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Posted

Shohei is incredible but at some point your team being 17 games below .500 has to count for something. And this isn't a run of the mill MVP batting season for Judge - he has a 213 OPS+ in 151 games played. 

Just depends on how you define "MVP" I guess. 

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Posted (edited)

I tend to always lean to the word "valuable".  Judge was more valuable for the Yankees than Ohtani was for the Angels.  Judge pretty much carried the team to any of the wins they had for multiple weeks when they were in freefall mode.  Angels suck with Ohtani and would suck without Ohtani.  

Ohtani is the Most Outstanding Player in the league, but we don't have an award for that......yet. 

 

Oh but don't let dingleberry Helo read this because "all Astros fans only think Yordan or Altuve should be winning MVP derp derp" 

Edited by Scraps
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Posted

I tend to go by the value metrics. I understand that they aren’t perfect, but they are the best we’ve got at determining player value. It’s complicated because there is no real basis of comparison for Ohtani, aside from adding his position player/pitching WAR. For example, there may be an adjustment needed because he’s a great hitter and pitcher all tied up into a single roster spot; that has obvious value, but how do we quantify that?

I don’t know, and so I’d be inclined to go by the value metrics that we currently have which, like them or not, are used (in some form or fashion) universally in MLB. So I’d go with Judge based on the numbers that, ironically, Helo hates so much (WAR). He’s had an historic offensive year while playing reasonably good defense at a premium position. Ohtani offensively has not been in the same universe as Judge this year, and I don’t think the pitching numbers make up for the delta. Again, acknowledging that we may one day look back at this and say it was obviously Ohtani. But with what we know now, I’d vote for Judge.

Posted
1 hour ago, Scraps said:

I tend to always lean to the word "valuable".  Judge was more valuable for the Yankees than Ohtani was for the Angels.  Judge pretty much carried the team to any of the wins they had for multiple weeks when they were in freefall mode.  Angels suck with Ohtani and would suck without Ohtani.  

Ohtani is the Most Outstanding Player in the league, but we don't have an award for that......yet.

I normally despise this argument, but this is apparently the exact situation that it makes sense to me.  I just keep thinking that if Ohtani were really more valuable than Judge, the Angels would have to have more than 70 wins, right?  The Angels without SO don't seem like they should really be *THAT* much worse than NYY without AJ.

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Posted
42 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Ohtani offensively has not been in the same universe as Judge this year, and I don’t think the pitching numbers make up for the delta.

I think that's exactly what WAR is telling us. 

Posted

To me it’s not even hard to understand. Ohtani pitches once every 5 days and is in the game for 4 at bats on the other days. Judge is in the game for 9 innings every day. Ohtani is a freak but judge is a more impactful player overall.

Posted
8 minutes ago, Helobious said:

To me it’s not even hard to understand. Ohtani pitches once every 5 days and is in the game for 4 at bats on the other days. Judge is in the game for 9 innings every day. Ohtani is a freak but judge is a more impactful player overall.

ohtani bats when he pitches. they have a similar number of pa. 

Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Helobious said:

To me it’s not even hard to understand. Ohtani pitches once every 5 days and is in the game for 4 at bats on the other days. Judge is in the game for 9 innings every day. Ohtani is a freak but judge is a more impactful player overall.

 

Judge-552 ABs, 672 PAs

Ohtani-561 ABs, 639 PAs

Edited by TonyTexas
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Posted
2 hours ago, Scraps said:

I tend to always lean to the word "valuable".  Judge was more valuable for the Yankees than Ohtani was for the Angels.  Judge pretty much carried the team to any of the wins they had for multiple weeks when they were in freefall mode.  Angels suck with Ohtani and would suck without Ohtani.  

Ohtani is the Most Outstanding Player in the league, but we don't have an award for that......yet. 

I disagree. We can quantify value pretty well. It’s not Ohtani’s fault that Trout missed 40 games, Rendon missed most of the season, the other pitchers on the staff aren’t good, etc. Those things don’t diminish his value at all; they diminish the team’s overall success. His value is still his value. We have a pretty good estimate of the impact he’s had on his team’s win total. It appears to be slightly less than Judge has had on his team’s. Their teammates are responsible for the rest of it. 

Posted
36 minutes ago, Helobious said:

To me it’s not even hard to understand. Ohtani pitches once every 5 days and is in the game for 4 at bats on the other days. Judge is in the game for 9 innings every day. Ohtani is a freak but judge is a more impactful player overall.

my favorite part of all of this, is that most agree with helo that judge should win.  he's just so inept at creating and executing any type of supporting argument.

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Posted
38 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I think that's exactly what WAR is telling us. 

I've said it before in this thread, but I don't like WAR for looking at MVP because it ignores context.  If someone was more clutch, that made them more valuable, even if it's not a repeatable skill.  That's why I like RE24 or WPA.

And Judge is pretty far ahead on both of those:

WPA: 8.0 Judge, 2.5 + 3.3 Ohtani

RE24: 80.1 Judge, 32.4 + 33.9 Ohtani

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

I've said it before in this thread, but I don't like WAR for looking at MVP because it ignores context.  If someone was more clutch, that made them more valuable, even if it's not a repeatable skill.  That's why I like RE24 or WPA.

And Judge is pretty far ahead on both of those:

WPA: 8.0 Judge, 2.5 + 3.3 Ohtani

RE24: 80.1 Judge, 32.4 + 33.9 Ohtani

 

I agree with this. MVP should be an award for what actually happened. I'll pay a guy for future seasons based on WAR but I'll vote for him for postseason awards based on WPA. That can cause some crazy results but that's what happened. If a guy has a season where he flukes his way into far more high leverage situations than expected he still has to deliver in those situations to accumulate positive WPA.

Edited by Huckleberry
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Posted

I don't understand how you can watch these ABs and think that hitting 60+ isn't a huge fucking deal. It becomes progressively harder to hit homers the more you've hit in a season. Especially for a guy that is - for all we know - not juicing. It could be 20 years before we see this again. 

That said - the AL record shit is overblown - but AL or NL anyone hitting 60 is something else. 

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Posted

Stupidest AB in the 8th for Judge. Orioles pitcher throws two balls, gets hurt, decides to stay in game, throws some warm up pitches, throws another ball, O’s decide fuck it just walk him. I think once you start an AB you shouldn’t get warm up pitches, should be a new rule . 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Helobious said:

Stupidest AB in the 8th for Judge. Orioles pitcher throws two balls, gets hurt, decides to stay in game, throws some warm up pitches, throws another ball, O’s decide fuck it just walk him. I think once you start an AB you shouldn’t get warm up pitches, should be a new rule . 

The stupid part are people leaving. I hope he gets it in extra innings and all those assholes miss it. 

Go to a game, watch the game. Only game I have left early was UT vs. Notre Dame. Won't mention the score. We went and got drunk at the Posse East. 

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Posted
13 hours ago, Helobious said:

Stupidest AB in the 8th for Judge. Orioles pitcher throws two balls, gets hurt, decides to stay in game, throws some warm up pitches, throws another ball, O’s decide fuck it just walk him. I think once you start an AB you shouldn’t get warm up pitches, should be a new rule . 

No practice swings by batters either...

Posted
2 hours ago, ztejas said:

Mariners to the playoffs. 

Hey Helo can you declare that the Rangers have zero shot at getting to the WS next season?

I’ll do you one better and say the Rangers have no shot at the playoffs next year. That’ll be a free prediction I can hang my hat on for getting correct, thanks.

31 minutes ago, slorch said:

No practice swings by batters either...

I actually would be in favor of that too.

Posted
Today begins Domestic Violence Awareness Month according to the PA announcer. Good thing Domingo German pitched last night and not today. 
There is always Aroldis Chapman
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Posted

This beta cuck for the O’s is throwing batting practice to everyone except Judge who he hit in the 1st and just walked again. When you give up a homer to Higashioka you probably should go ahead and ask to be pulled from the game.

Posted
48 minutes ago, Scraps said:
53 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:
Today begins Domestic Violence Awareness Month according to the PA announcer. Good thing Domingo German pitched last night and not today. 

There is always Aroldis Chapman

Nothing I can say there.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

This beta cuck for the O’s is throwing batting practice to everyone except Judge who he hit in the 1st and just walked again. When you give up a homer to Higashioka you probably should go ahead and ask to be pulled from the game.

You probably whined last night when pitching around Judge helped the O’s win.

Posted
13 minutes ago, VirginiaLonghorn said:

You probably whined last night when pitching around Judge helped the O’s win.

Boone trotting an obviously done Britton in the biggest situation in the game is why the O’s won. No more no less. No one for the Yanks made solid contact with anything outside of Cabrera.

Posted
14 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

Boone trotting an obviously done Britton in the biggest situation in the game is why the O’s won. No more no less. No one for the Yanks made solid contact with anything outside of Cabrera.

Not giving in to arguably the game’s best/most dangerous hitter wasn’t big?  No more, no less?

Posted

When you lose by a run and that run came via a guy who had recorded two outs and had walked seven in his return to the team, yes that is no more, no less what decided the game. Again, no one made good contact last night outside of Cabrera. Britton should never have been activated this season.

The O’s trotted out a coward to the bump today. One of many guys over the last several weeks that mentally cannot handle the moment. I would not care if it was Alvarez going for the record in Houston or if it was prime JD Martinez. Grow a set and pitch to guys or don’t take the mound. Give me a Verlander or Nolan Ryan in these situations every day of the week.

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