Boeing 737 carrying 132 passengers crashes in China

[High Plains Drifter 11048]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:28 AM, Bobby_Batronic said:

Possible emergency descent, level off and pilots overcome by smoke, fumes or other issue?

 

I though of this as well.

was the level off altitude low enough to not worry about low O2? or sub zero temps?

 

edit: just saw the level off altitude was 10k. If correct, then yes low enough for O2.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by High Plains Drifter

[EuroHorn 3263]

Looks like somebody ordered Chinese takeout 

[DaysOff 7947]

My understanding is that on the 738 (and pretty much all planes presently in operation), when you step on the rudder, you're going to feel resistance commensurate with your airspeed.  So it's going to be a lot harder to push the rudder pedals at 450 knots than it will be at 150 knots.
That's not necessary, because it's all fly-by-wire.  But the computer makes it harder to push the pedals at higher airspeed to signal to the pilot that less input is needed/proper at higher airspeed (which is the input the pilot would receive naturally if it were still manual control).
In those first-generation fly-by-wire planes like the A300, it didn't have that feature.  So it was just as easy to push the rudder pedals all the way over at 450 knots as it was at 150 knots.
But I'm going off my memory of what I was told years ago by SWA pilots who were very pro-Boeing and anti-"French-pieces-of-shit," to use a phrase I heard once or twice.  So I'll defer to your knowledge of the subject.

There's no reason to touch the rudder pedals once airborne unless an engine quits.

[Ag with kids 581]

50 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

My understanding is that on the 738 (and pretty much all planes presently in operation), when you step on the rudder, you're going to feel resistance commensurate with your airspeed.  So it's going to be a lot harder to push the rudder pedals at 450 knots than it will be at 150 knots.

That's not necessary, because it's all fly-by-wire.  But the computer makes it harder to push the pedals at higher airspeed to signal to the pilot that less input is needed/proper at higher airspeed (which is the input the pilot would receive naturally if it were still manual control).

In those first-generation fly-by-wire planes like the A300, it didn't have that feature.  So it was just as easy to push the rudder pedals all the way over at 450 knots as it was at 150 knots.

But I'm going off my memory of what I was told years ago by SWA pilots who were very pro-Boeing and anti-"French-pieces-of-shit," to use a phrase I heard once or twice.  So I'll defer to your knowledge of the subject.

Seems to me that the FCC could control that even without giving the tactile feedback.   Basically speed gain the amount of control to the rudder.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

28 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

There's no reason to touch the rudder pedals once airborne unless an engine quits.

He’s referring to the A300 that encountered wake turbulence and lost its vertical stabilizer after the FO kicked hard rudder multiple times to recover. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

My understanding is that on the 738 (and pretty much all planes presently in operation), when you step on the rudder, you're going to feel resistance commensurate with your airspeed.  So it's going to be a lot harder to push the rudder pedals at 450 knots than it will be at 150 knots.

That's not necessary, because it's all fly-by-wire.  But the computer makes it harder to push the pedals at higher airspeed to signal to the pilot that less input is needed/proper at higher airspeed (which is the input the pilot would receive naturally if it were still manual control).

In those first-generation fly-by-wire planes like the A300, it didn't have that feature.  So it was just as easy to push the rudder pedals all the way over at 450 knots as it was at 150 knots.

But I'm going off my memory of what I was told years ago by SWA pilots who were very pro-Boeing and anti-"French-pieces-of-shit," to use a phrase I heard once or twice.  So I'll defer to your knowledge of the subject.

There is no feedback in the French pieces of shit. The system is designed to react the same and provide the same feel in all regimes under normal law. DaysOff is correct. There is no need to touch the pedals at all in normal flight, but the AA pilot input several large rudder movements in short order and exceeded the structural limits of the plane. I doubt he was thinking about maneuvering speed at all, but the subsequent investigation revealed a misconception about certification limits under that speed, and also some pilot upset training issues dating back to primary instruction using rudder pedals to recover so as not to exacerbate the stall over the down deflected aileron with a higher angle of attack. Basic spin avoidance. 
 

We don’t teach rudder usage at all in our upset training. We zero the angle of attack to unload the plane thereby placing zero stress on it, roll upright, get level within g limits, and then adjust power. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Bobby_Batronic

[Hanrahan 1306]

That's how I'd do it too.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

1 minute ago, Hanrahan said:

That's how I'd do it too.

Me too.  I mean if I were a pilot, and knew shit.   JK thanks to you guys who do know shit contributing.  

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

6 minutes ago, Hanrahan said:

That's how I'd do it too.

I'd just pull that knob thingy and rotate that doohicky over there. 

 

I might not be a pilot, but I post on Surly, so I'm pretty sure I'm right.

[conVINCEd 21469]

3 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I'd just pull that knob thingy and rotate that doohicky over there. 

 

I might not be a pilot, but I post on Surly, so I'm pretty sure I'm right.

Grab a wrench and whack it a few times if turning it off and back on doesn’t fix it.

[Bevo 13576]

44 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

We don’t teach rudder usage at all in our upset training. We zero the angle of attack to unload the plane thereby placing zero stress on it, roll upright, get level within g limits, and then adjust power. 

Isn't unloading the plane synonymous with placing zero stress on it?

[DaysOff 7947]

I'd just pull that knob thingy and rotate that doohicky over there. 
 
I might not be a pilot, but I post on Surly, so I'm pretty sure I'm right.

Pretty close to an Airbus pilot from what I've observed on the jumpseat. Why are they pushing and pulling knobs!

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

14 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Isn't unloading the plane synonymous with placing zero stress on it?

Not everyone would immediately understand that so I was repetitive. 

[Ag with kids 581]

20 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Isn't unloading the plane synonymous with placing zero stress on it?

Hence the word "thereby"...

[nedtugent 28]

1 hour ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

There is no feedback in the French pieces of shit. The system is designed to react the same and provide the same feel in all regimes under normal law. DaysOff is correct. There is no need to touch the pedals at all in normal flight, but the AA pilot input several large rudder movements in short order and exceeded the structural limits of the plane. I doubt he was thinking about maneuvering speed at all, but the subsequent investigation revealed a misconception about certification limits under that speed, and also some pilot upset training issues dating back to primary instruction using rudder pedals to recover so as not to exacerbate the stall over the down deflected aileron with a higher angle of attack. Basic spin avoidance. 
 

We don’t teach rudder usage at all in our upset training. We zero the angle of attack to unload the plane thereby placing zero stress on it, roll upright, get level within g limits, and then adjust power. 

such as the air france crash - always thought that was a 'propagating NaN' w/ the frozen pitot tubes.....

scrambled part of the pilot feedback display and then all hades done break loose.

but that would have likely have happened before / since, so who knows.

 

 

[Ag with kids 581]

1 hour ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

We don’t teach rudder usage at all in our upset training. We zero the angle of attack to unload the plane thereby placing zero stress on it, roll upright, get level within g limits, and then adjust power. 

Yeah...getting all those fucking passengers out will lower the stress on it.

Maybe not on the passengers, though.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Ag with kids

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

13 minutes ago, nedtugent said:

such as the air france crash - always thought that was a 'propagating NaN' w/ the frozen pitot tubes.....

scrambled part of the pilot feedback display and then all hades done break loose.

but that would have likely have happened before / since, so who knows.

 

 

Combination of things including frozen pitot tubes and the flying pilot holding full aft stick nearly to the water. 

[Bevo 13576]

2 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Combination of things including frozen pitot tubes and the flying pilot holding full aft stick nearly to the water. 

To be fair, my tubes would be frozen too if I was about to crash and yes, I would also probably be holding my stick and kissing my ass goodbye.

[ConferenceRoom 6141]

Not everyone would immediately understand that so I was repetitive. 

I think we caught a boomer coming out of the barn. It could be a missile boat out of Polyarny.

[Surly Bevo 24908]

9 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

I think we caught a boomer coming out of the barn. It could be a missile boat out of Polyarny.

Y'know, I seen me a mermaid once. I even seen me a shark eat an octopus. But I ain't never seen no phantom Russian submarine.

[ClubWhatever 12139]

32 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

Y'know, I seen me a mermaid once. I even seen me a shark eat an octopus. But I ain't never seen no phantom Russian submarine.

*a

[StruggleBus 3922]

2 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

There is no feedback in the French pieces of shit. The system is designed to react the same and provide the same feel in all regimes under normal law. DaysOff is correct. There is no need to touch the pedals at all in normal flight, but the AA pilot input several large rudder movements in short order and exceeded the structural limits of the plane. I doubt he was thinking about maneuvering speed at all, but the subsequent investigation revealed a misconception about certification limits under that speed, and also some pilot upset training issues dating back to primary instruction using rudder pedals to recover so as not to exacerbate the stall over the down deflected aileron with a higher angle of attack. Basic spin avoidance. 
 

We don’t teach rudder usage at all in our upset training. We zero the angle of attack to unload the plane thereby placing zero stress on it, roll upright, get level within g limits, and then adjust power. 

[BevoSwag 272]

7 hours ago, DaysOff said:

There's no reason to touch the rudder pedals once airborne unless an engine quits.

That was the reason given when the American Airlines A300 crashed in NYC shortly after 9/11.  The co-pilot overacted to wake turbulence and caused stabilizer fail after too much rudder.  I think the design was changed shortly thereafter but it was totally 100% pilot error, not aircraft.

['stache 21813]

Did the black box survive to learn what happened? And if so, why don’t they make the whole plane out of the black box?

[52-80 19152]

10 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Did the black box survive to learn what happened? And if so, why don’t they make the whole plane out of the black box?

the black box was only there due to affirmative action

[Deej 76768]

18 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Did the black box survive to learn what happened? And if so, why don’t they make the whole plane out of the black box?

[Captainant 27661]

Per CNBC, Chinese state media says they found one of the two black boxes but it's "heavily damaged"

Edited March 23, 2022 by Captainant

[Rip76 4925]

18 hours ago, Hanrahan said:

That's how I'd do it too.

“You doin some stunt flyin’ or something.”

[DigglerontheHoof 21195]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

Did the black box survive to learn what happened? And if so, why don’t they make the whole plane out of the black box?

[Brisketexan 105123]

So.....the black box is actually orange.  BUT, I was told orange is the new black.  So the black box is still a black box.

Lots of ins and outs and what have yous.

[jkates 316]

Orange is the new black. But not in my apartment building. Kevin is the new black.

 

RIP, Norm.

[gmr548 16576]

My brother, former airline pilot and instructor’s take  

Does your brother work for Boeing by chance?

[Gatorubet 30234]

9 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

So.....the black box is actually orange.  BUT, I was told orange is the new black.  So the black box is still a black box.

Lots of ins and outs and what have yous.

Meh. Useless.  

It clearly says you can’t open it. 

[statsman 5462]

On 3/22/2022 at 3:53 PM, Bobby_Batronic said:

Combination of things including frozen pitot tubes and the flying pilot holding full aft stick nearly to the water. 

Transcript from noted Air France crash. 
 
https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a3115/what-really-happened-aboard-air-france-447-6611877/

TLDR: One of the three flight crew was a shitty pilot and he drove that fucker down. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

5 minutes ago, statsman said:

Transcript from noted Air France crash. 
 
https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a3115/what-really-happened-aboard-air-france-447-6611877/

TLDR: One of the three flight crew was a shitty pilot and he drove that fucker down. 

Partly. They were in a panic, and there were some issues with how stall recoveries were taught based on Airbus flight law logic, not understanding what law they were in or how much excess thrust is available at altitude. Also, since the sticks move independently of one another neither the other pilot or CA knew he was holding full aft stick until he mentioned it if memory serves. 

[DalTxHornFan 3101]

I've read several long stories about that AF crash.  Sad story. 

Aviate. Navigate. Communicate.

 

[Deej 76768]

6 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Aviate. Navigate. Communicate.

[SuperSport 1333]

39 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

I've read several long stories about that AF crash.  Sad story. 

Aviate. Navigate. Communicate.

 

Though ironically, lack of communication (among the flight crew) was the primary factor that ultimately allowed that crash to occur.

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

1 hour ago, gmr548 said:

Does your brother work for Boeing by chance?

No.  captain for an American regional. Also trained guys in the simulator for a time. 

[DalTxHornFan 3101]

9 minutes ago, SuperSport said:

Though ironically, lack of communication (among the flight crew) was the primary factor that ultimately allowed that crash to occur.

If any of them would have pointed the nose down and regained flight control (Aviate) -- none of us would be talking about them now.

[Pato del Muerto 52492]

13 hours ago, 'stache said:

Did the black box survive to learn what happened? And if so, why don’t they make the whole plane out of the black box?

Since this is the third time this joke has been posted on this thread, I’d like to now point out that it’s not the plane that needs to be made of the black box but the people inside it. Otherwise you just have a black (orange) plane full of goo. 

[gmr548 16576]

No.  captain for an American regional. Also trained guys in the simulator for a time. 

It was tongue in cheek. I saw you said pilot and instructor. The whole “Max was a foreign pilots issue” was the company line from Boeing and it’s well documented that said excuse is somewhere between disingenuous at best and total horseshit at worst.

[DalTxHornFan 3101]

I just re-read this piece about AF 447:

https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-long-way-down-the-crash-of-air-france-flight-447-8a7678c37982

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

8 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

It was tongue in cheek. I saw you said pilot and instructor. The whole “Max was a foreign pilots issue” was the company line from Boeing and it’s well documented that said excuse is somewhere between disingenuous at best and total horseshit at worst.

I have no idea. I didn’t even bring up Max (and have no idea why he did) and have literally zero idea what either he is talking about nor what you are talking about, so… the only thing I was interested in was this particular incident and if he thought it was intentional or not. Thought people here might be interested (and it matches what other pilots on here seem to say- which I would have no idea of knowing if they are right or not). 
I’m also pretty sure that he knows way more about flying an airplane than you do and way less than some other people do. I’m not particularly interested in having a super star nba player coach my team, nor a baseball HOF’er as my general manager as being in an industry doesn’t make you an expert in all the goings on in said industry, but in a scenario where I know nothing and someone else knows something I’m not against asking for their POV. 
And with that I will bow out of this conversation as I know less than nothing about any of this shit and thought I’d pass along something from someone the board might be interested in. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Wulaw Horn

[Updawg 2266]

Negative ghost rider. You will either live or crash and burn in this thread

[Pato del Muerto 52492]

1 hour ago, DalTxHornFan said:

I just re-read this piece about AF 447:

https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-long-way-down-the-crash-of-air-france-flight-447-8a7678c37982

Damn that’s rough. 
 

though if my first inclination is that if you are nose up and full power but descending  then you have stalled happens to be the correct one, and my instinct to nose down is the correct one, then it’s a shame that two pilots didn’t react that way.  Chaotic environment to say the least, and it sounds like the flight software ended up working against them. 
also

i haven’t had a bunch of sim time training me to full throttle and nose up to prevent a stall. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Pato del Muerto

[Wulaw Horn 19069]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/magazine/boeing-737-max-crashes.html
 

incredibly long New York Times feature that basically concludes these crews were absolutely the morons my brother contended they were, that this problem should have never lead to any crashes if the crew in question had even the slightest bit of airmanship, and Boeing made a patch of a design to fix a flaw that they didn’t tell anyone about because they literally didn’t comprehend the incompetence that exists in various human endeavors, but was likely incredibly reckless on light of what they knew about how their customers were operating their airlines. Article is like a 30 minute read. Pretty interesting anatomy of a bunch of little things that all had to pile on top of each other to create a tragedy. 

[DalTxHornFan 3101]

6 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Damn that’s rough. 
 

though if my first inclination is that if you are nose up and full power but defending then you have stalled happens to be the correct one, and my instinct to nose down is the correct one, then it’s a shame that two pilots didn’t react that way.  Chaotic environment to say the least, and it sounds like the flight software ended up working against them. 

Aviate.  What makes a plane fly?  Velocity.  Lift.  Sad that these well-trained people lost sight of that.

[austingirl 2191]

10 hours ago, DalTxHornFan said:

I just re-read this piece about AF 447:

https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-long-way-down-the-crash-of-air-france-flight-447-8a7678c37982

This made me nauseated. The annotated transcript is incredible, especially where it documents the sheer human error that contributed to the crash. I didn't fly till I was 18 and had a couple of bad experiences early on, and until a couple of years ago I needed Xanax every time I flew. Whenever we hit turbulence I have to run through a list of reminders in my head to stay calm - the plane is more than equipped to handle bumps, this is really common, I'm more likely to die in a car crash, we'll be back to smooth skies in a few minutes, the flight crew is skilled and knows exactly what they're doing, etc. Obviously shit happens and pilots are human, but reading that play-by-play in stark detail is a tough reminder that sometimes things just go wrong.

I'm going to Germany this summer on an A330. Probably gonna have to renew that Xanax prescription.

Edited March 24, 2022 by austingirl

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

9 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

they literally didn’t comprehend the incompetence that exists in various human endeavors,

There's a reason they put "do not eat" on those silicone / charcoal packages they use to reduce humidity in packaging.