Best NBA team's starting five

[closetohumping 17,435]

2 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

Shawn Kemp lacked work ethic, but the talent was there.  I am too young to remember Haywood, but prime Kemp was a sight to behold.

He was the twitchiest PF back then.

3 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Thunder:

PG -- Gary Payton

SG -- James Harden

SF -- Kevin Durant

PF -- Shawn Kemp

C -- Jack Sikma

See what I did there.....?

They likely wouldn't start but Ray Allen, Detlef, Perkins, Westbrook

[shadow_operative 15,932]

what about LAL + BOS vs everyone else? or LAL and Philly? 

[closetohumping 17,435]

6 hours ago, HookEm said:

BTW I'm not a Spurs fan. That Lakers team just seems like it would have too many mouths to feed.  Magic is at his best when out running (same with Worthy). Kobe could also run, but then you have Shaq and Kareem clogging everything up.  Those two bigs would NOT play well together. Neither was great outside the lane.  And the team wouldn't have the shooting necessary to keep people from clogging the paint.

Good point.

Magic and Kobe were not elite shooters. You'd need Jerry West in the line up.  A Magic/Jerry backcourt would be pretty bad defensively if they came up against say Parker and Kawhi.

[closetohumping 17,435]

10 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

what about LAL + BOS vs everyone else? or LAL and Philly? 

LAL/Boston

 

Magic

Kobe

Bird

Russell

Kareem/wilt/Shaq

 

League:

Stockton

MJ

KD

Duncan

Hakeem

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,547]

1 hour ago, closetohumping said:

LAL/Boston

 

Magic

Kobe

Bird

Russell

Kareem/wilt/Shaq

 

League:

Stockton

MJ

KD

Duncan

Hakeem

Stockton? Give me Oscar, Curry, Isiah or even Chris Paul over him.

[closetohumping 17,435]

2 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Stockton? Give me Oscar, Curry, Isiah or even Chris Paul over him.

Have to counter the other team that has a coach on the floor.   If you know what I mean

[hobbes2702 13,029]

14 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

I damn near threw an alley oop completely over the backboard and he still went up and put it home.  This was when he was prepping for the draft, so probably his peak athleticism.

I think been a couple times this has come up across the boards and every time I just cannot even fathom it. Kemp in pickup would be just brutal. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,068]

12 hours ago, closetohumping said:

He was the twitchiest PF back then.

They likely wouldn't start but Ray Allen, Detlef, Perkins, Westbrook

I’m a guy that things James Harden is criminally underrated by many around here and there is no doubt in my mind that Seattle Ray Allen would shit all over OKC James. 
Ray Allen in Seattle (and Milwaukee) was ducking awesome before becoming a (great) but one dimensional guy in Boston. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,068]

47 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Stockton? Give me Oscar, Curry, Isiah or even Chris Paul over him.

Isiah is the correct answer here. Run the team first and foremost and get everyone involved but could get his and be transcendent when he wanted to be. CP3 checks the same boxes but give me the guy that won multiple times as the best player on the team by a hair. 

[conVINCEd 21,469]

Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

Isiah is the correct answer here. Run the team first and foremost and get everyone involved but could get his and be transcendent when he wanted to be. CP3 checks the same boxes but give me the guy that won multiple times as the best player on the team by a hair. 

MJ would quit.

[Wulaw Horn 19,068]

1 minute ago, conVINCEd said:

MJ would quit.

Such a bitch ass move by him. If that’s true then I guess you go with CP3. Anyone but Stockton. 

[conVINCEd 21,469]

8 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I think been a couple times this has come up across the boards and every time I just cannot even fathom it. Kemp in pickup would be just brutal. 

It was fun.  It was mostly college guys and a few hs guys like me.  I was probably the worst player on the court.  We played for a couple of hours and Kemp dunked something like every other possession.

[HookEm 2,463]

Curry changes the game in a way that CP3, Isaiah and Stockton don't.  He is constantly running around and has to be contended with 100% of the time. And he stretches the floor all the way out to the logo. And he doesn't even need the ball to make an impact because his defender HAS to stay on him.  The only point guard I would take over him is Magic, and even that is debatable in a game like this.  Nobody approaches his skill at opening up the offense.

[closetohumping 17,435]

13 minutes ago, HookEm said:

Curry changes the game in a way that CP3, Isaiah and Stockton don't.  He is constantly running around and has to be contended with 100% of the time. And he stretches the floor all the way out to the logo. And he doesn't even need the ball to make an impact because his defender HAS to stay on him.  The only point guard I would take over him is Magic, and even that is debatable in a game like this.  Nobody approaches his skill at opening up the offense.

He would wear someone like Magic's ass down.  They'd put Kobe on him.  If Curry is hot, it doesn't matter who the opposing team's front line is.  To me though, guys like Wilt, Shaq, KD or Lebron are truly unguardable.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

y'all are tacitly shutting on Oscar, and that ain't right. it's either Oscar or Steph for me.

[Dutchrudder 11,135]

7 hours ago, closetohumping said:

LAL/Boston

 

Magic

Kobe

Bird

Russell

Kareem/wilt/Shaq

 

League:

Stockton

MJ

KD

Duncan

Hakeem

How does Lebron not make that team? He would easily replace Bird or Russell. 

[closetohumping 17,435]

3 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

How does Lebron not make that team? He would easily replace Bird or Russell. 

Easily?   Anyways I’m sticking with the 4 year rule. 

[ztejas 43,414]

26 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

Easily?   Anyways I’m sticking with the 4 year rule. 

So he doesn't make either team? We did this in the other thread already - you can't give the all time guys MJ and LeBron plus Curry and KD on top of it. Those are like 4 of the best 9 individual peaks ever. And Hakeem or Duncan might make it 5 of 9. I'd take those 5 over LA + BOS + whoever else you want.

Edited April 15, 2022 by ztejas

[ztejas 43,414]

I mean shit dude - give MJ and LeBron like Mike Bibby, JR Smith and Rodman and they'd bitch slap 20 of the all time 5 teams.

Edited April 15, 2022 by ztejas

[shadow_operative 15,932]

43 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

How does Lebron not make that team? He would easily replace Bird or Russell. 

uh, no. maybe he replaces bird- maybe- but if so, it is not "easily". and if it's the last possession of the game and one of them has to be in the bench, then LBJ will find his ass sitting in a chair watching Bird take the last shot.

think about this- what are LeBron's best assets as far as his basketball skill and acumen is concerned? it's his basketball IQ and his vision/passing. and Bird was superior at both, not to mention the gulf in class between he and lebron when it comes to shooting. he was also bigger than LeBron, something most people forget. Larry's back may have stunted his longevity, but other than athleticism he is better than LeBron at everything basketball related. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by shadow_operative

[shadow_operative 15,932]

also, people forget how good kevin mchale was. he's a top ~5 PF all time. he gets criminally underrated in these discussions. 

[Patrick Bateman 3,911]

5 hours ago, HookEm said:

Curry changes the game in a way that CP3, Isaiah and Stockton don't.  He is constantly running around and has to be contended with 100% of the time. And he stretches the floor all the way out to the logo. And he doesn't even need the ball to make an impact because his defender HAS to stay on him.  The only point guard I would take over him is Magic, and even that is debatable in a game like this.  Nobody approaches his skill at opening up the offense.

Tend to agree and he's certainly a better player than Stockton or Isiah. 

1 hour ago, Dutchrudder said:

How does Lebron not make that team? He would easily replace Bird or Russell. 

He'd replace Kobe, but he probably hasn't been there long enough.  Deserves to be on the All-NBA team.

 

3 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

y'all are tacitly shutting on Oscar, and that ain't right. it's either Oscar or Steph for me.

A lot of these players are products of their time so it's really hard to see them playing with a 3 point line.  Oscar is one of these.  If it's his era's rules?  I take the big O.  3 point line?  Probably Steph or someone else.  I'd probably just put Lebron at PG.

 

[Dutchrudder 11,135]

2 hours ago, closetohumping said:

Easily?   Anyways I’m sticking with the 4 year rule. 

Russell played in the league with like 8-12 teams at most. The average height of the league was around 6'4, so a 6'10 guy getting 20 rebounds a game isn't exactly spectacular considering the level of competition. No way get gets anywhere near that level of production now or in the 90s. He's overrated for that reason, and shouldn't be any top 10 all-time discussions.  

Bird had incredible vision and BB IQ, but do you really take him over peak Lebron?  

 

[closetohumping 17,435]

5 hours ago, ztejas said:

So he doesn't make either team? We did this in the other thread already - you can't give the all time guys MJ and LeBron plus Curry and KD on top of it. Those are like 4 of the best 9 individual peaks ever. And Hakeem or Duncan might make it 5 of 9. I'd take those 5 over LA + BOS + whoever else you want.

Good point.  He's the starting 3 over KD if we're unbiased.

[HookEm 2,463]

I would take peak Bird over peak LeBron. No question. But I would take career LeBron over career Bird.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

Just now, HookEm said:

I would take peak Bird over peak LeBron. No question. But I would take career LeBron over career Bird.

this is what it is. career wise it's LBJ > Larry. prime wise, it's Larry > LBJ. Larry was like the pre-Jokic- a total freak, just not athletic. we're so used to associating "Freak" with people like Giannis, Randy Moss, Jevon Kearse, etc, that we asóciate "freak" with "athletic freak". Bird was a basketball savant, and at his best he is inarguably a top 5 all time player. 

[ztejas 43,414]

Y'all can both be wrong. It's okay. 

[HookEm 2,463]

Larry Bird was waaay more athletic than people give him credit for. You don’t average 2 steals a game or 11 rebounds at 6’9 in the NBA unless you are very athletic.

[ztejas 43,414]

7 minutes ago, HookEm said:

Larry Bird was waaay more athletic than people give him credit for. You don’t average 2 steals a game or 11 rebounds at 6’9 in the NBA unless you are very athletic.

What about 34/9/9 and 2.4 stocks on 54 FG% across 22 playoff games? How many times did Bird do that? 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

Larry Bird is better than LeBron at every aspect of basketball aside from athleticism, and again, the gulf between them is shooting is massive. LeBron *still* can't shoot FTs, and is still particularly awful with the game on the line. there's nothing about LBJ skills-wise that is better than Larry Bird. 

Edited April 16, 2022 by shadow_operative

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,547]

28 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

Larry Bird is better than LeBron at every aspect of basketball aside from athleticism, and again, the gulf between them is shooting is massive. LeBron *still* can't shoot FTs, and is still particularly awful with the game on the line. there's nothing about LBJ skills-wise that is better than Larry Bird. 

LeBron is better finishing on the break and he's probably a better perimeter defender and weak side shot blocker if he feels like giving a shit that day, but everything else I agree with you. With the game on the line, it's a joke, the chasm between them. It's difficult to describe how truly great Bird was in crunch time. 

[Patrick Bateman 3,911]

42 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

Larry Bird is better than LeBron at every aspect of basketball aside from athleticism, and again, the gulf between them is shooting is massive. LeBron *still* can't shoot FTs, and is still particularly awful with the game on the line. there's nothing about LBJ skills-wise that is better than Larry Bird. 

That's a pretty bold statement.  Numbers don't agree with you.

 

6 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

LeBron is better finishing on the break and he's probably a better perimeter defender and weak side shot blocker if he feels like giving a shit that day, but everything else I agree with you. With the game on the line, it's a joke, the chasm between them. It's difficult to describe how truly great Bird was in crunch time. 

Lebron is better penetrator and therefore breaking down a defense, which is an enormous skill in basketball.  He's overall a better scorer (not shooter) and overall he's better (or maybe more blessed) at taking care of his body, which is a huge some would call skill.  So, Lebron is a better defender, penetrator, scorer and probably as good a passer.  There's a fun debate here, but anyone saying Bird > Lebron by some outlandish delta simply wasn't watching or wasn't remembering....

 

[TexArcher 37,770]

On 4/14/2022 at 3:54 PM, ztejas said:

Peak Kawhi was just as good as Kobe ever was.

Oh, come on.  Both exceptional defenders.  Slight rebounding edge to Kawhi, but a bigger edge in assists to Kobe.  The big difference is that Kawhi's best scoring season was 27.1 PPG and Kobe beat that 8 times, including his back-to-back scoring championships.  For their careers, Kobe accounted for 6 more points, 2 more assists, and 1 fewer rebound per game, and the gaps would be bigger if Kobe hadn't played so much longer.

Peak Kawhi was a hell of a player, don't get me wrong.  But he was not "just as good as Kobe ever was."  

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,547]

10 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

That's a pretty bold statement.  Numbers don't agree with you.

 

Lebron is better penetrator and therefore breaking down a defense, which is an enormous skill in basketball.  He's overall a better scorer (not shooter) and overall he's better (or maybe more blessed) at taking care of his body, which is a huge some would call skill.  So, Lebron is a better defender, penetrator, scorer and probably as good a passer.  There's a fun debate here, but anyone saying Bird > Lebron by some outlandish delta simply wasn't watching or wasn't remembering....

 

Taking care of your body in 2022 as a professional athlete isn't even in the same universe of taking care of your body in 1980. I'm not giving LeBron credit for advances in nutrition, medicine and exercise over the last 30 years, even though he'd likely try to take credit for them. 

Also I don't, hands down, give LeBron the defensive advantage. Go find me video of Bird not giving a fuck or not getting back on defense and then we'll talk. I'm sorry but that shit matters. Maybe I'm letting LeBron essentially saying fuck it and quitting on defense color my opinion. Or maybe that's him "taking care of his body?" Bird (at least early in his career) was an all nba defender, a menace in the passing lanes, a better post defender in an era when you actually had to play post defense, a better team defender, and a better rebounder (if you count that as a defensive statistic).

[shadow_operative 15,932]

Bird was like a basketball shooting sociopath when the game was on the line. the definition of "no conscience". Bird was out there like, "hey watch this" with the game on the line. with my life on the line and my choice of all time players to take the final shot, i probably go Bird, MJ, and KD, in that order. 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

42 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

That's a pretty bold statement.  Numbers don't agree with you.

 

Lebron is better penetrator and therefore breaking down a defense, which is an enormous skill in basketball.  He's overall a better scorer (not shooter) and overall he's better (or maybe more blessed) at taking care of his body, which is a huge some would call skill.  So, Lebron is a better defender, penetrator, scorer and probably as good a passer.  There's a fun debate here, but anyone saying Bird > Lebron by some outlandish delta simply wasn't watching or wasn't remembering....

 

i didn't say that the gap was enormous, in fact i started off by saying that i don't mind if anyone wants to start LBJ over Bird. still, when it comes to perimeter players, i've got MJ, Magic, and Bird ahead of LeBron, and no argument on earth can sway me off of that feeling, and it's because of LeBron's inferior shooting, particularly vs Bird and MJ, and particularly in crunch time. so again, it's not that Bird was better by a mile, it's just that i can't ever say that a guy who's so inferior shooting-wise is better than any of those three. 

[Patrick Bateman 3,911]

7 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Taking care of your body in 2022 as a professional athlete isn't even in the same universe of taking care of your body in 1980. I'm not giving LeBron credit for advances in nutrition, medicine and exercise over the last 30 years, even though he'd likely try to take credit for them. 

Also I don't, hands down, give LeBron the defensive advantage. Go find me video of Bird not giving a fuck or not getting back on defense and then we'll talk. I'm sorry but that shit matters. Maybe I'm letting LeBron essentially saying fuck it and quitting on defense color my opinion. Or maybe that's him "taking care of his body?" Bird (at least early in his career) was an all nba defender, a menace in the passing lanes, a better post defender in an era when you actually had to play post defense, a better team defender, and a better rebounder (if you count that as a defensive statistic).

Your first point is simply a subjective opinion.  Lebron is the single best NBA player at his age in history.  A lot is probably genetics, but he continues to train, cut weight when he needs to and upkeep his body at an elite level.  

Who says Bird wasn't a capable defensive player, he was.  Specifically as a rebounder and disruptor.  Bird was a 2nd team All-NBA defender 3 times.  Lebron was a 1st team All-NBA defender 5 times.  Lebron was an extremely good defender and when focused, an elite one.  Bird never was.  But he still was a good defender, especially early in his career.  He simply doesn't meet Lebron's apex defensive abilities.

 

 

[Patrick Bateman 3,911]

24 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

Oh, come on.  Both exceptional defenders.  Slight rebounding edge to Kawhi, but a bigger edge in assists to Kobe.  The big difference is that Kawhi's best scoring season was 27.1 PPG and Kobe beat that 8 times, including his back-to-back scoring championships.  For their careers, Kobe accounted for 6 more points, 2 more assists, and 1 fewer rebound per game, and the gaps would be bigger if Kobe hadn't played so much longer.

Peak Kawhi was a hell of a player, don't get me wrong.  But he was not "just as good as Kobe ever was."  

Now do shots...... How many shots did each take?  FG%?  TS%?  Just because you shoot more doesn't make a player better than another always.  Turnovers?  Steals?  Rebounds?  Scoring is a very important skill, but it's not always telling the right story.

 

 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,547]

7 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Your first point is simply a subjective opinion.  Lebron is the single best NBA player at his age in history.  A lot is probably genetics, but he continues to train, cut weight when he needs to and upkeep his body at an elite level.  

Who says Bird wasn't a capable defensive player, he was.  Specifically as a rebounder and disruptor.  Bird was a 2nd team All-NBA defender 3 times.  Lebron was a 1st team All-NBA defender 5 times.  Lebron was an extremely good defender and when focused, an elite one.  Bird never was.  But he still was a good defender, especially early in his career.  He simply doesn't meet Lebron's apex defensive abilities.

 

 

Are you seriously saying that the resources available to a professional athlete for training and nutrition in 2022 are the same as in the eighties? Guys used to smoke cigarettes in the locker room back then. Now, if the spurs want to have a pizza party for their players, each one calls their agent and nutritionist to see if they are allowed to eat any of it. 

[Patrick Bateman 3,911]

26 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Are you seriously saying that the resources available to a professional athlete for training and nutrition in 2022 are the same as in the eighties? Guys used to smoke cigarettes in the locker room back then. Now, if the spurs want to have a pizza party for their players, each one calls their agent and nutritionist to see if they are allowed to eat any of it. 

No, what I'm saying is even in comparison to players of their eras, Bird's career was about average.  Major injury at 32, which led to a large regression and basically done by 34.  Today, there's different studies, but the predominant thought process seems to be mid to late 30's (35-37).  Lebron is 37 and arguably just had the greatest season of any 37 year old in history.  He shows very little regression in his game or athleticism other needing more recovery time and having more nagging injuries.  He's already going to play past averages and will most likely play at a high level better than anyone before him (minus catastrophic injury).  It's simply a comparison of career length against their peers and  historical context where needed.  

[TexArcher 37,770]

1 hour ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Now do shots...... How many shots did each take?  FG%?  TS%?  Just because you shoot more doesn't make a player better than another always.  Turnovers?  Steals?  Rebounds?  Scoring is a very important skill, but it's not always telling the right story.

 

 

Sure, Kawhi shot a higher percentage.  He also played a different position.  We really shouldn't even be comparing these two players, but when someone says that Kawhi was as good as Kobe ever was, it needs to be countered.  I can't imagine ever seeing such an assertion anywhere outside of a message board populated by Texans.  It's pretty close to ludicrous.

Here's another way to look at it: Kawhi has been 1st Team All-NBA three times.  So, for most of his career, he hasn't even been considered the best player at his position right now.  And he's being compared to a top 10 player of all time (who was also 1st Team All-NBA 11 times).

Come on, now.

Edited April 16, 2022 by TexArcher

[Patrick Bateman 3,911]

19 hours ago, TexArcher said:

Sure, Kawhi shot a higher percentage.  He also played a different position.  We really shouldn't even be comparing these two players, but when someone says that Kawhi was as good as Kobe ever was, it needs to be countered.  I can't imagine ever seeing such an assertion anywhere outside of a message board populated by Texans.  It's pretty close to ludicrous.

Here's another way to look at it: Kawhi has been 1st Team All-NBA three times.  So, for most of his career, he hasn't even been considered the best player at his position right now.  And he's being compared to a top 10 player of all time (who was also 1st Team All-NBA 11 times).

Come on, now.

Again, are you sure..... Here is basically their respective peaks.  5 continuous seasons where they were at the apex of their skills (6 for Kawhi technically as he missed a full season).

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1=leonaka01&p1yrfrom=2016&p1yrto=2021&player_id2=bryanko01&p2yrfrom=2003&p2yrto=2007

Yes, Kobe scores more as he plays more.  40 minutes a game.  Pop started babying his players once TD got old and this continues with Kawhi, who averages about 33 mpg, but look at the per minute run and this continues as Kawhi started having knee issues.

Look at the per 36 minutes.  Kawhi actually averages more points (barely).  He averages more rebounds, more steals, more blocks, less turnovers, shoots 50 points better and on top of it, is probably the best perimeter defender in the league.  

Look at the rates, Kawhi beat Kobe in all but AST%.  Look at the advanced metrics.  

PER -- Kawhi:  26.5; Kobe 25.6

TS% -- Kawhi:  .607; Kobe .561

WS/48 -- Kawhi:  .247; Kobe .199

BPM -- Kawhi:  8/4; Kobe 6.3

VORP -- Kawhi:  28.2; Kobe 31.2 -- in 50 more games!

Now, here's the fun part.  Go look at the playoff stats.  Mamba?  Every fucking important stats goes down for Kobe.  The tall tales of Kobe's "clutchness" are exactly that.... tall tales.  Kawhi?  All the important stats for the most part, go way up.  In other words, in the playoffs when shit gets real?  The gap between Kawhi and Kobe gets larger!  And it's not going Mamba's way.  

Look at the playoff PERs?  7.5 point delta for Kawhi.  WS/48?  Kawhi doubles Kobe!  BPM?  10.9 to 4.5 for Kawhi.  

So, if this is players at their apex, then it may depend on what you're "drafting" for?  A season?  A playoff series?  A playoff run?  One game?  The only place a logical person may draft Kobe is in a season because of Kawhi's brittleness.  But in the playoffs?  The real "assassin" is Kawhi.  And as a Spurs fan, I fucking hate typing that, but it's the truth.  A playoff run or series?  Give me Kawhi at his peak every fucking time.  And anyone who watched or can do fucking math should feel the same way.

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Patrick Bateman

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,547]

5 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Again, are you sure..... Here is basically their respective peaks.  5 continuous seasons where they were at the apex of their skills (6 for Kawhi technically as he missed a full season).

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1=leonaka01&p1yrfrom=2016&p1yrto=2021&player_id2=bryanko01&p2yrfrom=2003&p2yrto=2007

Yes, Kobe scores more as he plays more.  40 minutes a game.  Pop started babying his players once TD got old and this continues with Kawhi, who averages about 33 mpg, but look at the per minute run and this continues as Kawhi started having knee issues.

Look at the per 36 minutes.  Kawhi actually averages more points (barely).  He averages more rebounds, more steals, more blocks, less turnovers, shoots 50 points better and on top of it, is probably the best perimeter defender in the league.  

Look at the rates, Kawhi beat Kobe in all but AST%.  Look at the advanced metrics.  

PER -- Kawhi:  26.5; Kobe 25.6

TS% -- Kawhi:  .607; Kobe .561

WS/48 -- Kawhi:  .247; Kobe .199

BPM -- Kawhi:  8/4; Kobe 6.3

VORP -- Kawhi:  28.2; Kobe 31.2 -- in 50 more games!

Now, here's the fun part.  Go look at the playoff stats.  Mamba?  Every fucking important stats goes down for Kobe.  The tall tales of Kobe's "clutchness" are exactly that.... tall tales.  Kawhi?  All the important stats for the most part, go way up.  In other words, in the playoffs when shit gets real?  The gap between Kawhi and Kobe gets larger!  And it's not going Mamba's way.  

Look at the playoff PERs?  7.5 point delta for Kawhi.  WS/48?  Kawhi doubles Kobe!  BPM?  10.9 to 4.5 for Kawhi.  

So, if this is players at their apex, then it may depend on what you're "drafting" for?  A season?  A playoff series?  A playoff run?  One game?  The only place a logical person may draft Kobe is in a season because of Kawhi's brittleness.  But in the playoffs?  The real "assassin" is Kawhi.  And as a Spurs fan, I fucking hate typing that, but it's the truth.  A playoff run or series?  Give me Kawhi at his peak every fucking time.  And anyone who watched or can do fucking math should feel the same way.

 

Everything you wrote is 100% correct. But fuck if Kobe Bryant ever once sat out a game that he could've played in. What's the most important ability? Availability. Fuck that gold brick injury faking piece of crap Kawhi Leonard. I guarantee you that if Kobe Bryant had the exact same injury that Kawhi had right know that he would be playing and inefficiently trying to ballhog his way to a ring. 

[conVINCEd 21,469]

7 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Everything you wrote is 100% correct. But fuck if Kobe Bryant ever once sat out a game that he could've played in. What's the most important ability? Availability. Fuck that gold brick injury faking piece of crap Kawhi Leonard. I guarantee you that if Kobe Bryant had the exact same injury that Kawhi had right know that he would be playing and inefficiently trying to ballhog his way to a ring. 

I hate the Spurs.  That being said, I would financially support an effort to collect the best fuck Kawhi rants from Spurs fans and publish a coffee table book.

[HookEm 2,463]

All of the above is true.  At his APEX, Kawhi was every bit as good of a player as Kobe Bryant... when Kawhi was actually playing.  The difference is that Kobe's apex lasted for about 12-13 years.  He played another 8-9 years beyond where Kawhi is right now at a pretty elite level.  He was also MUCH more durable during his peak.  From age 23-29, Kobe averaged 75+ games per regular season.  Kawhi averaged only 55 games per season.  

If I was picking teams for a single 7-game series and could have peak Kawhi or peak Kobe... and both were properly motivated, I probably take Kawhi.  He was a significantly better on-ball and team defender (even though Kobe was also great).  But the big thing is that Kobe has a tendency to go into "hero mode" and try to do everything himself.  you can see that in his worse FG% and 3PT%. He also turned the ball over more (+1 TO/game in his prime).

Kawhi might be the most underrated player in the last 20 years. Probably because of his bitch-assedness.  Kobe had about 100x more charisma.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,547]

To be fair, a potted plant has about 100x charisma as Kawhi Leonard. 

[ztejas 43,414]

16 minutes ago, HookEm said:

All of the above is true.  At his APEX, Kawhi was every bit as good of a player as Kobe Bryant... when Kawhi was actually playing.  The difference is that Kobe's apex lasted for about 12-13 years.  He played another 8-9 years beyond where Kawhi is right now at a pretty elite level.  He was also MUCH more durable during his peak.  From age 23-29, Kobe averaged 75+ games per regular season.  Kawhi averaged only 55 games per season.  

If I was picking teams for a single 7-game series and could have peak Kawhi or peak Kobe... and both were properly motivated, I probably take Kawhi.  He was a significantly better on-ball and team defender (even though Kobe was also great).  But the big thing is that Kobe has a tendency to go into "hero mode" and try to do everything himself.  you can see that in his worse FG% and 3PT%. He also turned the ball over more (+1 TO/game in his prime).

Kawhi might be the most underrated player in the last 20 years. Probably because of his bitch-assedness.  Kobe had about 100x more charisma.

Good summation. I could nitpick PB's post comparing stats a bit as there are some era adjustments you could make and Kawhi played on better teams (and the window is a little suspect - you're cutting off 6 Kobe Finals runs). Depending on the roster there are probably scenarios where I'd rather have peak Kobe than Kawhi - but if you have a really solid group of guys and just need to add an elite wing I'm probably taking Kawhi. For any all-time fantasy team Kawhi is a better fit. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by ztejas

[Patrick Bateman 3,911]

1 hour ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Everything you wrote is 100% correct. But fuck if Kobe Bryant ever once sat out a game that he could've played in. What's the most important ability? Availability. Fuck that gold brick injury faking piece of crap Kawhi Leonard. I guarantee you that if Kobe Bryant had the exact same injury that Kawhi had right know that he would be playing and inefficiently trying to ballhog his way to a ring. 

I think this is the best case for Kobe is ability to play through a bunch of nagging injuries and situation including a trial for raping a girl.  Kawhi is brittle, no doubt.  He'll have to live with that rep his entire career and life.  It's part of his legacy, but when on the court.... at the heights of their skills, Kawhi was better and frankly, it's close, but not that close.

Kobe also quit on his team twice in the playoffs. 

1 hour ago, HookEm said:

All of the above is true.  At his APEX, Kawhi was every bit as good of a player as Kobe Bryant... when Kawhi was actually playing.  The difference is that Kobe's apex lasted for about 12-13 years.  He played another 8-9 years beyond where Kawhi is right now at a pretty elite level.  He was also MUCH more durable during his peak.  From age 23-29, Kobe averaged 75+ games per regular season.  Kawhi averaged only 55 games per season.  

If I was picking teams for a single 7-game series and could have peak Kawhi or peak Kobe... and both were properly motivated, I probably take Kawhi.  He was a significantly better on-ball and team defender (even though Kobe was also great).  But the big thing is that Kobe has a tendency to go into "hero mode" and try to do everything himself.  you can see that in his worse FG% and 3PT%. He also turned the ball over more (+1 TO/game in his prime).

Kawhi might be the most underrated player in the last 20 years. Probably because of his bitch-assedness.  Kobe had about 100x more charisma.

Close.  Really his apex window was a decade, a lot longer than Kawhi's with a clunker thrown in the middle.  So, yea..... if you're considering drafting to start a team and those are your two choices or you need someone for the season and don't want to risk injury or can't have rest games from your star, then I agree Kobe is your guy.  Kobe definitely had more charisma as Kawhi has the personality of a used condom and Kobe got to play for the shiny and sexy organization of the league, the Lakers.  Would we think of him different if he was in Charlotte?  Probably.

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

Good summation. I could nitpick PB's post comparing stats a bit as there are some era adjustments you could make and Kawhi played on better teams (and the window is a little suspect - you're cutting off 6 Kobe Finals runs). Depending on the roster there are probably scenarios where I'd rather have peak Kobe than Kawhi - but if you have a really solid group of guys and just need to add an elite wing I'm probably taking Kawhi. For any all-time fantasy team Kawhi is a better fit. 

These were simply the best continuous 5 years of his career.  You could pick his Shaq years if you wanted or only the 3rd year if you wanted and statistically all what would happen is he'd look less comparable to Kawhi.  His playoff numbers would be a bit higher but not as good as his regular season numbers and nowhere in any stratosphere with Kawhi's.  Kobe's best argument lies in his amazing longevity, certain performances which are more specific.  He was a great player for a long time, but like almost every great player, needed very good supporting casts around him.  Although I think it was a down year in the league, Kawhi carrying Toronto to a championship is by far the more impressive achievement for each.  Kobe will go down as the greater player, for his longevity.  But again, we're talking about peaks.

 

[ztejas 43,414]

11 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

I think this is the best case for Kobe is ability to play through a bunch of nagging injuries and situation including a trial for raping a girl.  Kawhi is brittle, no doubt.  He'll have to live with that rep his entire career and life.  It's part of his legacy, but when on the court.... at the heights of their skills, Kawhi was better and frankly, it's close, but not that close.

Kobe also quit on his team twice in the playoffs. 

Close.  Really his apex window was a decade, a lot longer than Kawhi's with a clunker thrown in the middle.  So, yea..... if you're considering drafting to start a team and those are your two choices or you need someone for the season and don't want to risk injury or can't have rest games from your star, then I agree Kobe is your guy.  Kobe definitely had more charisma as Kawhi has the personality of a used condom and Kobe got to play for the shiny and sexy organization of the league, the Lakers.  Would we think of him different if he was in Charlotte?  Probably.

These were simply the best continuous 5 years of his career.  You could pick his Shaq years if you wanted or only the 3rd year if you wanted and statistically all what would happen is he'd look less comparable to Kawhi.  His playoff numbers would be a bit higher but not as good as his regular season numbers and nowhere in any stratosphere with Kawhi's.  Kobe's best argument lies in his amazing longevity, certain performances which are more specific.  He was a great player for a long time, but like almost every great player, needed very good supporting casts around him.  Although I think it was a down year in the league, Kawhi carrying Toronto to a championship is by far the more impressive achievement for each.  Kobe will go down as the greater player, for his longevity.  But again, we're talking about peaks.

 

You're cutting out Kobe's best 4 playoff runs which were 01 and 08-10. And Kobe winning back to back FMVPs is a much bigger achievement than Kawhi's Toronto ring imo. Unless you're just talking about one season - although I think Kobe's 09 run was very comparable. Their WS/48 and BPM are similar and I'd argue their supporting casts were similar granted Pau was obviously better than anyone on that Raptors team.

Again - I think I'm the one that made the initial Kawhi > Kobe claim but it's close and I'd listen to either argument. 

[Patrick Bateman 3,911]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

You're cutting out Kobe's best 4 playoff runs which were 01 and 08-10. And Kobe winning back to back FMVPs is a much bigger achievement than Kawhi's Toronto ring imo. Unless you're just talking about one season - although I think Kobe's 09 run was very comparable. Their WS/48 and BPM are similar and I'd argue their supporting casts were similar granted Pau was obviously better than anyone on that Raptors team.

Again - I think I'm the one that made the initial Kawhi > Kobe claim but it's close and I'd listen to either argument. 

01' wasn't statistically one of Kobe's best year's though.  It was kind of on that 2nd tier but Kobe had a lot of years about that good.  I'll give you it was his best playoff run, but what I'm telling you is, brotha.... you can pick any five years you want for the playoffs for Kobe and Kawhi is still going to outpace him.....by a lot.  01', 09'.  I don't care what you choose.  Hell, you could pick any 3 playoff campaigns you want for Kobe and sort of cheating because they wouldn't be successive campaigns and they wouldn't match Kawhi.  Kawhi is just that good in the playoffs.  And same with a reg season.  Longer time periods help Kobe in comparison because Kawhi is always hurt.