Elite private schools and college admissions

[Sawbonz 27,578]

My daughter (no pics) just told me that the elite DFW privates had an abysmal acceptance rate at Ivy League schools, Stanford, Duke, and Vanderbilt. One of her friends going back to elementary was rejected by her top 3. She was accepted by her 4th choice, still a competitive out of state public, but this is a girl who was near the top of her class, multi sport varsity athlete, tons of extracurriculars  and close to perfect on sat and act. 
 

Is this a fluke or are we looking at a sea change in how prospective students are evaluated at these universities?

[Parliament 14,260]

The World needs ditch diggers too.

[Js1 85,409]

5 minutes ago, Parliament said:

The World needs ditch diggers too.

More like cam girls. She can always run for city council later 

[deadshank 24,653]

My nephew just went through all of this; however, he’s not in private school.  Top in his class at DC area high school.    Rejected by Harvard, Yale, Swarthmore (wtf?), Duke, Virginia Tech (wtf x 11th billion).   
 

Accepted by Stanford, Cornell, William and Mary, Vassar, UVA, Clemson, Tenn and SCar all with academic scholarship.  
 

Go figure.  

[deadshank 24,653]

6 minutes ago, Parliament said:

The World needs ditch diggers too.

Damn right.  Today I have a waterline to run at deer camp.  Send that girl over here. 

[Guest Lobo]

Outside of about a dozen well-known private schools, you have to remember that the admissions committees at schools like Stanford and Duke haven't heard of most of the "elite DFW privates."  No knock on the schools in the metroplex or all around Texas for that matter, I'm sure they're quite elite.  Just that colleges outside Texas' borders don't give a shit.  They keep tabs on a small group of nationally branded private boarding schools and that's about it.  They have incredibly in-depth rankings and charts of public schools because those are easy to get and those are widely considered to be objective and trustworthy.

We review applications, in Austin, from Austin students, from private schools like Saint Andrew's, Saint Michael's, and Regents.  And we still look at each other like, "Anybody know anything this high school?"  Obviously somebody on a UT or Rice or SMU or TCU committee is gonna know something about every large private school in Texas.  But somebody applying to Duke from Regents?  Their committee is just gonna google that school and just glean, "Okay, white people school with nice lacrosse fields.  Got it."  Private school ranking/summary databases exist but most committees don't trust them for obvious reasons.  

It's a flawed system.  Like everything else.  Aunt Becky had to get shanked in the yard for most of America to understand that.  

Edited April 2, 2022 by Lobo

[CooterBrown 18,014]

Those elite school have so much fuck you money at this point, they’re not admitting students for donations or networking access any longer.

As a result, navigating to the top of a large, diverse high school from a middle class or lower background is usually going to look better than navigating to the top of a private school with a cherry picked high achiever student body.

Everyone does sports and schools activities. What else is there on her application? Did she have any real volunteerism activities that aren’t school related? All the Ivys and other elites want kids that are engaged outside of school in making a difference in their community.

[Sawbonz 27,578]

12 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Outside of about a dozen well-known private schools, you have to remember that the admissions committees at schools like Stanford and Duke haven't heard of most of the "elite DFW privates."  No knock on the schools in the metroplex or all around Texas for that matter, I'm sure they're quite elite.  Just that colleges outside Texas' borders don't give a shit.  They keep tabs on a small group of nationally branded private boarding schools and that's about it.  They have incredibly in-depth rankings and charts of public schools because those are easy to get.  

We review applications, in Austin, from Austin students, from private schools like Saint Andrew's, Saint Michael's, and Regents.  And we still look at each other like, "Anybody know anything this high school?"  Obviously somebody on a UT or Rice or SMU or TCU committee is gonna know something about every large private school in Texas.  But somebody applying to Duke from Regents?  Their committee is just gonna google that school and just glean, "Okay, white people school with nice lacrosse fields.  Got it."  Private school ranking/summary databases exist but most committees don't trust them for obvious reasons.  

It's a flawed system.  Like everything else.  Aunt Becky had to get shanked in the yard for most of America to understand that.  

St marks, Jesuit,  hockaday and Ursuline consistently place their top students at top universities (or used to). Not sure what point you are trying to make. This year they have not, to a degree where staff have lost their jobs. 
 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Sawbonz

[Sawbonz 27,578]

1 minute ago, CooterBrown said:

As a result, navigating to the top of a large, diverse high school from a middle class or lower background is usually going to look better than navigating to the top of a private school with a cherry picked high achiever student body.

This is what I think (hope) is happening. And I do think Aunt Becky inadvertently had a lot to do with it. I also think that as younger people work their way up into decision making positions equity of opportunity is becoming more of a focus.
 

 

[Guest Lobo]

Then it's a one-year anomaly and largely anecdotal.  I've just noticed that public school reporting and rankings and quests for demographic diversity (including more kids from a broader pool or public high schools) are on the rise and easier to get.  Admissions teams remain skeptical of private school reporting and rankings.  Of course the top kids from any school, including the privates you mentioned, will get in at those great colleges.  But it's not because of the Texas private school they attended, it's because they're just smart as shit on paper and probably wowed them with essays/interviews.  

Speaking of anecdotal, that's all my experience is to be honest.  It's just a public school below the tier of the schools you're mentioning...but at UT...you'd be surprised at how little of a shit admissions/scholarship committees give about where the student went to high school.  It's certainly a factor, to be sure.  But it's more often, "Well, she was stuck in that crappy high school but can flourish at a place like UT" than "Oh, well he went to Saint Andrew's so UT will be a natural fit for him intellectually."  We review entire applications without even discussing the high school.  Again, it's important but doesn't carry the weight that the $100k spent on it may otherwise suggest.  

I dunno, I'm sure your daughter's friend will be just fine.  

edited:  CooterBrown pretty much nailed it.  Commuting from a rich suburb across to another rich suburb to attend an elite private school in Texas.  It just doesn't carry the wow factor it used to.  The student with the 1560 SAT from El Paso or the Valley, that's the one that gets us talking at the coffee break.  

Edited April 2, 2022 by Lobo

[52-80 19,162]

Tell her she can identify as 1/32th Pawnee

[Sawbonz 27,578]

She’s half Mexican

[South Austin 52,519]

Like, oh sure, he went to Harvard.

[SaucyJack 3,488]

My neighbor just told me his niece twice removed got her GED and was elected to the US Congress.

Universities might be a thing of the past in this country.

[LCHorn 2,621]

34 minutes ago, deadshank said:

My nephew just went through all of this; however, he’s not in private school.  Top in his class at DC area high school.    Rejected by Harvard, Yale, Swarthmore (wtf?), Duke, Virginia Tech (wtf x 11th billion).   
 

Accepted by Stanford, Cornell, William and Mary, Vassar, UVA, Clemson, Tenn and SCar all with academic scholarship.  
 

Go figure.  

I think @CooterBrown hit the nail on the head, but I’d add that I think overwhelming demand plus greater inclusion efforts are going to create random outcomes and that might account for the results of your nephew.  If an admissions committee is going to ignore SAT scores then the typical high achiever criteria isn’t going to match as much between universities.  

[tx 3 putt 77,060]

Top universities aren’t growing, the population is 

[immamac 42,865]

Top private schools have admissions counselors that have relationships with the admissions teams at these universities. The private schools you are talking about are for poor people. 

[Sawbonz 27,578]

Mark Cuban is poor?

[CooterBrown 18,014]

Mark Cuban is poor?

[alincoln 2,381]

54 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

She’s half Mexican

Not very helpful anymore particularly if she comes from a relatively wealthy family.  

[TurkeyChew 383]

I also read this is the first year that some Ivy League schools have chosen to not publicize their admission rate %. I wonder if there is a correlation there. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by TurkeyChew

[Guest Lobo]

^
That's true in some cases, but not really as impactful as they think it'll be.  Their matriculation rates for freshman classes are easily gleaned.  You can sample size based on literally centuries of data to know their application pool was in terms of gross numbers, based on numbers volunteered on social media/guidance counselor reports from a few hundred/thousand high schools across the nation.  The margin of error will be significant, but it's really not that hard to figure out the acceptance rates at any college...particularly ones mentioned as frequently as the Ivy League schools.  

Top notch private schools on both coasts are realizing they can get academically well qualified students from public schools that add to not just demographic diversity, but diversity of background, diversity of upbringing, and diversity of thought.  It's not a mystery.  They'll still take half their class from the same dozen prep schools, but it's also more interesting, and frankly easier, to take more and more from just regular ole' public schools provided the kid is a shining star badass.  Again, just my anecdotal experience but it's a lotta years of anecdotal experience...I just don't see an admissions committee at Stanford looking like that cat reading the WSJ meme, "I should get more kids from high-end private schools in University Park, TX."  1 or 2 will find their way to Stanford regardless, otherwise Stanford isn't gonna expend the energy to find more, they got 100x more public schools to scout with limited resources.  

The real correlation is the boom of "college admissions consultants" that have conveniently popped up near private schools like this.  There's a cottage industry I wish I would have invented.

[Doc Sam Beckett 5,793]

1 hour ago, deadshank said:

 

Accepted by Clemson

Go figure.  

Edited April 2, 2022 by Doc Sam Beckett
Cholas 4 life

[Newdoc 3,448]

More importantly is the question of how well the private school is preparing your student/child for higher education and the real world?  Most likely they will get into a very reputable school with a good high school CV.  It's no longer a ticket punch into ivy and maybe that's a blessing in the end. Besides STEM ivy type schools, the liberal arts education at the elite universities is now wack and not in line with what students need to become successful in everyday life.

We can hope public education it is at least advancing the students in public school who don't have the means to go to private school or augment their public high school education. And they have the tools to succeed once they get there but I seriously have my doubts since the pandemic started.

[Guest Lobo]

5 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

More importantly is the question of how well the private school is preparing your student/child for higher education and the real world?  Most likely they will get into a very reputable school with a good high school CV.  It's no longer a ticket punch into ivy and maybe that's a blessing in the end. Besides STEM ivy type schools, the liberal arts education at the elite universities is now wack and not in line with what students need to become successful in everyday life.

We can hope public education it is at least advancing the students in public school who don't have the means to go to private school or augment their public high school education. And they have the tools to succeed once they get there but I seriously have my doubts since the pandemic started.

If you look at the Top 20 rankings for Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math (and I take those rankings with a huge grain of salt)...Ivy League Schools are not terribly noteworthy in those four fields (and you can throw in Vanderbilt, Duke, Northwestern, et. al. in there as well).  Aside from a few outliers like Harvard Natural Sciences and Princeton Maths.  STEM just isn't a massive focus at Ivy League schools (and their contemporaries) and may never be.  Because they believe, contrary to your assertion that it doesn't educate students 'to become successful in everyday life', that a more well-rounded education based on critical thinking and research is more crucial to long-term success. 

Higher education doesn't have to be binary, you don't have be a socially awkward engineer that can't write a paragraph or hold a conversation to save his life.  And you can graduate with a liberal arts degree and hold a leadership position in high finance.  It's already a divisive line of thinking in higher education and it's very much permeating down to high school.  You see an applicant with a 1560 SAT, Top 2%, first chair cello...they can't look you in the eye and their essay reads like it was written by an ESL bot.  That kid'll make a fine engineer one day, they don't need my help.  I want the student from the mediocre high school who had to vigorously seek out resources.  And if there weren't any, the kid invented them to help out those behind him.  Sure she's only 1370 SAT, top 8%, but she wants to study Plan II & Computer Science.  And she can give a passionate pitch about anything.  Anyway, another thread for another time.  But to summarize---these great universities just don't give as much of a shit about scouting anymore...there's no longer any shortage of smart, stem-focused kids from private schools.  They're going around the country to find the other ones, the ones that need a little investment.  

It's like the Top 10% rule (now really, effectively the Top 7%).  It was incepted to bring more rural kids to UT's campus.  But it had quite another unintended effect plus what it did to our wholistic/out-of-state/international recruiting.  Stanford knows kids from elite DFW private high school kids will be just fine no matter what their admissions committee decides.  That's not why they meet.  They meet to figure out how to get the 1370SAT girl I mentioned, because they know she's going to reach back for the rest of 'em.  

[Newdoc 3,448]

2 minutes ago, Lobo said:

They're going around the country to find the other ones, the ones that need a little investment.  

And I don't think you can quantify that those elite universities prepare these kids better than your state Tier 1 universities aside from connections upon graduation and riding a hundred year old reputation into grad schools and snobbery into the hiring process because a name looks good on paper. 

 

I completely agree that a liberal or classical education is important to build upon the STEM fields but if you are starting this after high school graduation, you are starting too late. It can be done in college but most kids are going into school already completing their "liberal arts" portion of their education through AP and community college dual credit courses. The STEM fields then become more polarized in higher education because the students have schedules filled with 12 hours of science/engineering/math per semester and are done in 3 years. AND the public high schools in Texas now do a piss poor job of starting the liberal (how to think) part of a student's education.

[TwiceHorn 31,495]

I wonder if that holds true for the really elite privates, like St. Paul's, Choate, Exeter, Andover, etc. that are historically major feeders for Ivies.

St. Marks and Hockaday are a rung below those in terms of eliteness, but probably on par academically.  One of the key things being that at the tippy-top, academically, they can and do run truly college level stuff for a handful of achievers.  Both have plenty of wealthy dumbshits, though.

Ursuline and Jesuit are a rung below those.

I'm going to guess that a new or renewed focus on economic advantage/disadvantage in admissions, over pure ethnicity and academics, is starting to take a toll on private schools.

And, Cooter is probably right that making "legacy" type admissions solely to obtain financial advantage, which I think historically accounted for elite private admissions, is falling to the wayside, possibly expedited by the admissions scandals and prosecutions.

Edited April 2, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Bateshorn 9,928]

I have many thoughts about this, as somebody who is wrapping up Boy#2 in college apps. Boy 1 went to an elite private hs, Boy 2 a magnet public hs. I also went to an elite-ish East Coast school. 
 

The first thing you have to realize is the keys to the kingdom schools (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIT, Princeton) is everyone, EVERYONE, unless you are the child of a President, is a lottery school.  It’s just that fucking hard to get in. There’s a whole second tier of schools: Columbia, Williams, Pomona, Duke, UCLA, Berkeley, Northwestern, etc. are nearly as bad. 

Your child being a girl of privilege also hurts. Girls tend to have far more competitive applications than boys and also apply in MUCH larger numbers, so the applicant pool is larger and more competitive.  Boys just aren’t going to colleges at really any academic level as much as girls. schools are picky about their girls and they let it less qualified boys lest every campus look like Smith. 
 

Outside of Asians in STEM, the most competitive applicant is East Coast Becky: Captain is the Field Hockey Team, top ten in her class at competitive hs, Student council president, Drama, Orchestra, tons od volunteer, etc. East Coast Becky, Southern Madison, West Coast Lily fucking swamp elite admissions. 

2 hours ago, deadshank said:

My nephew just went through all of this; however, he’s not in private school.  Top in his class at DC area high school.    Rejected by Harvard, Yale, Swarthmore (wtf?), Duke, Virginia Tech (wtf x 11th billion).   
 

Accepted by Stanford, Cornell, William and Mary, Vassar, UVA, Clemson, Tenn and SCar all with academic scholarship.  
 

Go figure.  

There’s a bit of random pick from a hat effect at the end of the day. Also: Swathmore and VT are hard as fuck to get into.  VT is now considered an elite STEM school on par with Georgia Tech and MIT.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Bateshorn

[tx 3 putt 77,060]

Unpopular opinion, it’s mattering less and less where you graduate from. It helps on that first job, but after that meh. Some schools have much stronger alumni groups than others. Aggie Mays alumni in Houston is a strong group in helping each other out. 

[Deej 76,830]

2 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

Those elite school have so much fuck you money at this point, they’re not admitting students for donations or networking access any longer.

OP should try Grand Lakes University. 

 

[DaggerHorns 3,085]

6 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

Unpopular opinion, it’s mattering less and less where you graduate from. It helps on that first job, but after that meh. Some schools have much stronger alumni groups than others. Aggie Mays alumni in Houston is a strong group in helping each other out. 

This is true. They do help each other. You just have to suffer from a lifetime of disappointment, wear a weird ring, have the vast majority of society refer to you with disgust, and yell like you were the victim of a non-consensual anal probe, but yeah, strong network.

[Bateshorn 9,928]

9 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

Unpopular opinion, it’s mattering less and less where you graduate from. It helps on that first job, but after that meh. Some schools have much stronger alumni groups than others. Aggie Mays alumni in Houston is a strong group in helping each other out. 

This is 100% not true depending on your career path. In Finance or Elite Law, where you go to school makes a HUGE difference in your graduate school options. Try getting in Wharton with a degree from Texas State vs UT or Rice.

[tx 3 putt 77,060]

3 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

This is 100% not true depending on your career path. In Finance or Elite Law, where you go to school makes a HUGE difference in your graduate school options. Try getting in Wharton with a degree from Texas State vs UT or Rice.

think about how small a number you’re talking about but you’re 100% right 

[tx 3 putt 77,060]

8 minutes ago, Deej said:

OP should try Grand Lakes University. 

 

donate a building, that goes a looooong way with all Schools 

[Deej 76,830]

In all fairness, it was a really big check. 

[Guest Lobo]

Nothing like a little Monkey Business,  hmmmmmmmmm?

[South Austin 52,519]

36 minutes ago, Deej said:

In all fairness, it was a really big check. 

Thank you, Dean Martin.

[Tailgate 3,022]

It’s hard to deny elite privates don’t help some…but the student and application are key.

IMO

Been through this process twice and for any parents reading…the application/essay are a big part of some of the top schools…because at most of them they are looking at similar grades and test scores on applications.

My youngest was stuck on an essay topic and we found a great essay coach. I’m confident it helped her get her top choice. 

To find out an essay could be worth as much as four years of great HS achievement is enough to make sure that whole application/essay process is as “awesome” as your student.

Good luck to those in that process.
 

[Guest Lobo]

For the record, I did not derail this thread into a quote-a-thornton-thon" from 'Back to School.'  But I am happily participating.  

But I think this is an anecdotal example of what's happening at a more macro level in higher ed.  

The trade organization, CASE, has written tomes about this lately.  The college enrollment boom in the 80's/90's, the children of the G.I. Bill guys?  They're going to college in higher numbers.  Maybe they're not majoring in what you'd like them to, but they're going.  Also due to easy money to attend the ever-more-costly institutions (because of woeful underfunding by state legislators, but another story).  But the legacy attendees, the traditional 'feeder schools' of elite publics and some private high schools...it's changed the landscape of admissions.  15 years later, I'm just now seeing the legacy white families of UT System schools finally accepting that the diversity of background (not necessarily race) is a healthy thing for the colleges around the state.  We may not like their majors, we may not like the student loan burden, but in the end---people that experience life on a 4-year university, end up being better citizens.  Just the way it goes.

[Bateshorn 9,928]

1 minute ago, Tailgate said:

It’s hard to deny elite privates don’t help some…but the student and application are key.

IMO

Been through this process twice and for any parents reading…the application/essay are a big part of some of the top schools…because at most of them they are looking at similar grades and test scores on applications.

My youngest was stuck on an essay topic and we found a great essay coach. I’m confident it helped her get her top choice. 

To find out an essay could be worth as much as four years of great HS achievement is enough to make sure that whole application/essay process is as “awesome” as your student.

Good luck to those in that process.
 

Yeah. My youngest got in everywhere he applied except University of Washington, which is Test and Recommendation Blind.  All  they care about is essays, grades, and extracurricular/leadership. He admitted he fucked off  in the essay for UDub. .  

[956 Worldwide 34,715]

1 hour ago, tx 3 putt said:

Unpopular opinion, it’s mattering less and less where you graduate from. It helps on that first job, but after that meh. Some schools have much stronger alumni groups than others. Aggie Mays alumni in Houston is a strong group in helping each other out. 

Successful admission into the very elite schools is the most important part of your entire educational career.  What you do once you are there, short of spectacular implosion, is entirely perfunctory.  You’ve shown you are the type of person who gets into an elite school and that’s really about 90 percent of the benefit of matriculating there. 

[immamac 42,865]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Successful admission into the very elite schools is the most important part of your entire educational career.  What you do once you are there, short of spectacular implosion, is entirely perfunctory.  You’ve shown you are the type of person who gets into an elite school and that’s really about 90 percent of the benefit of matriculating there. 

Which is why college is stupid and school in general is a big circle jerk that is completely worthless.

[956 Worldwide 34,715]

Just now, immamac said:

Which is why college is stupid and school in general is a big circle jerk that is completely worthless.

It’s not worthless at all, it’s extremely valuable especially if you are mediocre.  Elite private universities are more sorting mechanisms for the right kind of people than they are places to get an education.  Getting sorted into the “type of person who gets into an Ivy” pile is a massive head start over the people who don’t get sorted into that pile.  

[956 Worldwide 34,715]

I should add that of the 10 percent value that isn’t “getting admitted” about 8 percent is not what you learn in the classroom but rather the manners you pick up.  The specifics have changed over time but whats valuable is being immersed in how the elite talk, act, and think so you can fit in. 
 

 

[immamac 42,865]

5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s not worthless at all, it’s extremely valuable especially if you are mediocre.  Elite private universities are more sorting mechanisms for the right kind of people than they are places to get an education.  Getting sorted into the “type of person who gets into an Ivy” pile is a massive head start over the people who don’t get sorted into that pile.  

I don't agree, but that's fine too. I think there is some benefit for people who want to get into STEM fields, because there is no other way to get the practical experience necessary without university funding labs and classes. 

There's a lot of successful well integrated, contributing to society types that never went to school or went to a whatever school. In fact I just read an article in some business journal about women from Texas State and their business school being among the highest average paid from any business school in the country. 

Ill take a clever and productive person from whatever background over some asshole from an ivy or top bschool all day every day. I happen to be in a position to be making those kinds of decisions too. 

[956 Worldwide 34,715]

2 minutes ago, immamac said:

I don't agree, but that's fine too. I think there is some benefit for people who want to get into STEM fields, because there is no other way to get the practical experience necessary without university funding labs and classes. 

There's a lot of successful well integrated, contributing to society types that never went to school or went to a whatever school. In fact I just read an article in some business journal about women from Texas State and their business school being among the highest average paid from any business school in the country. 

Ill take a clever and productive person from whatever background over some asshole from an ivy or top bschool all day every day. I happen to be in a position to be making those kinds of decisions too. 

If it’s not clear, I am skeptical to the point of hostility when it comes to “elite” private universities outside of some places like MIT or CalTech.  Especially when it comes to some of their endowments versus student aid, it’s an obscenity and unjustifiable. 

That said, if you’re given a menu of qualifications to face the world with as a 22 year old, picking Texas State over Yale for your diploma is the equivalent of turning down a cheat code. 

[tx 3 putt 77,060]

26 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Successful admission into the very elite schools is the most important part of your entire educational career.  What you do once you are there, short of spectacular implosion, is entirely perfunctory.  You’ve shown you are the type of person who gets into an elite school and that’s really about 90 percent of the benefit of matriculating there. 

 

getting in is the hardest part of an ivy league school ?  well maybe paying for it, is #1

[Amos Moses 795]

She’s half Mexican

They didn’t know what to think of her
‘Til she sang Feliz Navidad
Feliz Navidad

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

My daughter (no pics) just told me that the elite DFW privates had an abysmal acceptance rate at Ivy League schools, Stanford, Duke, and Vanderbilt. One of her friends going back to elementary was rejected by her top 3. She was accepted by her 4th choice, still a competitive out of state public, but this is a girl who was near the top of her class, multi sport varsity athlete, tons of extracurriculars  and close to perfect on sat and act. 
 

Is this a fluke or are we looking at a sea change in how prospective students are evaluated at these universities?

The actual  high school has about zero to do with whether an applicant gets accepted at elite schools or not. Rigorous course load, elite results on those courses, strong test scores on SAT/ACT, and  having contributing factors( ECs, community work, job after school) are the gatekeepers.

"Near the top" needs to be top 5% in class.

"close to perfect on SAT/ ACT" needs to be 1450 at a minimum or 32 on ACT.

Edited April 2, 2022 by slorch

[Incredulity 11,675]

5 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

She’s half Mexican

Top half?  Bottom half?  Left half??