Boeing 737 carrying 132 passengers crashes in China

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

Second thought, emergency descent or in controlled dive, structural damage in the arrest thereof followed by structural failure and final plummet. 

[crash_davis 23114]

maybe the chinese were practicing for this stunt but taking it next level to passenger jets?

https://www.technobeastt.com/2022/03/two-pilots-will-jump-out-in-mid-air-at_19.html

On April 25, two pilots, Luke Aikins and Andy Farrington will jump out of their single-seater aircraft and attempt to switch planes as they plummet towards the Earth, energy drink company, Red Bull has announced on its website.

Red Bull is no stranger to such daring attempts. Rather the company prides itself in supporting adventurers who want to achieve extraordinary feats. Whether it is flying planes inside tunnels or jumping in and out of a volcano with nothing but a wingsuit, Red Bull is at forefront of supporting these daredevils and next month is no different. 

[McCroskey 1505]

56 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Possible emergency descent, level off and pilots overcome by smoke, fumes or other issue?

30k/minute drop seems like one hell of an emergency descent.  What is ordinarily the maximum limits a pilot would take on their own?  At some point the risks from too steep a descent have to become higher than whatever emergency you are facing, no?

[gsoda3 3281]

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

When I was a kid, my family and I were going from Orlando to Austin and we hit really bad turbulence. It was pretty much like a roller coaster where I would lose my stomach as we dropped. The stewardess was crying as were a decent number of passengers. There was an incredible amount of flex in the wings as this was going on. I assume modern electronics keeps airplanes from hitting that kind of weather now. But, could those huge drops cause a wing to snap.

 

43 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

I assume this was a question and the answer is no, those drops could not cause a wing to snap.  The amount of flex in the wings prior to a snap is almost unbelievable.  The 787s can (almost?) touch tips they have so much flex.  

if you google "airplane wing test video" you'll get a pretty cool look into the process.  adding to what babysdaddy said, these wings have incredible flex built into them.  the dreamliner for example can flex over 20 feet per wing which while isn't completely verticle puts them at like a 75% angle or something ridiculous like that.

[DalTxHornFan 3116]

4 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Second thought, emergency descent or in controlled dive, structural damage in the arrest thereof followed by structural failure and final plummet. 

I get that, but the plane looked stable in that final video.  Any missing parts would have resulted in spinning and such, it would seem.

[RPM 26342]

Just now, Bobby_Batronic said:

Second thought, emergency descent or in controlled dive, structural damage in the arrest thereof followed by structural failure and final plummet. 

Emergency descent, configure max drag gear, flaps, slats... everything goes sideways. I didn't see any gear down in the videos. This is either a massive systems failure or suicide.

[McCroskey 1505]

40 minutes ago, Paper_jam said:

Black boxes are tough as shit but I'd be really surprised if they made it through this impact. Hope I'm wrong because that data/voice would be key to the investigation.

 

If the pictures of the larger pieces of debris are legit from today's crash, then the ground appears to have been soft enough to absorb some of that impact and not cause a complete disintegration, which means the boxes should be recoverable and usable to the investigation.

 

[C-Man 27254]

17 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Damn. That was a tough read. I'll just walk from now on.

Did you watch the video on the Wiki link? Fucking nightmare fuel.

[Bevo 13597]

5 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

 

if you google "airplane wing test video" you'll get a pretty cool look into the process.  adding to what babysdaddy said, these wings have incredible flex built into them.  the dreamliner for example can flex over 20 feet per wing which while isn't completely verticle puts them at like a 75% angle or something ridiculous like that.

Thanks. I've been on lots of scary flights. Large (something like 15 seat) float plane where the engines shut off mid flight, DC10 that had the tail jolt sideways from Newark at takeoff where they closed the airport immediately afterwards (JFK and LaGuardia were already closed), but that flight from Orlando to Atlanta (not Austin) was the only one where the stewardess actually cried. I thought it was fun losing my stomach but my brother cried. It would be interesting to know in retrospect how far we were falling in the turbulence. The wings were probably at about 30 degrees from parallel each time we went from fall to stable air.

[dcar00 14347]

6 minutes ago, RPM said:

Emergency descent, configure max drag gear, flaps, slats... everything goes sideways. I didn't see any gear down in the videos. This is either a massive systems failure or suicide.

the hard over rudder fail theory is possible although there haven't been any 737 rudder accidents since they retrofitted them all after the 1994 incident referenced upthread.

gonna be interesting since it happened in China.  they aren't going to want it to be pilot "error".

[McCroskey 1505]

Strong convective winds reported in that area a few hours before the crash.   What kind of gust or anomaly would it take to cause that kind of drop?

[Shaggy3.0 1695]

3 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Thanks. I've been on lots of scary flights. Large (something like 15 seat) float plane where the engines shut off mid flight, DC10 that had the tail jolt sideways from Newark at takeoff where they closed the airport immediately afterwards (JFK and LaGuardia were already closed), but that flight from Orlando to Atlanta (not Austin) was the only one where the stewardess actually cried. I thought it was fun losing my stomach but my brother cried. It would be interesting to know in retrospect how far we were falling in the turbulence. The wings were probably at about 30 degrees from parallel each time we went from fall to stable air.

Can you post any future flight plans?  I'll be sure to schedule a full day after your departure.

[Steel Shank 9430]

if you google "airplane wing test video" you'll get a pretty cool look into the process.  adding to what babysdaddy said, these wings have incredible flex built into them.  the dreamliner for example can flex over 20 feet per wing which while isn't completely verticle puts them at like a 75% angle or something ridiculous like that.

Sounds like my Johnson - Coach Johnson.

[83Horn 1647]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

I’m literally staring at a 737-800 I’m about to board in 10 minutes. 

I'll assume you can take comfort in the fact that the plane you're boarding isn't operated and maintained by Chinese crews...unless you're in China, in which case, good luck, Dude.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

24 minutes ago, RPM said:

Emergency descent, configure max drag gear, flaps, slats... everything goes sideways. I didn't see any gear down in the videos. This is either a massive systems failure or suicide.

Thanks to auto correct my original thought was corrected from uncontrollable dive to in controlled. 
 

Btw, in the bus we don’t have everything hanging out. Just full boards which may or may not require the autopilot to be off. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

35 minutes ago, McCroskey said:

30k/minute drop seems like one hell of an emergency descent.  What is ordinarily the maximum limits a pilot would take on their own?  At some point the risks from too steep a descent have to become higher than whatever emergency you are facing, no?

Didn’t see the initial descent rate. That’s extreme. 
 

31 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

I get that, but the plane looked stable in that final video.  Any missing parts would have resulted in spinning and such, it would seem.

Maybe. I would suspect that at high speed things are stabilized and anything not playing along departs the aircraft. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

22 minutes ago, McCroskey said:

Strong convective winds reported in that area a few hours before the crash.   What kind of gust or anomaly would it take to cause that kind of drop?

It's rarely the event but the pilot's reaction to the event that causes something like this. Not blaming the pilot, but having read up on a few of the major disasters, it's usually something like "they pulled up, causing a stall, making the situation worse"

[Ghost of LL 15539]

28 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

the hard over rudder fail theory is possible although there haven't been any 737 rudder accidents since they retrofitted them all after the 1994 incident referenced upthread.

gonna be interesting since it happened in China.  they aren't going to want it to be pilot "error".

And not just that--US Air 427 was a 737-300.  This was a 738, which shouldn't have that issue.  So I really don't think that's what it is.  It's just that the flight characteristics shown in that dash cam and the debris field were really reminiscent of that crash.

[Zepol87 9191]

2 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

I’m literally staring at a 737-800 I’m about to board in 10 minutes. 

Lol just boarded one. Don't recommend watching the videos on the plane. 

[ABSR 5322]

2 hours ago, dcar00 said:

possibility the co-pilot trying to wrestle it away for a short period from a suicide pilot.

that video looks like a kamazie pilot.  

could be a fire that destroyed controls like the JetBlue deal in Florida.  weird

Kind of agree.  Engine loss or many other issues at least allows for limited gliding.  A catastrophic loss to something critical to flight control would lead to spinning, tumbling or non-standard flight movements.   The video looked like the aircraft had stable flight but someone was flying it into the ground.

[wild_turkey 3182]

The pictures of the crash site are unbelievable.

[Herbie Hancock 7370]

There’s plenty of debris, but it’s under the dirt.

[nedtugent 28]

3 hours ago, freyguy said:

Weren't the previous 737 crashes due to a defect in the auto pilot software?

737 max.  was this a max?

 

 

[DalTxHornFan 3116]

1 minute ago, nedtugent said:

737 max.  was this a max?

 

 

No. It was a 737-800.

Edited March 21, 2022 by DalTxHornFan

[Borachio 417]

I went to the Flight 93 memorial after the West Virginia game in November.  When that plane hit the ground it was like it vaporized, there was just a little debris and a crater left. 

The first responders on the scene were confused as there was really no evidence of an actual plane there.   Scary stuff.   

Great memorial by the way. 

[bangkok 89]

likely pilot error here, rather than suicide mission.

and part of that is due to chinese culture - immense shame brought on one's family, and even the nation at large if that were the case. 

so we'd have to expect this suicide act was also one intended to bring shame on family and china.. unlikely.

mechanical failure is plausible but also unlikely considering the safety records of the aircraft - and that the pilots should be trained to handle any mechanical issues.

the flight path is strange and horrific for the victims.

most common cause of most crashes: pilot error.

 

[JMFP 1120]

1 hour ago, Steel Shank said:

Sounds like my Johnson - Coach Johnson.

[dcar00 14347]

10 minutes ago, bangkok said:

 

most common cause of most crashes: pilot error.

 

this message brought to you by Big Air

[TornACL 7722]

3 hours ago, Bevo said:

But, could those huge drops cause a wing to snap.

No.

The flexing you see on the wings during bad weather are a good thing. If they didn't flex they would snap.

Go watch the wing stress tests at Boeing,AB, etc. It's unbelievable how much the wings can flex before failing.

[Ag with kids 581]

56 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

No. It was a 737-800.

We better not find out the 738 ALSO had an MCAS on it...

[Elvis 3374]

4 hours ago, RPM said:

Wrong movie

Except

for the crashing part. No wait. They both crashed. One of them was ……

 

 

 

 

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13522]

Are pilot to air traffic control communications unencrypted in China? I would think that with today's tech, someone is finding methods to record everything across the world if only to sell the recording to news agencies when crashes occur.

[Bevo 13597]

27 minutes ago, bangkok said:

most common cause of most crashes: pilot error.

 

More specifically, Bangkok - or stewardess sitting on the thrust and throttle.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

12 minutes ago, Bevo said:

More specifically, Bangkok - or stewardess sitting on the thrust and throttle.

[elfenix 34331]

3 hours ago, McCroskey said:

30k/minute drop seems like one hell of an emergency descent.  What is ordinarily the maximum limits a pilot would take on their own?  At some point the risks from too steep a descent have to become higher than whatever emergency you are facing, no?

egypt air 990 went into a 38k/minute dive when the f.o. decided to yeet everyone into the atlantic. 

[Hermanator 7142]

4 hours ago, crash_davis said:

i thought the big commercial jets don't glide. they either fly or without engine drop like we saw. 

i don't know shit tho.

User name doesn't check out

[crash_davis 23114]

2 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

User name doesn't check out

all i know is anything that travels far ougtha have a damn stewardess on it.

[Gatorubet 30294]

… How does she intend to live when she's in far Cathay?

Burning airlines give you so much more…

[DaysOff 7969]

If I was a suicidal pilot, it feels like easing it into a hillside would be a better play than a nose dive. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1771

Or you could put your foot on the yoke and go vertical.

[DaysOff 7969]

Second thought, emergency descent or in controlled dive, structural damage in the arrest thereof followed by structural failure and final plummet. 

That what take a special kind of stupid even by Asian airline standards. The empennage fell off (doubtful) or suicide.

[DaysOff 7969]

Thanks to auto correct my original thought was corrected from uncontrollable dive to in controlled. 
 
Btw, in the bus we don’t have everything hanging out. Just full boards which may or may not require the autopilot to be off. 

Same in 737. Just speedbrake at 320 knots UNLESS structural damage is suspected.

[DalTxHornFan 3116]

25 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1771

Or you could put your foot on the yoke and go vertical.

The plane was estimated to have crashed slightly faster than the speed of sound, around 770 mph (1,240 km/h), disintegrating instantly. Based on the deformation of the titanium black box data recorder case, the aircraft experienced a deceleration of 5,000 times the force of gravity (G-force) when it hit the ground. It was traveling around a 70° angle toward the south. The plane struck a rocky hillside, leaving a crater less than 2 ft (0.6 m) deep and 4 ft (1.2 m) across. Only 11 of the passengers were ever identified

Talk about going out with a bang.

[SquishMitten 10425]

5 hours ago, crash_davis said:

planes aren't like celebrity deaths. they don't happen in pairs or threesomes. 

but i guess there's always a first.

I wouldn't mind my death being in a threesome

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

35 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

That what take a special kind of stupid even by Asian airline standards. The empennage fell off (doubtful) or suicide.

Stupid? Yes. But I could see it in a panic situation. Our upset training shows just how easy it is to over stress the plane once you get it unloaded and right side up if you pull too hard. The different between a nice 2 G recovery and snapping something off isn’t much. I’m sure you’ve seen the same  

But I stated that before seeing the vertical speeds involved. I would lean toward suicide at the moment. 

[ClubWhatever 12156]

3 hours ago, Herbie Hancock said:

There’s plenty of debris, but it’s under the dirt.

Yes.  In a gazillion mostly unidentifiable pieces.  There will be a few intact chunks like the landing gear and turbine shafts.   The Ethiopian Max black box data survived a similar crash. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

34 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

I wouldn't mind my death being in a threesome

[52-80 19234]

6 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

I’m literally staring at a 737-800 I’m about to board in 10 minutes. 

if it aint airbus i aint there bud

[ClubWhatever 12156]

4 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Second thought, emergency descent or in controlled dive, structural damage in the arrest thereof followed by structural failure and final plummet. 

That’s basically what I think.  There are pieces of airfoil scattered away from the main crater. Those would have broken off during the many-G pull-up attempt.

[bschoolprof 6271]

1 hour ago, DaysOff said:

Same in 737. Just speedbrake at 320 knots UNLESS structural damage is suspected.

[HornOnTheBayou 8945]

4 hours ago, bangkok said:

most common cause of most crashes: pilot error.

or hitting the ground