Elite private schools and college admissions

[Fudge Nuggets 19209]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I taught legal research and writing as a TQ at UT law nearly 30 years ago. To train us before the school year started, they had us review memo samples from “provisional” students - people who got into UT, but had taken some sort of summer prep course where they did some practice writing.
I remember reading two memos and then asking our lead instructor if these people were really admitted to law school, and if so, can we revoke it? I was writing better than that freshman year of high school, and I’m not exaggerating. They were AWFUL. Incoherent, full of bad grammar, spelling, and punctuation.
Then, I started practicing law, and read a few opposing briefs that were similarly terrible. It made me realize that no matter how much I shoulda doubt myself or my abilities, I was at least a damned good writer….or at least I was way better than the multitude of shitty writers out there. I realized that writing is a skill that has to be developed by lots of practice AND good teachers and editors (of which I had many over the years).
A whole lot more jobs than you might think require good written communication skills, whether it’s instructions to subordinates or reports/requests to superiors. If we fail to prep people to do so with competence, we are setting them up to fail.

This is why those of us with real degrees roll our eyes and laugh when law people talk about how difficult law school is. If it was so difficult there wouldn’t be eleventy billion lawyers running around chasing ambulances. 

[Bateshorn 9928]

I forgot to mention: we did not hire a consultant.  When I find something to obsess over, I do it to exhaustion. That was college research. So, we had that part nailed down. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Bateshorn

[Aqua Buddha 14599]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

Years ago we passed on a well connected Hill staffer because they bombed the writing sample. We hired a young woman out of college who could write, with little political experience.  I knew we could train her up.
 

She’s in management now because she also excels at that, but first and foremost, we need strong communication skills.  She was also exceptionally easy on the eyes (no pics, cause I don’t want to get fired).

I've been in corporate America now for 20 years or so but my original degree was in Political Science and I'm glad.  It taught me how to write, argue, and think critically.  So many people simply can't write.

[Aqua Buddha 14599]

On the gender imbalance in higher ed, count me in the camp that thinks boys are just lazy.  They'd rather play video games and live with their parents.  Not much motivation to meet girls, either.  That was my reason for existence at that age.  I wanted to get girls and the better I made myself, the better girls I'd get.  I don't understand young men today, to be honest.

[CooterBrown 18015]

On the gender imbalance in higher ed, count me in the camp that thinks boys are just lazy.  They'd rather play video games and live with their parents.  Not much motivation to meet girls, either.  That was my reason for existence at that age.  I wanted to get girls and the better I made myself, the better girls I'd get.  I don't understand young men today, to be honest.

A lot of the blame can be put on the parents who enable that behavior. You either got to college or get a job and an apartment. Either way, you’re out of the house come the fall after high school graduation.

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

41 minutes ago, Lobo said:

What the hell is the V&E Prom?  or is it one of those things I don't wanna know?  I assume we're talking about the law firm that I've used for 15 years?  

Is it like a cult that drinks blood?  Or?  

It is big soirée usually held at the Houston Fine Arts Museum to entertain clients and judges. All former V&E lawyers are invited since they tend to use V&E as outside counsel. It was annual until the Great Recession and then moved to every other year and apparently every 5 years now.

[Not a cat 5660]

It's an excuse to put on a tux, get drunk and wait in line to kiss Harry Reasoner's ass (or whomever the current managing partner is).  Not knocking Reasoner, but you'd think experienced lawyers would be a bit more subtle about the brown nosing.

[South Austin 52523]

Prom got to be pretty indulgent by my last year at V&E. I recall hearing the budget for that party and it was ridiculous.

[Captainant 27690]

19 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

On the gender imbalance in higher ed, count me in the camp that thinks boys are just lazy.  They'd rather play video games and live with their parents.  Not much motivation to meet girls, either.  That was my reason for existence at that age.  I wanted to get girls and the better I made myself, the better girls I'd get.  I don't understand young men today, to be honest.

 

15 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

A lot of the blame can be put on the parents who enable that behavior. You either got to college or get a job and an apartment. Either way, you’re out of the house come the fall after high school graduation.

There is a major shift happening in American demographics right now. Jobs and pay are significantly more scare than when y'all were young men, and costs across the board are higher. If you're just getting into college now, the country has moved from one crisis to another and consistently reached lower lows than before. And there's even fewer safety nets than there used to be.

I think lots of young men (and young folks generally) are internalizing the shit they've been watching their parents eat for the last 15 someodd years. 

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

Prom got to be pretty indulgent by my last year at V&E. I recall hearing the budget for that party and it was ridiculous.

Jackson’s catering bill being 7 figures wouldn’t surprise me.

Last one I was at had the Cirque style aerialists in the lobby. Maybe at the Natural Science Museum?

[Not a cat 5660]

I think with tinder and the general hookup culture, it's easier than ever for young guys to get laid.  If I could have worked an hourly wage job, played video games while smoking weed all day and still gotten laid, I'm pretty sure I might have reconsidered all that grad school debt.

Tldr- back in my day we had to work for pussy.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

4 hours ago, Js1 said:

The amount of people who can’t write well or think critically in the work place boggles the mind. 

Uhhh… it’s right so good and stuff….

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Daughter was a French literature major at William & Mary with minors in Political science, and had a sweet job lined up at Capital One before she graduated.   A Liberal arts degree is a valuable one if you use it correctly.

 

The movie Max Dugan Returns

Jason Robards plays Max Dugan the Returning, wayward, father.

He , and his grandson, played by Mathew Broderick are discussing college degrees.

Max Dugan suggests philosophy

Mathew Broderick:   Can you make money with a degree in philosophy Mr. Dugan?

Max Dugan:  Oh yeah, if you have the right one .

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Onboard 2.0

[South Austin 52523]

Mac Dugan Returns. Holy shit, I loved that movie as a kid!

[Helobious 9464]

1 hour ago, CooterBrown said:

A lot of the blame can be put on the parents who enable that behavior. You either got to college or get a job and an apartment. Either way, you’re out of the house come the fall after high school graduation.

I don’t think there’s much wrong with getting a job and saving for awhile before getting your own place, especially in this day and age. I’ve seen people that moved out before they were ready and it fucks them over down the line financially.
On the other hand a couple friends of mine that I thought were losers because they were living at home for awhile are already individual homeowners at 26 & 27. 

[Guest Lobo]

Max Dugan was a great movie.  I loved it as a kid.  

The imbalance, that's growing alarmingly, between male and females on college campuses has been discussed on other threads.  But it carries with it much darker implications than just getting ass.  But we can save it for then. 

Was the V&E prom this past week or two in Houston?  Because the M.P. of the Austin office, my friend and also my attorney, was 'off the grid' for a few days.  Calls me back, saying he was in Houston, and nobody else in his office (exec asst or his immediate report associates) had heard from him.  He don't look it, but the guy can out-party that entire firm and that's saying something.  

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

3 hours ago, Not a cat said:

It's an excuse to put on a tux, get drunk and wait in line to kiss Harry Reasoner's ass (or whomever the current managing partner is).  Not knocking Reasoner, but you'd think experienced lawyers would be a bit more subtle about the brown nosing.

Gunners gonna gun until made partner.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

2 hours ago, Helobious said:

I don’t think there’s much wrong with getting a job and saving for awhile before getting your own place, especially in this day and age. I’ve seen people that moved out before they were ready and it fucks them over down the line financially.
On the other hand a couple friends of mine that I thought were losers because they were living at home for awhile are already individual homeowners at 26 & 27. 

Living on your own also teaches you responsibilities and other lessons. If the idea is just about money in the bank, then a kid should never move out the parents home. You can almost always beat returns that a house gives you.

some parents also do too much for their kids even at a young age. Letting the kids struggle at a task or assignment teaches them resilience and how to overcome an obstacle. I work with a fair number of millennials. Gen X myself. Some of the millennials are hard working and get shit done. Others, especially men, just don’t know how to solve a problem even if that is practically their job title. They just wait for someone else to do it, which normally happens.

[TwiceHorn 31512]

7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I taught legal research and writing as a TQ at UT law nearly 30 years ago. To train us before the school year started, they had us review memo samples from “provisional” students - people who got into UT, but had taken some sort of summer prep course where they did some practice writing.
I remember reading two memos and then asking our lead instructor if these people were really admitted to law school, and if so, can we revoke it? I was writing better than that freshman year of high school, and I’m not exaggerating. They were AWFUL. Incoherent, full of bad grammar, spelling, and punctuation.
Then, I started practicing law, and read a few opposing briefs that were similarly terrible. It made me realize that no matter how much I shoulda doubt myself or my abilities, I was at least a damned good writer….or at least I was way better than the multitude of shitty writers out there. I realized that writing is a skill that has to be developed by lots of practice AND good teachers and editors (of which I had many over the years).
A whole lot more jobs than you might think require good written communication skills, whether it’s instructions to subordinates or reports/requests to superiors. If we fail to prep people to do so with competence, we are setting them up to fail.

That's odd.  As an engineer, who had picked up a nasty passive voice habit in writing reports (the accelerometer was secured to the propellor shaft and readings were taken at half-second intervals) in undergrad, I felt completely defective as a writer in first year of law school.  But I know goddam right that I spelled correctly, used proper punctuation, and wrote complete sentences.  They just were harder to read and less persuasive.   And I am fairly sure most of my classmates were as good or better writers than I.

I suppose some majors, i.e. business, write even less than engineers.

Anyway, I took all the extra writing classes I could and Terri Leclerq helped me immensely.

[Mach 1 1677]

We’re about a year away from starting this process. Based on this thread, and other feedback we’ve received, the premier Cal state schools were scratched from the list. Seemed like a waste of time.

But just found out my daughter was accepted into a summer immersion program at UCLA as a HS sophomore. They take AP classes and live in a dorm for a month. 

Anyone have experience with this? Does it help with applications? I looked around and apparently Michigan and Texas have similar programs.

[dcbc 14496]

5 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

So many people simply can't write.

Most people can't write, if we're honest. 

[dcbc 14496]

3 hours ago, South Austin said:

Mac Dugan Returns. Holy shit, I loved that movie as a kid!

Just caught it again for I can remember how many times.  So great.

 

Up yours, Whitkenstein!

[luke duke 6413]

I know this website is a lot of engineers and STEM majors, but there are a lot of jobs that require/need liberal arts education.  The ability to write is an incredibly valuable skill, and one that is hard to find. I have to deal with a lot of people with terrible writing skills.  It’s core function of my job. 

[luke duke 6413]

Posted the wrong pic

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Just now, luke duke said:

Posted the wrong pic

"Diagram that sentence."

- Mrs. Bock

[closetohumping 17455]

What is considered elite?

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

1 minute ago, closetohumping said:

What is considered elite?

OP meant expensive.

[fattyflattie 4639]

19 hours ago, Helobious said:

On the other hand a couple friends of mine that I thought were losers because they were living at home for awhile are already individual homeowners at 26 & 27. 

I can’t think of but one guy (who traveled about 315-330 days/yr for his first 5 years) who didn’t have a house by the time they were 27/28 yo. Most were closer to 24/25. We built our first at 28 but was more of a “second home” (not a cheapie to get started and build equity for resale of the house you really want) and I was behind the 8 ball amongst my peers. Dude that traveled came back and bought a massive house, part of a bar, and some other things in cash. Oh, and a bunch of really cheap stock in TSLA.    

*Im a millennial/border X age guy. Also, not in Austin 

[Bateshorn 9928]

The one core truth of the Surl is everyone eventually shows their ass.

[Helobious 9464]

49 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I can’t think of but one guy (who traveled about 315-330 days/yr for his first 5 years) who didn’t have a house by the time they were 27/28 yo. Most were closer to 24/25. We built our first at 28 but was more of a “second home” (not a cheapie to get started and build equity for resale of the house you really want) and I was behind the 8 ball amongst my peers. Dude that traveled came back and bought a massive house, part of a bar, and some other things in cash. Oh, and a bunch of really cheap stock in TSLA.    

*Im a millennial/border X age guy. Also, not in Austin 

Probably demographic related. I’m millennial/border gen Z. Almost all my friends are hispanics & most of them didn’t really go to college or have yet to finish. Most also kind of grew up poor, unlike me.

[SimonBolivar 10958]

1 hour ago, closetohumping said:

What is considered elite?

Whatever school each poster went to and above in the rankings.

[fattyflattie 4639]

5 minutes ago, Helobious said:

didn’t really go to college or have yet to finish.

Yeah that would be a major difference. I was speaking to the first group of guys right out of school that I worked with. 

[Deej 76858]

5 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

The one core truth of the Surl is everyone eventually shows their ass.

And the occasional one wants you to get a really good view. 

@NowThis

[South Austin 52523]

6 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

The one core truth of the Surl is everyone eventually shows their ass.

I missed that requirement in the message board rules.  Guess I better step up the squats.

[luke duke 6413]

"Diagram that sentence."
- Mrs. Bock

She’s dead now.

[Guest]

On 4/10/2022 at 1:22 PM, Aqua Buddha said:

I've been in corporate America now for 20 years or so but my original degree was in Political Science and I'm glad.  It taught me how to write, argue, and think critically.  So many people simply can't write.

a couple of different times throughout my career, folks have identified my writing while it was intended to be 'anonymous.'  "There's Slorch's answer with the words we don't know."

" No, motherfuckers...um...team,  'I assumed my colleagues, a vast majority of whom have degrees and multiple roles in leading other people; would not be blown away by polysyllabic words that happen to be reasonably common to anyone reading above a 7th grade level or so.'"

It's frustrating and tiresome AF.

[luke duke 6413]

What is considered elite?

I* am.

* top 100 graduate per post #112

[SimonBolivar 10958]

On 4/10/2022 at 5:26 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

They just wait for someone else to do it, which normally happens.

Are you hiring?

[SimonBolivar 10958]

On 4/11/2022 at 5:50 PM, slorch said:

a couple of different times throughout my career, folks have identified my writing while it was intended to be 'anonymous.'  "There's Slorch's answer with the words we don't know."

" No, motherfuckers...um...team,  'I assumed my colleagues, a vast majority of whom have degrees and multiple roles in leading other people; would not be blown away by polysyllabic words that happen to be reasonably common to anyone reading above a 7th grade level or so.'"

It's frustrating and tiresome AF.

I had a top level executive at my company that made me review her emails before she sent them out for 5 years. A great boss that got shit done but she couldn't complete a sentence.

[CooterBrown 18015]

I just started reading this book based on a recommendation of some parents who have gone through the college search recently.

50 pages in and my gut reaction is fuck all these schools.

 

Paraphrasing a conversation at the admissions table at Emory:

"Yeah, she has straight As and took every AP class. She's stellar!  However, her extracurricular activities don't support her stated desire to be a neurosurgeon. How can you not do any neurosurgery activities when you want to be a neurosurgeon!?!? Admission denied."

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by CooterBrown

[Brew 3049]

We’re going to go ahead and knock out some tours this summer after thinking through the process. I assumed everyone was back live, but she’s doing Michigan, University of Chicago, and UNC this summer and had planned on Northwestern but it’s still virtual.

[Bateshorn 9928]

2 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

I just started reading this book based on a recommendation of some parents who have gone through the college search recently.

50 pages in and my gut reaction is fuck all these schools.

 

Paraphrasing a conversation at the admissions table at Emory:

"Yeah, she has straight As and took every AP class. She's stellar!  However, her extracurricular activities don't support her stated desire to be a neurosurgeon. How can you not do any neurosurgery activities when you want to be a neurosurgeon!?!? Admission denied."

 

I mean, Emory had 32000 applications and let in 3200, of which 1500 enrolled.  It's that fucking selective, and they get choosy like that.  The two pieces of advice that have stuck with me:  The Davidson admissions rep said, essentially, "We know you aren't really focusing on the 8-10 extra curriculars you are listing, and frankly, its a bit off putting.  We'd prefer you showed a real passion for 1 or 2 things and incorporated that into your app"  and the my eldest councilor talked about having an app with an "edge."  Well rounded kids tend to roll off the admissions table. You can't be everything to everyone.  Find something that will make the app stick.

2 hours ago, Brew said:

We’re going to go ahead and knock out some tours this summer after thinking through the process. I assumed everyone was back live, but she’s doing Michigan, University of Chicago, and UNC this summer and had planned on Northwestern but it’s still virtual.

I have no doubt your kid is a genius, but I beg you:  Please help them develop a tiered list so they aren't one of those poor high achieving kids that gets rejected from 8 out of 9 schools they apply to because they are all lottery/impossible to get into.  Pick a few schools that might not be ultra high tier names so your kid gets some acceptances early on in the process. Watching some of my son's friends just go through an avalanche of rejections before eventually going to UMD is just soul crushing.

[WBT 20643]

The idea that you need a liberal arts degree to write effectively in the corporate world is strange to me.  If you just read a book now and then, things tend to rub off.

Edited April 25, 2022 by WBT

[Samson's Wig 3194]

On 4/8/2022 at 11:01 AM, Aqua Buddha said:

There are a lot of demographic at play in the college universe.  Millenials and Get Z are large generations so there is plenty of demand for college slots.  However, beginning in 2008 a baby bust started and never improved.  Kids born in 2008 will be 18 in 2026.  After that point I suspect you'll be able to get into anywhere and some of these smaller schools will start having financial problems.  

With kids who came along after 2008, I sure as hell hope you're right.

[Brew 3049]

2 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

I have no doubt your kid is a genius, but I beg you:  Please help them develop a tiered list so they aren't one of those poor high achieving kids that gets rejected from 8 out of 9 schools they apply to because they are all lottery/impossible to get into.  Pick a few schools that might not be ultra high tier names so your kid gets some acceptances early on in the process. Watching some of my son's friends just go through an avalanche of rejections before eventually going to UMD is just soul crushing.

She has her guarantees in place, so she’s shooting for the moon on most of the others with a few middle grounds mixed in. She’s a junior next year, so we decided to hit the hardest ones to get into this summer so she could go ahead and show interest, meet with admissions, get involved in some of the things they have going on for prospective students, work on early admittance (thanks for that thought process by the way) components since she has a solid baseline test score and can work on getting a couple more points from here on out, etc. Then she can visit the others during the school year and into her senior year that are on the easier tiers. Right now we’re fighting a battle with her to try and get her to understand that she needs to look at some smaller schools, that these larger ones are going to be a little overwhelming coming out of the small private school background. She’s focused on the “lists” of psychology schools in areas she likes though and hasn’t moved past the large institutions. It’s also difficult to randomly come up with smaller schools that make sense, although she is going to look at a few around Chicago and the Raleigh area as that is her two main focuses.

[USCATX 1078]

On 4/10/2022 at 6:38 PM, Mach 1 said:

We’re about a year away from starting this process. Based on this thread, and other feedback we’ve received, the premier Cal state schools were scratched from the list. Seemed like a waste of time.

But just found out my daughter was accepted into a summer immersion program at UCLA as a HS sophomore. They take AP classes and live in a dorm for a month. 

Anyone have experience with this? Does it help with applications? I looked around and apparently Michigan and Texas have similar programs.

UCLA facilities and student-faculty ratio are trash.  I guess if you’re in state it might be worth it, but otherwise you’re paying USC money for a less personalized experience when you factor in financial aid. I had a roommate transfer there for economic reasons (in state tuition) and he confirmed what I experienced on my tour.  
 

On the original question I also don’t think state schools care if you attend their summer programs. 

[boilerhorn 1393]

9 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

"Yeah, she has straight As and took every AP class. She's stellar!  However, her extracurricular activities don't support her stated desire to be a neurosurgeon. How can you not do any neurosurgery activities when you want to be a neurosurgeon!?!? Admission denied."

And the types of extracurricular activities that might prepare you for a career as a neurosurgeon could land you in jail.

 

6 hours ago, WBT said:

The idea that you need a liberal arts degree to write effectively in the corporate world is strange to me.  If you just read a book now and then, things tend to rub off.

In his memoir, On Writing, Stephen King notes, "If you want to become a writer, you must do two things above all others: read a lot and write a lot."  King notes that tends to write about 2x what actually gets published.  He also disdains adverbs.  Paraphrased: Only use them in dialogue, on special occasions, and maybe not even then.  I recommend On Writing, fwiw.

 

1 hour ago, USCATX said:

On the original question I also don’t think state schools care if you attend their summer programs. 

I tend to agree, but it might help if you are an out-of-state resident willing to pay full freight.

 

On 4/11/2022 at 5:50 PM, slorch said:

a couple of different times throughout my career, folks have identified my writing while it was intended to be 'anonymous.'  "There's Slorch's answer with the words we don't know."

We had a guy like that at my previous job.  When we had our annual opinion survey, HR would immediately recognize who it was.

[dcbc 14496]

1 minute ago, boilerhorn said:

In his memoir, On Writing, Stephen King notes, "If you want to become a writer, you must do two things above all others: read a lot and write a lot."  King notes that tends to write about 2x what actually gets published.  He also disdains adverbs.  Paraphrased: Only use them in dialogue, on special occasions, and maybe not even then.  I recommend On Writing, fwiw.

On Writing is a very good read. 

[TwiceHorn 31512]

7 hours ago, WBT said:

The idea that you need a liberal arts degree to write effectively in the corporate world is strange to me.  If you just read a book now and then, things tend to rub off.

True enough.  But there are a lot of people out there, to include otherwise intelligent people, that just don't read for pleasure, or even non-required edification/education.  And that includes a mega-shit-ton of people that go into STEM-y or non-ready fields.  And some STEM-y people are so left-brained as to be virtually illiterate.  Reading and writing skill atrophies, I'm pretty sure.

[tx 3 putt 77235]

7 hours ago, WBT said:

The idea that you need a liberal arts degree to write effectively in the corporate world is strange to me.  If you just read a book now and then, things tend to rub off.

 

i read the dictionary twice a year, keeps me on my toes