Rowlett Helicopter Crash Footage 3/25/22

[Ag with kids 581]

58 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Ima say HMX-1 birds probably get excessive love and attention over an beyond anything found in the regular service or flying out to oil rigs/ accident scenes. They’re not trying to turn a profit.

The support HMX-1 birds are V-22s.  Badass for lots of things but autorotations aren't its forte.  Luckily, you can just land it like a fixed wing, knowing full well the rotors are exploding during landing.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, Ag with kids said:

The support HMX-1 birds are V-22s.  Badass for lots of things but autorotations aren't its forte.  Luckily, you can just land it like a fixed wing, knowing full well the rotors are exploding during landing.

I believe the rotors on the Osprey are interconnected so that both can be driven in the event of engine loss.  Never contemplated having to land it in the “airplane” configuration. It doesn’t look like it would be a particularly adapt flyer without those big rotors, but appearances didn’t keep a lot of things from flying just fine. 

[Ag with kids 581]

1 hour ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I believe the rotors on the Osprey are interconnected so that both can be driven in the event of engine loss.  Never contemplated having to land it in the “airplane” configuration. It doesn’t look like it would be a particularly adapt flyer without those big rotors, but appearances didn’t keep a lot of things from flying just fine. 

The ICDS (Inter Connected Drive Shaft) will shift power in the event of a SINGLE engine loss.  You can easily fly with just one engine.

 

But, just like all aircraft, loss of ALL engines is different.

As long as you have enough potential and kinetic energy, you can dead stick it in while in airplane mode.

[Assman 1830]

With my 30 hours of helo time, I feel fully qualified to say I will never step foot on a Robinson.  Fuck.  That.

[Lat22 4017]

so that's what happens when the tail rotor breaks off.
 

It didn’t break off. The main rotor cut it off.

[Exposition 93]

Sounds like the pilot was quite involved in the helicopter community. RIP. 

 

[Herbie Hancock 7376]

Once again for the people in the back, fuck a fucking Robinson.

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2022/03/31/tyson-wallis-killed-helicopter-crash/?fbclid=IwAR2SaJEa77_6K-wM0OIHPPcDql-lgFMKjuwY2Ym0DFunHMR4eBkfwXNy8jI#l1f7iwz9ldqo4hssp4

[Blotto 23575]

On 3/28/2022 at 1:34 PM, mchookem said:

we took a helicopter ride in Hawaii a couple years ago, flew over/around two different islands. absolutely breathtaking and a once in a lifetime experience.

i am so glad i was unaware of this at the time lol 😐

Ha, that's the only time I've been in a helicopter as well. While the views were spectacular, all of the lava activity was pretty dormant on the day we flew. The pilot kept telling us "oh man, you should have been on the tour yesterday, the lava was shooting high, it was spectacular." Meanwhile we were flying over lava vents where all you could see was a little smoke leaking out. Maybe ease off on continually telling us how much less we're getting for the hundreds we each spent! While it was a cool experience to be in a helicopter, I don't know that I'm anxious to do it again. 

[RPM 26354]

 

[bschoolprof 6272]

On 3/29/2022 at 9:59 AM, Lat22 said:

It didn’t break off. The main rotor cut it off.

This dude speculates it was an overly aggressive pilot command given the circumstances, which can cause the main rotor to deflect down and cut off the tail section.  Seems kinda like a design flaw to me, but I'm no engineer.

 

[Trey3216 15356]

On 3/25/2022 at 4:39 PM, Judge Roybeanbag said:

What goes up must come down.  Hopefully it comes down in a controllable fashion. Sorry for the guy flying that.  Ugh. 

Ride a painted pony...

[Brisketexan 105336]

10 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

This dude speculates it was an overly aggressive pilot command given the circumstances, which can cause the main rotor to deflect down and cut off the tail section.  Seems kinda like a design flaw to me, but I'm no engineer.

 

Yeah.....I don't think I'm gonna be riding on a type of helicopter that has a function of "oh, and sometimes, the main rotor can tilt low enough to cut off the tail rotor and send you into a death plunge."  I decline.

[Ag with kids 581]

24 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah.....I don't think I'm gonna be riding on a type of helicopter that has a function of "oh, and sometimes, the main rotor can tilt low enough to cut off the tail rotor and send you into a death plunge."  I decline.

Well, you described all helicopters, here...

It would have to be something REALLY aggressive though to make the rotor flap that much.

Also for y'alls viewing pleasure...

 

[Brisketexan 105336]

3 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Well, you described all helicopters, here...

Well then......the list of helicopters I will be getting on voluntarily is....

 

 

 

Yep, that about covers it.

[MrBig 5440]

https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-robinson-helicopters/

Great article about the history of Robinsons and deadly crashes

[bschoolprof 6272]

6 minutes ago, MrBig said:

https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-robinson-helicopters/

Great article about the history of Robinsons and deadly crashes

Thanks.  That article discusses the "mast bumping" issue alluded to in the youtube video I posted.  

Quote

Helicopters generally share a basic design: A main rotor system attached to a vertical drive shaft, or mast, provides the lift and thrust. A tail rotor stabilizes the aircraft.

 

But those systems vary, and Robinson uses its own version of a two-bladed main rotor that teeters on a hub atop the mast.

All teetering rotor systems are susceptible to a phenomenon called mast-bumping, which occurs when the seesawing becomes so extreme that the hub or the inner ends of the rotor blades strike the mast.

Mast-bumping often occurs in low-gravity — or “low G” — conditions, which can be induced by incorrect pilot inputs or turbulent weather.

In some helicopters, it might cause only minor damage. In Robinsons, it has been catastrophic: Rotor systems break off or the blades cut into cockpits or tail booms, according to aviation experts and incident reports by U.S. and foreign accident investigators.

 

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

Mast bumping, or like others have said excessive torque due to pilot error or a simple negative G. I've known many that fly these and many get their hrs learning in them, but not for me.

Around 2011, we assisted DPS in looking for a Robinson that had crashed in the Manor/Elgin area. Flying the area that morning, we found the main rotor blade (fully intact) first, around 200 meters from the aircraft crash site where there wasn't much left (burned). The pilot was retired AFD if I remember correctly.

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by BillyGoatHill

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

On 3/28/2022 at 2:26 PM, Herbie Hancock said:

In most of the Agusta and Bell birds used in air medical, the flight paramedic seat is the fuel tank, which ruptures and bursts into flames 10 out of 10 times in the event of a crash. Good stuff. Such fun.

Agusta is supposed to have fixed that but I don't believe they have completely (at least not for all EMS). Glad that I didn't have to fly in those (145s/169s). Knew a pilot that crashed in Colorado upon leaving the hospital pad and his burst into flames upon impact due to fuel tank rupturing. All three were able to get out but not before receiving massive burns. The pilot died a few days later. 😢 

[faps 808]

DPS trooper buddy of mine has responded to two heli crashes, both were Robinsons. He was probably one of the DPS guys at that Manor/Elgin crash site investigation.

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

14 minutes ago, faps said:

DPS trooper buddy of mine has responded to two heli crashes, both were Robinsons. He was probably one of the DPS guys at that Manor/Elgin crash site investigation.

Most likely.

We were just working with their ground units that day as (of course) their birds were then and still are, always along the border. They had a generalized area where they knew it had gone down, but very rural and no roads. We got lucky and found it within half an hour. Bit sobering when you are looking for a similar aircraft as to what you flying around in. Nature of the beast. 

[Ag with kids 581]

3 hours ago, bschoolprof said:

Thanks.  That article discusses the "mast bumping" issue alluded to in the youtube video I posted.  

 

Quote

Helicopters generally share a basic design: A main rotor system attached to a vertical drive shaft, or mast, provides the lift and thrust. A tail rotor stabilizes the aircraft.

I hated that description of what a tail rotor does.  It's pretty vague and doesn't give you much of an idea HOW it "stabilizes" the aircraft.

The tail rotor is an anti-torque device.  Making the rotor spin in one direction causes the aircraft fuselage to spin in the opposite direction (Newton's Third Law and shit).  The tail rotor is there to counteract that tendency for the fuselage to spin by thrusting in the opposite direction.  THAT is how it "stabilizes" the aircraft. 

It's why helicopters start spinning when bad shit happens to the back end of it...

Edited March 31, 2022 by Ag with kids

[TwiceHorn 31536]

37 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

I hated that description of what a tail rotor does.  It's pretty vague and doesn't give you much of an idea HOW it "stabilizes" the aircraft.

The tail rotor is an anti-torque device.  Making the rotor spin in one direction causes the aircraft fuselage to spin in the opposite direction (Newton's Third Law and shit).  The tail rotor is there to counteract that tendency for the fuselage to spin by thrusting in the opposite direction.  THAT is how it "stabilizes" the aircraft. 

It's why helicopters start spinning when bad shit happens to the back end of it...

Unless they're Kamovs, Kamans, or Vertol.

[Herbie Hancock 7376]

Agusta is supposed to have fixed that but I don't believe they have completely (at least not for all EMS). Glad that I didn't have to fly in those (145s/169s). Knew a pilot that crashed in Colorado upon leaving the hospital pad and his burst into flames upon impact due to fuel tank rupturing. All three were able to get out but not before receiving massive burns. The pilot died a few days later.  

AE 25 came down in the middle of the street in front of United Regional in 2014. AE 34 was on the pad and watched it happen. When they went to get the crew out of the flames the flight nurse Leslie screamed at them to leave her. She knew she was already dead. She died 5 days later at Parkland.

[Deej 76921]

Well, that's an image I could have done without.

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

33 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

AE 25 came down in the middle of the street in front of United Regional in 2014. AE 34 was on the pad and watched it happen. When they went to get the crew out of the flames the flight nurse Leslie screamed at them to leave her. She knew she was already dead. She died 5 days later at Parkland.

I remember that one happening. We would always do a Gap Analysis of mishaps once the NTSB report was out to make sure we weren't following the same path.  Sometimes before reports were complete depending if it was in country or OCONUS. 

In late 2008 (not a good yr for HEMS) I was offered a job by AE, luckily their pay was not desirable. Would've turned them down either way as I brought up a couple safety questions during the phone interview which didn't seem to go over well with the interviewer. Glad that it went that way.

[Ag with kids 581]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Unless they're Kamovs, Kamans, or Vertol.

Well, it's still the exact same concept.

They don't have tail rotors, though.

In the case of the Kamovs/Kamans, they use contra-rotating rotors (two rotors rotating in different directions on the same or close the same axis).  They're spinning in opposite directions.  This negates the torque induced spinning of the fuselage and eliminates the need for a tail rotor.  The Vertol has the rotors rotating in opposite directions to counteract the torqued, but not near the same axis.  The V-22 does the same thing (as does the Bell V-280 and Leonardo 609).

Edited April 1, 2022 by Ag with kids

[BillyGoatHill 4312]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Unless they're Kamovs, Kamans, or Vertol.

Correct. Counter rotating mains, so no need for tail rotor. 

csb/ dinner and drinking buds with old man Kaman's son.

edit. Ag above 👆 posted right before me.

Edited April 1, 2022 by BillyGoatHill

[TexasEd 8077]

Feel bad for that pilot.  Saw one of those land behind a gas station in Cedar Park once.  Warning don't watch the rollercoaster video.  It is worse than you can imagine.  Then the teen age operators are asking each other if they checked the belt.

 

Since we're talking about helicopters my nephew is a USMC mechanic on them and I have ridden in several all piloted by Navy or USMC pilots.

H-3 (like older Marine 1) - this was nice inside for an admiral on a command ship but super old

CH-46 Sea Knight with the dual rotors was both the scariest and the most fun especially when they lowered the rear cargo door I was sitting next to.

SH-60 Seahawk is like a Black Hawk was the least stressful

CH-53 only been on this platform once.

The vertical takeoff from a ship was better than the cat launches in a C2 though.  

On my honeymoon on the Big Island we thought about going on the lava tour but we walked it instead.  Would have made a good memory but I was broke back then.

Edited April 1, 2022 by TexasEd

[Judge Roybeanbag 11821]

The only helicopter I ever flew in was a Bell H13 when I was a kid. Will never do it again.  

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

13 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

Well, it's still the exact same concept.

They don't have tail rotors, though.

In the case of the Kamovs/Kamans, they use contra-rotating rotors (two rotors rotating in different directions on the same or close the same axis).  They're spinning in opposite directions.  This negates the torque induced spinning of the fuselage and eliminates the need for a tail rotor.  The Vertol has the rotors rotating in opposite directions to counteract the torqued, but not near the same axis.  The V-22 does the same thing (as does the Bell V-280 and Leonardo 609).

Same principle with the Blackhawk replacement Defiant program. 

[TwiceHorn 31536]

14 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

Well, it's still the exact same concept.

They don't have tail rotors, though.

In the case of the Kamovs/Kamans, they use contra-rotating rotors (two rotors rotating in different directions on the same or close the same axis).  They're spinning in opposite directions.  This negates the torque induced spinning of the fuselage and eliminates the need for a tail rotor.  The Vertol has the rotors rotating in opposite directions to counteract the torqued, but not near the same axis.  The V-22 does the same thing (as does the Bell V-280 and Leonardo 609).

And a Vertol I suppose is about equally fucked if it loses one or the other rotor.  Not sure on that given their so different airframe, but it seems so.

One of my favorite rotary wing terms is "Jesus nut."

Edited April 1, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Ag with kids 581]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

And a Vertol I suppose is about equally fucked if it loses one or the other rotor.  Not sure on that given their so different airframe, but it seems so.

One of my favorite rotary wing terms is "Jesus nut."

Yes.  Losing a rotor would be VERY bad.  You'd lose anti torque AND half the lift - but only on part of the aircraft.  So, you'd either pitch up or down and start spinning...

Yeah...hard to believe that the only thing holding the entire rotor on the aircraft is that one nut...

And since we're talking about them, here's some cool videos of one:

 

[Ag with kids 581]

1 hour ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Same principle with the Blackhawk replacement Defiant program. 

Well...they haven't won it yet.  It's still between them and the Bell V-280.

I'm a little biased towards the V-280, though...

[RPM 26354]

When I took this tour over Royal Gorge in an R-44 I had no idea of the Robinson curse. Listening to the rotor chop now when he was banking hard and doing negative G's gives me the puckers.

 

[TexasEd 8077]

23 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Yes.  Losing a rotor would be VERY bad.  You'd lose anti torque AND half the lift - but only on part of the aircraft.  So, you'd either pitch up or down and start spinning...

Yeah...hard to believe that the only thing holding the entire rotor on the aircraft is that one nut...

And since we're talking about them, here's some cool videos of one:

 

The ones I was in felt like they were shaking that much when they were just fine.  I do remember the safety briefing of "If we go down in the water, wait until everything stops moving before you get out."  I imagine going too early is like being in a food processor.

 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

2 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

Well...they haven't won it yet.  It's still between them and the Bell V-280.

I'm a little biased towards the V-280, though...

I didn’t imply they won it or any preference. Just that said program uses the same principles and is part of the Blackhawk replacement program. 
 

I would think Bell’s entry would face a footprint problem on ships and LZ’s as its primary drawback. The Defiant is cool as shit, but that’s a lot of gearing and stuff going on. Maybe no worse than the transmission for the tilt rotor. I don’t know. I fly 40 year old tech that competes against 60 year old tech. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Bobby_Batronic

[Ag with kids 581]

13 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I didn’t imply they won it or any preference. Just that said program uses the same principles and is part of the Blackhawk replacement program. 
 

I would think Bell’s entry would face a footprint problem on ships and LZ’s as its primary drawback. The Defiant is cool as shit, but that’s a lot of gearing and stuff going on. Maybe no worse than the transmission for the tilt rotor. I don’t know. I fly 40 year old tech that competes against 60 year old tech. 

It's cool.  Just pointing out that it's still in the competition phase now.  Again, I admit to my bias for the V-280.

The V-280 is smaller than the V-22 and the V-22 has no problem with LZs for the Marines so I assume that won't be an isse.  I don't know if they have a wing fold version (see below) of the V-280 right now since the primary customer is the Army so they don't need to be on boats as of now.

The Defiant is cool, with the contra-rotating rotors and pusher prop, but it can't achieve the speed of the V-280 (the 280 is there in the name for a reason).  Helicopters always have that big issue with the reversed flow on the retreating blade and approaching shock waves on the advancing blades. The tilt rotors don't have this issue.

I assume the Defiant slows the rotation of blades at higher speeds to help with this issue though.

I doubt the Defiant is any more complicated than the V-280.  Tomato Tomahto

BTW, it's hard to believe that the V-22 is "40 year old tech" now.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

12 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

It's cool.  Just pointing out that it's still in the competition phase now.  Again, I admit to my bias for the V-280.

The V-280 is smaller than the V-22 and the V-22 has no problem with LZs for the Marines so I assume that won't be an isse.  I don't know if they have a wing fold version (see below) of the V-280 right now since the primary customer is the Army so they don't need to be on boats as of now.

The Defiant is cool, with the contra-rotating rotors and pusher prop, but it can't achieve the speed of the V-280 (the 280 is there in the name for a reason).  Helicopters always have that big issue with the reversed flow on the retreating blade and approaching shock waves on the advancing blades. The tilt rotors don't have this issue.

I assume the Defiant slows the rotation of blades at higher speeds to help with this issue though.

I doubt the Defiant is any more complicated than the V-280.  Tomato Tomahto

BTW, it's hard to believe that the V-22 is "40 year old tech" now.

I guess the footprint issue would be with regard to how many are needed to carry a comparable load of soldiers as a Blackhawk if it’s 1-1 then clearly the thing has a larger footprint. If it can carry more then that makes sense. I would think the -22 is more of a Sea Knight replacement, and as you noted can swivel all sorts of stuff to get small for parking. 
 

It is interesting that what is essentially Cheyenne tech is making a comeback of sorts. 

[Ag with kids 581]

35 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I guess the footprint issue would be with regard to how many are needed to carry a comparable load of soldiers as a Blackhawk if it’s 1-1 then clearly the thing has a larger footprint. If it can carry more then that makes sense. I would think the -22 is more of a Sea Knight replacement, and as you noted can swivel all sorts of stuff to get small for parking. 
 

It is interesting that what is essentially Cheyenne tech is making a comeback of sorts. 

It appears all 3 carry 12 pax.  Both are good designs.  I'd almost like both to win.  But, still biased towards the V-280.

[MrBig 5440]

4 hours ago, RPM said:

When I took this tour over Royal Gorge in an R-44 I had no idea of the Robinson curse. Listening to the rotor chop now when he was banking hard and doing negative G's gives me the puckers.

 

I’ve never been in a helicopter. But watching this video, it looks like the helicopter is vibrating like crazy when you look at the center console. 

Do all helicopters vibrate like this? I thought it was shaky camerawork, but when you look at the horizon, it is not shaky, just the chopper itself is shaking. That’s some scary shit. 

[Ag with kids 581]

33 minutes ago, MrBig said:

I’ve never been in a helicopter. But watching this video, it looks like the helicopter is vibrating like crazy when you look at the center console. 

Do all helicopters vibrate like this? I thought it was shaky camerawork, but when you look at the horizon, it is not shaky, just the chopper itself is shaking. That’s some scary shit. 

Yes.

Here's a video from when I was doing FTE work.  NOTE:  Turn down your volume.

[Ag with kids 581]

 

Apparently I can't drag and drop from my MacBook photo app into here.

Again...turn down the volume.  This makes loud helicopter noises.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

If you ever work with a career helo head it becomes clear that the continual vibration does something to them. Particularly the old Huey/Cobra  big thumpers. 
 

The stories are worth the price of admission. 

[Ag with kids 581]

1 hour ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

If you ever work with a career helo head it becomes clear that the continual vibration does something to them. Particularly the old Huey/Cobra  big thumpers. 
 

The stories are worth the price of admission. 

This is SO true!

I've worked with LOTS of helo pilots.

Nick Lappos (Lead engineer for the S-92, he's in wikipedia) was AWESOME.  The stories he told were badass.  He had over 900 combat missions in Vietnam.  He made the comment that he'd fired around 1 million rounds during his flights.

 And the test pilots I worked with had badass stories, too.  Some were of combat, others were about training but holy shit they were funny as shit.

I work with several Apache pilots now and they have some quite interesting stories of Iraq and Afghanistan...

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

18 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

This is SO true!

I've worked with LOTS of helo pilots.

Nick Lappos (Lead engineer for the S-92, he's in wikipedia) was AWESOME.  The stories he told were badass.  He had over 900 combat missions in Vietnam.  He made the comment that he'd fired around 1 million rounds during his flights.

 And the test pilots I worked with had badass stories, too.  Some were of combat, others were about training but holy shit they were funny as shit.

I work with several Apache pilots now and they have some quite interesting stories of Iraq and Afghanistan...

One of my favorite coworkers commanded an Apache squadron in Iraq 2. Later became a personal pilot for Petraeus. He has the craziest stories about “servicing” their targets and the most deadpan delivery and biting humor of anyone I know. Really good man. 

One of my best friends was a Ranger interrogator before becoming an Alabama state trooper where he flew their Hueys and then Bell products among other things. Stone cold killer if need be, but an extremely generous crazy man most of the time. Great stories. He taught a member of the band Alabama to fly and soloed him in a trooper helo. I can’t do it justice, but he was pretty sure he’d be one of the most hated men in Alabama if it didn’t go well. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Bobby_Batronic

[Ag with kids 581]

12 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

One of my favorite coworkers commanded an Apache squadron in Iraq 2. Later became a personal pilot for Petraeus. He has the craziest stories about “servicing” their targets and the most deadpan delivery and biting humor of anyone I know. Really good man. 

One of my best friends was a Ranger interrogator before becoming an Alabama state trooper where he flew their Hueys and then Bell products among other things. Stone cold killer if need be, but an extremely generous crazy man most of the time. Great stories. He taught a member of the band Alabama to fly and soloed him in a trooper helo. I can’t do it justice, but he was pretty sure he’d be one of the most hated men in Alabama if it didn’t go well. 

That's awesome!

PM me the Apache pilot's name and I'll see if my guys knew him.  Apparently, it was a pretty close knit community.

[Herbie Hancock 7376]

If you ever work with a career helo head it becomes clear that the continual vibration does something to them. Particularly the old Huey/Cobra  big thumpers. 
 
The stories are worth the price of admission. 

It’s pretty easy to tell the civilian trained pilots vs military. Civvy pilots make sure everyone is buckled before takeoff, military says if you ain’t strapped in you won’t be here for long. Seriously, seen a private trained pilot make 3 approaches and then request a larger LZ and then confirm twice that the road he was landing on was closed. Had an old Vietnam Huey pilot tell me about bouncing takeoffs while he was actively landing into 40 mph winds in the middle of a sandy field to pick up a patient that was 60 kilos over payload. Zero fucks given.