootstrapped success, but let's be real here. 

Slorch would've been a fucking corpse in many, many situations, especially say, being homeless at 15. Granted, this is not an excuse for crimes, but it does explain a lot. Of course, you always have those that were saves by Daddy Warbucks, or some other shit, that act as if they did it all on their own, but they didn't. That's why it's completely disingenuous for someone to act as if they were on their own, but never were completely and fully on their own at such a young age. 

We all do commend you, slorch, for your unbreakable will and your unshakeable faith in knowing and earning, solely on your own, your full success, but you're not the rule, you're the anointed example for all of us weaker, more pathetic individuals to follow. 

Maybe some day we'll all be as amazing as you.

Having said that, I do realize many people are much lesser creature than he, but what if they haven't committed a crime in 20 years? What if they've put 2 decades worth of education and perfect, crimeless job history behind them? I realize there's no substitute for being a demigod like Slorch, but at what point does it stop?

But no, really, I'm done on this subject because I know it's all fantasy that it'll ever change, but really... All of you motherfuckers that have no mercy and will never support giving people a second chance, even if they've murdered a few worthless pieces of shit in their lifetime, you all deserve all the crime that befalls you... You cocksuckers are creating it with these fucked up policies, and therefore, you pieces of shit should suffer it.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 minute ago, SKJ said:

So many of you wouldn't have even survived a month of what a lot of criminals have been through. Some choices look like choices, but aren't.

It's always great to have angels like slorch wearing his "history" as a badge of honor, shitting on life experience as some holier-than-thou priest of bootstrapped success, but let's be real here. 

Slorch would've been a fucking corpse in many, many situations, especially say, being homeless at 15. Granted, this is not an excuse for crimes, but it does explain a lot. Of course, you always have those that were saves by Daddy Warbucks, or some other shit, that act as if they did it all on their own, but they didn't. That's why it's completely disingenuous for someone to act as if they were on their own, but never were completely and fully on their own at such a young age. 

We all do commend you, slorch, for your unbreakable will and your unshakeable faith in knowing and earning, solely on your own, your full success, but you're not the rule, you're the anointed example for all of us weaker, more pathetic individuals to follow. 

Maybe some day we'll all be as amazing as you.

Having said that, I do realize many people are much lesser creature than he, but what if they haven't committed a crime in 20 years? What if they've put 2 decades worth of education and perfect, crimeless job history behind them? I realize there's no substitute for being a demigod like Slorch, but at what point does it stop?

But no, really, I'm done on this subject because I know it's all fantasy that it'll ever change, but really... All of you motherfuckers that have no mercy and will never support giving people a second chance, even if they've murdered a few worthless pieces of shit in their lifetime, you all deserve all the crime that befalls you... You cocksuckers are creating it with these fucked up policies, and therefore, you pieces of shit should suffer it.

You sound perfectly rehabilitated 

[TwiceHorn 31184]

44 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

You sound perfectly rehabilitated 

Not going to begrudge the man his anger.  The solution isn't easy and won't be coming soon, but simple-minded approaches of do the crime do the time aren't doing anyone any good.

One of the major issues I have is that a ton of crime is mental-health-related and little or nothing is done to address that, but throw the person in the slam and guarantee that they will live a life of crime and/or government dependence.  And that doesn't even address the collateral consequences.

Also, slorch's perspective is warped by the Texas criminal justice system.  While far from perfect, believe it or not, Texas is a leader in alternatives to incarceration and other ideas that tend to reduce incarceration.

People should be pissed off at how much we spend on prisons and related things.

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

You sound perfectly rehabilitated 

Exactly. 

Also, the bit upthread about the DUI isn’t completely true. My wife got one in college and now works in a role that requires her to travel to do inhome type therapy for the disabled.  They are basically a state program, and she averages about 40k miles/yr.  Not talking got lawyer and lessened DUI, talking blowing into her car and paying tons of money each year as some yearly fine for it DUI.  This was 12-15 years ago but still, never a hiccup in employment. I can see it being an issue though. 

[fattyflattie 4636]

26 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

People should be pissed off at how much we spend on prisons and related things.

People should be pissed we have to live amongst as many violent criminals as we do.

And then excuse them because poverty, or drugs, or daddy didn’t care or whatever the fuck.  I’ve still yet to see a good reason why someone should rape a woman. Anyone can tell me that?  Why someone should be held up at gunpoint because you like my watch and wallet more than I do. Or have their house broken into while their kids are upstairs because you had a shitty go at childhood.  

Explain to me why that individual who rapes the 19 yo college girl out on a jog should be back on the streets applying for jobs in the first place. 

[kevwun 15595]

Yeah no one on this thread said that.

[Brisketexan 104465]

Yeah no one on this thread said that.

This. Epic straw man.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

3 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

People should be pissed we have to live amongst as many violent criminals as we do.

And then excuse them because poverty, or drugs, or daddy didn’t care or whatever the fuck.  I’ve still yet to see a good reason why someone should rape a woman. Anyone can tell me that?  Why someone should be held up at gunpoint because you like my watch and wallet more than I do. Or have their house broken into while their kids are upstairs because you had a shitty go at childhood.  

Explain to me why that individual who rapes the 19 yo college girl out on a jog should be back on the streets applying for jobs in the first place. 

Nice straw man there.

 

Crime is going to happen.  Some people are incorrigible.  A lot of people aren't.  Is the US special?  Why do we imprison more people than any place on earth?

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 minute ago, kevwun said:

Yeah no one on this thread said that.

Post #75.  

Why should we worry about murdering people deemed “worthless pieces of shit”.  Who the fuck gets to judge who’s a worthless piece of shit worth killing? 

[Brisketexan 104465]

Post #75.  
Why should we worry about murdering people deemed “worthless pieces of shit”.  Who the fuck gets to judge who’s a worthless piece of shit worth killing? 

Well, the president seems to think he does. And he’s no better than me, so fuck it, we all do.

Bottom line: if you want to give someone a life sentence, then have the balls to do it up front. Amend the penal code and be done with it. Felony conviction = life sentence, no parole. See how easy that was to write?

[fattyflattie 4636]

Come on. 3 posts in a row about strawmen and that’s it? 

What kind of second chance do we owe someone who’s killed “a few pieces of shit”?   Did the victims families not miss them? Did the victim have kids? Uncles, aunts, mothers and fathers?   Where is the line drawn?   One life taken, the other needs to be helped back to society because “it’s not fair”? 

If you want to talk about someone who gets stuck on a pot charge, ok. But that’s pretty easy. Let’s talk about what to do with the folks who’ve purposefully taken the lives of others. Or taken their dignity through raping them. Something that’s a bit more difficult to quantify. 

Personal question. How would you feel if that “worthless POS” was Brisket jr?  You still good for that guy being able to teach at the local school? Maybe the offender got his degree while in prison, and found religon. Is that enough? Are the victims family’s wounds healed?  My guess is you would want him under the jail  

My first post was in response to “time done, records absolved”.  

[TwiceHorn 31184]

3 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Come on. 3 posts in a row about strawmen and that’s it? 

What kind of second chance do we owe someone who’s killed “a few pieces of shit”?   Did the victims families not miss them? Did the victim have kids? Uncles, aunts, mothers and fathers?   Where is the line drawn?   One life taken, the other needs to be helped back to society because “it’s not fair”? 

If you want to talk about someone who gets stuck on a pot charge, ok. But that’s pretty easy. Let’s talk about what to do with the folks who’ve purposefully taken the lives of others. Or taken their dignity through raping them. Something that’s a bit more difficult to quantify. 

Personal question. How would you feel if that “worthless POS” was Brisket jr?  You still good for that guy being able to teach at the local school? Maybe the offender got his degree while in prison, and found religon. Is that enough? Are the victims family’s wounds healed?  My guess is you would want him under the jail  

My first post was in response to “time done, records absolved”.  

First of all, the topic of the thread is prison reform.  Prison doesn't work, so why do we spend so much money imprisoning people?  We aren't talking about the worst of the worst.  Do you think prisons are filled entirely with rapists and murderers?

[fattyflattie 4636]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

First of all, the topic of the thread is prison reform.  Prison doesn't work, so why do we spend so much money imprisoning people?  We aren't talking about the worst of the worst.  Do you think prisons are filled entirely with rapists and murderers?

No. 

But lots get out of prison and enter back into society, especially those that committed their crimes at a young age.  So they would likely face the same issues of not beig able to find a job.  They was lots of discussion of that very issue in this thread. But if it’s not where you want to go with it, or you don’t want to answer what we should do with those folks, then we can talk about the easy shit like getting junkies work after prison. 

[High Plains Drifter 10970]

 

On 5/27/2018 at 5:33 PM, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Land of the free!

 

Home of the Brave!

 

 

On 5/27/2018 at 10:55 PM, The People’s Elbow said:

Slorch is Rocko? 

 

Rocko is Slorch?

 

Slorch may be a lot of disagreeable things, but he's no Rocko.

 

 

6 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Do you know how broadly "burglary" is often defined?  Check this out:

So...in college....did you ever sneak into a buddy's apartment or room to grab some of his beer?  Maybe you went on a panty raid or some other shenanigans whereby you stole something from a girl's place.

Congrats -- you committed a second degree FELONY.

But, being white college kids, even if busted by the cops, that's not how it went down for most of us.

The point is, it's REALLY easy to preach the "don't want to be a criminal, don't commit any crimes!" mantra....just understand that your high horse is more like a kneecapped Shetland pony.   I just picked burglary.  We could pop open a copy of the penal code, and I'm betting that if folks were honest, MOST of us would have a half dozen felonies that we TECHNICALLY committed (for example, did you ever get in a fight?)

The problem remains what I pointed out -- crimes with a light sentence (which we decided on, as a body politic, because it wasn't a serious crime) can have what amounts to a life sentence in terms of being crippling to your prospects of being a productive member of society.  That's F'd up.

Have the laws.  Sentence people to time.  They serve the time.  Then, the process should effectively be over and done with.  If you want to have burglary be a crime that ruins you for life, then let's have the balls and honesty to write that into the damned statute.

Shenanigans!

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31184]

7 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

No. 

But lots get out of prison and enter back into society, especially those that committed their crimes at a young age.  So they would likely face the same issues of not beig able to find a job.  They was lots of discussion of that very issue in this thread. But if it’s not where you want to go with it, or you don’t want to answer what we should do with those folks, then we can talk about the easy shit like getting junkies work after prison. 

I'm discussing it, you are throwing out straw men and unsupported assertions.

Almost everyone gets out of prison at some point.  I don't think a whole lot of them "enter back into society."  A whole lot of them don't.

Edited May 30, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[fattyflattie 4636]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

I'm discussing it, you are throwing out straw men and unsupported assertions.

Well, rather than wowing me with your one liners, let’s discuss it. 

What type of help, as a society, should we give an individual who is leaving prison at the age of 40, after being convicted of rape at the age of 18. Say they had it on video, or he didn’t wear a rubber, whatever. Actually guilty.  While in prison he was a “model” prisoner and did some studying, found god, blah blah. 

Do you feel he should have gone to prison in the first place?

is 20 years for a violent rape the proper sentence? 

Should he be able to have any job he can get?

Should he be assisted in finding a “good” job once out? 

 

[TwiceHorn 31184]

7 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Well, rather than wowing me with your one liners, let’s discuss it. 

What type of help, as a society, should we give an individual who is leaving prison at the age of 40, after being convicted of rape at the age of 18. Say they had it on video, or he didn’t wear a rubber, whatever. Actually guilty.  While in prison he was a “model” prisoner and did some studying, found god, blah blah. 

Do you feel he should have gone to prison in the first place?

is 20 years for a violent rape the proper sentence? 

Should he be able to have any job he can get?

Should he be assisted in finding a “good” job once out? 

 

I said earlier that I don't know exactly what the solution is.  But we need to give it some thought.  Thought on these topics has been conspicuously absent for about 200 years, which is why we're where we're at.

I don't think you can make policy in this arena starting with rapists and murderers.  Start with "nonviolent" offenders.

But, as brisket notes, our system tends to just label people "felons," and quit.  I think we know enough now to make reasonable risk evaluations on a lot of people that are released or even due to be sentenced/incarcerated, yet we treat them mostly all the same.

Sentences are generally too long, in my opinion.  But we're getting astray from prison reform, per se.

Edited May 30, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[DixonHur 11074]

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

Who the fuck gets to judge who’s a worthless piece of shit worth killing?

Fine, I'll do it...

[fattyflattie 4636]

8 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I said earlier that I don't know exactly what the solution is.  But we need to give it some thought.  Thought on these topics has been conspicuously absent for about 200 years, which is why we're where we're at.

One problem is we probably need to define what exactly they are supposed to accomplish. I think you have two groups, one that believes prisons are to rehabilitate, the other believing they are purely a method of punishment, where you will sit in timeout because you can’t assimliate with law abiding society. I believe that second group would be fine if rehabilitation was accomplished during that timeout, but it is not the reason for the prison.

Should the determining factor be if the crime isn’t violent?  There have been white collar crimes that have left thousands of people in ruins.  It’s very evident I’m not an attorney, so I’m interested in what that breakdown would look like from folks that understand law. 

We all can agree the guy who stole the case of beer probably shouldn’t be a felon. But what about the guy who broke into my house and stole my Rolex? 

ETA - I lean towards the one size fits all BECAUSE I think it would help with the biases. While it sucks for the guy who stole the beer, at least there is equality between race/wealth/religion/gender whatever.   I typically think things should be case by case, but apparently we’ve proven we can’t handle fair/equal sentencing. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by fattyflattie

[Guest]

One gigantic problem we have is people not owning when they fuck up. Instead we want to dilly-dally around and worry about their feelings or mental state.

Why?  I do not fucking know beyond a a monumental guilt complex, within.

Lack of accountability is a huge reason why we have the problems we have today.

 

It isn't wrong to tell people they fucked up.  It isn't wrong to rescind freedoms/ liberty afforded to those who cannot wield it responsibly.

 

[Brisketexan 104465]

One gigantic problem we have is people not owning when they fuck up. Instead we want to dilly-dally around and worry about their feelings or mental state.
Why?  I do not fucking know beyond a a monumental guilt complex, within.
Lack of accountability is a huge reason why we have the problems we have today.
 
It isn't wrong to tell people they fucked up.  It isn't wrong to rescind freedoms/ liberty afforded to those who cannot wield it responsibly.
 

Excellent. I’m done with pussyfooting on this. If we’re going to punish everyone, forever, for every crime, let’s fucking do it: there’s just one sentence - death. That’s it. Fuck this half-measure bullshit of jail, then letting them out to be unemployable and then fall back into a life of crime or just being a drain on society. Finish it. Convicted of a felony? Death.

OR...crazy idea....we could actually create balanced policy that 1) creates consequences for crime, 2) protects society, and 3) maximizes the benefit to society when prisoners are released so that they aren’t a further burden on society. Man. What a wacky idea.

Slorch, your post is fucking garbage. We imprison felons. That’s a goddamned consequence and accountability. The issue here is that maybe it’s in our fucking best interest to have these folks, when they are released, be able to participate in society and earn a living.

Nah, just execute em. Real consequences, inflicted by real men! America!

[F250 28659]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

One gigantic problem we have is people not owning when they fuck up. Instead we want to dilly-dally around and worry about their feelings or mental state.

Why?  I do not fucking know beyond a a monumental guilt complex, within.

Lack of accountability is a huge reason why we have the problems we have today.

 

It isn't wrong to tell people they fucked up.  It isn't wrong to rescind freedoms/ liberty afforded to those who cannot wield it responsibly.

 

No, you knucklehead, the idea isn't to spare feelings it's what is the best method for reintergrating criminals into society. The data doesn't support a strong punitive solution but it does support one that leans towards rehabilitation.

The idea is to reduce the criminal class by bringing them back into a law abiding society. Obviously, our current method isn't working. All of the other developed nations seem to have more success than us with this problem and they don't follow our methods.

Rather than stupidly chase the red herring of the pedo being allowed to be a preschool teacher, let's start with non-violent crimes.

Does locking up some 19 year old for 35 years for selling crack really benefit society versus rehabilitating him and reintergrating him back into society with marketable skills and the means to gain employment?

 

Edited May 30, 2018 by F250

[Nice Guy Eddie 13391]

21 hours ago, elfenix said:

 

there's a charitable bail fund in NY that pays people's bail (small dollar figures, almost everything is under $1,000), has a 95% court appearance rate, and a much higher rate of non-guilty outcomes as well:

 

https://www.marketplace.org/2018/04/24/business/make-me-smart-kai-and-molly/60-great-lie-heart-criminal-justice-system

I bet they're popular with the bail bonds companies....

I can't recall where I read this, but there was some Euro country that found that just reaching out to the defendant a few days/weeks before the trial to remind them of their upcoming trial date drastically increased the appearance rate.   And its in the financial best interest of the court for the defendant to show up, so the cost of an employee, to call each defendant, pays for itself.   

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

I'm just glad Kim Kardashian is on the case. She has a sex tape and a reality tv show. She's qualified. 

[hayden_horn 11360]

14 hours ago, SKJ said:

So many of you wouldn't have even survived a month of what a lot of criminals have been through. Some choices look like choices, but aren't.

It's always great to have angels like slorch wearing his "history" as a badge of honor, shitting on life experience as some holier-than-thou priest of bootstrapped success, but let's be real here. 

Slorch would've been a fucking corpse in many, many situations, especially say, being homeless at 15. Granted, this is not an excuse for crimes, but it does explain a lot. Of course, you always have those that were saves by Daddy Warbucks, or some other shit, that act as if they did it all on their own, but they didn't. That's why it's completely disingenuous for someone to act as if they were on their own, but never were completely and fully on their own at such a young age. 

We all do commend you, slorch, for your unbreakable will and your unshakeable faith in knowing and earning, solely on your own, your full success, but you're not the rule, you're the anointed example for all of us weaker, more pathetic individuals to follow. 

Maybe some day we'll all be as amazing as you.

Having said that, I do realize many people are much lesser creature than he, but what if they haven't committed a crime in 20 years? What if they've put 2 decades worth of education and perfect, crimeless job history behind them? I realize there's no substitute for being a demigod like Slorch, but at what point does it stop?

But no, really, I'm done on this subject because I know it's all fantasy that it'll ever change, but really... All of you motherfuckers that have no mercy and will never support giving people a second chance, even if they've murdered a few worthless pieces of shit in their lifetime, you all deserve all the crime that befalls you... You cocksuckers are creating it with these fucked up policies, and therefore, you pieces of shit should suffer it.

 

14 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

You sound perfectly rehabilitated 

actually, he completely does, if you've followed his story for the past 5 years or whatever from the other site.

20 years of keeping your nose clean is what we need our convicted felons to do. at what point is what we extract enough for them to rejoin society? while skj is an admittedly extreme case, he wants nothing than to work hard for a living and succeed. THAT IS WHAT WE WANT HIM TO DO, RIGHT? if so, we go an awfully far distance to make sure he cannot. it's fucking shameful.

i've posted about my sister before, but she got caught with a little too much meth on at traffic stop, and is now a convicted felon. it's completely ruined her life. as if the addiction problem was not enough to overcome, she's effectively barred from jobs she at which she would otherwise do very well. but that scarlet F is too much for employers. the result has been a fairly broken life. when people become unemployable, they hang out with other unemployable people and the results are sadly predictable.

fuck our justice system. it's a joke. justice my ass.

[Brisketexan 104465]

24 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

when people become unemployable, they hang out with other unemployable people and the results are sadly predictable.

That's the key -- that's our entire pivot point.

When people have completed their statutorily-mandated sentence, what outcome do we want AFTER that?

Make them unemployable for life?  How does that work out well for the rest of us?  So Bob the ex-con is either utterly poor and depends on public assistance, OR, Bob the ex-con does what many folks do when they are forced out of the legitimate marketplace: he participates in the illegitimate marketplace (criminal activity) to make money?  That outcome is good for the rest of us....how, exactly?

Yes, public safety should still remain in play.  Convicted rapists probably shouldn't be pre-school teachers, etc.  But does that mean that they shouldn't be employable in an office billing department, for example?

What is good for SOCIETY when ex-cons are released?  If you think the answer is "punish them more!  CONSEQUENCES!!", you're being short-sighted as hell.  We've already imposed statutorily-prescribed consequences.  If your answer is "MORE!", then let's just be honest about it, and mandate that every felony conviction means life in prison.