Hugh Thompson- Great American

[statsman 5,476]

April 15 was Hugh Thompson’s birthday. In light of recent focus on war atrocities, I thought this would be a good time to give some deserved attention to him. 
 
He was a warrant officer (kind of hybrid enlisted/officer; feel free to provide a better explanation) and a helicopter pilot in Vietnam. He was flying, with his crew, over My Lai with the massacre underway. He landed, and stopped it, basically by running and yelling, “What the hell are you doing? Stop!” (He lacked the rank to swing action just by his presence). 
 
I think he showed great moral clarity and courage. It’s one thing to recognize an atrocity thousands of miles away, and tut tut. It’s another to run in front of armed men actively engaged in it and tell them they are wrong and must stop. It’s so much easier to stay on the sidelines and maybe file a report after. (Thank God, on this Good Friday, that the soldiers listened and heeded). 
 
A couple hundred innocent villagers were slaughtered. Thompson was a major force in saving the rest. All the excuses used by the war criminals (alt. Calley was prosecuted but there was always speculation that the order to wipe out the village, as a message, came from higher)- that this was payback for collusion with VC, this was a message, that this was revenge-were shown to be lies by his actions in that he was as much of a combat vet as any. 
 
The army didn’t know what to do with Thompson, as it struggled to prosecute Calley while still fighting a war with an army somewhat sympathetic to him. WO Thompson didn’t get recognition for his bravery and honor until the ‘80s, and he died far too young (Calley is still alive). In my opinion, in large part he saved the “soul” of our army, by showing that war crimes can be stopped, renounced. RIP, Hugh Thompson. You were a different kind of war hero, but a hero nonetheless. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by statsman

[TwiceHorn 31,531]

For the record:  all Army helicopter pilots are Warrant Officers except academy graduates and the odd pre-existing officer that finds themselves in flight school.  Maybe the few other Army aviators, as well.  A lot do come from the enlisted ranks, though.

"Hybrid" is pretty accurate, I suppose.  In theory, "warrant" officers fulfill a specialized need or warrant, sometimes regarded as temporary, for some particular expertise.  I think historically, they did not go through officer training, or even "boot camp."  Almost like some kind of civilian specialist that gets a uniform and goes into the field.

You can kind of envision in in WWI, where "we need pilots in a gotdam hurry," so cropdusters and barnstormers were signed up as warrant officers.

That Army aviators remain Warrant Officers after the creation of the Air Force is kind of an historical anomaly.  And maybe kind of a political sop to those that think the Army shouldn't be operating aircraft.

Edited April 15, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[You don't know me 1,161]

9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

For the record:  all Army helicopter pilots are Warrant Officers except academy graduates.  Maybe the few other Army aviators, as well.

I'm not sure what you mean by "few other Army aviators", but there are many helicopter pilots in the Army that are neither Warrant Officers nor Academy grads.  Buddy of mine, his son is an A&M grad and is a company commander within a CAB and helicopter pilot.  Maybe that's what you meant by "few".

[statsman 5,476]

(maybe it’s me, but I think the “warrant officer” stuff is the least interesting part of the story)🤨

[TwiceHorn 31,531]

2 minutes ago, You don't know me said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "few other Army aviators", but there are many helicopter pilots in the Army that are neither Warrant Officers nor Academy grads.  Buddy of mine, his son is an A&M grad and is a company commander within a CAB and helicopter pilot.  Maybe that's what you meant by "few".

Edited to add pre-existing officers that make it to flight school, which is a somewhat unusual path, unless something has changed.  The Army used to draw extensively from the enlisted ranks for helicopter pilots, but much less so today.  And I think they encourage college graduates who sign up to go directly to flight school and emerge as warrant officers, rather than OCS, some other officer billet, and then flight school, where you would remain a "commissioned officer."

The Army has a handful of fixed-wing aviators, too, which is what I meant by few. 

[TwiceHorn 31,531]

4 minutes ago, statsman said:

(maybe it’s me, but I think the “warrant officer” stuff is the least interesting part of the story)🤨

Well you felt the need to explain "Warrant Officer" and it is a weird anomaly.  Warrant officers are still treated as officers, broadly speaking, but would have even less authority to step in to the My Lai situation than a regular commissioned officer outside the infantry chain of command.  Pretty bold move by WO Thompson.

[52-80 19,232]

Goddamn.  I never knew the details of this episode.  Started reading the wikipedia on it and now you've got me all pissed off and ruined my Friday.

[TwiceHorn 31,531]

2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Goddamn.  I never knew the details of this episode.  Started reading the wikipedia on it and now you've got me all pissed off and ruined my Friday.

Yeah, same.

A couple of times, Thompson placed his chopper and crew members between troops and civilians. 

Very bold indeed.

[Da Fino 2,783]

8 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Goddamn.  I never knew the details of this episode.  Started reading the wikipedia on it and now you've got me all pissed off and ruined my Friday.

I was reading that wiki while thinking, "why didn't I ever hear about this in school?"

[statsman 5,476]

Just now, Da Fino said:

I was reading that wiki while thinking, "why didn't I ever hear about this in school?"

It’s a tough story- “Today we’re going to learn about our army trying to massacre a village”. 
 
That’s the debt we owe to Thompson. The story can be taught to soldiers, “Yes, even our army commits crimes. But, any one of you can stop them, and we expect you to”. 

[Armybrat 40,881]

It was quite an embarrassing & shameful scandal at the time when the news got out.
Lieutenant Calley was just the fall guy, and his superior officer on the scene, a major,  who ordered the massacre was not prosecuted IIRC.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Armybrat

[Nivek 16,982]

And some politicians got involved and called them (helicopter crew) traitors.

[52-80 19,232]

One of the soldiers who admitted to killing 25 people while just following orders….returned to US with massive PSTD (of course).
 

His 10 year old daughter was accidentally killed in a randomly neighborhood shooting, which he attributed to karmic revenge.  And at 48 he took his own life. 
 

Just a complete shitshow all around

[statsman 5,476]

The truth (that the US army committed a war crime) is not always our friend. Doubtless, there were some who wish Thompson never interfered, so that My Lai could be covered up, and called a myth (fake news, although that term didn’t exist). 
 
But the truth shouldn’t be your enemy. The truth should be taught- “Sometimes horrible acts are committed by those of us we trust the most. We must guard against that. And, if anyone commits crimes and atrocities, they can and must be stopped”. 

[statsman 5,476]

My dad was a combat marksman in ‘69, and was stationed at Fort Benning during the Calley trial. He said he understood the urge to do it- you enter a village and ask about VC and they say there are none. Then, your best friend in the world gets blown up by a VC booby trap. You want to go wipe out all those lying villagers. 
 
But you can’t. The army had explained what war crimes were and how you were not to obey illegal orders. Dad felt My Lai was a failure of NCOs to overrule illegal orders (He was a SFC). 

[AUS-97HORN 11,815]

I knew about My Lai, which I sort of discovered on my own at around 16/18 because it wasnt talked about in school anywhere.  (which would have been about 20 years later)

 

I also knew that the commanding general of Calley's division (MG Sam Koster) became the superintendent of USMA in '69 and was on the approved LTG list, but was demoted to BG and forced to resign as Sup in '70 because he was charged with not having done enough to get to the bottom of the My Lai story. 

My dad graduated from USMA in '72 and to this day he is still pissed that their Sup was forced to resign.  He still feels that Calley and Medina were the failures.

the only way I knew about all the Koster stuff was my fathers VISCERAL reaction to reading The Long Grey Line and the ONLY mention of the Class of '72 in the book is talking about how the Class of '66 were the Firsties to the Class of '69 (who were in turn Firsties to the Class of '72), and how the classes of 69-72 rejected the speech Koster gave....    which according to my father was total bullshit. He said they did the exact opposite and supported the shit out of Koster.

 

which is interesting because I found this fantastic (and super long) NYT article from July 1970.  In which BOTH versions (Long Grey Line, and my Fathers) are presented as both happening

Quote

[Dad's version]

But by far the greatest shock came this March 17, when Maj. Gen. Samuel W. Koster announced that he was resigning as Superintendent of West Point because the Army had brought charges of failure to obey regulations and dereliction of duty against him in connection with the alleged 1968 massacre in the Vietnamese village of Songmy[My Lai]. Koster delivered his emotional speech from the high stone “poop deck” in the immense mess hall where the 4,000man corps of cadets was having lunch. The cadets were so stirred that they leaped onto their chairs, cheering and clapping, and then, without waiting to be dismissed, rushed out of the mess hall to hold further demonstrations in support of their indicted commander.

Quote

[Long Grey Line version (with a twist back to Dad's version in the last line]

Among cadets, General Koster's emotional resignation as superintendent has little to do with their support‐the‐war attitude. In fact, the first impulsive outburst of sympathy for the general has been replaced by a sullen feeling that the corps was used to provide a theatrical setting for his resignation. At lunch in the mess hall, directly under the poop deck where Koster made his farewell speech, asked one cadet if the corps was upset by Koster's departure. “That's a ridiculous question,” he said curtly. “We didn't know him. We didn't feel close to him. He was remote, impersonal figure that we saw maybe two or three times month at review an athletic contest?” Other cadets, especially those committed to military careers, are inclined to feel sorry for Koster; Songmy [My Lai] seems to them an irrational incident, and his fault, if any, seems to have consisted in failing to investigate it vigorously.

 

[You don't know me 1,161]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Edited to add pre-existing officers that make it to flight school, which is a somewhat unusual path, unless something has changed.  The Army used to draw extensively from the enlisted ranks for helicopter pilots, but much less so today.  And I think they encourage college graduates who sign up to go directly to flight school and emerge as warrant officers, rather than OCS, some other officer billet, and then flight school, where you would remain a "commissioned officer."

The Army has a handful of fixed-wing aviators, too, which is what I meant by few. 

Ah, the old Sherpa pilots.  I think they do have some warrants that fly Sherpas, at least the last time I was around the Army, which was about 10 years ago. 

My buddy's son, after graduating college, he went to OCS and then flight school at Fort Rucker.  Not sure what they call units at the platoon level in Army Aviation, but he was either a "platoon" commander or company XO and also a pilot.  I think he was flying a Kiowa at the time.  I think those are out of service now, but he's flying something.

[statsman 5,476]

Warrant Officer talk not going away…🤣

[You don't know me 1,161]

Yeah, sorry about that. 

Back on topic...  My Lai, in my opinion, was a failure at many levels.  When I went through Marine boot camp, we were taught that you not only have an obligation/duty to obey lawful orders, but also to NOT obey unlawful orders.  That training may have been a result of lessons learned from My Lai, but I'm fairly certain that unlawful vs lawful orders have been a known thing since well before Vietnam.

Edited to add:  The courage that it took for Hugh Thompson to do what he did is incredible.

Edited April 15, 2022 by You don't know me

[TwiceHorn 31,531]

The tension between "obeying orders" and maintaining the chain of command and disobeying unlawful orders I suppose has existed forever and will continue to do so.

I think regular commissioned officers have always received some degree of training in this, and the role of the military in civilized society, more as they ascend the ladder.

Back to the warrant officer thing, they don't receive the full gamut of training that an officer does, so it is even more extraordinary for a man like Thompson to stick his neck out like that.

And that brings up the reliance of a well-trained and disciplined military on NCO-types, but also on junior officers.  The enlisted types that do the fighting are susceptible to the "thin red line" or fog of war, and the NCOs have to rein them in, and, failing that, the junior officers.

[Scheiss Meister 8,411]

In 1979 the Marine Corps basic training that I was given stressed the difference between lawful and unlawful orders and our individual responsibility to know the difference and refuse unlawful orders.  To the best of my recollection we spent at least three training hours, spread out through boot camp, on the rules of war and our responsibilities under them.  One of our Drill Instructors (Semper Fidelis, Staff Sergeant Truscott) had a huge collection of ribbons on his uniform denoting his medals and awards from his service in Vietnam, and he was very firm on that training.  He didn't mention Thompson by name, but he used My Lai as an example of NCOs and lower enlisted personnel failing to do their duty by obeying unlawful orders.  As a combat infantry veteran, he understood the rage the men felt, but could not condone what they did.  It made a huge impression on me.

[statsman 5,476]

To add to the issue- we had drafted soldiers in Vietnam. They never wanted to be there, and they’re put in this shitty situation and expected to uphold the honor of the US army. Not an excuse, but a difficulty. (And pertinent to the shit going on in Ukraine). 

[bolverk 29,715]

Having been raised by a history teacher (not a coach but one with a masters in his subject matter) and having attended a Texas public school with general interest in history, I'd never heard of the My Lai massacre until I was in my early 30s. The small boutique (10-12 FTEs tops) consulting firm I worked for at the time developed a tradition for serving a Veterans Day apple pie for one of my bosses who had been infantry during that war. This was during, or shortly after Iraq 2.0, which that boss was still in favor of at the time.

At that point, I don't think I had any prior knowledge of the massacre, but if I remember correctly, someone asked him a question about his time served. Without much further provocation, he mentioned something to the effect that he was part of a platoon/battalion/group/unit that entered the village afterwards. Even though my former boss was still pro-invasion of Iraq, at that time, he teared up and told us that he had strong disrespect for Colin Powell for the cover-up.

It's been probably about 20 years since that happened (no one exactly publicly quizzed him on details because of decorum), and I haven't spoken to him in nearly 10 years, but I distinctly recall my feelings of anguish on first hearing about it from him. It kind of shocked me, because Powell was so venerated at the time.

It didn't exactly surprise me that something like My Lai had happened because I'd been a teenager in the 80s and was raised on Vietnam War movies, but to hear something from someone who had a first-hand account of atrocities made a definite impression.

Let's hope that it continues to be discussed and is never forgotten.

[TwiceHorn 31,531]

Geez.  I have been a military history buff all my life, coming more recently the the Vietnam War.  So I was going to know about it one way or another.

I can't be sure, but I am almost certain we touched on My Lai in high school.  I even vaguely remember talking about it at home, maybe seeing some latter-day news about Calley or something in the 70s or early 80s.

I took my statutory history and government at Richland to avoid having to deal with one of those with 12 hours of engineering on top.  I am also fairly certain we touched on it.  

I can almost understand history classes and courses not quite making it up to the 60s, at least when I was in school in the 80s, but that seems woefully deficient.  Some kind of false patriotism?

Edited April 15, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Brisketexan 105,278]

I knew of it because I was a Vietnam War buff (read a shitload of books on it), but I never really sought out anything that covered My Lai in detail.  I do remember realizing that it was not surprising and even understandable: you put a bunch of draftees in a situation where the enemy is all around and nobody can be trusted, and they're damned well ready to snap.

The line between civilized and uncivilized is tissue-paper thin -- we would all be well-served to remember that, even when it's sometimes hard to do so.

And the choice to actively stand AGAINST that unlawful action?  It's a suicide itself.  Even if your choice is dead-on, 100% correct beyond a shadow of a doubt.....in most cases it will still be a career killer.  You will always be seen by some within the military as untrustworthy, you won't have their back when it matters, etc.  It's akin to charging an enemy position knowing that you are going to die.  You are doing your duty, but you know that you will forever lose something, with no chance of getting it back -- your life, your career -- as a result.  That means it's one hell of a heroic act of self-sacrifice.

[BabaYaga 15,307]

1 hour ago, Scheiss Meister said:

As a combat infantry veteran, he understood the rage the men felt, but could not condone what they did.  It made a huge impression on me.

Good stuff.  I have read a lot about soldiers in Afghanistan, many with small children of their own, and dealing with the tradition of Bacha Bazi, or "boy toys".  Parents selling their 8-9yr old sons into essentially barbaric sexual slavery.  How they stand down while this was going on all around them.  I couldn't not imagine...:(

[bolverk 29,715]

15 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Geez.  I have been a military history buff all my life, coming more recently the the Vietnam War.  So I was going to know about it one way or another.

I can't be sure, but I am almost certain we touched on My Lai in high school.  I even vaguely remember talking about it at home, maybe seeing some latter-day news about Calley or something in the 70s or early 80s.

I took my statutory history and government at Richland to avoid having to deal with one of those with 12 hours of engineering on top.  I am also fairly certain we touched on it.  

I can almost understand history classes and courses not quite making it up to the 60s, at least when I was in school in the 80s, but that seems woefully deficient.  Some kind of false puffed up patriotism nationalism?

Probably so. My HS (and dad) ended all history lessons at the end of WW2. America. Fuck yeah. The end.

I took plenty of classes in college tangential to more recent history and have personally sought out knowledge about stuff since then, but I do wonder how many people our age (50-ish) have actually heard of shit like My Lai or any other bad Cold War stuff.

[BabaYaga 15,307]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

To add to the issue- we had drafted soldiers in Vietnam. They never wanted to be there, and they’re put in this shitty situation and expected to uphold the honor of the US army. Not an excuse, but a difficulty. (And pertinent to the shit going on in Ukraine). 

I remember the interview with R. Lee Ermey after FMJ came out.  As an actual former DI during that period of time, he discussed how they'd shortened the training period down by a number of weeks to get those kids ready for combat.  He said that those were dark days.  You sympathized with the kids, knowing what they were heading off to face, but you had to try and get them ready - so it became about absolute control, fear, and intensity to try and get them up to the task and that many did crack in the pipeline.  

[Sandman 3,412]

3 hours ago, Scheiss Meister said:

In 1979 the Marine Corps basic training that I was given stressed the difference between lawful and unlawful orders and our individual responsibility to know the difference and refuse unlawful orders.

In 1993, the Marine Corps basic training that I was given stressed that "Jody got my girl". Also, we got bent a lot.

[atomheartbevo 89,779]

On 4/15/2022 at 10:35 AM, You don't know me said:

Yeah, sorry about that. 

Back on topic...  My Lai, in my opinion, was a failure at many levels.  When I went through Marine boot camp, we were taught that you not only have an obligation/duty to obey lawful orders, but also to NOT obey unlawful orders.  That training may have been a result of lessons learned from My Lai, but I'm fairly certain that unlawful vs lawful orders have been a known thing since well before Vietnam.

Edited to add:  The courage that it took for Hugh Thompson to do what he did is incredible.

I know the Army was teaching the same thing in basic training in the early 90s about lawful/unlawful orders, with My Lai specifically mentioned.  A lot of guys didn’t know about it before then, but I did (thanks to solid high school teachers in the 80s).

None of my drill instructors were Vietnam vets (most were Gulf War) but we had some senior NCOs who were (I feel old, those Vietnam Vets were younger than I am now), and one of them came in and gave  a talk about My Lai. He didn’t witness My Lai, but he said he had encountered it a few times on a smaller scale.  He mentioned that putting aside moral obligations, if you wanted to look at it from a pragmatic viewpoint, every time an American soldier fucked up some Vietnamese civilian, he ensured that the surrounding villages were going to favor the VC and North Vietnamese over Americans.  Friends have said this  held true in Afghanistan where dumbass stunts could turn villages against soldiers, and villagers wouldn’t mention things like the Taliban coming through or IEDs that were planted in various places, etc.  

[atomheartbevo 89,779]

On 4/15/2022 at 11:41 AM, statsman said:

To add to the issue- we had drafted soldiers in Vietnam. They never wanted to be there, and they’re put in this shitty situation and expected to uphold the honor of the US army. Not an excuse, but a difficulty. (And pertinent to the shit going on in Ukraine). 

Not that many though.  Only about 25% in Vietnam were draftees.  Still a lot though.  And because they had an idea of how long their tours might be, some could get jumpy and angry as fuck the closer they got to going home.  

[atomheartbevo 89,779]

On 4/15/2022 at 12:23 PM, TwiceHorn said:

I can almost understand history classes and courses not quite making it up to the 60s, at least when I was in school in the 80s, but that seems woefully deficient.  Some kind of false patriotism?

Depends on the schools.  In my high school in the 80s (Fort Bend County, a very conservative place), I had three Vietnam combat vets who talked about Vietnam during their classes - a history teacher who had been in  Special Forces, a  geography teacher who had been in the 101st Airborne, and a JROTC instructor who had been a pilot in Vietnam. The history and JROTC teachers both mentioned My Lai as a part of their classes - history teacher in a historical context and how it damaged Nikon’s efforts (even though it happened under LBJ) and the JROTC teacher in some military ethics stuff delving into lawful and unlawful orders and the UCMJ.  

Edited April 17, 2022 by atomheartbevo

[atomheartbevo 89,779]

12 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I know the Army was teaching the same thing in basic training in the early 90s about lawful/unlawful orders, with My Lai specifically mentioned.  A lot of guys didn’t know about it before then, but I did (thanks to solid high school teachers in the 80s).

I should note that the same drill instructors that lectured us on lawful and unlawful orders were also teaching us that these were alarm clocks.