Aluminum Wiring, Tell Me About it

[TwiceHorn 31438]

Looking at a house we like.  Fucking has aluminum wiring.  I know the theoretical problems with it, and frankly they scare the shit out of me.

According to an inspection report a couple of years ago, a "sample" of switches and outlets indicated that "pigtailing" had been done with "purple wire nuts."  I understand that this is better than nothing, but not the best type of connector to do copper-aluminum splicing.

The house has been remodeled and there are some things that are wired with copper.  There are some indications that some of that work was a little sloppy, but that's kind of a side issue.

Realistically, how big a deal is this?

[Surly Bevo 24908]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Realistically, how big a deal is this?

Depends on what your smoke alarm and hazard insurance game looks like.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

1 minute ago, Surly Bevo said:

Depends on what your smoke alarm and hazard insurance game looks like.

I don't think I want to find out.  Cross this one off?

[Surly Bevo 24908]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

I don't think I want to find out.  Cross this one off?

I mean the serious answer is there is nothing inherently wrong with the wiring except at the connections, which is where all the fuckery happens (to your point about some of the apparent "work" done to splice copper and rectify). I would want all of that shit completely buttoned down and even then what are your long term intentions with the property?  Sure right now a house at a reasonable price with warts may seem like water in the middle of the Sahara, but in a different market.....

[conVINCEd 21469]

12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Looking at a house we like.  Fucking has aluminum wiring.  I know the theoretical problems with it, and frankly they scare the shit out of me.

According to an inspection report a couple of years ago, a "sample" of switches and outlets indicated that "pigtailing" had been done with "purple wire nuts."  I understand that this is better than nothing, but not the best type of connector to do copper-aluminum splicing.

The house has been remodeled and there are some things that are wired with copper.  There are some indications that some of that work was a little sloppy, but that's kind of a side issue.

Realistically, how big a deal is this?

I’ll be happy to trade you my current rodent problem for your potential aluminum wiring problem.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

5 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

I mean the serious answer is there is nothing inherently wrong with the wiring except at the connections, which is where all the fuckery happens (to your point about some of the apparent "work" done to splice copper and rectify). I would want all of that shit completely buttoned down and even then what are your long term intentions with the property?  Sure right now a house at a reasonable price with warts may seem like water in the middle of the Sahara, but in a different market.....

Yeahhh.  Looks like the standard, short of rewiring, is a "copalum" crimp connection to splice in copper at all the connections, by a "copalum certified" electrician.

"Purple wire nuts" are kind of hit or miss, not regarded by CPSC as a permanent solution.

I'm gonna pass.

[Parliament 14237]

A builder who cuts corners on aluminum wiring has cut corners elsewhere as well.  Don't buy that house.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

53 minutes ago, Parliament said:

A builder who cuts corners on aluminum wiring has cut corners elsewhere as well.  Don't buy that house.

That is my other thought.  Apparently, though, in the 60s and early 70s, it happened a lot.  This house in this neighborhood isn't or shouldn't be some kind of tract house.  The foundation, although slab, is solid.  I'm going to guess that this was a custom build back then, and the owner spec'ed aluminum and no one knew any better.

I guess the pigtailing was added when the remodel was done, a couple of owners back.  That they chose the cheapest way, apparently, to deal with that, troubles me.

In case this comes up for someone else, there seems to be a hierarchy of dealing with this:

1) rewire with copper (prohibitively expensive in most cases)

2) add copper pigtails at every outlet, switch, junction box, and significant connection, and there are three ways to do this:

Copalum crimping, a proprietary process that requires a ceritified technician, but apparently is the gold standard and $$$ 

"Alumiconn" connectors $$ , and

"Purple" wire nuts, which the Consumer Product Safety Commission regards as a "temporary" solution $

3) install Aluminum-compatible outlets and switches

Edited March 28, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Bevo&Pevo 5120]

Aluminum wiring would be a no no for me.  Our old farm haus had aluminum wiring in it.  We were working on the attic floor and accidently found a wire connection that was very warm to the touch.  The following week it was all hands on deck for a new panel, wire, breakers, outlets, etc.  Dad went all in.   As a kid, they had a place burn to the ground, so he was not taking any chances.

[dirtonia 269]

My house hasn’t burnt down yet, data point of one.

[JesusSweatDuck 17781]

19 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Looking at a house we like.  Fucking has aluminum wiring.  I know the theoretical problems with it, and frankly they scare the shit out of me.

According to an inspection report a couple of years ago, a "sample" of switches and outlets indicated that "pigtailing" had been done with "purple wire nuts."  I understand that this is better than nothing, but not the best type of connector to do copper-aluminum splicing.

The house has been remodeled and there are some things that are wired with copper.  There are some indications that some of that work was a little sloppy, but that's kind of a side issue.

Realistically, how big a deal is this?

Don't, or get a bid to replace everything and know what you're getting into.

[ClubWhatever 12120]

We bought a condo with alum wiring and had the copalum connectors put on.  It hasn’t burned down yet nor have any of the other units. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by ClubWhatever

[Gil Bang 25907]

22 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeahhh.  Looks like the standard, short of rewiring, is a "copalum" crimp connection to splice in copper at all the connections, by a "copalum certified" electrician.

"Purple wire nuts" are kind of hit or miss, not regarded by CPSC as a permanent solution.

I'm gonna pass.

Don't pass.   Just get a bid to properly correct it, and know what you're getting into.  And a full re-wire isn't that big of a deal, relatively speaking.  Most folks to a two-pronged approach.  Replace the wiring that's easily accessible, such as the attic wiring, and do the pigtails elsewhere.  And any time you open up a wall, replace all accessible wiring in that wall.  

4 hours ago, Parliament said:

A builder who cuts corners on aluminum wiring has cut corners elsewhere as well.  Don't buy that house.

Bullshit.  

Aluminum was widely used for a period of time.  It's not an indication that the builder was cutting corners.   Yeah, we know now that it can be problematic, but it was thought to be fine at the time.  Aluminum is a terrific conductor. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

5 hours ago, Parliament said:

A builder who cuts corners on aluminum wiring has cut corners elsewhere as well.  Don't buy that house.

It's not about cutting corners typically. It was used because copper Wiring was in short supply for a number of reasons in the late 60's -early 70's.  We lived in a house with aluminum wiring, it was well built otherwise.

Having said that I wouldn't buy a house w/ aluminum wiring unless there was a deduct so it could be dealt with, which wouldn't be cheap.

[Bevo 13560]

If conduit is used can't you simply remove all the cover plates and go into the attic and pull new Romex down from there. That doesn't sound too hard.

[Bernard 879]

Properly pigtailed aluminum wiring is a safe and permanent solution. There millions of homes built with aluminum wiring. I recently oversaw the complete rewiring of 1940’s house with original knob and tube wiring though, so I wouldn’t rule out a complete rewire if you really like the house.

Bernard

Edited March 29, 2022 by Bernard

[fattyflattie 4639]

Agree with the last few posters. If you really like the house, it can be dealt with.  If it’s already on the fence, pass. 

[Gil Bang 25907]

5 hours ago, Bevo said:

If conduit is used can't you simply remove all the cover plates and go into the attic and pull new Romex down from there. That doesn't sound too hard.

Tell me that you've never done this without telling me you've never done this.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Gil Bang

[Bevo 13560]

4 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

Tell me that you've never done this without telling me you've never done this.

I've minimally tried to know that it isn't possible and it has been awhile since I've looked at electrical rough-in. I assume instead of conduit, wire is run directly and stapled to the frame. So either the drywall needs to be cut or the wire fished through the wall and if it is fished through the walls it probably doesn't meet code because it isn't stapled: Is this right? I'm building a SIP home (structural insulated panels), and it uses conduit and every outside job I've done I run wire through gray PVC conduit. My office uses aluminum conduit on the inside. So re-running wires isn't a big deal (except for the hourly cost of electricians).

[fattyflattie 4639]

13 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I've minimally tried to know that it isn't possible and it has been awhile since I've looked at electrical rough-in. I assume instead of conduit, wire is run directly and stapled to the frame. So either the drywall needs to be cut or the wire fished through the wall and if it is fished through the walls it probably doesn't meet code because it isn't stapled: Is this right? I'm building a SIP home (structural insulated panels), and it uses conduit and every outside job I've done I run wire through gray PVC conduit. My office uses aluminum conduit on the inside. So re-running wires isn't a big deal (except for the hourly cost of electricians).

Most all of your typical residential is going to have it running thru rough ass holes in the studs. No conduit. 

[TwiceHorn 31438]

9 hours ago, Bernard said:

Properly pigtailed aluminum wiring is a safe and permanent solution. There millions of homes built with aluminum wiring. I recently oversaw the complete rewiring of 1940’s house with original knob and tube wiring though, so I wouldn’t rule out a complete rewire if you really like the house.

Bernard

The key here seems to be "properly pigtailed."  

We like the house, but while it's a completely nice neighborhood, its location isn't ideal for our purposes, at least as best we can figure.

So the Al wiring kind of became a reason not to make an offer.

 

[TexPx 2322]

Be sure to check your breaker box/ electrical panel if it’s a 60s/70s home. Did a search on my early 70s panel for replacement breakers and found out mine was deemed unsafe and part of a class action lawsuit in 2002. Had it replaced when I found out and sleep better now.

[Nueces River Rat 5537]

Aluminum wiring is a no go for some insurance companies.    I do know a few who will write it , but it will cost you.  Surprisingly they will cover knob and tube as well.  
 

[Armybrat 40822]

On 3/27/2022 at 8:09 PM, Surly Bevo said:

I mean the serious answer is there is nothing inherently wrong with the wiring except at the connections, which is where all the fuckery happens (to your point about some of the apparent "work" done to splice copper and rectify). I would want all of that shit completely buttoned down and even then what are your long term intentions with the property?  Sure right now a house at a reasonable price with warts may seem like water in the middle of the Sahara, but in a different market.....

We lived in a house built in 1971 that had aluminum wiring. It wasn’t a known problem when we bought it in 1976, but became apparent several years later when we noticed the wood panelling around one outlet was scorched. Called in an electrician who rewired all the outlets by splicing them with copper wiring. It did pass inspection when we sold it 10 years later.

I would replace all the wiring with 100% copper today.

[TeeDubya 3362]

Whether it's safe or not, it is stigmatized by many people, and you will reduce your pool of possible buyers in any future sale.

Edited March 30, 2022 by TeeDubya

[TwiceHorn 31438]

15 minutes ago, TeeDubya said:

Whether it's safe or not, it is stigmatized by many people, and you will reduce your pool of possible buyers in any future sale.

Well, it's option pending now, so not an issue for these sellers.

I'm too goddamn picky for this market.

[Nueces River Rat 5537]

Up to few years ago, a complete rewire of average size home was not too expensive considering the task at hand compared to other system or structure replacements.   Not sure about today with the cost of materials and labor where it falls now.  

[Marshall_Lucky 624]

3 hours ago, TeeDubya said:

Whether it's safe or not, it is stigmatized by many people, and you will reduce your pool of possible buyers in any future sale.

We sold our 1960 pigtailed North Dallas ranch in January. Two days on market, 11 offers, sold for 14% over ask. So your mileage may vary. 

[Bevo 13560]

10 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, it's option pending now, so not an issue for these sellers.

I'm too goddamn picky for this market.

If you have the cash, you could wait until interest rates rise and housing prices drop later this year or next.

[Nueces River Rat 5537]

7 hours ago, Marshall_Lucky said:

We sold our 1960 pigtailed North Dallas ranch in January. Two days on market, 11 offers, sold for 14% over ask. So your mileage may vary. 

Buyers are paying top dollar for stuff I see that should be on a demolition list or maybe at least considered.   But they do amazing things to some of these properties.

 

[CHIEF 5075]

15 hours ago, Nueces River Rat said:

Aluminum wiring is a no go for some insurance companies.    I do know a few who will write it , but it will cost you.  Surprisingly they will cover knob and tube as well.  
 

When I worked in insurance back in the 90's, it was a no-go pretty much for all the majors(State Farm, Farmers, Allstate, Farm Bureau, etc.) out there. I had people call weekly looking for someone that would write a homeowners policy for a home with aluminum wiring. Somebody has to be writing it. Maybe someone that has chimed in will tell you who they are insured with.

CHIEF

[dirtonia 269]

State Farm, they gave no fucks about it. Y’all some pusssayyyyys.

[conVINCEd 21469]

3 minutes ago, dirtonia said:

State Farm, they gave no fucks about it. Y’all some pusssayyyyys.

That’s not completely true.  If they knew about it they would give a fuck, but their agents like writing HO policies and don’t ask a whole lot of questions that they don’t want to know the answer to.

[Slacks 6819]

On 3/27/2022 at 8:01 PM, TwiceHorn said:

Looking at a house we like.  Fucking has aluminum wiring.  I know the theoretical problems with it, and frankly they scare the shit out of me.

According to an inspection report a couple of years ago, a "sample" of switches and outlets indicated that "pigtailing" had been done with "purple wire nuts."  I understand that this is better than nothing, but not the best type of connector to do copper-aluminum splicing.

The house has been remodeled and there are some things that are wired with copper.  There are some indications that some of that work was a little sloppy, but that's kind of a side issue.

Realistically, how big a deal is this?

been in mine for 12 years....  When an outlet or switch burns up, I rewire it... At first I used purple wire nuts, but they eventually burn... So I started using the AL to CU bridges.

 

Use it to negotiate, but don't panic.

[Slacks 6819]

On 3/29/2022 at 7:20 AM, TexPx said:

Be sure to check your breaker box/ electrical panel if it’s a 60s/70s home. Did a search on my early 70s panel for replacement breakers and found out mine was deemed unsafe and part of a class action lawsuit in 2002. Had it replaced when I found out and sleep better now.

You had an FPE... Dubbed "Fire Panel Express"

[TexPx 2322]

You had an FPE... Dubbed "Fire Panel Express"

No. Zinsco made, Sylvania branded.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[horn4life 3759]

I was on the board when we retrofitted all of our aluminum wiring by using some sort of high pressure connector to permanently secure the pigtail to the aluminium.

It wasn't cheap but it was a HELL of a lot cheaper than rewiring the entire complex!

My understanding then was that it was the contraction and expansion of the aluminum that caused failed connections and thus a greater chance of fire.  I also wonder how the wiring might effect your insurance rate.

 

[Slacks 6819]

7 hours ago, horn4life said:

I was on the board when we retrofitted all of our aluminum wiring by using some sort of high pressure connector to permanently secure the pigtail to the aluminium.

It wasn't cheap but it was a HELL of a lot cheaper than rewiring the entire complex!

My understanding then was that it was the contraction and expansion of the aluminum that caused failed connections and thus a greater chance of fire.  I also wonder how the wiring might effect your insurance rate.

 

Noone has ever looked or asked... And I recently changed from Jake to the Oracle.

I wish I would have rewired it all when I bought it... But so far, it's only to been a problem at certain outlets and switches... As soon as I smell plastic or see soot on a wall, I pigtail with the bridge. The bridges work.

 

[Jkwellborn 6686]

Tell me that you've never done this without telling me you've never done this.

I mean, he’s correct if it’s in conduit. But almost no one runs conduit in the house. Extra cost and it’s a pain.

Aluminum wire sucks.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Jkwellborn said:

I mean, he’s correct if it’s in conduit. But almost no one runs conduit in the house. Extra cost and it’s a pain.

Aluminum wire sucks.

It does, but it’s what they use as your main feed into your house. Big gauge shit, but Alu-minium none the less. 

[Jkwellborn 6686]

It does, but it’s what they use as your main feed into your house. Big gauge shit, but Alu-minium none the less. 

Yeah I know. I hate that shit. Had to trench about 200’ for a fucking meter to a trailer in the middle of the woods when I was in school. With a shovel and pick, because it was an iron ore hill.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

On 3/31/2022 at 10:17 PM, Snacks said:

been in mine for 12 years....  When an outlet or switch burns up, I rewire it... At first I used purple wire nuts, but they eventually burn... So I started using the AL to CU bridges.

 

Use it to negotiate, but don't panic.

That's good information on the purple nuts.

I'm pretty much out on Al wiring.

I think I'm also pretty much out of this market.  It's FUBAR.

[conVINCEd 21469]

15 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

That's good information on the purple nuts.

I'm pretty much out on Al wiring.

I think I'm also pretty much out of this market.  It's FUBAR.

Yeah, the house across the street from us, which is by far the shittiest house on the block, was put on tve market last week for about 25% more than I would have expected.  I bet 50 people looked at it the first day, a bidding war ensued, and it’s under contract for 20% over asking.  

[TwiceHorn 31438]

6 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Yeah, the house across the street from us, which is by far the shittiest house on the block, was put on tve market last week for about 25% more than I would have expected.  I bet 50 people looked at it the first day, a bidding war ensued, and it’s under contract for 20% over asking.  

Works out great for you, most likely.  The only solace is that we'd probably get a shit ton for our current house.  But we probably will anyway.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

Saw another one with aluminum wiring, today.

Whoever said that they're selling teardowns for a million bucks nailed it.

Fuck this market.

In the ass.

 

[Bernard 879]

On 3/29/2022 at 9:37 PM, TeeDubya said:

Whether it's safe or not, it is stigmatized by many people, and you will reduce your pool of possible buyers in any future sale.

I disagree. There are foolish buyers out there, but disqualifying a house for aluminum wiring is like disqualifying a house because the AC units or the roof are too old. I completely rewired a five bedroom home in 2019 for less than the cost of two AC units; easily less than a typical roof. The cost of repairing or replacing aluminum wiring is rarely a deal killer. Most rational home buyers can be talked off the ledge in 10 minutes.

Bernard

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

9 hours ago, Bernard said:

I disagree. There are foolish buyers out there, but disqualifying a house for aluminum wiring is like disqualifying a house because the AC units or the roof are too old. I completely rewired a five bedroom home in 2019 for less than the cost of two AC units; easily less than a typical roof. The cost of repairing or replacing aluminum wiring is rarely a deal killer. Most rational home buyers can be talked off the ledge in 10 minutes.

Bernard

STFU, and stop making sense, this site has nothing to do with sense, common or otherwise.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

Well, in this market, you'd probably want to try to negotiate what, $20k to be safe, to rewire an aluminum house.

Good luck with that, because there is a shit-ton of greater fool out there.

[CooterBrown 18002]

Well, in this market, you'd probably want to try to negotiate what, $20k to be safe, to rewire an aluminum house.
Good luck with that, because there is a shit-ton of greater fool out there.

Wut. In this market, the buyer is going to have to pay a $50K premium for vintage aluminum wiring.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

38 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Wut. In this market, the buyer is going to have to pay a $50K premium for vintage aluminum wiring.

Call it mid century modern wiring, and you can triple that...