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NBA Playoffs 2022

Vic Mackey

By Vic Mackey
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Mitch Cumsteen
Mitch Cumsteen

I bet Chris Paul's mom could use a hug right about now. 

Braff Zacklin
Braff Zacklin

I don't get why the Warriors were average without Curry and Draymond. Wish someone would take a moment to explain it to me.

Dutchrudder
Dutchrudder

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21477

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27 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

You act like he was drafted by some juggernaut. Golden State was just a cute also-ran led by a scrawny dude with brittle ankles. It's not a coincidence that their rise coincided with Draymond being inserted into the starting lineup. He allows them to play how they want offensively, without sacrificing defense. I love me some Klay, but, in non-KD years, Dray has consistently been their 2nd best player. The chemistry and two man game between he and Steph isn't replaceable.

He’s the right guy, in the right place, at the right time.  Lots of those guys scattered throughout sports history.  If Draymond was a free agent this offseason, and he chose to leave for more money, the team who signed him would most likely be disappointed in their return on investment, because they would most likely try to plug him into a conventional role surrounded by inferior shooters.  On a different team and a different developmental timeline, he’s Dorian Finney-Smith, a nice ultra-switchable defensive player who can guard anyone but stands in the corner on offense.   But GS saw something nobody else did, had the right pieces in place to make it work, and committed to it.

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MNLonghornFUKM

MNLonghornFUKM 8977

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I like the way Wiggins plays , doesn’t bitch about calls , doesn’t celebrate after every 3 or act like a cocky douche , just plays the game

He’s a great 4th option.Not one worth $35,000,000 a year for 20-6-2 that takes bad shots. But with splash bros taking a lot of the distractions he’s able to flourish quite well with open looks.


He’s not a distraction and won’t cause any chaos. Just expensive
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aggie08

aggie08 21793

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1 hour ago, conVINCEd said:

He’s the right guy, in the right place, at the right time.  Lots of those guys scattered throughout sports history.  If Draymond was a free agent this offseason, and he chose to leave for more money, the team who signed him would most likely be disappointed in their return on investment, because they would most likely try to plug him into a conventional role surrounded by inferior shooters.  On a different team and a different developmental timeline, he’s Dorian Finney-Smith, a nice ultra-switchable defensive player who can guard anyone but stands in the corner on offense.   But GS saw something nobody else did, had the right pieces in place to make it work, and committed to it.

Oh, no doubt. None of it works without Steph. A lineup of Steph/Payton/Porter/Dray/Looney can still generate points, and that's 100% because of Steph. It's absurd the combinations of offensively limited lineups that Steph allows to be on the floor together. Dray needs Steph. But Steph also needs Dray probably more than we realize (because they've been tied at the hip for 8 years). An above average defender and passer filling in for Draymond wouldn't be nearly as effective and impactful.

This series makes it abundantly clear why Golden State is so high on Wiseman and Kuminga. Against top tier defenses, they have absolutely no one who is a threat rolling to the basket on Steph pick and rolls. Boston's advantage in athleticism jumps off the screen. They happily give Dray the entire lane and pray that he'll try to force up a half-hearted floater.

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SilasCoade

SilasCoade 2622

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Draymond is strictly above average. This narrative of his genius basketball IQ and defensive wizardry is ridiculous. He is athletically limited relative to NBA players and always has been. He is worse than offensively challenged as a scorer and his value as a facilitator relies entirely on a motion style offense that does not require him to put the ball on the floor. His handle is looser than Adriana Chechick's asshole after a gangbang. The motion offense works because they can typically put 3 guys on the floor capable of hitting the 3 at 35-40%, forcing defense to be more spread out, opening passing lanes. Be real and recognize that Dray is not 6'6" Jokic as a passer.

He gets away with a dozen egregious fouls per game, which is considered stellar defense but is really just borderline dirty bullshit. He's opportunistic and puts himself in good position, but he's not locking down Kyrie or Luka or Jokic. If he got officiated correctly he'd foul out every game.

Edited by Llogg
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Reynolds Woodcock

Reynolds Woodcock 5087

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3 hours ago, Llogg said:

Draymond is strictly above average. This narrative of his genius basketball IQ and defensive wizardry is ridiculous. He is athletically limited relative to NBA players and always has been. He is worse than offensively challenged as a scorer and his value as a facilitator relies entirely on a motion style offense that does not require him to put the ball on the floor. His handle is looser than Adriana Chechick's asshole after a gangbang. The motion offense works because they can typically put 3 guys on the floor capable of hitting the 3 at 35-40%, forcing defense to be more spread out, opening passing lanes. Be real and recognize that Dray is not 6'6" Jokic as a passer.

He gets away with a dozen egregious fouls per game, which is considered stellar defense but is really just borderline dirty bullshit. He's opportunistic and puts himself in good position, but he's not locking down Kyrie or Luka or Jokic. If he got officiated correctly he'd foul out every game.

 

2 hours ago, Llogg said:

Just trying to balance out the incredible knob slobbing. The truth is in the middle but damn the praise heaped on a guy that couldn't start for half the teams in the league is crazy.

Lol, you really need to give up, Skip. 

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aggie08

aggie08 21793

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Something that got lost in the glare of Steph's brilliance: Robert Williams took himself out of the game with 3 minutes left after reaggravating his knee. closely followed by Wiggins and Dray getting huge offensive rebounds. He had looked as healthy as he has all postseason in Games 3 and 4, and was absolutely punking Golden State on the boards and swatting away layups. The Warriors don't have any answer for his athleticism. Hope the prognosis is promising for the best (only?) Aggie in the league.

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SilasCoade

SilasCoade 2622

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27 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Something that got lost in the glare of Steph's brilliance: Robert Williams took himself out of the game with 3 minutes left after reaggravating his knee. closely followed by Wiggins and Dray getting huge offensive rebounds. He had looked as healthy as he has all postseason in Games 3 and 4, and was absolutely punking Golden State on the boards and swatting away layups. The Warriors don't have any answer for his athleticism. Hope the prognosis is promising for the best (only?) Aggie in the league.

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Baboontyme

Baboontyme 2883

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Man I haven't read this thread for a few days. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Draymond brings it all on himself. All of it. And he'll take it, too. Bad or good and right now it's bad. He has put himself the hell out there and this microscope is either a distraction or it's a blessing. I have my own criticisms and I don't really share them because who the fuck am I and who really gives a shit. But this man is a treasure because he will do the opposite of what we think he should do, he'll tell you about it, he'll give credit where it's due, and he won't apologize. I also don't think he's nearly as washed up as the hot take du juor crowd does but see previous statements about what my opinions mean. Knibb High Football rules. 

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15932

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12 hours ago, Llogg said:

Just trying to balance out the incredible knob slobbing. The truth is in the middle but damn the praise heaped on a guy that couldn't start for half the teams in the league is crazy.

i think he's a unique player who is extremely difficult to handicap as far as nailing down exactly how good/impactful he is. trigger warning: i'm about to make a soccer analogy.

Mesut Ozil when he played for Germany, Real Madrid, and early in his Arsenal career: footballing genius, god tier IQ, makes everyone around him better

Mesut Ozil ever since: overrated, makes zero effort defensively, doesn't score

my take: Ozil is a one-of-a-kind player who essentially plays to the level of his teammates. he has a truly great mind for the game, but at the end of the day he's a role player. surround him with elite talent and he's an elite role player. surround him with mediocre players who don't read the game the same way that he does, and his deficiencies start to become glaring. this is how i see Dray.

people want to put Draymond in a box, but i just don't think you can. he's 1 of 1 in today's game, and you really can't pin him down and say definitively that he's this or he's that. in short, Draymond Green is an enigma inside of a riddle, wrapped in a mystery. or something like that. 

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Mitch Cumsteen

Mitch Cumsteen 18962

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Draymond is definitely a force multiplier when he's playing with good teammates. They make him better and vice versa. This is a tough series for him to break out and impact offensively because Boston switches everything. Usually he's in the middle of everything they do but not this series. So that's why Curry is getting so much one on one action and why Draymond isn't getting into the seams and creating more.

At the end of game 4 they finally trapped Steph off a Draymond screen and he broke free, got the ball and set up Looney (I think it was Looney) for the layup. There just haven't been many opportunities for him like that. All those actions they run where Draymond handoff / screens for Curry are getting borked because of the switching defense. At some point if the Celtics change up coverage you will see Draymond have a bigger impact on the game. Otherwise they seem content to let Curry shoot them to death. 

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SilasCoade

SilasCoade 2622

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I completely agree with the last several posts about Draymond. He doesn't suck and I didn't say he does. I maintain that he is an above average player whose positives are magnified by the context in which he plays (2 all time great shooters, motion offense, refs swallowing whistles). He's good, just not this savant he's imagined to be. Put him on the Clippers and the Clippers still Clipper. I honestly can't think of a playoff team that you could insert Draymond into and turn them into legit champion contenders.

Heat? He's a worse shooting PJ Tucker or a much less athletic Bam on defense. In other words, he's a bit redundant for their current roster and not an upgrade.

Phoenix? Maybe you can play more small ball with him but they have an elite distributor on offense and a truly elite wing defender already. Just don't see how he pushes them over the line.

Mavs? Maybe. He could definitely fill a need as a switchable big on defense but Luka and Brunson are not guys built to play off the ball the way Klay and Steph are, so having him trigger the half court offense is a non-starter.

Bucks? They wouldn't be worse, but they're only not in the finals because of an injury to their second best player.

Sixers? They go as far as Embiid's body takes them regardless of supporting cast. Draymond maybe makes them better defensively but he would be a terrible offensive fit.

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aggie08

aggie08 21793

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Draymond would still be one of the best defenders of this generation wherever he went. I realize that fans--and media--generally suck at analyzing defense, but it's pretty obvious and conclusive if you're assessing his career objectively. The advanced metrics are all there. So are the visual "feel" and IQ stuff--disrupting plays before they ever get started--that don't show up on the stat sheet. Before he got hurt this season, they were the #1 defense by a wide margin with a starting backcourt of Steph and Poole. It's an absolute joke that he only has one DPOY, and Gobert has 3.

Could another team absorb his complete inability to score and put up with his antics enough to allow him to display that defensive prowess for 32+ minutes a night? Admittedly, probably not. Of course he was lucky to be drafted where he was. But he contributed significantly to making it "the perfect spot."

All that said, even if Golden State wins this series, I imagine that this will be the first off-season that their front office will seriously entertain conversations about getting out from his contract. They've got potentially big paydays coming up in 13 months for Poole and/or Wiggins. Dray is clearly on the decline physically, doesn't have half of a step to give back to the rest of the league, and whatever semblance of touch around the rim that he used to have is a pipedream to ever return.

But let's not act like the past two games define him.

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SilasCoade

SilasCoade 2622

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My opinion of Draymond is not reactionary to recent games. I've consistently felt he was overrated since 2017. He puts himself in good position on defense, but he gets away with a ton of shit that should be fouls because of his rep. FWIW I would absolutely take Draymond over Gobert, but that seems like damning with faint praise.

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HookEm

HookEm 2509

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On 6/12/2022 at 12:17 PM, Llogg said:

My opinion of Draymond is not reactionary to recent games. I've consistently felt he was overrated since 2017. He puts himself in good position on defense, but he gets away with a ton of shit that should be fouls because of his rep. FWIW I would absolutely take Draymond over Gobert, but that seems like damning with faint praise.

As a defender, Gobert and Draymond are on a similar level. But somehow people forget that Draymond is averaging 7 assists per game - close to his career high. 

People will argue that Draymond's assists are a result of playing with Steph, Klay, etc.  Blah blah blah. Complete BS.  If that were the case, you would see a spike in assists when other players are in the Golden State system.  Andrew Wiggins is averaging almost exactly the same assists in GS as he did in Minnesota.  D'Angelo Russel averaged more assists in Brooklyn and Minnesota than he did in GS.  Durant is averaging more assists in Brooklyn than in GS.  Odds are that if Draymond went somewhere else, he would still average 7-8 assists per game. 

Draymond has a tremendous talent for getting people involved on the offensive end.  He manages the whole flow of the offense from his point forward position.  He has an infectious way of eliminating hero ball.  The ball hits him in the high post and it is out of his hands in a millisecond finding cutters or open players on the perimeter.  And then on the defensive end, he is directing other players and challenging them when they F up.  It doesn't matter if the other player is Curry or Durant.  Draymond will challenge them. 

If you put him on say Portland a few years ago, they would have been soooo much better.  If I were a team like New Orleans, I would do whatever I could to sign Draymond.  Dude makes plays that result in wins.  Tonight, watch how many times Draymond sets a pick or makes a skip pass that results in a mismatch. He makes a huge impact outside the stat sheet.

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Loch Ness Monster

Loch Ness Monster 3533

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Posted (edited)

JJ Redick mentioned the Celtics drop coverage with their big man is helping limit Draymond. Teams that try to trap Steph to get it out of his hands allows the 4 on 3 with Draymond as the decision maker and putting the defense into rotations.

Letting Steph hero ball has resulted in 10 points less a game versus the Mavs series. But then again Celtics have better overall defenders than the Mavs.

A player like Draymond getting noticeably worse as shooter over their career is rather odd. 

Edited by Loch Ness Monster
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Make em eat Taco Bell

Make em eat Taco Bell 1549

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4 Warrriors have NBA dads (so close to Father's Day) - Steph, Klay, Wiggins, Payton.  Is that an NBA record for a roster? 

Al Horford needs to score 15 in H2 for them to win, because the Big 3 aren't getting it done. GS interior defense is preventing all drives and Cs cannot hit a 3, mostly because of few clean looks. 

Can't count on Boston to win Game 6 at home either. 

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aggie08

aggie08 21793

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2 minutes ago, Michael Knight said:

i mean if you let andrew wiggins beat you, you've given up

A long ways to go still, but...

Andrew Wiggins: 2nd best player on an NBA Championship team.

What the fuck.

Boston needs to come back and win this just to restore order to the world.

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