Realignment talk not going away

[USC Traveler 488]

1 hour ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Yeah, I don't think Penn State, Michigan, Ohio State, and the Cali schools are anti expansion.  I presume everyone else is though. 

They're anti-revenue dilution.  Thamel, Auerbach and others have said that UM, OSU, PSU aren't voting to add PNW schools because they'd dilute revenue.

Feldman and the LATimes both reported when USC and UCLA joined that USC lobbied to keep other West Coast schools out.

From what UCLA people have told me, they also lobbied to keep the PNW schools out.

Given the connections between USC and Stanford (only private schools in PAC, and USC has played them more times than any other school), and the fact that ND likes playing Stanford every year, they'd obviously be the exception.  They actually would help with travel for the LA schools, and It would make end of year scheduling easy for the BIG with all of USC, ND, Stanford and UCLA in the conference.

I've heard from a couple of people who would know that Stanford was originally slotted to come with USC to the BIG until Fox said they wanted UCLA instead to lock up the LA market and shut the PAC out of LA.

[Loose Stool 112]

LOLZ

[DanTheHorn 4913]

10 minutes ago, USC Traveler said:

Feldman and the LATimes both reported when USC and UCLA joined that USC lobbied to keep other West Coast schools out.

Did they make sure they got an air tight gentlemen's agreement?

[DanTheHorn 4913]

3 hours ago, gatormarc said:

 

Washignton & Oregon regarding Rutgers or Maryland throwing their weight around.

[Satchel 6925]

Big 12 looking to modernize TV broadcasts with in-game interviews, expanded locker room access

https://www.cbssports.com/c...

[CustersDoctor 584]

4 hours ago, gatormarc said:

 

Obviously he can't MATH. Together USC and UCLA will host nine East Block conference games a year. So there are five BIG schools that won't travel to California in any particular season. Being one of the five schools that doesn't travel west would be a slight advantage. If you add OUW then the west coast schools will host a combined total of 14 East Block schools meaning each east block school will make ONE and only one west coast trip in a season and nobody has the advantage of avoiding the stress of traveling to California.

[TKthunder2 4985]

5 hours ago, Al_4_ISU said:

It's not about travel.  It's pretty obvious a shit ton of Big 10 Presidents don't want to expand any further because their schools will be less competitive and get pushed into lesser TV windows.

Once they get in conference play the B1G will have about 7 games per week.

They only have 3 OTA windows for 3 games and will put 3 on the B1G network. That leaves a single game for FS1 which is worse than ESPN2.

So Ohio St, Michigan, Penn St, USC will take the three OTA games and the FS1 most weeks save when they play each other or maybe when there is a really attractive tier 2 game (think something like Michigan St versus Wisconsin)

So unless you’re playing a big boy, you’re not getting on the big networks.

Add 2-4 more schools could actually add more windows for exposure.

ESPN may buy a game, mostly for their late kick window but that better than FS1/BTN.

and Amazon wanted a Friday night game which again, would be promoted like crazy on their Thursday NFL game and also likely result in more exposure than FS1/BTN.

Yes I know their are lots of reason NOT to add them, but the ‘lack of/less exposure’ is a VERY weak ass argument.

[Al_4_ISU 12447]

5 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

Once they get in conference play the B1G will have about 7 games per week.

They only have 3 OTA windows for 3 games and will put 3 on the B1G network. That leaves a single game for FS1 which is worse than ESPN2.

So Ohio St, Michigan, Penn St, USC will take the three OTA games and the FS1 most weeks save when they play each other or maybe when there is a really attractive tier 2 game (think something like Michigan St versus Wisconsin)

So unless you’re playing a big boy, you’re not getting on the big networks.

Add 2-4 more schools could actually add more windows for exposure.

ESPN may buy a game, mostly for their late kick window but that better than FS1/BTN.

and Amazon wanted a Friday night game which again, would be promoted like crazy on their Thursday NFL game and also likely result in more exposure than FS1/BTN.

Yes I know their are lots of reason NOT to add them, but the ‘lack of/less exposure’ is a VERY weak ass argument.

I’ve heard a lot of Iowa fans complain that if they add more teams they’ll have more games on Peacock or whatever.  I just assume they know more about Big 10 TV than I do.

[bullet 1596]

5 hours ago, USC Traveler said:

That's a big part of it, but that's on top of the biggest factor- the PNW schools would reduce revenue for existing members.  (Even if they come in a reduced share, they will eventually get full shares.)

If ND or FSU wanted to join, it would take about 30 seconds to vote them in because of the value both deliver.  ND is a blue blood ratings driver, while FSU is a strong second-tier tv draw in a huge population area for BTN that is fast-growing and full of elite recruits.  

Every school in the BIG would jump to add them for the revenue increases and secondary benefits.  The PNW schools offer neither elite ratings nor top tier secondary benefits, so they're not worth adding for any BIG school, but especially for the mid-lower tier BIG schools that will get shoved further down the exposure food chain for the reasons you point out.

That's why I keep asking the same question for people who think the BIG will add the PNW schools:  which existing BIG programs are voting for them ?

Washington has recruits.  Ohio St. picked off #1 and #3 in Washington a couple years ago.  Its one of the largest states not in the P2.  Both Washington and Oregon are likely to be contenders for the CFP.  So the people who vote for them are the same ones who voted for UCLA.

Plus, you have the whole west coast, not just an outpost and enough schools for an after dark contract.  Some reports do have them raising the overall contract slightly (of course others don't).  The West Coast becomes fully Big 10.

[closetojumping 62507]

4 hours ago, Hagbard Celine said:

corn luvs blue hoseshoe

Come on, Hagbard. You whiffed here. blue corn loves anacott steel.

[ChickenSandwich 9824]

3 hours ago, Loose Stool said:

LOLZ

Wait, there’s a new Mexico?

[Loose Stool 112]

1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Wait, there’s a new Mexico?

Well, it's not new and it's not Mexico, but yeah...

[Hagbard Celine 10848]

3 hours ago, CustersDoctor said:

Obviously he can't MATH. Together USC and UCLA will host nine East Block conference games a year. So there are five BIG schools that won't travel to California in any particular season. Being one of the five schools that doesn't travel west would be a slight advantage. If you add OUW then the west coast schools will host a combined total of 14 East Block schools meaning each east block school will make ONE and only one west coast trip in a season and nobody has the advantage of avoiding the stress of traveling to California.

so you are saying 14 teams are only going to play 2 of the 4 pac teams at home back east and only at home......    these maths are fluid

[Hagbard Celine 10848]

1 hour ago, closetojumping said:

Come on, Hagbard. You whiffed here. blue corn loves anacott steel.

whatever

corn loves them some pacific ocean 'cruitin - it's dr. tom's unforeseen salvation

[Trojan Man 429]

4 hours ago, CustersDoctor said:

Obviously he can't MATH. Together USC and UCLA will host nine East Block conference games a year. So there are five BIG schools that won't travel to California in any particular season. Being one of the five schools that doesn't travel west would be a slight advantage. If you add OUW then the west coast schools will host a combined total of 14 East Block schools meaning each east block school will make ONE and only one west coast trip in a season and nobody has the advantage of avoiding the stress of traveling to California.

I don't think this is how the eastern B1G schools will look at it.  USC and UCLA will combine to host 8 eastern B1G teams per year (one gets 4 conference home games, one gets 5, one of those games will be USC vs UCLA).  That means 6 B1G schools won't have to head out west, nearly as many as will head west, so you're almost as likely to benefit from this set up as you are to be hurt by it.  If you get USC or UCLA as a permanent game you're going west 3/4 years, if you don't you're going west 2/4 years.  As long as the 4 schools that end up getting USC/UCLA as a permanent opponent (subtracting a slot since the LA schools will be assigned each other) aren't too butthurt about making an extra West Coast trip every presidential administration this won't cause any rifts.  I suspect one or two of those slots will go to eager volunteers who want to play more games in LA for recruiting purposes, particularly Nebraska.  From a competitive standpoint in a tight conference race it's just as likely all teams involved went to the West Coast or none went to the West Coast as it is some did and some didn't.  If USC or UCLA are involved in the race the B1G teams won't have any room to complain about their one long trip vs USC's/UCLA's travel itinerary.

You also have to look at the benefits of traveling West from their perspective.  Going to LA provides major benefits when it comes to recruiting and exposure.  It gives your fans a trip to watch their team play in historic bucket list stadiums in sunny 65 degree weather late in the season while the rest of the B1G's footprint is frozen over.  Every school has some kind of LA alumni organization to help plan events and do fundraisers.  Your trip to LA is a major reason the B1G will be the richest conference in CFB.  Those are enough pros to deal with one long plane flight every couple years.

Now look at how those pros stack up when going to Oregon or Washington.  They're all inferior to varying degrees compared to what you get from going to LA.  Recruiting pipelines don't exist in Oregon.  Washington offers some decent recruiting but it's worse than what you get from LA.  Market exposure is similar, Eugene/Portland are totally outclassed by LA while Seattle is good but not LA good.  November games in the PNW give you freezing rain and fog so thick you can't see your hand in front of your face, not exactly the nice weekend getaway that LA provides for your fans late in the season.  They have cool stadiums but again, not on the same level as the Coliseum and the Rose Bowl.  Any alumni groups B1G schools have in Oregon and Washington won't be as big and active as they are in LA.  Most importantly, the money they would add to the conference is much less than what USC and UCLA added.  What exactly is the point of adding the West Coast's Great Value brands when you already landed Coke and Pepsi?

[billfromlaketravis 11444]

The Big 12 is doing interesting things that the fourth best conference should be doing. Games in Mexico, conference pro days. Both cool ideas, but beneath Texas and OU. 
 

I still think they screwed up adding UCF and Cincy, probably BYU, but Yormark seems to have a vision tondrive the conference forward. Best of luck to the Irate8 - TCU, Tech, Baylor, and Okie State. 

[Satchel 6925]

The B12 panicked and in the process made some unwise additions It will be interesting to see how it all works out.

[BurntOrange&White 39930]

13 minutes ago, Satchel said:

The B12 panicked and in the process made some unwise additions It will be interesting to see how it all works out.

How is adding Ohio and Florida recruiting grounds unwise? They literally picked the 4 best possible teams from G5. That’s why pac has only mentioned SDSU, Rice, SMU, etc as possible additions. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by BurntOrange&White

[USC Traveler 488]

5 hours ago, bullet said:

Washington has recruits.  Ohio St. picked off #1 and #3 in Washington a couple years ago.  Its one of the largest states not in the P2.  Both Washington and Oregon are likely to be contenders for the CFP.  So the people who vote for them are the same ones who voted for UCLA.

Plus, you have the whole west coast, not just an outpost and enough schools for an after dark contract.  Some reports do have them raising the overall contract slightly (of course others don't).  The West Coast becomes fully Big 10.

WA is nowhere near CA or FL when it comes to recruiting, and OR is barren, but both PNW schools will take CA recruits from BIG programs if they're in the conference.  They'll also be better than more than 1/2 of the BIG teams on the field, so more Ls for the mid-lower tier.

And if they brought monetary value, they'd already be in.

Those "attributes" are nothing like what the LA schools brought, so exactly which BIG schools are voting to add the PNW schools ?

 

 

[Trojan Man 429]

1 hour ago, billfromlaketravis said:

The Big 12 is doing interesting things that the fourth best conference should be doing. Games in Mexico, conference pro days. Both cool ideas, but beneath Texas and OU. 
 

I still think they screwed up adding UCF and Cincy, probably BYU, but Yormark seems to have a vision tondrive the conference forward. Best of luck to the Irate8 - TCU, Tech, Baylor, and Okie State. 

I think the conference-wide pro day is a great idea that other conferences, including the B1G and the SEC, should copy.  That kind of event would have scouts from every NFL team present, which would be beneficial for prospects on teams that don't produce a lot of talent.  NFL scouting departments might blow off Purdue's or Kentucky's pro day if it's scheduled for the same day as pro days at more talent-rich programs and their only prospects are 6th-7th rounders and UDFAs.  But if they do a pro day alongside Ohio State's and Alabama's prospects they will be seen by every team and have more visibility.  That also gives scouts a chance to see how prospects perform outside of their comfort zone.  They can see how QBs and WRs react to new teammates like they will in the NFL instead of throwing to/running routes for the same guys they have been playing with for years.

49 minutes ago, Satchel said:

The B12 panicked and in the process made some unwise additions It will be interesting to see how it all works out.

Those 4 new teams are what positioned the Big 12 to take out the Pac 12.  If they were still sitting at 8 members for 2024 they wouldn't have the media contract they ended up signing, they would be fighting the Pac 12 for BYU and Houston and the Big 12 might get poached by the Pac 12.

[billfromlaketravis 11444]

Look the SEC added piggy and aggy/flirted with OU for years to draw Texas into the SEC. We appointed a new president with an open mind, and here we ended up in the best football/baseball conference. Hoops should get better, but I’ll acknowledge SEC hoops needs better coaches. 
 

aggy, piggy, and OU will puff their chests, and never admit to being bait. But they were/are. If we can play some half ass football, it should be a fun future. aggy has been getting a little fat and cocky without us beating their ass annually. The best way to shut their mouths to crack them a couple times Captain Call style. 
 

 

 

[TKthunder2 4985]

4 hours ago, Hagbard Celine said:

so you are saying 14 teams are only going to play 2 of the 4 pac teams at home back east and only at home......    these maths are fluid

He didn’t explain it well.

Assume the Big Ten expands with Oregon and Washington only to get to 18 and stays with just 9 conference games.

The best setup would be rotating 8 conference games and only having a single rival you play each year.

For the West Coast school USC/UCLA and Oregon/Washington are the obvious pairings.

So let’s take USC. In this scenario you know that they will play 2 West Coast teams in UCLA and rotate Oregon or Washington each year. That leaves them 7 other conference games to fill with the remaining 14 current Big Ten schools.

4 West Coast schools would each play 7 Big Ten schools which means EVERY one of the current Big Ten schools would have to travel West at least once per year. You wouldn’t have a year where Ohio State lucks out and does not have to travel West for a road game.

With ONLY USC/UCLA there will be years where Ohio State will have that advantage while Michigan and Penn State travel West and years where it’s there other way around.

The point was simply from a competitive standpoint in football (but this also works too in basketball) this solves a potential pain point. Now there are many other issues, but this is one item that actually works out in favor of adding Oregon and Washington.

[bullet 1596]

1 hour ago, USC Traveler said:

WA is nowhere near CA or FL when it comes to recruiting, and OR is barren, but both PNW schools will take CA recruits from BIG programs if they're in the conference.  They'll also be better than more than 1/2 of the BIG teams on the field, so more Ls for the mid-lower tier.

And if they brought monetary value, they'd already be in.

Those "attributes" are nothing like what the LA schools brought, so exactly which BIG schools are voting to add the PNW schools ?

 

 

Well Texas A&M, Arkansas, Missouri and South Carolina's attributes were nothing like Texas brought, but the SEC added them.

[DFW Horn 6123]

6 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

...aggy has been getting a little fat and cocky without us beating their ass annually. The best way to shut their mouths to crack them a couple times Captain Call style. 

I've yet to figure out what aggy is cocky about, but you ain't lyin'. Their record against Bama & LSU during their SEC tenure mirrors their last decade + in the Big 12 against UT & OU. Futility, defined.

[BurntOrange&White 39930]

6 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Look the SEC added piggy and aggy/flirted with OU for years to draw Texas into the SEC. We appointed a new president with an open mind, and here we ended up in the best football/baseball conference. Hoops should get better, but I’ll acknowledge SEC hoops needs better coaches. 
 

aggy, piggy, and OU will puff their chests, and never admit to being bait. But they were/are. If we can play some half ass football, it should be a fun future. aggy has been getting a little fat and cocky without us beating their ass annually. The best way to shut their mouths to crack them a couple times Captain Call style. 
 

 

 

The aggies were strictly chosen to give SEC the in they needed in Texas. Missouri is a geographical addition. UVA(Virginia) is another geographical team that was mentioned in possible SEC expansion. I could also see UNC as a team the SEC would target for geographic reasons. They could have a stranglehold on all the southeastern talent and Virginia talent which is like 60ish percent of the draft if not more. See all the NFL draft charts by HS state for the years.

Edited May 5, 2023 by BurntOrange&White

[TKthunder2 4985]

1 hour ago, BurntOrange&White said:

The aggies were strictly chosen to give SEC the in they needed in Texas. Missouri is a geographical addition. UVA(Virginia) is another geographical team that was mentioned in possible SEC expansion. I could also see UNC as a team the SEC would target for geographic reasons. They could have a stranglehold on all the southeastern talent and Virginia talent which is like 60ish percent of the draft if not more. See all the NFL draft charts by HS state for the years.

The SEC wanted Texas and Arkansas back in the 90’s. State politics of the SWC prevented Texas from joining so they added Arkansas.

South Carolina was the throw in team that got them to 12 for a CCG, nothing more.

aggy was an easy way to get into the state for the SECN.

Mizzou was just another throw in, nothing more.

[closetohumping 17431]

3 hours ago, BurntOrange&White said:

The aggies were strictly chosen to give SEC the in they needed in Texas. Missouri is a geographical addition. UVA(Virginia) is another geographical team that was mentioned in possible SEC expansion. I could also see UNC as a team the SEC would target for geographic reasons. They could have a stranglehold on all the southeastern talent and Virginia talent which is like 60ish percent of the draft if not more. See all the NFL draft charts by HS state for the years.

Pretty much already have it

[gatormarc 911]

4 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

The SEC wanted Texas and Arkansas back in the 90’s. State politics of the SWC prevented Texas from joining so they added Arkansas.

South Carolina was the throw in team that got them to 12 for a CCG, nothing more.

aggy was an easy way to get into the state for the SECN.

Mizzou was just another throw in, nothing more.

I think South Carolina got the nod after FSU said no.

I don't know if they were looking 1 East/1 West or if they were just working down the list (and we could have had Arky/Texas).

Edited May 5, 2023 by gatormarc

[closetohumping 17431]

3 hours ago, gatormarc said:

I think South Carolina got the nod after FSU said no.

I don't know if they were looking 1 East/1 West or if they were just working down the list (and we could have had Arky/Texas).

Wait, thought SEC has hand shake agreement where only 1 school from each state?

[Hagbard Celine 10848]

4 hours ago, gatormarc said:

I think South Carolina got the nod after FSU said no.

I don't know if they were looking 1 East/1 West or if they were just working down the list (and we could have had Arky/Texas).

the fsu side of the story:

Spoiler

FSU and the ACC

Note: The Southern Conference was a predecessor of the SEC and the ACC. By 1932, the Southern Conference included all of the SEC and ACC teams. In 1933, 13 teams left and formed the SEC. Clemson, Duke, Maryland, North Carolina, North Carolina State, South Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Military Institute, Virginia Tech and Washington and Lee remained. In 1936, six new teams were added - The Citadel, Davidson, Furman, Richmond, Wake Forest, and William and Mary. Virginia withdrew in 1937. George Washington was added in 1941 and West Virginia in 1950. In 1950, the Southern Conference had 17 members.

From the Jacksonville Journal, 10/30/50, page 10

TALLAHASSEE, FL - Florida State University may soon become a member of the Southern Conference. It won't be this year, but it's very probable that year or 1952 will find the Seminoles in the Southern, one of the Southland's oldest, largest and most important athletic organizations.

Officials here won't comment on the matter, but although their silence isn't a confirmation, neither is it a denial

The Journal has learned from extremely reliable sources that Florida State would be happy to become a member of the conference. It is probably safe to say that steps have been taken toward that goal. Andit is probable, that when and if official action is taken and announced, the conference will be in a receptive mood.

Dr. Howard Danford, Florida State's director of athletics, was asked about the subject. "Our athletic committee has voted to stay in the Dixie Conference for another year," Dr. Danford stated, "and after that I have no comment." The "year" remaining in the small DixieConference is the current "school year" and does not include the 1951 football season.

Coach Don Veller, who has guided Florida State teams to 21 victories in 23 games, the last 10 in succession, declared, "we'll play anybody."

Don has been urged by students and thousands of fans of his team to play a tougher schedule. He agrees that sooner or later his Seminoles will be ready to take on more rugged opponents, but declared, "We need to get a little mmore settled n our recruiting plan. Our coaches are ready, although we need more of them."

"We might have beaten Florida last year," Don said when asked about recent fuore about an FSU-Florida game. He added, "Florida has better and more versatile material than we do this year, and we don't have a passer like Sullivan."

"People don't realize that we are just now getting into the toughest part of our schedule," Veller declared. "If we're good enough to beat Stetson and Tampa, we're good enough to play a tougher schedule," he added, and then grinned, "but I don't think we're that good."

"I didn't ask to play Florida," the coach reported, "the students suggested it. They won't rest until we play them."

Don was asked how strong he considered his Seminoles in comparison with Southeastern Conference teams. "I feel we're on a par with Auburn," he said.

There's a rumor here that the school will be allowed to subsidize athletes under the scholarship system used by other Southern schools. "I'm not free to comment on that." Veller stated, "It's not for me to decide."

Note: In the spring of 1953, Clemson, Duke, Maryland, North Carolina, North Carolina State, South Carolina and Wake Forest withdrew from the Southern Conference and formed the ACC. In December of 1953, Virginia was admitted. In 1971, South Carolina withdrew and in 1978, Georgia Tech was admitted.

From the Florida Times Union, 5/13/2001

TALLAHASSEE, FL - Ten years have passed since Florida State University helped usher in a new era in college athletics, forsaking 40 years of football independence to become the ninth member of the Atlantic Coast Conference.

The choice of conference affiliation sparked some debate among Seminoles supporters, and still does.

From a football standpoint, it's hard to mount a convincing argument against the results piled up by coach Bobby Bowden's team since the move. Running roughshod over a league that was supposed to benefit from their addition, the Seminoles have won 70 of 72 conference games and nine consecutive ACC titles, and extended their NCAA-record streak of 10-win seasons to 14.

FSU has parlayed those regular-season results into a bowl bonanza. Five times the 'Noles have played bowl games to decide the national championship, including the first three Bowl Championship Series (BCS) games. Twice they succeeded, bringing home the university's first national title in any sport in 1993, before adding a second in 1999.

Financially, Florida State's athletic department has realized a windfall in excess of $57.3 million as a direct result of its ACC membership. No matter how you measure that sum, it's a tremendous return on the initial investment of $500,000, which consummated the FSU-ACC marriage on July 1, 1991.

"The decision for Florida State to join from a pure business standpoint, particularly with regard to football, was visionary," said ACC Commissioner John Swofford, who at the time of the decision was the athletics director at North Carolina. "I think it has turned out what it should be, and that's a good marriage."

But as with any marriage, there are trying moments. Football and financial success aside, FSU has failed to cash in on the notion that the move to the ACC would upgrade its men's basketball program. Likewise, the league continues its uphill fight for football respect, made more difficult by the dominance of the FSU program expected to serve as a catalyst.

"In one sense it appears to be a brilliant decision," Seminole Boosters, Inc., President Andy Miller said, espousing the financial benefits FSU enjoys by virtue of its ACC membership.

Miller, however, can't help but wonder what might have become of his alma mater had it opted to join the Southeastern Conference. A member of the President's Executive Advisory Council that ultimately recommended the ACC over the SEC to then-FSU president Bernie Sliger, Miller was among a majority who favored the SEC from the start.

"From the standpoint of bringing crowds to Tallahassee for football, it [the ACC] has not been a plus at all," Miller said, acknowledging that he accepted the trade-off of the SEC's rich football tradition for the "better fit" of the ACC.

"Would l like to see Alabama, Auburn and Georgia come to Tallahassee?" Miller asked. "Hell yes. Did we need the SEC to become one of the big boys? Hell no. Now we are one of the big boys."

That hasn't precluded current FSU Athletics Director Dave Hart from entering discussions with Seminole fans who believe the university would be a better fit in the SEC.

"As the years have gone by you hear less of it, but it hasn't totally dissipated, either," said Hart, who in 1995 succeeded Bob Goin, the driving force behind the ACC decision. "From a geographic perspective, it could still be argued today.

"For Florida State and Georgia Tech, we are Atlantic Coast Conference members housed in the SEC territory. You have to live that to totally appreciate and understand it."

Hart, an Alabama graduate, won't argue that playing an SEC football schedule would virtually assure sellouts every Saturday. At the same time, he credits former ACC Commissioner Gene Corrigan, who sold the league on the Seminoles, with providing FSU and the ACC the opportunity to realize its potential as players on the nation's center stage.

Through the eyes of FSU, Goin shared Corrigan's vision. He worked tirelessly to build consensus among those who would determine the university's conference course, many of whom favored the SEC.

"I thought it [the ACC] was going to be a good fit," Goin said, "and history would show it was a good fit."

What Goin accomplished over a seven-week stretch from late July to mid-September of 1990, as FSU entertained its conference options, culminated with a decision that altered the university's athletic course and figured prominently in the changing complexion of college football.

How the deal was done

Throughout most of its independent football years, Florida State longed for inclusion; the opportunity to associate itself with the very best. And in Florida's capital city, the best college football had always been played in the Southeastern Conference.

From the time that the first SEC team appeared on the Seminoles' schedule in 1952, six years after the Florida State College for Women became a coeducational institution, FSU fancied itself as the new neighbor, biding its time until it was invited over. In the early 1970s, former FSU president Stanley Marshall began to push the issue, conducting a personal tour of SEC campuses in an attempt to land the Seminoles a place in the conference.

That vision remained as late as 1990, when the face of college football began to change. In August of 1989, Penn State, which along with Notre Dame, Miami and FSU represented the most prominent football independents, accepted an invitation to join the Big Ten. Shortly thereafter, the SEC announced its intention to expand from 10 to 12 teams, quickly snapping up Arkansas from the soon-to-be-disbanded Southwest Conference.

Florida State, with its 32-4 record over a three-year stretch under Bowden, had become an attractive dance partner.

"We had tried to get in the SEC for 30 years and had been turned down all the time," Bowden said, recalling the events in the summer of '90 that ultimately led the school to forgo its independent status. "Then all of a sudden they came to us wanting to get in there."

FSU, a member of the non-football-playing Metro Conference since 1976, had begun to realize the growing challenge of maintaining its football independence before the suitors came calling in the summer of '90. As the talk of conference expansion permeated the NCAA Division I ranks, the threat of scheduling difficulties became real. Lack of conference affiliation also prevented FSU from realizing its full financial potential.

Sensing the time was right to consider an all-sports conference affiliation, FSU President Bernie Sliger appointed an External Advisory Committee to examine the issue. The 12-member committee, dubbed "The A Team", included a host of heavy-hitting boosters, most of whom had strong feelings about joining the SEC from the outset.

"I walked in there as a committee member solely SEC," prominent booster Andy Haggard said. "I was astounded that there would be any other talk. I would say that we were two-thirds SEC because we always wanted to be in the SEC and were always blocked by Florida."

SEC Commissioner Roy Kramer said he never took for granted that Florida State would follow Arkansas as the newest member of the conference, though others did.

"There was a lot of speculation to that respect,'' Kramer recalled. "Our presidents simply announced that they were expanding and didn't mention any schools. I think public perception at that time would have said yes. But factually, speaking for the presidents -- and it was a presidential move -- no.''

The SEC wasn't the only option. The Metro Conference was exploring the formation of a "super" conference, including the 'Noles in their plans for a 16-team league. The surprise player in the field was the ACC, led by commissioner Gene Corrigan, the former athletic director at Notre Dame, who sought to bolster the league's football stature.

It didn't take long for the committee to realize FSU had become a hot property in the escalating expansion race.

"At that time we thought we had arrived, when you have the SEC at your doorstep," Haggard said. "We had the ACC begging us and the SEC begging us."

At the annual ACC meetings on May 22 in Myrtle Beach, S.C., Florida State was mentioned for the first time. The discussions led Corrigan to schedule another meeting on July 25 at Sedgefield Country Club in Greensboro, N.C., in the exact room where the conference was formed in 1953.

Frustrated by the league's lack of focus on the expansion issue, Corrigan opted for a different approach at the Sedgefield meeting.

"I said, 'Let's make believe that we've agreed to expand. Each one of you has to write down a name of school,' " Corrigan recalled.

The secret ballot of member schools turned up four votes each for Syracuse and Florida State.

By the close of the four-hour meeting, Corrigan had permission from the ACC athletic directors to approach both schools to gauge interest. His first call was to Syracuse A.D. Jake Crouthamel. Crouthamel expressed interest, but because the Orangemen were charter members of the Big East, said the ACC would have to build a strong case. Corrigan, however, was not interested in wining and dining and told Crouthamel: "Just forget I called."

His call to Goin, however, yielded a different response.

"Bob said, 'Oh my goodness, I was hoping there was some interest [from] the ACC,'" Corrigan said.

Time and popular opinion, at least among FSU's decision-makers, were not on Goin's side and he expressed those concerns to Corrigan during the initial phone call.

Corrigan said that Goin had informed him that talks with Kramer and SEC officials were moving swiftly.

"He [Goin] said, 'We don't have much time,' " said Corrigan, who arranged an Aug. 17 meeting with Sliger and Goin before a group of ACC faculty representatives at the league's offices in Greensboro.

"They were very impressive," Corrigan said of FSU's presentation. "I thought we might get a unanimous vote."

It did not take much to convince Corrigan that the addition of FSU would have a profound impact on the league. Not only would the Seminoles' football program lend credibility to the ACC, but the prospect of tapping into Florida's vast media market was particularly enticing.

Needing six affirmative votes for expansion -- and fully aware that Duke and Maryland were opposed -- Corrigan immediately set out on a whirlwind personal tour in an attempt to sell the league's university presidents.

Sliger and Goin returned to Tallahassee equally impressed, but facing an equally daunting charge -- altering the minds of those who wanted FSU to join the SEC.

Selling the idea

Corrigan had a gut feeling that the face-to-face meeting between Sliger, Goin and ACC representatives had gone well.

"I think our people really liked Bernie," Corrigan said. "The funny thing about Bernie was he really wanted to go into the SEC, but he let other people make that decision."

And that probably was greatest reason for Corrigan's optimism. Goin, FSU's first-year A.D., was the point-man in the school's search for conference affiliation.

"Bob Goin and Gene Corrigan clicked immediately," said former FSU sports information director Wayne Hogan, a Goin confidant throughout the process. "They formed a very tight and lasting relationship right from the beginning."

Goin, however, didn't allow any perceived bias to prevent him from a thorough examination of the two leagues. Armed with comparative charts on subjects as diverse as average SAT scores of incoming freshmen, travel distances between FSU and the two league's schools and projected revenues from football attendance, television contracts and bowl receipts, Goin presented his case.

"My job was to do the pros and the cons and I did that," Goin said. "I shared it with a number of contstituencies there and after a time it started unfolding."

Not surprisingly, in the ACC's favor.

Wake Forest University President Thomas Hearn, who represented the ACC on the NCAA President's Commission, said Sliger's strong stance on academic reform put to rest any questions about FSU's off-field accountability. Sliger was also a member of the President's Commission.

"Bernie had already earned his stars," Hearn said. "No one had any doubt about the integrity of Florida State's commitment to academics."

Since its 1953 inception the ACC had made only one move in terms of membership, and that was replacing charter member South Carolina, which resigned in 1971, with Georgia Tech in 1978. Coincidentally, Georgia Tech had withdrawn from the SEC in 1964, while South Carolina ended 19 years of independence by joining the SEC in 1990.

Corrigan's greatest challenge wasn't selling the league on FSU, but on expansion in general. The eight schools had grown comfortable with their place in the NCAA hierarchy, their philosophies regarding academics and athletics and their revenue-sharing plan that offered the same financial benefits -- much of which came from its lucrative basketball television contract -- to all of its members.

Decision time

While conference affiliation would impact FSU's entire athletic program, suggesting that football was anything less than a major factor in expansion talk would be naive. So while Bowden was not directly involved in the decision, his support was critical in the process.

Not surprisingly, the Birmingham born-and-raised Seminoles coach -- who spent one year as a quarterback at Alabama -- said the SEC was "emotionally" his first choice. Even so, he carefully weighed all options.

"I was probably involved just about as much as anybody in that I agreed to [the ACC]," Bowden said. "I think if I would have wanted to fight for the SEC it might have caused some concerns for everybody, but I didn't feel that way.

"When you started looking at it from a financial perspective and what's best for us, I felt pretty sure what we should do is go ahead and join the ACC. ... Bob [Goin] had it laid out pretty good. I'll be honest with you, it was a no-brainer."

Haggard, like many on the advisory committee, valued Bowden's view on the choice of conference.

"Bobby was totally SEC when it started," Haggard said. "As Bobby's thinking changed, our thinking changed. It ended up unanimous ACC."

By the time a contingent of ACC school and league officials made their Sept. 2 tour of FSU's campus, the league had already made substantial gains on the SEC's initial foothold. Finances, football and basketball prowess aside, the ACC's overall image -- specifically its academic reputation -- had left a strong impression.

"More people here wanted the ACC; that's what really changed me," Sliger said. "The faculty really wanted the ACC. There were very few [faculty members] that had gone to the SEC, but many of them had gone to North Carolina and Virginia, places like that."

While the ACC and FSU continued to discover common ground through the search process, the SEC was losing ground. In early August, athletic directors Joe Dean of LSU and Hootie Ingram, who was at Alabama after nine years with FSU, publicly proclaimed the Seminoles would join the SEC. Time, however, was no longer on the SEC's side and Kramer's timing made it even worse.

Kramer and top aide Mark Womack made their official visit and presentation in Tallahassee on Sept. 11, perhaps not coincidentally, the same day that Corrigan arranged a conference call with the ACC's university presidents to make his final presentation for expansion and Florida State.

Hogan vividly remembers the SEC presentation before the entire FSU athletic department.

"That very day, when Bob Goin and Roy Kramer sat in the room there was very much a different dynamic," Hogan said. "It was very stiff and very cold. ....

"The SEC in those days was certainly the 3,000-pound gorilla. They kept putting out vibes, 'How could you not want to play with us? We've already got a great deal going; wouldn't you want to jump on our train?' "

Whether real or merely perceived, the vibes generated from the SEC's presentation didn't sit well with some at FSU.

"There was quite a bit of feeling that we didn't want to be entrapped; a feeling among some of the fans that if we go into that conference that has been dominated by the Alabamas, Auburns and Georgias we'd be kind of a stepchild," Miller said. "[That] we wouldn't get the respect we deserved."

While Kramer emerged from the five-hour long meeting with FSU officials, declining comment on the school's possible membership, Corrigan forged ahead. His conference call with the presidents went so well that he set a conference call vote on expansion for 9:30 the following morning.

The aftermath

Corrigan woke up on Sept. 12, 1990 certain he had the six votes necessary to move ahead and expand. Duke and Maryland, he knew, would cast the only no votes. He was even more certain that if the league agreed on expansion, adding Florida State would be nothing more than a formality.

In a matter of minutes, Corrigan saw all the hard work on the delicate issue come apart. Clemson, Georgia Tech and Virginia, the strongest supporters on the issue and FSU all along, voted for expansion. Duke and Maryland voted against, but to Corrigan's surprise, North Carolina, North Carolina State and Wake Forest abstained; the equivalent of three no votes.

Expansion was suddenly dead.

"Corrigan was just about in tears when the vote was over," said Tom Mickle, Corrigan's top aide.

"All of a sudden we've got these abstentions," Corrigan recalled. "I've got the athletic directors on another line waiting. ... A couple of them went ballistic."

The resounding voice of the AD's was: "That's not the way we thought we were voting."

Corrigan could have let the issue die, but after conferring with the athletic directors, agreed to have a second vote at 7 p.m., after the abstaining parties had the opportunity to hammer out final questions.

Meanwhile, the SEC had caught wind of the ACC's intention to hold an expansion vote and quickly convened its own conference call. They voted to not extend Florida State an invitation to the conference.

Goin and the Seminoles were in limbo.

As the second vote was taking place Goin was on a plane to an in-state function, kept abreast of the proceedings via cell phone from Hogan, who was in constant communication with Corrigan and Mickle.

At the same time Goin said he was, "dodging Kramer's call because I didn't want him to tell me he didn't want me."

"That was some tense times," Hogan said. "Had that vote not gone our way, we were screwed."

"There was anxiety, but at the same token, I was representing a pretty good university," Goin said . "If you're not carrying a very strong deck, I would have had more anxiety. I don't think we would have been in the open market very long."

It didn't matter. The re-vote went 6-2 in favor of expansion and 8-0 in favor of the Seminoles. FSU had a new home.

Corrigan extended FSU its formal invitation the following day -- Sept. 13 -- and FSU accepted without hestitation.

Kramer said he has no hard feelings about Florida State's maneuvering. Asked if, in the end, he felt Florida State had played the SEC's offer against the ACC's, Kramer said:

"Officially, no. I had known Bernie [Sliger] forever and considered him a friend. I dealt with him and he was very up front. I never felt we were being used.''

"With every fiber in my being I thought it was the right thing at that time for Florida State," Goin said. "That program at that time fit better with the ACC than any. I don't know, they may not make that same decision today as they did 10 years ago."

Goin was never fully able to enjoy the fruits of his effort. He was forced out of his post in 1994 in the wake of allegations that he curried financial favor from a contractor that was working on Doak Campbell Stadium; a charge that he was later cleared of.

In hindsight, Swofford believes the league has benefited greater from FSU's addition than any of the other conferences which branched out, or cropped up like the Big 12, as a result of the expansion rush.

"I think definitely we have," said Swofford, in his fouth year as commissioner. "It's an excellent fit. Of any people that would have been available at that point in time, Florida State was the ideal choice for our league. If we had to do it all over again, Florida State is exactly who we would want to have."

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Hagbard Celine

[Hagbard Celine 10848]

la times on pig's side

Spoiler

Arkansas Joins SEC; There May Be More : Colleges: Miami, Texas, Florida State, South Carolina, Texas A&M; also might wind up in Southeastern Conference.

By GENE WOJCIECHOWSKI

Aug. 2, 1990 12 AM PT

TIMES STAFF WRITER

The University of Arkansas board of trustees confirmed Wednesday that the worst-kept secret in college athletics was true: The Razorbacks are switching conferences.

After listening to recommendations by Arkansas Athletic Director Frank Broyles and Chancellor Dan Ferritor, the board voted to end the school’s 76-year association with the Southwest Conference and accept an invitation to join the Southeastern Conference, effective June 30, 1991.

In addition, Miami, Florida State, South Carolina and even SWC mainstays Texas and Texas A&M; have been mentioned as potential SEC members. Several reports have Florida State joining the conference within six weeks, with perhaps two or four teams to follow.

Broyles said Arkansas’ decision was a prelude of things to come.

Arkansas and Penn State, he said, are only the first of many powerful Division I programs that will switch conferences.

“I expect a major upheaval,” he said.

Several major conferences, including the Pac-10 and Atlantic Coast Conference, recently have reconsidered their stances toward expansion. Television revenue and gate receipts, an athletic program’s lifeblood, are at stake.

Arkansas’ decision to leave the SWC was simple. Barring “dramatic change,” Broyles said the conference will no longer be as competitive as it was in the 1960s, ‘70s and ‘80s. He said the popularity of professional sports in the conference’s boundaries--three NBA teams, two NFL and two major league baseball franchises--have lowered the SWC’s revenue. Recent figures show that an average of 50% of the available seats are empty at SWC football games.

“If we thought the SWC could change its direction and get competitive for the ‘90s (Arkansas would have stayed),” Broyles said. “But we don’t know what they could do.”

Money wasn’t the entire issue. Broyles said the athletic program’s financial status was “extremely sound for the next 10 years.” Instead, Broyles said he was more concerned with the long-term benefits of the move: recruiting, fan base and image.

According to the present timetable, Arkansas will participate in every SEC sport, except football, beginning in 1991. The following year the Razorbacks will be added to the SEC football schedule.

Broyles did suggest, however, that the SWC might consider releasing the Arkansas football program from its contract before 1992. SEC Commissioner Roy Kramer said he hopes an understanding can be reached.

“Years ago, everyone thought football schedules were like tombstones,” he said. “You carve them up and never change them. That’s different now.”

The SEC, which added a school for the first time in its 57-year history, grew to 11 members.

 

 

[TKthunder2 4985]

How Texas almost joined SEC with Arkansas from Tennessee from the old SEC commissioner.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/college/2021/08/16/texas-longhorns-football-join-sec-expansion-southwest-conference-harvey-schiller/5515187001/

[Hagbard Celine 10848]

all 3 of these articles paint their protagonist as the center of gravity and before the intertrons it is difficult to reconstruct the who/what/when etc.

i always recalled we wanted to go west and aggy fucked it up

[ClubWhatever 12120]

It. 
 

doesnt.  
 

matter.  

[bullet 1596]

3 hours ago, Hagbard Celine said:

all 3 of these articles paint their protagonist as the center of gravity and before the intertrons it is difficult to reconstruct the who/what/when etc.

i always recalled we wanted to go west and aggy fucked it up

The Tennessee guy tells a story totally different than the UT president at the time, Bill Cunningham.  Who knows what Deloss wanted, but Cunningham was not interested in the SEC, even though the SEC was interested in Texas.  And Texas A&M and the SEC were interested in each other.  There WAS a deal for Texas to go to the Pac, A&M to go to the SEC and the UT/aggy game to stay on Thanksgiving.  But shortly after Arkansas announced for the SEC, Stanford vetoed Texas and it shut everything else down.  South Carolina was admitted to the SEC not too long after A&M shut down talks.

[bullet 1596]

Dennis Dodd repeats his story.  And says he confirmed it with ESPN that they told the Big 12 ADs they were only going to have the 3 conferences.  Also says 4 corners schools have regularly been in talks with the Big 12, but adds that they wouldn't be doing due diligence if they weren't.

[gatormarc 911]

20 hours ago, closetohumping said:

Wait, thought SEC has hand shake agreement where only 1 school from each state?

I'm actually not sure where that came from. UF has sponsored FSU a bunch of times over the decades.

[gatormarc 911]

19 hours ago, Hagbard Celine said:

"I walked in there as a committee member solely SEC," prominent booster Andy Haggard said. "I was astounded that there would be any other talk. I would say that we were two-thirds SEC because we always wanted to be in the SEC and were always blocked by Florida."

Florida sponsored FSU for SEC member ship in 1959, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1968, 1969, and 1970.

They also sponsored Miami several of those years as well.

It hit a brick wall because most of the SEC members had no desire to expand. Even after Georgia Tech and Tulane left, the SEC was at 10 teams, which was larger than all the other conferences and the SEC played a much smaller conference schedule. Tennessee was pushing Memphis State at the 12th and it wasn't an attractive combination.

FSU continued to make their case in the 70s and 80s but the SEC actually voted to change its constitution in 1971 to limit membership to 10 members "permanently" shutting the doors to expansion.

There was no blocking FSU those decades because the SEC wouldn't even consider expansion until Kramer basically figured out that they could apply some Division III rules to Division 1 and expand to 12 to get a conference championship game.

I understand that Florida sponsored FSU and Miami for the 1992 expansion to 12 teams.

https://www.nolefan.org/summary/fsu_sec.html

Edited May 6, 2023 by gatormarc

[CustersDoctor 584]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:56 PM, Al_4_ISU said:

I’ve heard a lot of Iowa fans complain that if they add more teams they’ll have more games on Peacock or whatever.  I just assume they know more about Big 10 TV than I do.

A great thing about conference TV deals is that they always have stipulations about every team gets a certain number of good time slots. So TV ratings disaters like Northwestern, Rutgers  & Maryland get some exposure. Iowa, which is 8th or 9th ratings wise knows that with the arrival of USC & UCLA, that they will be pushed to the 11 spot in the pecking order and would drop even further if OUW were added.

The PAC10 has 4 teams that are ratings disasters. (OST, WST, CAL, STAN) Rumors this week make it sound like NO normal linear carrier is bidding on PAC10 Tier 1 rights. By not bidding ESPN increases the chances of a PAC10 collapse. This would spur the 6 gravy PAC10 teams to join the NEW12. ESPN has the rights to the Big12. ESPN wouldn't have to find good time slots for Cal, Stan, OSt & Wst if the PAC collapses. 

[TKthunder2 4985]

https://awfulannouncing.com/college-football/pac-12-tv-deal-layoffs-kirk-schulz-washington-state.html
 

PAC12 Waiting to sign/announce deal due to layoffs at mystery partners (ESPN/Amazon?)

[tonedeaf 56]

On 5/4/2023 at 9:45 PM, billfromlaketravis said:

The Big 12 is doing interesting things that the fourth best conference should be doing. Games in Mexico, conference pro days. Both cool ideas, but beneath Texas and OU. 
 

I still think they screwed up adding UCF and Cincy, probably BYU, but Yormark seems to have a vision tondrive the conference forward. Best of luck to the Irate8 - TCU, Tech, Baylor, and Okie State. 

Fuck Baylor. 

[Jabberwocky 1666]

 

[bullet 1596]

29 minutes ago, Jabberwocky said:

 

Kind of a stupid story.  How many 5 stars were there?  According to 247 there were 32.

UGA-4

Alabama-4

Texas-3

USC-3

OU-2

A&M-2

LSU-2

Miami-2

8 schools had 2/3 of them.  The schools with one were pretty predictable-Clemson, Ohio St., Penn St., FSU, Oregon, Deion, UCLA and 3 more SEC schools-TN, S. Carolina and Ole Miss.

So the ACC had zero other than Clemson, FSU and Miami (4 from those 3).  The nPac 10 had 2.  The  nBig 10 had 2 other than USC/UCLA (4 from them), with Ohio St and Penn St. each getting 1.  The nSEC had 20.

[BurntOrange&White 39930]

7 hours ago, Jabberwocky said:

 

He's getting crushed in the comment section.

[SimonBolivar 10957]

We'll see

[gatormarc 911]

7 hours ago, bullet said:

Kind of a stupid story.  How many 5 stars were there?  According to 247 there were 32.

UGA-4

Alabama-4

Texas-3

USC-3

OU-2

A&M-2

LSU-2

Miami-2

8 schools had 2/3 of them.  The schools with one were pretty predictable-Clemson, Ohio St., Penn St., FSU, Oregon, Deion, UCLA and 3 more SEC schools-TN, S. Carolina and Ole Miss.

So the ACC had zero other than Clemson, FSU and Miami (4 from those 3).  The nPac 10 had 2.  The  nBig 10 had 2 other than USC/UCLA (4 from them), with Ohio St and Penn St. each getting 1.  The nSEC had 20.

That doesn't look right. There are usually 30-40 5 stars per year, not total over an 11 year period.

Are you looking at just the 2023 recruiting class?

[BurntOrange&White 39930]

13 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

https://awfulannouncing.com/college-football/pac-12-tv-deal-layoffs-kirk-schulz-washington-state.html
 

PAC12 Waiting to sign/announce deal due to layoffs at mystery partners (ESPN/Amazon?)

I've been waiting for this excuse.

[camel at sea 589]

11 hours ago, Jabberwocky said:

 

The Frogs just had 8 guys drafted.  The year before Baylor had 6 and Cincinnati had 9.  The Big 12 will just have to have one or two squads like those each year.  If that happens, whoever ends up at the top of the league will belong on the field with everyone but the top of the SEC.  That's doable.  In the long run, it might even end up a positive for the conference, from a perception standpoint, if the school with the NFL talent in a given year rotates through the league.  

[USC Traveler 488]

4 hours ago, gatormarc said:

That doesn't look right. There are usually 30-40 5 stars per year, not total over an 11 year period.

Are you looking at just the 2023 recruiting class?

On 247, the idea is that a five star should be a first round pick, so there are 32 each year- one for each first round pick.

We all know that's not how it works in reality, but that's how 247 sets up their rankings.

If you add up all the picks in Bullet's post, it comes out to 32. SEC-20, BIG (with USC/UCLA)-6, ACC-4, WAC10-2.

Looks to me like it was from this year's class, as USC had 3 five stars.

[camel at sea 589]

4 hours ago, SimonBolivar said:

We'll see

If ESPN is out as a primary PAC 12 partner (per Dennis Dodd report last week) then that could be the final straw for CU or Arizona.