Elite private schools and college admissions

[Beau Vine 54256]

2 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

i read the dictionary twice a year, keeps me on my toes 

Phone book for me.  Good way to get to know your neighbors, too.

[Helobious 9462]

Feel like this is a good place to brag that I was over 90th percentile on the SAT in reading & writing. With 2 ESL parents. I liked reading books as a kid which made all the difference. 
 

I was & am thoroughly below average at math & science. Chose to major in finance instead of something I was more interested in/good at because jobs. Looking back I would not recommend at all. You can make money doing anything these days.

[Bateshorn 9928]

14 hours ago, Brew said:

She has her guarantees in place, so she’s shooting for the moon on most of the others with a few middle grounds mixed in. She’s a junior next year, so we decided to hit the hardest ones to get into this summer so she could go ahead and show interest, meet with admissions, get involved in some of the things they have going on for prospective students, work on early admittance (thanks for that thought process by the way) components since she has a solid baseline test score and can work on getting a couple more points from here on out, etc. Then she can visit the others during the school year and into her senior year that are on the easier tiers. Right now we’re fighting a battle with her to try and get her to understand that she needs to look at some smaller schools, that these larger ones are going to be a little overwhelming coming out of the small private school background. She’s focused on the “lists” of psychology schools in areas she likes though and hasn’t moved past the large institutions. It’s also difficult to randomly come up with smaller schools that make sense, although she is going to look at a few around Chicago and the Raleigh area as that is her two main focuses.

I struggled with something similar with encouraging Boy 2 to consider a range of school size choices.  Is she adamant about a big city college experience?  Again: I will pitch Trinity here.  It’s so fucking well resourced. 

[Brew 3049]

I don’t think it’s the big city experience she’s necessarily looking for, I think she’s just cross referencing the “lists” of top psychology schools with schools she’s heard of / places she has seen. Ultimately, she’s going to have a hard time expanding past UNC, so anything else has been a work in process. She has several large state type schools that are set in smaller towns on her list to see also at the moment. We’ll look into Trinity, she’s been extremely interested in the Boston area but again it leans towards Northeastern or Boston U.

[Samson's Wig 3192]

9 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

True enough.  But there are a lot of people out there, to include otherwise intelligent people, that just don't read for pleasure, or even non-required edification/education.  And that includes a mega-shit-ton of people that go into STEM-y or non-ready fields.  And some STEM-y people are so left-brained as to be virtually illiterate.  Reading and writing skill atrophies, I'm pretty sure.

It's a bit infuriating, and a bit sad, that the people who are the worst at communication are the same folks who think they know everything and therefore don't recognize how terrible they are at the written and spoken word (and everything else that doesn't fall into their narrow band of knowledge).  The world needs engineers, but we'd probably be better served if we grew them in a lab and kept them isolated from the rest of the population.  It's for their own protection, really.

[Bateshorn 9928]

13 minutes ago, Brew said:

I don’t think it’s the big city experience she’s necessarily looking for, I think she’s just cross referencing the “lists” of top psychology schools with schools she’s heard of / places she has seen. Ultimately, she’s going to have a hard time expanding past UNC, so anything else has been a work in process. She has several large state type schools that are set in smaller towns on her list to see also at the moment. We’ll look into Trinity, she’s been extremely interested in the Boston area but again it leans towards Northeastern or Boston U.

Assuming you are Texas based: the Winters in New England and Chicago are no fucking joke (That’s the Bates in my handle).  My ex went to BU, and I know plenty of Northeastern grads (as an aside, it’s fucking crazy both are hard to get into now, they were second tier party schools twenty five years ago). I’d recommend visiting in the winter, understand what you are getting into. Do not visit in the second week of October. Both will push hard for an Early Decision. I think Middlebury also has a strong Psych program. 
 

As for North Carolina, we just visited NCSU and were shocked by how much we enjoyed it.  It’s also relatively cheap for a public out of state. Boy 2 got 19k in need aid as a MD resident. 
 

On timing: Rising Juniors are such a tricky time. There were quiet whispers when Boy 1 was rising of possibly Pomona or other equivalent LAC, but Junior year is where the wheat and the chaff separate for elite students. It’s so unfair the amount of pressure we put on HS juniors.

[CooterBrown 18015]

Finished that book I referenced above. I now don't hate the schools as I did in my initial impression.

A few tidbits

• Elite schools are in a no win situation.  For example at Harvard, they accept 1,700 freshman in a year.  8,500 applicants have a perfect high school GPA with all AP, IB, and Honors courses.  4500 have a perfect math SAT. 2500 have a perfect language SAT. There's no formula for how those applicants are weeded down.
• Elite schools don't give a shit about Mary Sue having a dozen extracurricular activities because it shows no focus.  A candidate that can demonstrate leadership on their application in 1-2 extracurriculars is rated way higher.  On that note, "show up and be a member" clubs don't mean shit and detract from your application. Extracurriculars that look good require a time and work commitment. 
• Elite schools don't give merit aid. Period. They know you'll pay full price for the name and unless you fit a narrow socio-economic definition, you're going to.
• Every high school provides universities with their own brochure. It lists where former students have been accepted, student demographics, academic performance, list of all available courses, etc.  Applicants aren't judged just by what classes they took but what classes they didn't take. You want to to pre-med but you didn't take half of the science classes available? That's a big negative against your application.
• All universities track the IP address hits to each page on their website. When a student finally enters their contact info on an online form they can now match your surfing history to your name.  This data is valuable to judge how engaged you are with the university, which majors you are most interested in, and to determine how likely you are to enroll if you are offered a spot.  
• Universities can be divided into Buyers and Sellers. Applicants are the Have Nots.  Buyers are schools in the Top 50.  They don't have to do shit to get the best applicants other than to exist. Their name and reputation has everyone willing to throw them money. Merit aid is limited or nonexistent. Largely their undergraduate teaching is lacking compared to the schools ranked 51-150 since they're focused on graduate education and research to maintain that top 50 ranking.  Sellers are that next tier of the 50-150 ranked schools.  These schools usually have many majors that rank as high or higher as as the top 50 schools but don't have that overall reputation or research activities. These are schools that are actively looking to improve their ranking. To do this, they have to poach students that would normally go to a top 50 school. They do this by having more engaging undergraduate teaching, proactively recruiting students, and offer way more merit aid than higher ranked schools.  The overall applicant count at these schools is a fraction of those that apply at the top 50 so it's not competitive.  There's also little difference between the two sets of schools.  An example given was Virginia (seller) and Virginia Tech (buyer).  Their overall rankings are very far apart but the incoming student SAT score is less than 100 points different and beginning and mid career salaries are identical.  The 50-150 is the sweet spot for most applicants and where you should focus your effort.  

 

[Bateshorn 9928]

14 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Finished that book I referenced above. I now don't hate the schools as I did in my initial impression.

A few tidbits

• Elite schools are in a no win situation.  For example at Harvard, they accept 1,700 freshman in a year.  8,500 applicants have a perfect high school GPA with all AP, IB, and Honors courses.  4500 have a perfect math SAT. 2500 have a perfect language SAT. There's no formula for how those applicants are weeded down.
• Elite schools don't give a shit about Mary Sue having a dozen extracurricular activities because it shows no focus.  A candidate that can demonstrate leadership on their application in 1-2 extracurriculars is rated way higher.  On that note, "show up and be a member" clubs don't mean shit and detract from your application. Extracurriculars that look good require a time and work commitment. 
• Elite schools don't give merit aid. Period. They know you'll pay full price for the name and unless you fit a narrow socio-economic definition, you're going to.
• Every high school provides universities with their own brochure. It lists where former students have been accepted, student demographics, academic performance, list of all available courses, etc.  Applicants aren't judged just by what classes they took but what classes they didn't take. You want to to pre-med but you didn't take half of the science classes available? That's a big negative against your application.
• All universities track the IP address hits to each page on their website. When a student finally enters their contact info on an online form they can now match your surfing history to your name.  This data is valuable to judge how engaged you are with the university, which majors you are most interested in, and to determine how likely you are to enroll if you are offered a spot.  
• Universities can be divided into Buyers and Sellers. Applicants are the Have Nots.  Buyers are schools in the Top 50.  They don't have to do shit to get the best applicants other than to exist. Their name and reputation has everyone willing to throw them money. Merit aid is limited or nonexistent. Largely their undergraduate teaching is lacking compared to the schools ranked 51-150 since they're focused on graduate education and research to maintain that top 50 ranking.  Sellers are that next tier of the 50-150 ranked schools.  These schools usually have many majors that rank as high or higher as as the top 50 schools but don't have that overall reputation or research activities. These are schools that are actively looking to improve their ranking. To do this, they have to poach students that would normally go to a top 50 school. They do this by having more engaging undergraduate teaching, proactively recruiting students, and offer way more merit aid than higher ranked schools.  The overall applicant count at these schools is a fraction of those that apply at the top 50 so it's not competitive.  There's also little difference between the two sets of schools.  An example given was Virginia (seller) and Virginia Tech (buyer).  Their overall rankings are very far apart but the incoming student SAT score is less than 100 points different and beginning and mid career salaries are identical.  The 50-150 is the sweet spot for most applicants and where you should focus your effort.  

 

[Sbbruin 21861]

So the boy has decided on Northeastern.  Will be doing his freshman year in London.  Going to be hard on us to have him so far away.

As the college admissions madness continues, Northeastern went from 64k applicants, to 75k, to over 90k this year and a 6-7% acceptance rate.  Insanity

[CooterBrown 18015]

I had to take a kid to school so I forgot to add a few things:

• They want to see drive and performance against the curriculum available to the student.  All the admission officers said it looks far better to take 5 of 5 AP classes if that's all your high school offers than to take 20 of 25 at an elite high school.  So, all things being equal, a kid coming out of Del Valle will look better than a kid coming out of Westlake.  Why does the kid from Westlake get a spot though? The school's demographics show that kid's parents can cut a check for tuition in full.
• Senior classes matter.  When an applicant is on the waitlist or has a decision pending, if they see a student takes an easy senior schedule, has off periods, etc., the elite schools will deny entry.  Admissions officers view your senior year is the best prep for your freshman year of college and they expect it to be your hardest year in high school.
• Reference letters matter most when they're from teachers that didn't teach subjects you want to major in.  They like students with diverse interests who were also high performers in other subjects. 
• Most calculate a new GPA for each applicant. It's a core GPA with certain grades omitted based on your declared major.  For example, if you want to major in a STEM, they will look at your grades just in STEM classes + other core subjects like English, etc.  Art, music, PE, non-applicable electives, etc grades are dropped from the average.  Research has shown that this core GPA is the best indicator for the success of a new freshman student.
• The SAT and ACT don't matter they way you think they do.  The tests are mostly a check against the validity of your GPA.  Test scores and GPA consistently line up with each other. If they don't something is up with that application.

 

[CooterBrown 18015]

1 minute ago, Sbbruin said:

So the boy has decided on Northeastern.  Will be doing his freshman year in London.  Going to be hard on us to have him so far away.

As the college admissions madness continues, Northeastern went from 64k applicants, to 75k, to over 90k this year and a 6-7% acceptance rate.  Insanity

There's a good section on Northeastern in the book.  They were almost bankrupt in 1992 and had a dwindling population.  They weren't ranked and they had a 90% acceptance rate.  They were one of the first schools to actively work the ratings system by focusing on improving their ranking criteria.   They doled out money and bought better students.  That then resulted in more applicants because younger students saw their older high ranked peers applying there.  That dropped their acceptance rate.  Their rank moved up.  That bought better professors.  Etc.  They moved up to top 30 in around 20 years.  

[WBT 20620]

8 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

There's a good section on Northeastern in the book.  They were almost bankrupt in 1992 and had a dwindling population.  They weren't ranked and they had a 90% acceptance rate.  They were one of the first schools to actively work the ratings system by focusing on improving their ranking criteria.   They doled out money and bought better students.  That then resulted in more applicants because younger students saw their older high ranked peers applying there.  That dropped their acceptance rate.  Their rank moved up.  That bought better professors.  Etc.  They moved up to top 30 in around 20 years.  

The OU merit scholar approach.  OU can't pull if off because, you know...

[Sbbruin 21861]

1 hour ago, CooterBrown said:

There's a good section on Northeastern in the book.  They were almost bankrupt in 1992 and had a dwindling population.  They weren't ranked and they had a 90% acceptance rate.  They were one of the first schools to actively work the ratings system by focusing on improving their ranking criteria.   They doled out money and bought better students.  That then resulted in more applicants because younger students saw their older high ranked peers applying there.  That dropped their acceptance rate.  Their rank moved up.  That bought better professors.  Etc.  They moved up to top 30 in around 20 years.  

Yeah, my wife just forwarded me this, which outlines what you described.  https://www.ivycoach.com/the-ivy-coach-blog/college-admissions/record-applications-to-northeastern-class-of-2026/

Quote

Ask admissions officers at our nation’s most elite universities if they care about the annual US News & World Report college rankings and down the line you will hear the same answer: no. Yet readers of our college admissions blog know better. Readers of our college admissions blog know that every admissions officer at our nation’s top universities cares about the annual ranking and where their respective institution lands on the annual list. Readers of our college admissions blog know that deans of admission at top universities won’t be long for their jobs if their institutions fall in the rankings. Readers of our college admissions blog know that admissions officers will do everything in their power to manipulate the annual ranking — from encouraging unqualified applicants to apply in order to boost the application tally and lower the admission rate to sending out personalized notes to encourage accepted students to matriculate in order to improve their yields. Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. Rankings, rankings, rankings.

And while all universities are guilty of manipulating the US News & World Report ranking, which university has manipulated the US News & World Report most effectively? Look no further than Northeastern University, a school that openly plays their version of Moneyball to try to beat their more established college competitors on the September list. As Jeffrey Selingo detailed in his book, Who Gets In and Why?, “For Northeastern to vault into the top 100, university officials determined they had to recruit higher-caliber students to boost the SAT scores and high school class rank of the incoming class. The hope then was that those students would stay enrolled to increase the university’s retention and graduation rates. ‘It was very mathematical and very conscious,’ [Northeastern’s then-president Richard] Freeland told Boston Magazine in 2014. ‘Every year we would sit around and say ‘Okay, well here’s where we are, here’s where we think we might be able to do next year, where will that place us?’…’We did play other kinds of games,’ Freeland admitted. ‘You get credit for the number of classes you have under twenty [students], so we lowered our caps on a lot of our classes to nineteen just to be sure.’”

2022 has proven to be no exception for Northeastern. In all, the school is reported to have received approximately 91,000 applications. This blows away last year’s record tally of 75,000 applications. Back in 2020, just two years ago, total applications to the Boston, Massachusetts institution stood at 64,000. That’s a 27,000 applicant jump in just two years. Just when you thought the school set a new application benchmark that would stand for at least a few years, that record gets shattered again. And word on the street it that the Regular Decision admission rate for the institution stood between 6-7%. Will the school enjoy similar success next year? Do stay tuned!

 

[Vegas64 676]

When I think of Northeastern I think "meh", and probably because I'm older and remember it before it paid to transform itself.

[Sbbruin 21861]

19 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

I mean, Emory had 32000 applications and let in 3200, of which 1500 enrolled.  It's that fucking selective, and they get choosy like that.  The two pieces of advice that have stuck with me:  The Davidson admissions rep said, essentially, "We know you aren't really focusing on the 8-10 extra curriculars you are listing, and frankly, its a bit off putting.  We'd prefer you showed a real passion for 1 or 2 things and incorporated that into your app"  and the my eldest councilor talked about having an app with an "edge."  Well rounded kids tend to roll off the admissions table. You can't be everything to everyone.  Find something that will make the app stick.

I have no doubt your kid is a genius, but I beg you:  Please help them develop a tiered list so they aren't one of those poor high achieving kids that gets rejected from 8 out of 9 schools they apply to because they are all lottery/impossible to get into.  Pick a few schools that might not be ultra high tier names so your kid gets some acceptances early on in the process. Watching some of my son's friends just go through an avalanche of rejections before eventually going to UMD is just soul crushing.

It has been absolutely insane this year.  My son's classmates (again, at one of the really elite prep schools in CA) are all over the board in acceptances.  Some kids you would think wouldn't have a prayer at Cal or UCLA got in, but on the flip side, more than a few who are really high achieving kids have gotten rejected almost everywhere.  One kid: 4.4 GPA, 34 ACT, lead in several dramas, etc., got rejected everywhere except UC Santa Cruz and Oregon.  Another who my son went to elementary through HS with who is an all A's kid too, and will be getting his eagle scout (although didn't have it as of application time) is head to San Diego fucking State.  Must feel great after 6 years of +/-$40k tuition to send your kid to SDSU.  Go Aztecs!

[Sbbruin 21861]

8 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

When I think of Northeastern I think "meh", and probably because I'm older and remember it before it paid to transform itself.

When I was applying to college, my safety school was SC (no offense @USCATX).  But that was the reality back in the '80's.  I applied to 4 UC's and SC just in case, and I was a 3.4 GPA, 1250 SAT kid.  Now SC is one of the elite schools on the west coast (just ask them, they will be happy to go on and on about it).  The transformation of universities over the last 30 years is likely going to pale in comparison to what will happen over the next 30.    

Shit, looking at those grades/SATs, I'd be headed to Pasadena City College if it was nowadays.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Sbbruin

[Vegas64 676]

2 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

When I was applying to college, my safety school was SC (no offense @USCATX).  But that was the reality back in the '80's.  I applied to 4 UC's and SC just in case, and I was a 3.4 GPA, 1250 SAT kid.  Now SC is one of the elite schools on the west coast (just ask them, they will be happy to go on and on about it).  The transformation of universities over the last 30 years is likely going to pale in comparison to what will happen over the next 30.    

Look at UT-Austin as an example as well-- most of us went when the school was an average, cheap, in-state option with average to above average admission barriers. Now 90% of us on this site would be kindly asked to get off the lawn.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Vegas64

[TexasBeta 1265]

10 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

When I was applying to college, my safety school was SC (no offense @USCATX).  But that was the reality back in the '80's.  I applied to 4 UC's and SC just in case, and I was a 3.4 GPA, 1250 SAT kid.  Now SC is one of the elite schools on the west coast (just ask them, they will be happy to go on and on about it).  The transformation of universities over the last 30 years is likely going to pale in comparison to what will happen over the next 30.    

Shit, looking at those grades/SATs, I'd be headed to Pasadena City College if it was nowadays.

I think this has been answered before.. but why is it so different now - demographics in Texas is one .. maybe but nationwide... what is going on. 

 

[Texas St. Armadillos 1381]

2 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

Finished that book I referenced above. I now don't hate the schools as I did in my initial impression.

A few tidbits

• Elite schools are in a no win situation.  For example at Harvard, they accept 1,700 freshman in a year.  8,500 applicants have a perfect high school GPA with all AP, IB, and Honors courses.  4500 have a perfect math SAT. 2500 have a perfect language SAT. There's no formula for how those applicants are weeded down.
• Elite schools don't give a shit about Mary Sue having a dozen extracurricular activities because it shows no focus.  A candidate that can demonstrate leadership on their application in 1-2 extracurriculars is rated way higher.  On that note, "show up and be a member" clubs don't mean shit and detract from your application. Extracurriculars that look good require a time and work commitment. 
• Elite schools don't give merit aid. Period. They know you'll pay full price for the name and unless you fit a narrow socio-economic definition, you're going to.
• Every high school provides universities with their own brochure. It lists where former students have been accepted, student demographics, academic performance, list of all available courses, etc.  Applicants aren't judged just by what classes they took but what classes they didn't take. You want to to pre-med but you didn't take half of the science classes available? That's a big negative against your application.
• All universities track the IP address hits to each page on their website. When a student finally enters their contact info on an online form they can now match your surfing history to your name.  This data is valuable to judge how engaged you are with the university, which majors you are most interested in, and to determine how likely you are to enroll if you are offered a spot.  
• Universities can be divided into Buyers and Sellers. Applicants are the Have Nots.  Buyers are schools in the Top 50.  They don't have to do shit to get the best applicants other than to exist. Their name and reputation has everyone willing to throw them money. Merit aid is limited or nonexistent. Largely their undergraduate teaching is lacking compared to the schools ranked 51-150 since they're focused on graduate education and research to maintain that top 50 ranking.  Sellers are that next tier of the 50-150 ranked schools.  These schools usually have many majors that rank as high or higher as as the top 50 schools but don't have that overall reputation or research activities. These are schools that are actively looking to improve their ranking. To do this, they have to poach students that would normally go to a top 50 school. They do this by having more engaging undergraduate teaching, proactively recruiting students, and offer way more merit aid than higher ranked schools.  The overall applicant count at these schools is a fraction of those that apply at the top 50 so it's not competitive.  There's also little difference between the two sets of schools.  An example given was Virginia (seller) and Virginia Tech (buyer).  Their overall rankings are very far apart but the incoming student SAT score is less than 100 points different and beginning and mid career salaries are identical.  The 50-150 is the sweet spot for most applicants and where you should focus your effort.  

 

Thanks for this.  Is there a consensus source for the "rankings"?  US News and World Reports?  I would be interested in seeing the schools this book considers 1-150.

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

10 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

Look at UT-Austin as an example as well-- most of us went when the school was an average, cheap, in-state option with average to above average admission barriers. Now 90% of us on this site would be kindly asked to get off the lawn.

Telling kids that we could pay tuition and rent with a part time job back in the 80s is mind-blowing to them

[CooterBrown 18015]

Thanks for this.  Is there a consensus source for the "rankings"?  US News and World Reports?  I would be interested in seeing the schools this book considers 1-150.

For better or worse, that’s the one that matters.

[TexasBeta 1265]

2 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

I had to take a kid to school so I forgot to add a few things:

• They want to see drive and performance against the curriculum available to the student.  All the admission officers said it looks far better to take 5 of 5 AP classes if that's all your high school offers than to take 20 of 25 at an elite high school.  So, all things being equal, a kid coming out of Del Valle will look better than a kid coming out of Westlake.  Why does the kid from Westlake get a spot though? The school's demographics show that kid's parents can cut a check for tuition in full.
• Senior classes matter.  When an applicant is on the waitlist or has a decision pending, if they see a student takes an easy senior schedule, has off periods, etc., the elite schools will deny entry.  Admissions officers view your senior year is the best prep for your freshman year of college and they expect it to be your hardest year in high school.
• Reference letters matter most when they're from teachers that didn't teach subjects you want to major in.  They like students with diverse interests who were also high performers in other subjects. 
• Most calculate a new GPA for each applicant. It's a core GPA with certain grades omitted based on your declared major.  For example, if you want to major in a STEM, they will look at your grades just in STEM classes + other core subjects like English, etc.  Art, music, PE, non-applicable electives, etc grades are dropped from the average.  Research has shown that this core GPA is the best indicator for the success of a new freshman student.
• The SAT and ACT don't matter they way you think they do.  The tests are mostly a check against the validity of your GPA.  Test scores and GPA consistently line up with each other. If they don't something is up with that application.

 

Thank you for this and the post prior - It is such a different world then when I packed up and went to UT (the only school I applied to because I had a blast at Roundup that spring.. go figure) I have 3 within 2 to 4 years of entering college. I appreciate the insight. 

[USCATX 1078]

7 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

When I was applying to college, my safety school was SC (no offense @USCATX).  But that was the reality back in the '80's.  I applied to 4 UC's and SC just in case, and I was a 3.4 GPA, 1250 SAT kid.  Now SC is one of the elite schools on the west coast (just ask them, they will be happy to go on and on about it).  The transformation of universities over the last 30 years is likely going to pale in comparison to what will happen over the next 30.    

Shit, looking at those grades/SATs, I'd be headed to Pasadena City College if it was nowadays.

Don’t sell yourself short, those would be solid CSU Fullerton or Long Beach stats. 

[Mach 1 1677]

22 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

True enough.  But there are a lot of people out there, to include otherwise intelligent people, that just don't read for pleasure, or even non-required edification/education.  And that includes a mega-shit-ton of people that go into STEM-y or non-ready fields.  And some STEM-y people are so left-brained as to be virtually illiterate.  Reading and writing skill atrophies, I'm pretty sure.

Reading is incredibly important, IMO, in getting the brain working hard, flexing its muscle so to speak, for whatever you want to do in life.  I'm no expert, but I do know the phase of hard core reading I did as a kid when I wasn't particularly popular, helped offset the hookers and blow I did when I grew into the intellectual stud I am today.  

Seriously I harp on that with my kids a lot. Read, read, read, find whatever you're interested in, try some fiction, non fiction whatever. You have to use your imagination instead of having it driven into your brain by images.  And the way a sentence reads should be balanced against normal conversation, what flows, what seems stilted and unnecessary.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Mach 1

[Vegas64 676]

10 hours ago, Mach 1 said:

Reading is incredibly important, IMO, in getting the brain working hard, flexing its muscle so to speak, for whatever you want to do in life.  I'm no expert, but I do know the phase of hard core reading I did as a kid when I wasn't particularly popular, helped offset the hookers and blow I did when I grew into the intellectual stud I am today.  

Seriously I harp on that with my kids a lot. Read, read, read, find whatever you're interested in, try some fiction, non fiction whatever. You have to use your imagination instead of having it driven into your brain by images.  And the way a sentence reads should be balanced against normal conversation, what flows, what seems stilted and unnecessary.

Readers are Leaders.

or is it, Leaders are Reader?

 

[TwiceHorn 31501]

22 hours ago, Samson's Wig said:

It's a bit infuriating, and a bit sad, that the people who are the worst at communication are the same folks who think they know everything and therefore don't recognize how terrible they are at the written and spoken word (and everything else that doesn't fall into their narrow band of knowledge).  The world needs engineers, but we'd probably be better served if we grew them in a lab and kept them isolated from the rest of the population.  It's for their own protection, really.

I honestly don't find those people to be that way at all, most of the time.  They are aware of their deficiencies in that department.  The intellectual arrogance among lawyers is usually much worse than among engineers.

[South Austin 52521]

10 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The intellectual arrogance among lawyers is usually much worse than among engineers.

I strenuously object.

[Wulaw Horn 19116]

Where is the thread for parents pushing Sam Houston State on their kids? I think I’m going to hang out with @CHAD BRISCOEon that thread rather than try to contemplate sticker price and all that goes into entry to some of these schools y’all are talking about. 
I think I understand a little better the impetus behind varsity blues now. 

[Beau Vine 54256]

14 hours ago, USCATX said:

Don’t sell yourself short, those would be solid Cal State-Disneyland or Cal State-Queen Mary stats. 

fify

[CooterBrown 18015]

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Where is the thread for parents pushing Sam Houston State on their kids? I think I’m going to hang out with @CHAD BRISCOEon that thread rather than try to contemplate sticker price and all that goes into entry to some of these schools y’all are talking about. 
I think I understand a little better the impetus behind varsity blues now. 

Another thread has taught me that if you are a certain demographic and graduate from Texas State, you'll be globe trotting and living on yachts by age 23. 

[Bateshorn 9928]

1 hour ago, CooterBrown said:

Another thread has taught me that if you are a certain demographic and graduate from Texas State, you'll be globe trotting and living on yachts by age 23. 

I would hope the relatives of that demographic have the responsibility and integrity to follow the rules and post pics of the friends, unlike certain long standing members of this website who should know better. @Brisketexan.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Bateshorn

[Texzilla58 4738]

I have been told part of the issue is some of the top schools have eliminated or downgraded SAt/ACT scores from their scoring which has caused a massive flood of applicants that have grades but shitty scores.
Add in students applying from Covid delays and massive upticks in applicants there you go.

So glad my son enlisted in the Air Force at 17.

[South Austin 52521]

11 minutes ago, Texzilla58 said:

I have been told part of the issue is some of the top schools have eliminated or downgraded SAt/ACT scores from their scoring which has caused a massive flood of applicants that have grades but shitty scores.

I’ve heard the same thing. It’s all GPA and essays.

[South Austin 52521]

UT announced that it’s not requiring SAT or ACT scores for 2023 applicants, but encourages their submission.

 

[Samson's Wig 3192]

On 4/27/2022 at 7:00 AM, TwiceHorn said:

I honestly don't find those people to be that way at all, most of the time.  They are aware of their deficiencies in that department.  The intellectual arrogance among lawyers is usually much worse than among engineers.

That's interesting.  My experience has been the exact opposite.  While attorneys certainly have no lack of an inflated ego regarding their intelligence (myself very much included), on the whole most attorneys I've dealt with will readily admit when they don't know something and are comfortable outsourcing the issue.  Admittedly, and obvious to anyone who has practiced law for more than ten minutes, there are a boatload of dumbasses with law degrees, and I may very well be one of them.  However, I've met too many engineers who would fight to the death before acknowledging there is a subject they are not the master of, or capable of being the master of, if they just do their research.  Their world is binary and anything with shades of gray is a foreign language for them.  I think it comes down to one profession being filled with folks who focused on a narrow band of subject matter their entire education and working life, and the other profession involving people who tend to come from all kinds of backgrounds and often wandered in the desert before becoming a lawyer.  The educational aspect is more difficult and singularly focused for engineering, generally speaking, and that's going to lead to a bit of myopia. 

 

[Celery Man 20970]

On 4/26/2022 at 9:28 AM, Bateshorn said:

Assuming you are Texas based: the Winters in New England and Chicago are no fucking joke (That’s the Bates in my handle).  My ex went to BU, and I know plenty of Northeastern grads (as an aside, it’s fucking crazy both are hard to get into now, they were second tier party schools twenty five years ago). I’d recommend visiting in the winter, understand what you are getting into. Do not visit in the second week of October. Both will push hard for an Early Decision. I think Middlebury also has a strong Psych program. 
 

As for North Carolina, we just visited NCSU and were shocked by how much we enjoyed it.  It’s also relatively cheap for a public out of state. Boy 2 got 19k in need aid as a MD resident. 
 

On timing: Rising Juniors are such a tricky time. There were quiet whispers when Boy 1 was rising of possibly Pomona or other equivalent LAC, but Junior year is where the wheat and the chaff separate for elite students. It’s so unfair the amount of pressure we put on HS juniors.

just now sifting through this thread (and am therefore like a child who wanders into a movie) but having recently moved to the area (Wake Forest, which is not where the school is located anymore) I was surprised by all the NC State stuff. Honestly I thought of the Triangle as being Duke/UNC, didn't even really know that NC State existed and is in Raleigh. But it seems like a nice campus and a good school, and I run into a shit ton of NC State grads, to the extent that the Wolfpack is becoming my second team. Tons of them in all kinds of positions at my biotech company, tons of the Stanford looking ncS stickers on nice looking cars in my boring suburb, etc. I haven't analyzed rankings and stuff very deeply, but it has made me think about if this is what it's like for the "state" school to focus on its functional purpose instead primarily servicing an inferiority complex.

 

On 4/27/2022 at 8:00 AM, TwiceHorn said:

I honestly don't find those people to be that way at all, most of the time.  They are aware of their deficiencies in that department.  The intellectual arrogance among lawyers is usually much worse than among engineers.

the worst are engineer lawyers

[Samson's Wig 3192]

1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

the worst are engineer lawyers

Lol.  And true.

[luke duke 6413]

Look at UT-Austin as an example as well-- most of us went when the school was an average, cheap, in-state option with average to above average admission barriers. Now 90% of us on this site would be kindly asked to get off mow the lawn.

FIFY

[Bateshorn 9928]

Whelp, Boy #2 is a University of Oregon Duck.  He got into Clark Honors, the Business School, and got 10K in merit.  Apparently rain doesn’t bother him. 
 

@Sbbruin do you have any idea what’s the best Duck billboard for a Shag member to follow Oregon football?  I’m not leaving here, but I would like to at least feel the thrill of successful college football again before I shuffle off this mortal coil.

[tx 3 putt 77099]

Congrats

[South Austin 52521]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

Whelp, Boy #2 is a University of Oregon Duck.  He got into Clark Honors, the Business School, and got 10K in merit.  Apparently rain doesn’t bother him.

Oregon is on my daughter’s list and she’s visiting in June. I’m hearing a lot of Texas kids going there these days.

[Sawbonz 27580]

On 4/26/2022 at 8:34 AM, CooterBrown said:

Finished that book I referenced above. I now don't hate the schools as I did in my initial impression.

A few tidbits

• Elite schools are in a no win situation.  For example at Harvard, they accept 1,700 freshman in a year.  8,500 applicants have a perfect high school GPA with all AP, IB, and Honors courses.  4500 have a perfect math SAT. 2500 have a perfect language SAT. There's no formula for how those applicants are weeded down.
• Elite schools don't give a shit about Mary Sue having a dozen extracurricular activities because it shows no focus.  A candidate that can demonstrate leadership on their application in 1-2 extracurriculars is rated way higher.  On that note, "show up and be a member" clubs don't mean shit and detract from your application. Extracurriculars that look good require a time and work commitment. 
• Elite schools don't give merit aid. Period. They know you'll pay full price for the name and unless you fit a narrow socio-economic definition, you're going to.
• Every high school provides universities with their own brochure. It lists where former students have been accepted, student demographics, academic performance, list of all available courses, etc.  Applicants aren't judged just by what classes they took but what classes they didn't take. You want to to pre-med but you didn't take half of the science classes available? That's a big negative against your application.
• All universities track the IP address hits to each page on their website. When a student finally enters their contact info on an online form they can now match your surfing history to your name.  This data is valuable to judge how engaged you are with the university, which majors you are most interested in, and to determine how likely you are to enroll if you are offered a spot.  
• Universities can be divided into Buyers and Sellers. Applicants are the Have Nots.  Buyers are schools in the Top 50.  They don't have to do shit to get the best applicants other than to exist. Their name and reputation has everyone willing to throw them money. Merit aid is limited or nonexistent. Largely their undergraduate teaching is lacking compared to the schools ranked 51-150 since they're focused on graduate education and research to maintain that top 50 ranking.  Sellers are that next tier of the 50-150 ranked schools.  These schools usually have many majors that rank as high or higher as as the top 50 schools but don't have that overall reputation or research activities. These are schools that are actively looking to improve their ranking. To do this, they have to poach students that would normally go to a top 50 school. They do this by having more engaging undergraduate teaching, proactively recruiting students, and offer way more merit aid than higher ranked schools.  The overall applicant count at these schools is a fraction of those that apply at the top 50 so it's not competitive.  There's also little difference between the two sets of schools.  An example given was Virginia (seller) and Virginia Tech (buyer).  Their overall rankings are very far apart but the incoming student SAT score is less than 100 points different and beginning and mid career salaries are identical.  The 50-150 is the sweet spot for most applicants and where you should focus your effort.  

 

Username does not check out

 

in medicine you run into a lot of Ivy grads as I’m sure you do in law. I have never been particularly impressed by their brains or technical ability as being superior to anyone else’s. Highest number of 4.0s in my meds school class were from tech. One of the Ivy grads I wouldn’t let touch my dog. As a whole of course they will be alright just because of the selectivity of the schools. I did go to an Ivy for fellowship though. Don’t cost nothin

 

I see Ivy undergrad as valuable if you want to go into politics or if you want to marry into fuck you money. Otherwise kick ass at the best reasonably priced public you can get into. You will then be competitive for an elite grad program if you really want it /don’t mind wasting money

[CooterBrown 18015]

I see Ivy undergrad as valuable if you want to go into politics or if you want to marry into fuck you money. Otherwise kick ass at the best reasonably priced public you can get into. You will then be competitive for an elite grad program if you really want it /don’t mind wasting money

The book says that specifically. If you want the hobnob with politicians, clerk with supremes, bang a Fortune 500 CEO’s daughter, go Ivy.

The author talks about research that has shown that what matters is “how” you do college, not “where” you do college. Engage with your professors, peers, join research studies, dive into clubs, surround yourself with like minded students that have a direction, do internships, etc.

[Guest]

Internships for the win.

Bigtime "extended job interview" if you do it right.

[Bateshorn 9928]

In DC, Internships on the hill are a must to get a paying hill job.

Put in a half dozen years eating shit has a hill staffer and it’s more valuable than any graduate degree. 

[Sawbonz 27580]

On 4/27/2022 at 9:41 AM, CooterBrown said:

Another thread has taught me that if you are a certain demographic and graduate from Texas State, you'll be globe trotting and living on yachts by age 23. 

That school is right out for my girls 

[We’reTexas 1473]

50 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

In DC, Internships on the hill are a must to get a paying hill job.

Put in a half dozen years eating shit has a hill staffer and it’s more valuable than any graduate degree. 

Yes, but I experienced heavy coastal elitism when I had just graduated and was trying to get my foot in the door on the Hill (granted, this was also during the recession when kids were flooding the Hill looking for internships/jobs). It was the only time I’ve ever wished I’d gone the east coast private route. 

[Guest]

Son( STEM major) did internships with Sandia National Laboratories in ALB and then next summer at SFO.  Was virtually guaranteed position, but then did another one postgrad with Bloomberg, and they offered.

 Internships are huge.

[Fudge Nuggets 19206]

On 4/26/2022 at 8:07 AM, Samson's Wig said:

The world needs engineers, but we'd probably be better served if we grew them in a lab and kept them isolated from the rest of the population.  It's for their own protection, really.

As an engineer, I agree with this.  Besides, we have very little patience for the stupids around us.

[Bateshorn 9928]

2 hours ago, We’reTexas said:

Yes, but I experienced heavy coastal elitism when I had just graduated and was trying to get my foot in the door on the Hill (granted, this was also during the recession when kids were flooding the Hill looking for internships/jobs). It was the only time I’ve ever wished I’d gone the east coast private route. 

Oh , for sure.  I don’t love that aspect of it, but it’s literally the only time my Bates degree has been a clear positive.