Round 2 - French Elections

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,121]

Round one ended with Macron with 27.8%, Marine Le Pen with 23.1%, and Melechon with 22%.  Zemmour, who is right of Le Pen finished 4th with 7.1%. 

Apparently, turn out was down.  

So round 2 is a repeat of 2017, Macron vs. Le Pen on April 24th.

[hobbes2702 13,049]

I cannot believe Le Pen is that close to Macron with the Ukrainian invasion still on going. Absolutely insane 

[bolverk 29,694]

If you add up Le Pen and Zemmour's support, you get to 30% which is just shy of what Le Pen received in the second round of the last election. So, support for the far right appears like it's about the same as before. Macron actually gained in support if you compare the first round of 2017 (24%) to yesterday's vote. That's the optimistic spin on yesterday.

The problem for Macron is that he's a centrist who has drifted to the right on several domestic policies, which puts into doubt whether the Left will turnout for him in the upcoming second round. They did last time, but a whole lot of French progressives are in no mood to enthusiastically back him.

Mélenchon is a bit of a Bernie Sanders type and his supporters are very much like Mélenchon's. Hell, just like Bernie, Mélenchon hasn't immediately asked his voters to back Macron. At least he's told his supporters shouldn't even think about voting for Le Pen though. Zemmour, on the other hand, has already endorsed her.

So, it comes down to hoping that a fractured Left can once again join up with the center (and even the center-right) in stopping Le Pen. If they don't, it would mean near calamity for the Western Alliance.

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11,669]

g elliot said that their models give le pen the same chance winning that trump had in 2016.  womp womp.

[Pato del Muerto 52,531]

Are French leftys smart enough to vote for the centrist to avoid electing the righty?

[bolverk 29,694]

2 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

g elliot said that their models give le pen the same chance winning that trump had in 2016.  womp womp.

[bolverk 29,694]

2 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Are French leftys smart enough to vote for the centrist to avoid electing the righty?

They were last time, but Macron has a lot of making up to do in a very short period to get them back on board.

[Pato del Muerto 52,531]

2 minutes ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

g elliot said that their models give le pen the same chance winning that trump had in 2016.  womp womp.

Well trump committed massive voting fraud to pull that one off. I have zero proof other than he was saying before the election that his opponent would be committing fraud, coupled with the difference in polling vs results. 

[RomaVicta 29,940]

Does France also have boiling racial issues and xenophobia? I wouldn't be surprised if they do. I'm sure the Russians have been working to erode their faith in their institutions and news sources just like they've done throughout the West.

It may be, and this is rank speculation on my part, that they face the same paradigm shift we do from normal partisan politics to a battle between pro- and anti-republic forces. 

As Hobbes writes above, it's shocking this is so close with the Ukraine War raging. I, probably naively, thought that the West's appreciation of their own government styles would get a boost. As usual, my political prediction looks wrong.

[bolverk 29,694]

7 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Does France also have boiling racial issues and xenophobia? I wouldn't be surprised if they do. I'm sure the Russians have been working to erode their faith in their institutions and news sources just like they've done throughout the West.

It may be, and this is rank speculation on my part, that they face the same paradigm shift we do from normal partisan politics to a battle between pro- and anti-republic forces. 

As Hobbes writes above, it's shocking this is so close with the Ukraine War raging. I, probably naively, thought that the West's appreciation of their own government styles would get a boost. As usual, my political prediction looks wrong.

Yes, they absolutely do. That's, in large part, the basis for any support that Le Pen and Zemmour receive. Everything that is wrong in French society is blamed on immigrants...of which there is an abundance in France. And, yes, Le Pen has received a fair amount of financial support from Russia and is buddies with Putin.

Edited April 11, 2022 by bolverk

[SimonBolivar 10,958]

7 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Does France also have boiling racial issues and xenophobia?

Yes, but also the value of "Frenchness" is a really big deal to a lot of Frenchies which of course fits in those categories from time to time.

Edited April 11, 2022 by SimonBolivar

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,121]

5 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Yes, they absolutely do. That's, in large part, the basis for any support that Le Pen and Zemmour receive. Everything that is wrong in French society is blamed on immigrants...of which there is an abundance in France. And, yes, Le Pen has received a fair amount of financial support from Russia and is buddies with Putin.

This right here.  There is also a large divide between cities and rural communities (sound familiar?).

[bolverk 29,694]

9 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Yes, but also the value of "Frenchness" is a really big deal to a lot of Frenchies which of course fits in those categories from time to time.

It's true that they have a strong national identity, which they're mostly proud of. When patriotism veers toward nationalism, you need to start getting nervous.

[Neonmoon 38,129]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

Does France USA also have boiling racial issues and xenophobia? 

 

54 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Yes, they absolutely do. That's, in large part, the basis for any support that Le Pen and Zemmour Trump receives. Everything that is wrong in French American society is blamed on immigrants...of which there is an abundance in France America. And, yes, Le Pen Trump has received a fair amount of financial support from Russia and is buddies with Putin.

It's weird how much this fits. 

[TwiceHorn 31,509]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

 

It's weird how much this fits. 

It's really an international phenomenon.

[Macanudo 12,995]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's really an international phenomenon.

What starts here changes the world.  

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,876]

6 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

What starts here changes the world.  

[RDCanecutter 26,454]

I recently found out that Macron was from Amiens. I worked in that town from 2001-2002, about the same time that teenaged Macron would have been passing "Do you like me? Check oui ou non" notes to his teacher. Neither of them would have been in the crowd I hung with.

Another person I did hang with in Amiens was François Ruffin, who is now a deputy in the National Assembly. I knew him from Texas where he'd spent a year teaching French at UT. At the time he was a driven journalist rooting out corruption among local politicians, one of them even sued him, and won on a technicality. The judge awarded the pissed-off corrupt dude one franc. Or maybe one euro. It was around the time of the switchover.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,121]

37 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

I recently found out that Macron was from Amiens. I worked in that town from 2001-2002, about the same time that teenaged Macron would have been passing "Do you like me? Check oui ou non" notes to his teacher. Neither of them would have been in the crowd I hung with.

Another person I did hang with in Amiens was François Ruffin, who is now a deputy in the National Assembly. I knew him from Texas where he'd spent a year teaching French at UT. At the time he was a driven journalist rooting out corruption among local politicians, one of them even sued him, and won on a technicality. The judge awarded the pissed-off corrupt dude one franc. Or maybe one euro. It was around the time of the switchover.

Macron is about 3 weeks older than I am, give or take a day. When he was elected President of France, I honestly could not believe someone my age had become the President of France.  I mean, I cannot imagine a more stressful job that leader of a country like France, unless it was leader of the US.  I at one point as a little girl, I had aspirations to be President of the US.  Glad I got that out of my head very quickly.  I have a hard time not telling things like they are, and I would probably run afoul of most American voters when I told them how fucking dumb they are.

[RDCanecutter 26,454]

6 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Macron is about 3 weeks older than I am, give or take a day. When he was elected President of France, I honestly could not believe someone my age had become the President of France.  I mean, I cannot imagine a more stressful job that leader of a country like France, unless it was leader of the US.  I at one point as a little girl, I had aspirations to be President of the US.  Glad I got that out of my head very quickly.  I have a hard time not telling things like they are, and I would probably run afoul of most American voters when I told them how fucking dumb they are.

I haven't kept up with Macron, but I think early on he was given to lecturing people in the streets, which pissed them off. I guess they wanted cold detachment. Brutal criticism means the person cares. Actual friends will act actually friendly. All other situations are covered by military-style formulaic courtesy.

[Gap03 3,308]

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

 

It's weird how much this fits. 

I guess we'll see if Mélenchon voters = Bernie 2016 voters.  If so, we're fucked ... can you imagine the Putin - Trump - Le Pen axis of 2024?  Fuck it - I need a drink. 

[bolverk 29,694]

1 hour ago, RDCanecutter said:

I recently found out that Macron was from Amiens. I worked in that town from 2001-2002, about the same time that teenaged Macron would have been passing "Do you like me? Check oui ou non" notes to his teacher. Neither of them would have been in the crowd I hung with.

Another person I did hang with in Amiens was François Ruffin, who is now a deputy in the National Assembly. I knew him from Texas where he'd spent a year teaching French at UT. At the time he was a driven journalist rooting out corruption among local politicians, one of them even sued him, and won on a technicality. The judge awarded the pissed-off corrupt dude one franc. Or maybe one euro. It was around the time of the switchover.

I spent my year in and around Chantilly. One of my host sisters went to college in Amiens where we went up to see her once. Only real memory I have of it was seeing the reflection of a sunset off the cathedral's façade on a very cold evening. It's a really nice one--up there with Notre Dame.

[RDCanecutter 26,454]

10 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I spent my year in and around Chantilly. One of my host sisters went to college in Amiens where we went up to see her once. Only real memory I have of it was seeing the reflection of a sunset off the cathedral's façade on a very cold evening. It's a really nice one--up there with Notre Dame.

Yeah, back in 2001 they would project the original colors onto the carvings, it was kind of circus-wagon looking like the original paint job on the Parthenon.

I puzzled out that I probably walked down the road everyday where Roman soldier St. Martin gave half his cloak to the beggar.

The University of Picardy was out on the edge of town next to community farming plots. I'd play Tom Waits songs for my English classes, and that damn rooster in "Chocolate Jesus" sounded just like the live one across the road.

[bolverk 29,694]

4 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Yeah, back in 2001 they would project the original colors onto the carvings, it was kind of circus-wagon looking like the original paint job on the Parthenon.

I puzzled out that I probably walked down the road everyday where Roman soldier St. Martin gave half his cloak to the beggar.

The University of Picardy was out on the edge of town next to community farming plots. I'd play Tom Waits songs for my English classes, and that damn rooster in "Chocolate Jesus" sounded just like the live one across the road.

Had a couple of epiphanies that felt briefly like time travel - once in Senlis and the other was checking out the dolmen near Carnac.

I was just an 18yo dumbass in '89-'90 and hadn't yet gotten into Tom Waits, but I can well imagine moody French college students shoegazing the shit out of his sound and vibe.

[Brisketexan 105,161]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's really an international phenomenon.

Correct.

Driven by the same general players, chief among them Russia, which has a huge and vested interest in a weakened, destabilized, and inward-focused West.  That's what this exact stew of xenophobic authoritarian populism delivers.

Le Pen is one of their pet projects.

Brexit was one of their pet projects.

Trump was one of their pet projects (and still is).

When it comes to asymmetric warfare against the West, Russia has been pretty fucking successful.

[softlynow 1,816]

34 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Correct.

Driven by the same general players, chief among them Russia, which has a huge and vested interest in a weakened, destabilized, and inward-focused West.  That's what this exact stew of xenophobic authoritarian populism delivers.

Le Pen is one of their pet projects.

Brexit was one of their pet projects.

Trump was one of their pet projects (and still is).

When it comes to asymmetric warfare against the West, Russia has been pretty fucking successful.

Certainly keeps them in the game despite how terrible they are at traditional warfare.

[Brisketexan 105,161]

24 minutes ago, softlynow said:

Certainly keeps them in the game despite how terrible they are at traditional warfare.

It's not a bad play.

For example, there are four basic ways to get girls:

1 - be attractive

2 - be talented (athletics, musician)

3 - be rich

4 - be clever/funny

Plenty on this board know me IRL, and know that 1-3 don't apply and never did.  But I always had enough game with number 4 that I did just fine with the ladies.

You work with what you've got.  Russia is really, really good at fucking with people's heads, deception, and manipulation.  That, and that alone, can get them most of the way there.  Of course, the problem they're finding out is that to close the deal and go the last mile, they need a military to take advantage of the weakness/chaos they have sown.  And, umm, they're falling short.

 

[Blotto 23,560]

21 minutes ago, softlynow said:

Certainly keeps them in the game despite how terrible they are at traditional warfare.

Setting aside nukes where nobody wins, no country wants to square up with the US in conventional warfare. As it turns out, you dont need to. Just destroy the country from within. And there's no shortage of takers to volunteer to assist in that process. 

[bolverk 29,694]

Marine Le Pen says she supports sanctions against Russia, but not on energy.

Marine Le Pen, the far-right candidate who is in this month’s runoff vote in France’s presidential election, said on Tuesday that she supported most sanctions against Russia over the war in Ukraine but opposed those on energy sources because they could hurt French pocketbooks.

“I don’t want the French to bear the brunt of decisions that would aim to stop gas or oil imports, because I know the consequences that will have for the cost of energy,” Ms. Le Pen told France Inter radio, adding that she was “here to defend the French.”

She said she was “perfectly in favor of all the other sanctions.”

Ms. Le Pen, the leader of France’s far-right National Rally party, has previously expressed similar positions. She has condemned Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and last month told the broadcaster TF1 that she was in favor of “all sanctions” as long as they did not harm France’s economy.

But she has been criticized for her admiration for President Vladimir V. Putin and her support for closer ties between France and Russia. Her party received a loan from a Russian bank, she has declared that Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014 was not illegal and she visited Mr. Putin in Moscow in 2017 before France’s last presidential elections.

Ms. Le Pen defended herself on France Inter, saying that the annexation of Crimea was not done militarily and that it was important for France to cultivate good relations with Russia — as President Emmanuel Macron has done in the past, she argued, pointing to the time Mr. Macron welcomed Mr. Putin at his summer residence in 2019.

“Russia is not going to disappear,” Ms. Le Pen said, “and I think it would be very negative for Europe if Russia anchored itself to China for good.”

[Pato del Muerto 52,531]

14 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

It's not a bad play.

For example, there are four basic ways to get girls:

1 - be attractive

2 - be talented (athletics, musician)

3 - be rich

4 - be clever/funny

Plenty on this board know me IRL, and know that 1-3 don't apply and never did.  But I always had enough game with number 4 that I did just fine with the ladies.

You work with what you've got.  Russia is really, really good at fucking with people's heads, deception, and manipulation.  That, and that alone, can get them most of the way there.  Of course, the problem they're finding out is that to close the deal and go the last mile, they need a military to take advantage of the weakness/chaos they have sown.  And, umm, they're falling short.

 

It’s a very acute demonstration of chess vs checkers.  They are willing to play checkers with you, but they are playing chess as well whether you know you are in that game or not. 

[bolverk 29,694]

Endorsements from all the candidates are out. Quick grid showing relative support from each based on their vote share in the 1st round. That group led by Mélenchon is the one I worry most about not showing up, even though they've made clear that they don't support Le Pen. Again, these are the French Bernie Bros.

[immamac 42,872]

Imagine having to vote twice for president. 

[bolverk 29,694]

2 minutes ago, immamac said:

Imagine having to vote twice for president. 

At least their campaign season is really short - like only 2-3 months. Hell, for all intents and purposes, Macron didn't really even campaign.

The primaries are mostly held in the fall but those are pretty subdued affairs where it's like one vote and then done unless a run-off is needed. Their candidates aren't traipsing all over the country holding elections in each subsequent region for months and months.

It's probably one of the reasons they get pretty good turn-out. There's been chatter about how bad turn-out was for the first round but it was still about 74% who voted.

Our burned out public could only muster 67% and that was a record high for this century.

[Blotto 23,560]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

At least their campaign season is really short - like only 2-3 months

What a goddamn pleasure that would be. 

[bolverk 29,694]

Pretty good summary of the race and issues. The whole thing really does read like an American-style race where a moderate/conservative Dem is trying to pick up the progressive Bernie Bro vote at the last minute while the right-wing Republican is throwing out populist positions to appeal to the disaffected.

 

Macron and Le Pen Trade Jabs and Lean Left as French Race Heats Up
President Emmanuel Macron and Marine Le Pen, the far-right candidate, are in close contention as the April 24 presidential runoff election nears.

PARIS — France’s presidential election entered a new, intense phase on Tuesday as President Emmanuel Macron and Marine Le Pen, the far-right candidate trying to unseat him, traded barbs from afar and rubbed shoulders with voters in hopes of widening their appeal, especially on the left.

Mr. Macron, who spent the day in eastern France, and Ms. Le Pen, who was campaigning in Normandy, are competing in the second round of voting in the elections, a rematch of their 2017 face-off that will be held on April 24.

In the first round of voting on Sunday, both attracted a bigger share of voters than they did five years ago — Mr. Macron with 27.85 percent of the vote, up from 24.01 in 2017, and Ms. Le Pen, of the National Rally party, with 23.15 percent. It was the largest proportion ever gained by a far-right candidate in the first round of voting, and almost 2 percentage points more than in 2017.

The latest polls predict a very close runoff, and put Mr. Macron only slightly ahead.

With less than two weeks to go before the vote, Mr. Macron has picked up the pace, seeking to dispel criticism that his campaign ahead of the first round was unfocused and that he appeared distracted by his diplomatic efforts to end the war in Ukraine.

In Mulhouse, a city in the Alsace region, Mr. Macron navigated crowds to shake the hands of those who supported him and debate those who did not, many of whom sharply questioned him on issues like purchasing power, welfare benefits and hospital funding.

“I’m on the field,” Mr. Macron pointedly told a scrum of television reporters, emphasizing that for the past two days he had chosen to meet voters in towns that had not voted for him.

He sought to portray Ms. Le Pen as unfit to govern.

Ms. Le Pen, for example, says she has no intention of leaving the European Union — but many of her promised policies would flout its rules. Mr. Macron dismissed her assurances as “carabistouilles,” an old-fashioned term that roughly translates to “claptrap” or “nonsense.”

“The election is also a referendum on Europe,” Mr. Macron said later at a public meeting in Strasbourg, where supporters waved French and European Union flags in the shadow of the city’s imposing cathedral.

Roland Lescure, a lawmaker in France’s lower house of Parliament for Mr. Macron’s party, La République en Marche, said that the campaign was now focused on getting Mr. Macron as much direct face time with voters as possible.

“The method is contact,” Mr. Lescure said, warning that there is a real risk of Ms. Le Pen being elected. “We have to campaign at full speed and until the end.”

Mr. Macron’s stature as a leader who was at the helm throughout the Covid-19 pandemic and the war in Ukraine is not enough to secure him a new term, and neither is admonishing voters about the threat of the far right, Mr. Lescure said.

“It’s not the devil against the angel,” he said. “It’s social models that are fundamentally opposed. We need to show what Marine Le Pen’s platform would do to France.”

On Tuesday, Mr. Macron was endorsed by Nicolas Sarkozy, France’s right-wing president from 2007 to 2012. Ms. Le Pen’s campaign unveiled an official poster reminiscent of Mr. Macron’s official presidential portrait. Ms. Le Pen’s has a tagline: “For all the French.”

After the collapse of France’s traditional left-wing and right-wing parties on Sunday, much of the candidates’ energy is now devoted to wooing voters who either abstained in the first round or picked Jean-Luc Mélenchon, the radical leftist and veteran politician who came in a strong third place, with 21.95 percent of the vote.

For Ms. Le Pen, that means highlighting economic proposals like a lower sales tax on essential goods, but also keeping Éric Zemmour, another far-right politician, at arm’s length.

Mr. Zemmour, a pundit who shook up French politics with his presidential bid, came in fourth on Sunday, and polls suggest that over 80 percent of those who picked him in the first round intend to vote for Ms. Le Pen in the second. That gives her little incentive to court them openly as she tries to reinvent herself in the eyes of mainstream voters.

On Tuesday, Ms. Le Pen flatly rejected the possibility of making Mr. Zemmour one of her ministers should she win, telling France Inter radio that “he doesn’t wish to and neither do I.”

For Mr. Macron, attracting Mr. Mélenchon’s voters means toning down proposals that are particularly taboo on the left, especially his plans to raise the legal age of retirement from 62 to 65, which he says is necessary to keep funding France’s state pension system.

On Monday, he insisted that he would gradually push back the retirement age by four months per year starting in 2023, but he said he was open to discussing a softening of the plan in its later stages, although how and to what degree is still unclear. During his first term, Mr. Macron’s pension proposals were derailed by massive strikes and protests.

Ms. Le Pen, speaking Tuesday at a news conference in Vernon, a town in Normandy where she also mingled with crowds, dismissed Mr. Macron’s concession as a feeble attempt to attract left-wing voters, and called his platform “social carnage.”

She detailed several proposals that she hoped would attract voters who supported Mr. Mélenchon, like creating a mechanism for referendums proposed by popular initiative, or introducing proportional representation in Parliament.

“I intend to be a president who gives the people their voice back,” she said.

Mr. Mélenchon was particularly popular with urban voters, coming ahead in cities like Lille, Marseille, Montpellier and Nantes, and he scored high with France’s youth. One study by the Ipsos and Sopra Steria polling institutes found that over 30 percent of those 35 and younger had voted for him, more than for any other candidate.

Marie Montagne, 21, and Ellina Abdellaoui, 22, both English literature students standing in front of the Sorbonne University in Paris, said that Mr. Mélenchon had not necessarily been their first choice — online quizzes suggested to Ms. Abdellaoui that she was most compatible with Philippe Poutou, a fringe anticapitalist candidate.

But Mr. Mélenchon’s leftist, ecological platform was still appealing, they said, and he seemed like the left-wing candidate best positioned to reach the runoff. Now, though, the two students said they faced a difficult choice.

“I am hesitating between abstaining and Macron,” Ms. Abdellaoui said. “I can’t vote for Le Pen.”

Ms. Montagne said she would vote for the incumbent “because I don’t want the smallest chance of the far-right passing.”

“But I won’t vote for him because I enjoy it,” she added.

[bolverk 29,694]

 

[Voldemort86 2,259]

Cmon macron. Is he the favorite?
 

la pen would do all sorts of crazy shit like take France out of NATO.

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

Read an article a while back about Macron wanting to raise the retirement age, which I think both of his opponents leaped on.  He appears to be back pedaling on that idea now.

[RDCanecutter 26,454]

3 hours ago, Voldemort86 said:

Cmon macron. Is he the favorite?
 

la pen would do all sorts of crazy shit like take France out of NATO.

But on the other hand, she'd re-annex Algeria and half the rest of Africa, and have us all wearing scarves and smoking cigarettes at the little corner cafe near the new Citroen 2CV factory.

[BrazilHorn 6,619]

Will either of them be able to build a meaningful coalition to get shit done if they win?

Le Pen could win but not have any support beneath her in parliment to get anything accomplished. Macron no longer has a majority either it doesn't look like that will change.

 

[bolverk 29,694]

1 hour ago, RDCanecutter said:

But on the other hand, she'd re-annex Algeria and half the rest of Africa, and have us all wearing scarves and smoking cigarettes at the little corner cafe near the new Citroen 2CV factory.

Friend of mine had one of the those Deux Chevaux. I'm not sure how many times we had to push that thing to get it to jump start.

[bolverk 29,694]

40 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

Will either of them be able to build a meaningful coalition to get shit done if they win?

Le Pen could win but not have any support beneath her in parliment to get anything accomplished. Macron no longer has a majority either it doesn't look like that will change.

 

I think she'd pretty much wreck their foreign relations but might be able to muster support for some of her anti-immigrant stuff. I think she's also pushing for more public referenda on other culture war shit, which plays to her populist base but a BIG change from how their government normally runs.

With Macron still in charge, I doubt anyone outside the country would notice too much change, and the left-centrist coalition he'd rely on would slow role some of his more drastic labor market reforms (e.g., retirement age). France, already a country that's big on nuclear energy, would likely start seeing new investments as that's one of his big domestic agenda items.

[RDCanecutter 26,454]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

Friend of mine had one of the those Deux Chevaux. I'm not sure how many times we had to push that thing to get it to jump start.

Same as with an old VW, you gotta park them on hills, always be thinking one rolling-start ahead.

[ConferenceRoom 6,144]

Friend of mine had one of the those Deux Chevaux. I'm not sure how many times we had to push that thing to get it to jump start.

Was your friend a high school tennis coach?

[bolverk 29,694]

This must be what it's like to watch a Trump presidential campaign from a European point of view.

Le Pen Backs NATO-Russia Reconciliation and Reduced French Role in Alliance

PARIS — Rejecting a “herd-like conformity” with the Biden administration, Marine Le Pen, the French far-right candidate for the presidency, said Wednesday that France would quit NATO’s integrated military command if she were elected and would seek for the alliance “a strategic rapprochement” with Russia.

As Russia’s war in Ukraine rages on, Ms. Le Pen effectively signaled that her election would terminate or at least disrupt President Biden’s united alliance in confronting President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, and perhaps create a breach in Western Europe for Mr. Putin to exploit.

Dismissing multilateralism, blasting Germany, criticizing the European Union, relegating climate issues to a low priority, attacking “globalists” and maintaining a near silence on Russia’s brutal assault in Ukraine, Ms. Le Pen gave a taste of a worldview that was at once reminiscent of the Trump presidency and appeared to directly threaten NATO’s attempts to arm Ukraine and defeat Russia.

A lurch to the far right by France, a nuclear power and permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, would realign the world, with unpredictable and disruptive consequences.

In a wide-ranging 75-minute news conference devoted to international relations, and apparently conceived to bolster her credentials on the global stage, Ms. Le Pen said France would remain in NATO and respect its core Article 5, which says an attack on one alliance member is an attack on all.

But, she added, “I would place our troops neither under an integrated NATO command nor under a European command.”

Her position, she said, was “no submission to an American protectorate exercised on European soil under the cover of NATO” — a stance she compared to that taken by Gen. Charles de Gaulle in 1966, when he took France out of NATO’s integrated military command, where it remained until 2009.

Her position, she said, did not signal “submission to Moscow.” But her promise to withdraw France from the command was consistent with the policy of “equidistance” from great powers she said she would pursue if she defeats the incumbent, President Emmanuel Macron, in a runoff vote for the French presidency on April 24.

Polls show Mr. Macron with 53 to 55 percent of the vote, ahead of Ms. Le Pen with 45 to 47 percent. But the political situation is volatile as the president, scurrying around the country, scrambles to make up for a lackluster initial campaign. The French nationalist extreme right is closer to attaining power than at any time since World War II.

The proposed rapprochement with Russia, “once the Russian-Ukrainian war is over and settled by a peace treaty,” would even be in the interest of the United States, Ms. Le Pen suggested, because Washington would not be served by a “close Russian-Chinese union.”

Ms. Le Pen, the leader of the National Rally, formerly the National Front, a fiercely anti-immigrant party, dismissed the Biden administration as “too aggressive toward Beijing,” saying the United States “needs enemies in order to unite its allies under its domination.”

It was one of very few references to the United States, none of them positive, as Ms. Le Pen embarked on a kind of world tour of her preoccupations that also omitted Russia but did include a long exegesis of why France has solemn obligations in Lebanon.

“France is not France without grandeur,” she declared.

Nor is it France without protests. The news conference was briefly disrupted by a protester carrying a heart-shaped image of Ms. Le Pen and Mr. Putin. The protester was wrestled to the ground and dragged out by security guards.

Ms. Le Pen said that the “nonaligned” France she imagined “would threaten enemies of the Western camp in a more effective way because the country would no longer follow an alignment with the United States and so would cause greater, dissuasive uneasiness in the calculations of all adversaries.”

Mr. Macron has attacked Ms. Le Pen as intent on the destruction of the European Union and compared the April 24 vote to a referendum on Europe. Nationalism, he said Tuesday in Strasbourg, leads to “an alliance of nations that want to make war.”

Ms. Le Pen said that a British-style exit from the European Union was not in her plans but that she favored a “European alliance of nations,” rejecting Mr. Macron’s frequent references to “European sovereignty” and “European strategic autonomy.” In practice she favors a series of measures — including favoring French over E.U. citizens for jobs and housing — designed to undermine the 27-member union.

The same objective appeared to lie behind her diatribe against Germany, France’s most important partner in the construction of a united Europe. Franco-German friendship has stood at the heart of postwar Europe, the symbol of the continent’s healing after the devastation of two world wars.

Ms. Le Pen declared that France and Germany confronted “irreconcilable strategic differences.”

She said she would stop all cooperation with Germany on the development of new military equipment in order to pursue national programs. She denounced the “discreet and clever hegemony over Europe” orchestrated by Angela Merkel, the former German chancellor. She suggested that Germany has embarked on a surreptitious plan to subvert France’s centralized model with a German federal model or even the creation of “big border-crossing regions.”

Germany would not be allowed to “destroy the French nuclear industry,” Ms. Le Pen vowed. She insisted that Germany’s interests diverged from France’s in that Germany “considers NATO as the natural pillar of its security, yesterday and today, which leads it to buy American.”

Driving home her point, Ms. Le Pen said, “Germany thus represents the polar opposite of France’s strategic identity.” Nevertheless, she said, “I want to underline that I have no hostility to the German nation.”

The overall message was clear enough. Dismissive of French-German cooperation, hostile or suspicious toward the United States and NATO, seeking rapprochement with Russia and a softer approach to China, Ms. Le Pen would take France in a direction that, for the Biden administration, would severely test one of America’s oldest alliances at a time of war in Europe.

[Brisketexan 105,161]

This must be what it's like to watch a Trump presidential campaign from a European point of view.
Le Pen Backs NATO-Russia Reconciliation and Reduced French Role in Alliance
PARIS — Rejecting a “herd-like conformity” with the Biden administration, Marine Le Pen, the French far-right candidate for the presidency, said Wednesday that France would quit NATO’s integrated military command if she were elected and would seek for the alliance “a strategic rapprochement” with Russia.
As Russia’s war in Ukraine rages on, Ms. Le Pen effectively signaled that her election would terminate or at least disrupt President Biden’s united alliance in confronting President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, and perhaps create a breach in Western Europe for Mr. Putin to exploit.
Dismissing multilateralism, blasting Germany, criticizing the European Union, relegating climate issues to a low priority, attacking “globalists” and maintaining a near silence on Russia’s brutal assault in Ukraine, Ms. Le Pen gave a taste of a worldview that was at once reminiscent of the Trump presidency and appeared to directly threaten NATO’s attempts to arm Ukraine and defeat Russia.
A lurch to the far right by France, a nuclear power and permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, would realign the world, with unpredictable and disruptive consequences.
In a wide-ranging 75-minute news conference devoted to international relations, and apparently conceived to bolster her credentials on the global stage, Ms. Le Pen said France would remain in NATO and respect its core Article 5, which says an attack on one alliance member is an attack on all.
But, she added, “I would place our troops neither under an integrated NATO command nor under a European command.”
Her position, she said, was “no submission to an American protectorate exercised on European soil under the cover of NATO” — a stance she compared to that taken by Gen. Charles de Gaulle in 1966, when he took France out of NATO’s integrated military command, where it remained until 2009.
Her position, she said, did not signal “submission to Moscow.” But her promise to withdraw France from the command was consistent with the policy of “equidistance” from great powers she said she would pursue if she defeats the incumbent, President Emmanuel Macron, in a runoff vote for the French presidency on April 24.
Polls show Mr. Macron with 53 to 55 percent of the vote, ahead of Ms. Le Pen with 45 to 47 percent. But the political situation is volatile as the president, scurrying around the country, scrambles to make up for a lackluster initial campaign. The French nationalist extreme right is closer to attaining power than at any time since World War II.
The proposed rapprochement with Russia, “once the Russian-Ukrainian war is over and settled by a peace treaty,” would even be in the interest of the United States, Ms. Le Pen suggested, because Washington would not be served by a “close Russian-Chinese union.”
Ms. Le Pen, the leader of the National Rally, formerly the National Front, a fiercely anti-immigrant party, dismissed the Biden administration as “too aggressive toward Beijing,” saying the United States “needs enemies in order to unite its allies under its domination.”
It was one of very few references to the United States, none of them positive, as Ms. Le Pen embarked on a kind of world tour of her preoccupations that also omitted Russia but did include a long exegesis of why France has solemn obligations in Lebanon.
“France is not France without grandeur,” she declared.
Nor is it France without protests. The news conference was briefly disrupted by a protester carrying a heart-shaped image of Ms. Le Pen and Mr. Putin. The protester was wrestled to the ground and dragged out by security guards.
Ms. Le Pen said that the “nonaligned” France she imagined “would threaten enemies of the Western camp in a more effective way because the country would no longer follow an alignment with the United States and so would cause greater, dissuasive uneasiness in the calculations of all adversaries.”
Mr. Macron has attacked Ms. Le Pen as intent on the destruction of the European Union and compared the April 24 vote to a referendum on Europe. Nationalism, he said Tuesday in Strasbourg, leads to “an alliance of nations that want to make war.”
Ms. Le Pen said that a British-style exit from the European Union was not in her plans but that she favored a “European alliance of nations,” rejecting Mr. Macron’s frequent references to “European sovereignty” and “European strategic autonomy.” In practice she favors a series of measures — including favoring French over E.U. citizens for jobs and housing — designed to undermine the 27-member union.
The same objective appeared to lie behind her diatribe against Germany, France’s most important partner in the construction of a united Europe. Franco-German friendship has stood at the heart of postwar Europe, the symbol of the continent’s healing after the devastation of two world wars.
Ms. Le Pen declared that France and Germany confronted “irreconcilable strategic differences.”
She said she would stop all cooperation with Germany on the development of new military equipment in order to pursue national programs. She denounced the “discreet and clever hegemony over Europe” orchestrated by Angela Merkel, the former German chancellor. She suggested that Germany has embarked on a surreptitious plan to subvert France’s centralized model with a German federal model or even the creation of “big border-crossing regions.”
Germany would not be allowed to “destroy the French nuclear industry,” Ms. Le Pen vowed. She insisted that Germany’s interests diverged from France’s in that Germany “considers NATO as the natural pillar of its security, yesterday and today, which leads it to buy American.”
Driving home her point, Ms. Le Pen said, “Germany thus represents the polar opposite of France’s strategic identity.” Nevertheless, she said, “I want to underline that I have no hostility to the German nation.”
The overall message was clear enough. Dismissive of French-German cooperation, hostile or suspicious toward the United States and NATO, seeking rapprochement with Russia and a softer approach to China, Ms. Le Pen would take France in a direction that, for the Biden administration, would severely test one of America’s oldest alliances at a time of war in Europe.

TLDR version: Marine Le Putin.

The fucking slavish right wing alignment with totalitarians and authoritarians is a fucking sickness, and it may well succeed in killing us all.

[Bullneck 19,184]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:38 PM, bolverk said:

This must be what it's like to watch a Trump presidential campaign from a European point of view.

Le Pen Backs NATO-Russia Reconciliation and Reduced French Role in Alliance

PARIS — Rejecting a “herd-like conformity” with the Biden administration, Marine Le Pen, the French far-right candidate for the presidency, said Wednesday that France would quit NATO’s integrated military command if she were elected and would seek for the alliance “a strategic rapprochement” with Russia.

As Russia’s war in Ukraine rages on, Ms. Le Pen effectively signaled that her election would terminate or at least disrupt President Biden’s united alliance in confronting President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, and perhaps create a breach in Western Europe for Mr. Putin to exploit.

Dismissing multilateralism, blasting Germany, criticizing the European Union, relegating climate issues to a low priority, attacking “globalists” and maintaining a near silence on Russia’s brutal assault in Ukraine, Ms. Le Pen gave a taste of a worldview that was at once reminiscent of the Trump presidency and appeared to directly threaten NATO’s attempts to arm Ukraine and defeat Russia.

A lurch to the far right by France, a nuclear power and permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, would realign the world, with unpredictable and disruptive consequences.

In a wide-ranging 75-minute news conference devoted to international relations, and apparently conceived to bolster her credentials on the global stage, Ms. Le Pen said France would remain in NATO and respect its core Article 5, which says an attack on one alliance member is an attack on all.

But, she added, “I would place our troops neither under an integrated NATO command nor under a European command.”

Her position, she said, was “no submission to an American protectorate exercised on European soil under the cover of NATO” — a stance she compared to that taken by Gen. Charles de Gaulle in 1966, when he took France out of NATO’s integrated military command, where it remained until 2009.

Her position, she said, did not signal “submission to Moscow.” But her promise to withdraw France from the command was consistent with the policy of “equidistance” from great powers she said she would pursue if she defeats the incumbent, President Emmanuel Macron, in a runoff vote for the French presidency on April 24.

Polls show Mr. Macron with 53 to 55 percent of the vote, ahead of Ms. Le Pen with 45 to 47 percent. But the political situation is volatile as the president, scurrying around the country, scrambles to make up for a lackluster initial campaign. The French nationalist extreme right is closer to attaining power than at any time since World War II.

The proposed rapprochement with Russia, “once the Russian-Ukrainian war is over and settled by a peace treaty,” would even be in the interest of the United States, Ms. Le Pen suggested, because Washington would not be served by a “close Russian-Chinese union.”

Ms. Le Pen, the leader of the National Rally, formerly the National Front, a fiercely anti-immigrant party, dismissed the Biden administration as “too aggressive toward Beijing,” saying the United States “needs enemies in order to unite its allies under its domination.”

It was one of very few references to the United States, none of them positive, as Ms. Le Pen embarked on a kind of world tour of her preoccupations that also omitted Russia but did include a long exegesis of why France has solemn obligations in Lebanon.

“France is not France without grandeur,” she declared.

Nor is it France without protests. The news conference was briefly disrupted by a protester carrying a heart-shaped image of Ms. Le Pen and Mr. Putin. The protester was wrestled to the ground and dragged out by security guards.

Ms. Le Pen said that the “nonaligned” France she imagined “would threaten enemies of the Western camp in a more effective way because the country would no longer follow an alignment with the United States and so would cause greater, dissuasive uneasiness in the calculations of all adversaries.”

Mr. Macron has attacked Ms. Le Pen as intent on the destruction of the European Union and compared the April 24 vote to a referendum on Europe. Nationalism, he said Tuesday in Strasbourg, leads to “an alliance of nations that want to make war.”

Ms. Le Pen said that a British-style exit from the European Union was not in her plans but that she favored a “European alliance of nations,” rejecting Mr. Macron’s frequent references to “European sovereignty” and “European strategic autonomy.” In practice she favors a series of measures — including favoring French over E.U. citizens for jobs and housing — designed to undermine the 27-member union.

The same objective appeared to lie behind her diatribe against Germany, France’s most important partner in the construction of a united Europe. Franco-German friendship has stood at the heart of postwar Europe, the symbol of the continent’s healing after the devastation of two world wars.

Ms. Le Pen declared that France and Germany confronted “irreconcilable strategic differences.”

She said she would stop all cooperation with Germany on the development of new military equipment in order to pursue national programs. She denounced the “discreet and clever hegemony over Europe” orchestrated by Angela Merkel, the former German chancellor. She suggested that Germany has embarked on a surreptitious plan to subvert France’s centralized model with a German federal model or even the creation of “big border-crossing regions.”

Germany would not be allowed to “destroy the French nuclear industry,” Ms. Le Pen vowed. She insisted that Germany’s interests diverged from France’s in that Germany “considers NATO as the natural pillar of its security, yesterday and today, which leads it to buy American.”

Driving home her point, Ms. Le Pen said, “Germany thus represents the polar opposite of France’s strategic identity.” Nevertheless, she said, “I want to underline that I have no hostility to the German nation.”

The overall message was clear enough. Dismissive of French-German cooperation, hostile or suspicious toward the United States and NATO, seeking rapprochement with Russia and a softer approach to China, Ms. Le Pen would take France in a direction that, for the Biden administration, would severely test one of America’s oldest alliances at a time of war in Europe.

My takeaway is pay attention to where you get your education ratings.  The top list says we're the best (so, immediate cause for suspicion):

Countries with the Best Educational Systems - 2021 Best Countries Report*

1. The United States
2. The United Kingdom
3. Germany
4. Canada
5. France
6. Switzerland
7. Japan
8. Australia
9. Sweden
10. The Netherlands

*For the full list of countries' educational systems ranked from best to worst, scroll down.

Ironically, despite the United States having the best-surveyed education system on the globe, U.S students consistently score lower in math and science than students from many other countries. According to a Business Insider report in 2018, the U.S. ranked 38th in math scores and 24th in science. Discussions about why the United States' education rankings have fallen by international standards over the past three decades frequently point out that government spending on education has failed to keep up with inflation.

It's also worthwhile to note that while the Best Countries study is certainly respectable, other studies use different methodologies or emphasize different criteria, which often leads to different results. For example, the Global Citizens for Human Rights' annual study measures ten levels of education from early childhood enrollment rates to adult literacy. Its final 2020 rankings look a bit different:

Countries with the Best Educational Systems - 2020 Global Citizens for Human Rights

1. Denmark
2. Finland
3. Japan
4. Canada
5. Sweden
6. Germany
7. Israel
8. Netherlands
9. Singapore
10. South Korea

[GopherRock 1,765]

https://www.dw.com/en/france-le-pen-faces-embezzlement-claims-ahead-of-election-runoff/a-61499951

France: Le Pen faces embezzlement claims ahead of election runoff

French prosecutors are looking into a EU report which accuses far-right candidate Marine Le Pen and her associates of embezzling over €600,000.

[Chad Fuck 17,687]

1 minute ago, GopherRock said:

https://www.dw.com/en/france-le-pen-faces-embezzlement-claims-ahead-of-election-runoff/a-61499951

France: Le Pen faces embezzlement claims ahead of election runoff

French prosecutors are looking into a EU report which accuses far-right candidate Marine Le Pen and her associates of embezzling over €600,000.

That does it.  She's a lock. 

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11,669]

On 4/14/2022 at 6:51 PM, Brisketexan said:

TLDR version: Marine Le Putin.

Marine Le Petain was right there.