Band of Brothers

[JohnRedHorn 29]

I think this current generation of kids is the first in a long time, maybe over 100 years, to not have things better than their parents. Being a kid now has to be worse than being one in the 80s and 90s for most Americans. The future 30 year outlook financially for the country is a lot worse now than it was in 1990 as well. 

[Carl Spackler 3479]

1 hour ago, JohnRedHorn said:

Go tell people like Carlos Hathcock that they arent as good as WW2 vets. 

That would be a neat trick given that Hathcock has been dead nearly 20 years. 

But I understand (and agree with) your points.

[Macanudo 12974]

1 hour ago, JohnRedHorn said:

a fictionalized cinema account of a small handful of them. 

Barely fictionalized.  And while we venerate Easy Company, there were dozens upon dozens of companies just like them.   Go ask the Marines on Guadalcanal.   Or the soldiers of the 1st Infantry Division.   Or troopers from the 2nd Armored.  Or....   Yeah, small handful my ass.

[dcbc 14464]

Read the other day that, as of 2016, there were about 650,000 American WWII veterans left, and we are losing them at a rate of about 327 per day.  If you know one, talk to him/her.  Get them to tell you some stories.  Be a vessel for their history.  As a guy in his 40s, it's strange to me that we're losing eyewitnesses to such a huge event in our history.  Fact of life, I know.  But strange. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by dcbc

[TwiceHorn 31434]

9 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I for one am personally, very happy at that outcome.

 I was raised by those very folks who lived thru the Great Depression, and it made me a bit more aware of just how much better I had it as a kid than they did when they were coming up.  

Those were some tough, resourceful, self sufficient people. 

Actually, same here.  And my parents were the antithesis of indulgent.  But generationally speaking, they raised a bunch of fucking brats.

[TwiceHorn 31434]

3 hours ago, Parliament said:

The Germans thought we had a LOT more people there than we actually did, and they lacked fuel for their tanks. I always assumed that attack and retreat was intended as a diversion for the real attack somewhere else.

Why did the American fighters shoot at them? Musta thought they were Krauts. Fog of war and such.

A major reason the Bulge was such a near thing is that the weather was so bad that air support was largely unavailable   A break in the weather enabled air support, or effective air support and helped turn the tide.

[HouTex 1866]

Read the other day that, as of 2016, there were about 650,000 American WWII veterans left, and we are losing them at a rate of about 327 per day.  If you know one, talk to him/her.  Get them to tell you some stories.  Be a vessel for their history.  As a guy in his 40s, it's strange to me that we're losing eyewitnesses to such a huge event in our history.  Fact of life, I know.  But strange. 

It's not strange at all. I tried to get my Godfather to open up about his experience. He fought on the beach at Anzio. It was so horrific that he couldn't talk about it. He died in the early 90's and I wish he could have opened up about it. My father (his good friend) later told me that during an artillery barrage he was running on the beach with a fellow soldier and a shell exploded right next to him. His friend was blown apart. It was too hard for him to talk about his experience. The scene in BOB when Buck Compton sees his friends hit by the artillery shell and he loses it makes a lot of sense to me.

This is why Ambrose did such a great job. He was able to get the men to talk about their experience.

[JohnRedHorn 29]

6 hours ago, Macanudo said:

Barely fictionalized.  And while we venerate Easy Company, there were dozens upon dozens of companies just like them.   Go ask the Marines on Guadalcanal.   Or the soldiers of the 1st Infantry Division.   Or troopers from the 2nd Armored.  Or....   Yeah, small handful my ass.

First, it's all based on a book written nearly 50 years after the fact based on stories by a bunch of brave men who are trying to remember details at an advanced age. There's a reason human eye witness testimony is almost always a shoddy piece of evidence in a trial. They aren't lying, but over the years stories change and a more favorable version of the events tends to form as time passes. They couldn't even all agree on Sobel. Some of E company saw him as worthless while others said they wouldn't be alive today if he hadn't been so hard and demanding of them at that time. 

 Also, the guy I quoted was making his wild assumption based on this movie which only followed this small handful of men. I know there were tons of great stories of heroism to be told but this account didnt recall them. 

Point is people then were a mix of good, bad, brave, cowardly, determined, and lazy just like people of every generation since. Human nature is to endulge in a reverence for fictionalized nostalgia as more snd more time passes. That's why there are always the "good ol' days" which in many instances weren't always so good.

[Turkleton 145]

I love the smirk Nix gives Winter after he makes Sobel salute him. Vindication.

 

[Macanudo 12974]

6 hours ago, JohnRedHorn said:

First, it's all based on a book written nearly 50 years after the fact based on stories by a bunch of brave men who are trying to remember details at an advanced age. There's a reason human eye witness testimony is almost always a shoddy piece of evidence in a trial. They aren't lying, but over the years stories change and a more favorable version of the events tends to form as time passes. They couldn't even all agree on Sobel. Some of E company saw him as worthless while others said they wouldn't be alive today if he hadn't been so hard and demanding of them at that time. 

 Also, the guy I quoted was making his wild assumption based on this movie which only followed this small handful of men. I know there were tons of great stories of heroism to be told but this account didnt recall them. 

Point is people then were a mix of good, bad, brave, cowardly, determined, and lazy just like people of every generation since. Human nature is to endulge in a reverence for fictionalized nostalgia as more snd more time passes. That's why there are always the "good ol' days" which in many instances weren't always so good.

And you don't think Amborse went and read reports and other source material to back up all the shit that was portrayed.   I understand your point but it's pretty clear that this was not completely made up bull shit.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Macanudo said:

And you don't think Amborse went and read reports and other source material to back up all the shit that was portrayed.   I understand your point but it's pretty clear that this was not completely made up bull shit.

I'd imagine he definitely reviewed action reports to help create a generally accurate narrative.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Turkleton said:

I love the smirk Nix gives Winter after he makes Sobel salute him. Vindication.

 

That subtle stuff is what makes BoB so awesome. It captures so many nuances about life in the military that isn’t in the typical war movie.

The part when Winters tells them he’s not a Quaker might be my favorite scene in the whole series. It is an incredible depiction of how geat leaders influence their teams without being demeaning or a dick...or the anti-Sobel.  The surprise to his men wasn’t Winters’ faith, but rather, how the hell did he even know they were questioning its persuasion.  He blew their minds, motivated them, and provided needed humor in one fell swoop.

Edited June 1, 2018 by slorch

[BearSchlong 8082]

Read the other day that, as of 2016, there were about 650,000 American WWII veterans left, and we are losing them at a rate of about 327 per day.  If you know one, talk to him/her.  Get them to tell you some stories.  Be a vessel for their history.  As a guy in his 40s, it's strange to me that we're losing eyewitnesses to such a huge event in our history.  Fact of life, I know.  But strange. 

From time to time I'll sit down with my late step grandfathers flying logbook, he was a B17 captain. DFC, 51 missions. I'm sure some of those were optional as most crews flew 35 or so IIRC.

Blows me away, reading where he bombed and what he bombed (German heavy industry) and describing the flak, fighters, etc. And then all of a sudden his entries switch from a heavy bomber to a small civil aircraft for the next few hundred postwar trips across the flyover states.

All in the same, impeccable meticulous handwriting. Prewar he was an architecture grad from TAMU, '39.

[baboso 6054]

The lessons in leadership that Winters gives are profound, like when he was chewing Buck Compton out for gambling with the troops:

Winters: You were gambling, Buck.

Buck: So what? Soldiers do that. I don't deserve a reprimand for it.

Winters: What if you'd won?

Buck: What?

Winters: What if you'd won? Never put yourself in a position where you can take from these men.

[Macanudo 12974]

30 minutes ago, baboso said:

The lessons in leadership that Winters gives are profound, like when he was chewing Buck Compton out for gambling with the troops:

Winters: You were gambling, Buck.

Buck: So what? Soldiers do that. I don't deserve a reprimand for it.

Winters: What if you'd won?

Buck: What?

Winters: What if you'd won? Never put yourself in a position where you can take from these men.

I concur.   That scene has always stuck with me.   It's how I try work with my team and we're just paper pushing office workers.   Made a big impact on how I work with others.

[ABSR 5308]

37 minutes ago, BearSchlong said:

From time to time I'll sit down with my late step grandfathers flying logbook, he was a B17 captain. DFC, 51 missions. I'm sure some of those were optional as most crews flew 35 or so IIRC.

Blows me away, reading where he bombed and what he bombed (German heavy industry) and describing the flak, fighters, etc. And then all of a sudden his entries switch from a heavy bomber to a small civil aircraft for the next few hundred postwar trips across the flyover states.

All in the same, impeccable meticulous handwriting. Prewar he was an architecture grad from TAMU, '39.

My Wife's Grandfather was a Navigator on B-17's in WW2.  We realized this when a picture and citation letter were found years later and in the citation it stated he had flown 40+ missions.  Like you I thought there was a 30 or 35 mission requirement and then you got sent home for good.  Apparently that was the case earlier in the war, but a new General was put in charge and he cancelled that policy so there was no longer a magic number to be done and go home.  He was not loved.

[dcbc 14464]

12 hours ago, HouTex said:

It's not strange at all. I tried to get my Godfather to open up about his experience. He fought on the beach at Anzio. It was so horrific that he couldn't talk about it. He died in the early 90's and I wish he could have opened up about it. My father (his good friend) later told me that during an artillery barrage he was running on the beach with a fellow soldier and a shell exploded right next to him. His friend was blown apart. It was too hard for him to talk about his experience. The scene in BOB when Buck Compton sees his friends hit by the artillery shell and he loses it makes a lot of sense to me.

This is why Ambrose did such a great job. He was able to get the men to talk about their experience.

I have to imagine that I wouldn't want to talk about the horrors of war either.  My father-in-law has a few stories he tells about Vietnam, but they're the few good ones.  He never talks about the other side of the coin.

[dcbc 14464]

2 hours ago, BearSchlong said:

From time to time I'll sit down with my late step grandfathers flying logbook, he was a B17 captain. DFC, 51 missions. I'm sure some of those were optional as most crews flew 35 or so IIRC.

Blows me away, reading where he bombed and what he bombed (German heavy industry) and describing the flak, fighters, etc. And then all of a sudden his entries switch from a heavy bomber to a small civil aircraft for the next few hundred postwar trips across the flyover states.

All in the same, impeccable meticulous handwriting. Prewar he was an architecture grad from TAMU, '39.

My dad was born in 1910.  He wanted to join the air corps when the US declared war, but his business partners convinced him that he was better off staying here and building petroleum plants in support of the war effort.  So he stayed stateside and spent his weekends flying officers over flyover country.  I need to check his logbooks, which I found several years back and have sitting with my own brief logbook in a drawer at home.

/edit.  Lots of cool stuff in those log books, including first solo 08-18-1940.  Found his pilots license with lots of medical exam cards, radio operator cards, and a good luck $2 bill from 1953.

Edited June 1, 2018 by dcbc

[Homercles 10205]

That subtle stuff is what makes BoB so awesome. It captures so many nuances about life in the military that isn’t in the typical war movie.
The part when Winters tells them he’s not a Quaker might be my favorite scene in the whole series. It is an incredible depiction of how geat leaders influence their teams without being demeaning or a dick...or the anti-Sobel.  The surprise to hhis men wasn’t Winters’ faith, but rather, how the hell did he even know they were questioning its persuasion.  He blew their minds, motivated them, and provided needed humor in one fell swoop.

“It’s certainly been a day of firsts. Don’t you agree, sergeant?”

I think him taking a drink with Guarnere is just as meaningful.

Overall I don’t remember that, or some other character building interactions like that in the book...just goes to show how difficult it is and how effectively the job was done by the screenwriters. Buck is definitely called out in the book as being a little too friendly with the enlisted men.

[fellside 1112]

While this is my favorite show of all time, it's documented that Ambrose fabricated some of his writings and intentionally claimed some things that were proven to be false. 

Thankfully it's mainly small stuff with Band of Brothers, but it's much larger stuff with some of his other work.

[Macanudo 12974]

18 minutes ago, fellside said:

While this is my favorite show of all time, it's documented that Ambrose fabricated some of his writings and intentionally claimed some things that were proven to be false. 

Thankfully it's mainly small stuff with Band of Brothers, but it's much larger stuff with some of his other work.

He plagiarized.  

[Eastwood 4394]

16 hours ago, dcbc said:

Read the other day that, as of 2016, there were about 650,000 American WWII veterans left, and we are losing them at a rate of about 327 per day.  If you know one, talk to him/her.  Get them to tell you some stories.  Be a vessel for their history.  As a guy in his 40s, it's strange to me that we're losing eyewitnesses to such a huge event in our history.  Fact of life, I know.  But strange. 

Wife dragged me to North Loop because she wanted to hit all the resale shops there. I broke away and plopped down into the Ironhorse Bar to watch Johnny beat Bama back in 2012. I'm sitting at the bar and look to my left and there was a very elderly man wearing a WW2 vet hat. I eventually was able to catch the front of it and low and behold, he was a Marine who survived Guadalcanal. I picked up his tab and made sure he drank for free the rest of the game. He was drinking Lonestar, for what it's worth.

Also, in the middle of nowhere about 40 miles from College Station, there is a Pearl Harbor survivor that I got to meet. Enlisted in June of 1941 and thought he hit the lottery when he got stationed in Hawaii. He was assigned to the Phoenix and the rest is history.

My grandfather was in Operation Husky and possibly D-Day as part of the 1st Infantry. He wouldn't talk about it, but I had always been told he took part in the landings on Omaha Beach. I know he took shrapnel in his leg in Sicily, but that usually didn't get you a ticket home back then. Still, I'm not sure how many served in both the invasion of Sicily and Normandy. Either way, I'm thankful to have met all three.

[Deej 76750]

My ex-wife's grandmother's 2nd husband fought at Guadalcanal. He would never talk about it. His story, though, made the romantic bits in "The Pacific" hit home though. After being wounded, he spent his recovery time in New Zealand and fell in love with my ex's grandmother. He shipped out, and they never saw each other again, until 40 years later. Both had been married, had families, and eventually lost their spouses. Someone on her side of the family tracked him down and they reunited, marrying soon after. They were married until cancer took him in the late 90's. She's still around and in her 90's.

[4HE 156]

On 5/29/2018 at 3:53 PM, HouTex said:

Never lost to ou.

He did own ou 

[WhatTheBuck 28771]

14 hours ago, Deej said:

My ex-wife's grandmother's 2nd husband fought at Guadalcanal. He would never talk about it. His story, though, made the romantic bits in "The Pacific" hit home though. After being wounded, he spent his recovery time in New Zealand and fell in love with my ex's grandmother. He shipped out, and they never saw each other again, until 40 years later. Both had been married, had families, and eventually lost their spouses. Someone on her side of the family tracked him down and they reunited, marrying soon after. They were married until cancer took him in the late 90's. She's still around and in her 90's.

That's a much better story than the one told in the shore leave episode of The Pacific. 

[Hate 20106]

My ex-wife's grandmother's 2nd husbandfought at Guadalcanal. He would never talk about it. His story, though, made the romantic bits in "The Pacific" hit home though. After being wounded, he spent his recovery time in New Zealand and fell in love with my ex's grandmother. He shipped out, and they never saw each other again, until 40 years later. Both had been married, had families, and eventually lost their spouses. Someone on her side of the family tracked him down and they reunited, marrying soon after. They were married until cancer took him in the late 90's. She's still around and in her 90's.

Thanks Simone.

[Ben Tobin 374]

Do the books ever make mention of what happened with the GI that killed those 4 guys?  

[Celery Man 20929]

Spiers?  Career military guy, wound up working in the Pentagon, died in the 2000s.

[Upgrayedd 5810]

17 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Spiers?  Career military guy, wound up working in the Pentagon, died in the 2000s.

Ran Spandau prison post-war if memory serves me correctly

[Parliament 14227]

And I think he got in a bit of trouble for being an asshole after the war? NTTAWWT.

He moved to Wolf Point, MT (BFE) when he retired.

[Hate 20106]

You can get into trouble for being an asshole?

[Upgrayedd 5810]

This site is in trouble 

[Ben Tobin 374]

2 hours ago, Ben Tobin said:

Do the books ever make mention of what happened with the GI that killed those 4 guys?  

 

1 hour ago, Celery Man said:

Spiers?  Career military guy, wound up working in the Pentagon, died in the 2000s.

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. The drunk soldier that killed the Brits over their gas. He then shoots one of Easy Co.  Spiers orders him caught alive, then orders the MPs handle it after holding a gun to his head. 

[Carl Spackler 3479]

2 hours ago, Ben Tobin said:

 

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. The drunk soldier that killed the Brits over their gas. He then shoots one of Easy Co.  Spiers orders him caught alive, then orders the MPs handle it after holding a gun to his head. 

I was curious about that when I saw BoB the first time it aired.  I did some digging around on the interwebs and it appears the drunken soldier was some scumbag named Floyd W. Craver, who (miraculously) was not put to death for his depradations in Austria.  He racked up a long list of arrests and convictions for DUI after he got back to the States as well.  

 

 

[Sandman 3403]

I thought it was bad when I tear up watching the show but now I'm tearing up just reading about the show. Fuck.

[Chico_SA 521]

Was reading about Bobby Kennedy today.  Didn't realize that Buck Compton was the lead Prosecutor against Sirhan Sirhan.  Been a while since I watched it so I forgot if they mentioned that at the end .

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Chico_SA

[Celery Man 20929]

Bastogne episode coming up.  That's a long hour.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 hours ago, Celery Man said:

Bastogne episode coming up.  That's a long hour.

Just think how long it felt for them.

[ousuxndallas 65]

These are pictures from my trip to Bastogne back in 2015. The woods adjacent to Foy still hold the foxholes dug by E Company. A monument is erected nearby.

[Parliament 14227]

-28C is -18F.  God damn.

[SuckitKevin 920]

My grandfather drove an M4 tractor onto Okinawa in WW2. I guess he was chosen because he was a farm boy and knew how to operate heavy equipment. He told me he thought he was going to drown at first because the entire thing went under water but he just punched it, the tires and tracks started grabbing, and he slowly made it ashore. The thing was made by Allis Chalmers and that’s the only tractor he’d ever buy when he came back from the war. 

 

Also had had one of my old Captains ( I’m in a large metro fire Dept) tell me a story about his dad who landed on Omaha Beach but rarely talked about it. He took him to see Saving Private Ryan at the theatre. This man was in his 80’s at the time hadn’t seen a movie theater in 40 yrs. He wasn’t prepared for how real the opening scene would feel with the new technology in sound systems today. He told me after the opening scene his father had tears in his eyes and would later tell him that he could smell gunpowder and rotting flesh as he was sitting in that theater. Still gives me chills to think about it.

Both of them are gone now, but I hope series like BOB will make sure that their memories and experiences will never be.

[dcbc 14464]

Pretty good read about Alpha and Bravo company on D-Day. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1960/11/first-wave-at-omaha-beach/303365/

[ScottishHorn 172]

My grandfather was on Omaha beach on day 1.  He never spoke about it.  He died a few years ago.  He made it to Normandy for the 50th anniversary.   I'm going to try and make it over for the 75th anniversary next year

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

35 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Pretty good read about Alpha and Bravo company on D-Day. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1960/11/first-wave-at-omaha-beach/303365/

If you liked the article, read Alex Kershaw's book about Company A, 116th Regiment, 29th Division. The book is "The Bedford Boys". They were a National Guard unit that most joined before the war for "the dollar a day". 3 years later they went in on the first wave at Omaha. Many were from the same small town of Bedford, Virginia, twenty-two sons from Bedford would die in Normandy. Most, within the first few minutes of the invasion.

[Macanudo 12974]

15 hours ago, BillyGoatHill said:

If you liked the article, read Alex Kershaw's book about Company A, 116th Regiment, 29th Division. The book is "The Bedford Boys". They were a National Guard unit that most joined before the war for "the dollar a day". 3 years later they went in on the first wave at Omaha. Many were from the same small town of Bedford, Virginia, twenty-two sons from Bedford would die in Normandy. Most, within the first few minutes of the invasion.

Bedford D-Day Memorial:

 

[pepper brooks 580]

Aren’t they making one more band of brothers series?  Supposedly about air support/offensives?  I thought hanks and Spielberg were supposed to do that long ago.  Had forgotten about it. Hope it happens. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

15 hours ago, BillyGoatHill said:

If you liked the article, read Alex Kershaw's book about Company A, 116th Regiment, 29th Division. The book is "The Bedford Boys". They were a National Guard unit that most joined before the war for "the dollar a day". 3 years later they went in on the first wave at Omaha. Many were from the same small town of Bedford, Virginia, twenty-two sons from Bedford would die in Normandy. Most, within the first few minutes of the invasion.

Yep a good read.

[AUS-97HORN 11756]

On 6/1/2018 at 12:52 AM, JohnRedHorn said:

They couldn't even all agree on Sobel. Some of E company saw him as worthless while others said they wouldn't be alive today if he hadn't been so hard and demanding of them at that time.

You probably need to read the books of the men that were published after the mini-series aired  (or in the case of David Webster, published in 1994).

To a man, they all agree that without Sobel being a raging asshole, they wouldn't have been as hardened and badass as they ended up being.  He trained them harder than any other company in the 506th.

However, he was a worthless LEADER. Every single member of the group agreed he absolutely sucked at leading men, and making any rational military decisions.  His incompetence is backed up by his ass being re-assigned from being an active front-line combat officer, to being reassigned to teach the chaplains and doctors how to jump out of planes. Thats an effective demotion in the army. 

Plus, you dont have all 8 of your company Sergeant's literally agree to commit mutiny *IN WRITING* by refusing to serve under you without you having lost the confidence of leadership of the men.  Sobel's 2 senior Staff Sergeants, Ranney & Harris were the leaders of the mutiny (which is why both were busted to Private and reassigned to different companies in the 2/506th).   He trained them properly to handle combat, but if he had actually led them in combat, he was so incompetent as a leader, a shitload more of the company would have died following his orders.  The Sergeants knew this, which is why they all agreed to put their lives literally on the line to tell Sink they wouldnt serve under Sobel.

[AUS-97HORN 11756]

On 5/31/2018 at 6:57 PM, dcbc said:

As a guy in his 40s,

 

My dad was born in 1910.   !

 

Holy shit!  props to the old man, knocking boots with live rounds at 59-68 years of age.

[1978horn 892]

Aren’t they making one more band of brothers series?  Supposedly about air support/offensives?  I thought hanks and Spielberg were supposed to do that long ago.  Had forgotten about it. Hope it happens. 

They have been talking about making a series about The Mighty 8th. There has been rumors years, but the last update I remember was about a year ago with rumors of a 500 million dollar budget. No idea where they are in making it reality though.