Realignment talk not going away

[BigHornedLurker 1897]

4 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

the very last part is pretty big news and will give all haters fuel that supports the Big Evil Texas narrative

it also begs the question - if we didn't sign, how could the rest of the rig express so much surprise and outrage 2 years later when we did leave?

going to epic if the lack of signature here becomes material 

 

 

[Slacks 6792]

5 minutes ago, BigHornedLurker said:

going to epic if the lack of signature here becomes material 

 

 

I mean... we had to sign... something...

right?

[bullet 1596]

Murray St. was invited to the Missouri Valley Conference today, further stripping the Ohio Valley.  On the FBS level, there was an article a few days ago saying the Sun Belt was going to have a meeting January 25th to talk about bringing in members early or sticking with 2023.  Haven't seen anything on SEC, Big 12 or AAC moving early.

[TKthunder2 4981]

On 1/7/2022 at 8:55 PM, bullet said:

Murray St. was invited to the Missouri Valley Conference today, further stripping the Ohio Valley.  On the FBS level, there was an article a few days ago saying the Sun Belt was going to have a meeting January 25th to talk about bringing in members early or sticking with 2023.  Haven't seen anything on SEC, Big 12 or AAC moving early.

Sounds like Illinois-Chicago will also be moving from the Horizon to the MVC and that UTA will be rejoining the WAC.  Chicago St might also be joining the MEAC after they leave the WAC.

[Hurtlocker 2208]

In this thread from the ACC commish today...

 

Was this nugget (#7):

 

 

[bullet 1596]

I'm trying to figure out what he expects.  I only see 3 significant possibilities, and #3 the ACC commish wouldn't talk about:

1.  Pac takes some Big 12 schools

2.  B$G goes big and brings in a Pacific Coast wing of 4-6 schools.

3.  B$G and $EC ravage the ACC.

[Texzilla58 4718]

With Texas and OU, the SEC can dictate the relationship with the NCAA. It can elevate above other conferences and be the premier organization for all college sports. It can become a 24 or 32 team league fairly simply by inviting those schools it wants.

The PAC12 has a number of schools that could woke themselves out of big time athletics; they will never have the fan devotion or support of southern or Midwest schools.

[TKthunder2 4981]

USC, Oregon, and Colorado have all had conversations about why the PAC12 isn’t working for them.  An easy way to limit their West Coast stigma is to reduce the number of West coast teams in power conferences.  Turn the negative into a positive.  Put USC/Oregon/Washington against Michigan/Ohio St/Penn St and you’ll be an asset for the FOX/BTN.

I expect the B1G to make a play, either to the West with some PAC schools or following up on their East Coast strategy they started when they grabbed Maryland.

[bullet 1596]

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/big-12-engaged-in-plans-to-split-into-two-seven-team-divisions-beginning-in-2023-amid-realignment/

Big 12 talking 2 seven team divisions in 2023.  So far, only BYU has announced they are coming in 2023.  UH, UC, UCF are still either 2023 or 2024.

Significance is this:

""...We're going to sort it all and figure out what the divisions look like and what the competition model will be and all that," said Stewart, a member of a working group addressing the situation. That group also includes West Virginia AD Keli Zen, TCU deputy AD Mike Sinquefield, Texas deputy AD Shawn Eichorst, Baylor AD Mack Rhoades and Kansas State AD Gene Taylor...."

Sounds like a 2022 move is off the table and we are a good ways from moving early.

[mdmost 42876]

That Alliance is really working out well

 

[Thiefery 4970]

On 1/18/2022 at 1:41 PM, bullet said:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/big-12-engaged-in-plans-to-split-into-two-seven-team-divisions-beginning-in-2023-amid-realignment/

Big 12 talking 2 seven team divisions in 2023.  So far, only BYU has announced they are coming in 2023.  UH, UC, UCF are still either 2023 or 2024.

Significance is this:

""...We're going to sort it all and figure out what the divisions look like and what the competition model will be and all that," said Stewart, a member of a working group addressing the situation. That group also includes West Virginia AD Keli Zen, TCU deputy AD Mike Sinquefield, Texas deputy AD Shawn Eichorst, Baylor AD Mack Rhoades and Kansas State AD Gene Taylor...."

Sounds like a 2022 move is off the table and we are a good ways from moving early.

still think we will begin play there for the '23 season

[BigHornedLurker 1897]

14 minutes ago, Thiefery said:

still think we will begin play there for the '23 season

agreed, seems like its too quiet. 

Texas & OU are working with the SEC on scheduling and burning out some clock, while letting the Big12 do its thing and stabilize. 

At some point over the next 6 months we announce we're leaving to play in SEC in 2023, lawyers across the country get into gear with various negotations. 

Texas & OU try to leverage stability, payouts, etc to negotiate a lower exit fee or just threaten to tie this shit up in legal forever or you can have $20M 

[bullet 1596]

2 hours ago, BigHornedLurker said:

agreed, seems like its too quiet. 

Texas & OU are working with the SEC on scheduling and burning out some clock, while letting the Big12 do its thing and stabilize. 

At some point over the next 6 months we announce we're leaving to play in SEC in 2023, lawyers across the country get into gear with various negotations. 

Texas & OU try to leverage stability, payouts, etc to negotiate a lower exit fee or just threaten to tie this shit up in legal forever or you can have $20M 

Think the negotiations are happening now.  The announcement is after a settlement.  But it clearly isn't close to being settled.

[camel at sea 589]

On 1/15/2022 at 5:17 PM, TKthunder2 said:

USC, Oregon, and Colorado have all had conversations about why the PAC12 isn’t working for them.  An easy way to limit their West Coast stigma is to reduce the number of West coast teams in power conferences.  Turn the negative into a positive.  Put USC/Oregon/Washington against Michigan/Ohio St/Penn St and you’ll be an asset for the FOX/BTN.

I expect the B1G to make a play, either to the West with some PAC schools or following up on their East Coast strategy they started when they grabbed Maryland.

B1G raiding the PAC makes the most sense.  The PAC is vulnerable before the ACC.  The PAC cannot expand east and become financially competitive.  So the only path forward for the west coast schools with some value is to leave the PAC.  

That said, it's hard to know who moves and how the politics of that play out.  I guess you'd have to leave PAC 5 + Kansas on the table as an option for "The Big 20" also. 

 

[bullet 1596]

CUSA fighting to delay until 2023.  Or at least until they get paid more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brett McMurphy

 

@Brett_McMurphy

 

James Madison, Marshall, ODU & Southern Miss “exploring possibility” of joining Sun Belt year early on July 1, sources told

@ActionNetworkHQ

. However, Conference USA said it "fully expects everyone to follow our bylaws & honor contractual obligations thru 2022-23 academic year"

 

2:52 PM · Jan 20, 2022·

[Gaffords 755]

22 hours ago, camel at sea said:

B1G raiding the PAC makes the most sense.  The PAC is vulnerable before the ACC.  The PAC cannot expand east and become financially competitive.  So the only path forward for the west coast schools with some value is to leave the PAC.  

That said, it's hard to know who moves and how the politics of that play out.  I guess you'd have to leave PAC 5 + Kansas on the table as an option for "The Big 20" also. 

 

Exactly. The Pac didn't stabilize just because of OU and UT going to the SEC. They haven't figured out how to bolster fan support.  They still are struggling getting into the playoffs. They are still bleeding their top recruits to other markets. 

These things don't help when it's time for them to start negotiating their new contract. To top it, we all know the Big 10 is not going to play second fiddle to anyone if they can help it, and adding Kansas +1 of the other left behinds isn't going to keep them in stride with the SEC, so they need ND or USC plus another bigger fish. 

It makes me wonder if the Big 12 didn't jump the gun with the 4 they responded with.  It might have been wiser to wait until the Pac opened negotiations to see how it goes and to see if the Big 10 makes a move on the Pac.  They could've found themselves in position to absorb or merge with practically the entire remaining PAC teams.

[Herpa Derpa 6116]

On 1/18/2022 at 2:41 PM, bullet said:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/big-12-engaged-in-plans-to-split-into-two-seven-team-divisions-beginning-in-2023-amid-realignment/

Big 12 talking 2 seven team divisions in 2023.  So far, only BYU has announced they are coming in 2023.  UH, UC, UCF are still either 2023 or 2024.

Significance is this:

""...We're going to sort it all and figure out what the divisions look like and what the competition model will be and all that," said Stewart, a member of a working group addressing the situation. That group also includes West Virginia AD Keli Zen, TCU deputy AD Mike Sinquefield, Texas deputy AD Shawn Eichorst, Baylor AD Mack Rhoades and Kansas State AD Gene Taylor...."

Sounds like a 2022 move is off the table and we are a good ways from moving early.

Disagree We sent the deputy cuz we ain't planning on sticking around much longer for their nonsense.

"Oh, a big confab to plan the future beginning in 2023? I've got just the guy to represent my interests"

 

CDC ain't wasting his time.

[LTtxfan 49015]

Best thread for this I could find...

[TKthunder2 4981]

4 hours ago, Gaffords said:

Exactly. The Pac didn't stabilize just because of OU and UT going to the SEC. They haven't figured out how to bolster fan support.  They still are struggling getting into the playoffs. They are still bleeding their top recruits to other markets. 

These things don't help when it's time for them to start negotiating their new contract. To top it, we all know the Big 10 is not going to play second fiddle to anyone if they can help it, and adding Kansas +1 of the other left behinds isn't going to keep them in stride with the SEC, so they need ND or USC plus another bigger fish. 

It makes me wonder if the Big 12 didn't jump the gun with the 4 they responded with.  It might have been wiser to wait until the Pac opened negotiations to see how it goes and to see if the Big 10 makes a move on the Pac.  They could've found themselves in position to absorb or merge with practically the entire remaining PAC teams.

Yep

USC (private), Oregon (not tied to OSU), and Colorado (solo) have all basically said they want out.  The Big Ten could easily pickup those 3 and Kansas and go to 18.

That would force the remaining 9 in the PAC to make up their mind.

Stanford seems to enjoy big time college athletics but not crazy about this new world of big money and NIL.

UCLA wants out but is tied to Cal and they reportedly (like Stanford) don’t at this time.

Washington may want out (and would be highly desirable) but reportedly is legally required to be in a conference with WSU.

Similar laws tie Arizona and ASU but the Big Ten likely wouldn’t want both.

Utah would be the last pick.

The non AAU “state” schools (WSU, OSU, ASU) have almost no chance though ASU might be the exception to the rule (they have good athletics and hockey).

18 isn’t a great number but it may take some time to decouple a few of these other schools so that they can move freely.  20 (likely best pair would be Washington and UCLA) or 24 (all the AAUs) would be ideal and the Big Ten can still pretend to care about academics while forcing the PAC to abandon their weakest athletic schools.

Become the Rose Bowl League with a Big Ten Conference of 10-12 schools and a Pacific/West Conference of the PAC schools plus Kansas, Nebraska, and Iowa.

Both conferences have a CCG and the champs play in the Rose Bowl.  They’ll try to then force the Rose Bowl winner into the National Championship Game using the plus one model opposite the SEC/ACC.

[bullet 1596]

On 1/20/2022 at 10:00 PM, LTtxfan said:

Best thread for this I could find...

Interesting who is on the committee this article mentioned.https://web1.ncaa.org/committees/committees_roster.jsp?CommitteeName=1TRANSFCOM

14 FBS (3 SEC, 2 Big 12, 2 Big 10, 1 from other 7), 2 FCS (Ivy and MEAC), 5 other (2 BE, 1 WCC, 1 MVC, 1 Summitt).

[bullet 1596]

On 1/20/2022 at 10:00 PM, LTtxfan said:

Best thread for this I could find...

Notable that Bowlsby (he's not alone) is very much for reducing Division I.  Good read.

[PhillyD 1257]

On 1/20/2022 at 10:00 PM, LTtxfan said:

Best thread for this I could find...

This article confirms my long held belief that there needs to be a power 5 breakaway but in football only.  Traditional (or maybe even older or hybrid) conferences are still needed for basketball and all of the olympic sports.  This would keep the NCAA basketball tournament (and revenue drove for the NCAA intact) and hold travel and other expenses down.  Football could then be regulated at whatever level your school is playing on.  It might even allow for the growth of sports that aren't named football.

I don't know exactly how it could happen, but I'm sure some smart people could get together and make it happen with more money to go around for everyone.

Edited January 23, 2022 by PhillyD

[bullet 1596]

5 hours ago, PhillyD said:

This article confirms my long held belief that there needs to be a power 5 breakaway but in football only.  Traditional (or maybe even older or hybrid) conferences are still needed for basketball and all of the olympic sports.  This would keep the NCAA basketball tournament (and revenue drove for the NCAA intact) and hold travel and other expenses down.  Football could then be regulated at whatever level your school is playing on.  It might even allow for the growth of sports that aren't named football.

I don't know exactly how it could happen, but I'm sure some smart people could get together and make it happen with more money to go around for everyone.

The P5 have most of what they want in football.  Its basketball where they are handcuffed by a bunch of small schools trying to get NCAA basketball money.

[TKthunder2 4981]

53 minutes ago, bullet said:

The P5 have most of what they want in football.  Its basketball where they are handcuffed by a bunch of small schools trying to get NCAA basketball money.

It’s not just basketball.  It is completely stupid that baseball doesn’t have full scholarships.  They split 13 between 27 people.  These rules are dumb and anyone that says Power 5 schools shouldn’t give full rides to athletes has an agenda.

We don’t need nearly 400 division I schools in the basketball tournament.  Take the FBS conferences and form a new all sports (other than football) division and set the new rules.  Some conferences like the Big East or A10 can then join but not everyone will be financially able to keep up when all sports are fully funded and the roster sizes and scholarships limits are increased.

[Hurtlocker 2208]

On 1/20/2022 at 10:00 PM, LTtxfan said:

Best thread for this I could find...

Late to the reply, but was listening to SXM's college station after the ACC Commish's comments, and they talked for like 20 minutes that the entire reason the ACC said they're out of expanding the playoffs before the contract ends, is because they wanted to force concessions within this transformation framework before they handed any more money away (from the P5).

It wouldn't shock me if you saw 80 break away fully, taking all the championships, and institute some sort of revenue sharing to boost competitive equity (tied to fielding sports, athlete support, etc) and avoid anti-trust.

 

[bullet 1596]

We still aren't in the SEC, but the fallout continues:

Colonial, which lost James Madison to Sun Belt adds Monmouth, Stony Brook and Hampton from MAAC, America East and Big South.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/33144929/colonial-athletic-association-adding-hampton-monmouth-stony-brook-conference?device=featurephone

Missouri Valley, which lost Loyola Chicago to Big East, will add Illinois-Chicago from the Horizon League officially tomorrow.  They already added Murray St. and Belmont from the Ohio Valley Conference.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/uic-to-join-missouri-valley-conference-in-july-rounding-out-leagues-expansion-effort-at-12-teams/

And playoff expansion is still stalled as the alliance continues to throw temper tantrums about our move.

 

[bullet 1596]

Everybody seems to want to be at 12 or 14 teams, perhaps to protect themselves from future raids.  There are 32 conferences set up as below this year, but many of the conferences below 12 are getting bigger.

15 teams-1 conference

14 teams-4 conferences

13-1

12-7

11-6

10-10

9-0

8-3 (Ivy and the struggling to survive Southland Conference and MEAC.

['stache 21778]

22 minutes ago, bullet said:

We still aren't in the SEC, but the fallout continues:

Colonial, which lost James Madison to Sun Belt adds Monmouth, Stony Brook and Hampton from MAAC, America East and Big South.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/33144929/colonial-athletic-association-adding-hampton-monmouth-stony-brook-conference?device=featurephone

Missouri Valley, which lost Loyola Chicago to Big East, will add Illinois-Chicago from the Horizon League officially tomorrow.  They already added Murray St. and Belmont from the Ohio Valley Conference.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/uic-to-join-missouri-valley-conference-in-july-rounding-out-leagues-expansion-effort-at-12-teams/

And playoff expansion is still stalled as the alliance continues to throw temper tantrums about our move.

 

Are these lower level moves geography based or is there a heirarchy going on? I honestly can't tell when you get past the fcs leagues.

[TKthunder2 4981]

6 hours ago, 'stache said:

Are these lower level moves geography based or is there a heirarchy going on? I honestly can't tell when you get past the fcs leagues.

Both

Sun Belt added James Madison from the Colonial Athletics Association (CAA)

CAA had 5 FCS football playing members plus 7 associates for 12 total.  Of those 7, 4 were from the American East (a lesser conference) who could have taken over sponsorship of the football league.  So they invited Stoney Brook (from AE) and two other FCS football playing schools in Hampton and Monmouth to secure their sponsorship.

Now they also sponsor men lacrosse and only have 4 full conference members and 2 associates.  All 3 additions just so happen to sponsor lacrosse which I’m sure was a selling point.

There is also a rumor that the Southern Conference (SoCon) is looking to expand (10 full members, 9 that play FCS) and might be interested in some/all of the CAA’s 3 Carolina schools (Elon, UNCW, Charleston) and William & Mary in VA since the CAA’s geographic center has shifted to be more Northern.  The CAA was also kicking the tires on Howard, Fairfield, and Albany as expansion candidates so they would likely be the backfill if that were to happen.

The Atlantic 10, is second only to the Big East as a non football conference.  They snagged Loyola (Chicago) from the Missouri Valley Conference (MVC) in preparation to possible Big East expansion to 12 (currently at 11 since they added UConn) where they likely will lose at least one member (my money is on St Louis).  If they don’t lose anyone this put them at 15 which doesn’t make sense.

Regardless, the MVC was a solid tight knit conference in only 4 states (MO, IA, IL, IN).  They decided to jump into Western Kentucky/Tennessee and grab Belmont and Murray State (both from the Ohio Valley Conference) and the backfill losing their anchor in Chicago with another in University of Illinois-Chicago (from the Horizon Conference).  This will put them at 12 full members.

The Horizon has enough members so may not expand but the Ohio Valley is now down to 7, so they’ll likely need some more and the top candidate appears to be Southern Indiana from DII or Western Illinois (currently in the Summit League but plays football in the MVFC which is far better than the OVC in the FCS so that might be an issue).

And just FYI none of these moves had anything to do with Texas/Oklahoma moving to the SEC.

[bullet 1596]

On 1/26/2022 at 12:23 AM, TKthunder2 said:

Both

Sun Belt added James Madison from the Colonial Athletics Association (CAA)

CAA had 5 FCS football playing members plus 7 associates for 12 total.  Of those 7, 4 were from the American East (a lesser conference) who could have taken over sponsorship of the football league.  So they invited Stoney Brook (from AE) and two other FCS football playing schools in Hampton and Monmouth to secure their sponsorship.

Now they also sponsor men lacrosse and only have 4 full conference members and 2 associates.  All 3 additions just so happen to sponsor lacrosse which I’m sure was a selling point.

There is also a rumor that the Southern Conference (SoCon) is looking to expand (10 full members, 9 that play FCS) and might be interested in some/all of the CAA’s 3 Carolina schools (Elon, UNCW, Charleston) and William & Mary in VA since the CAA’s geographic center has shifted to be more Northern.  The CAA was also kicking the tires on Howard, Fairfield, and Albany as expansion candidates so they would likely be the backfill if that were to happen.

The Atlantic 10, is second only to the Big East as a non football conference.  They snagged Loyola (Chicago) from the Missouri Valley Conference (MVC) in preparation to possible Big East expansion to 12 (currently at 11 since they added UConn) where they likely will lose at least one member (my money is on St Louis).  If they don’t lose anyone this put them at 15 which doesn’t make sense.

Regardless, the MVC was a solid tight knit conference in only 4 states (MO, IA, IL, IN).  They decided to jump into Western Kentucky/Tennessee and grab Belmont and Murray State (both from the Ohio Valley Conference) and the backfill losing their anchor in Chicago with another in University of Illinois-Chicago (from the Horizon Conference).  This will put them at 12 full members.

The Horizon has enough members so may not expand but the Ohio Valley is now down to 7, so they’ll likely need some more and the top candidate appears to be Southern Indiana from DII or Western Illinois (currently in the Summit League but plays football in the MVFC which is far better than the OVC in the FCS so that might be an issue).

And just FYI none of these moves had anything to do with Texas/Oklahoma moving to the SEC.

Texas/OU to the SEC.

BYU, Cincinnati, UCF, Houston (latter 3 from AAC) to Big 12.

Rice, UNT, UAB, FAU, UNCC, UTSA from CUSA to AAC.

James Madison from CAA, ODU, USM skip sinking CUSA to Sun Belt.

Stony Brook, Monmouth and Hampton to CAA to fill James Madison's shoes.

All of those moves are pretty much directly related to Texas/OU to the SEC.

The Atlantic 10-Missouri Valley-Ohio Valley/Horizon is indirectly related as its triggered by everyone getting bigger.

[bullet 1596]

The CUSA backfilled (due ultimately to SEC expansion) with New Mexico St. and Sam Houston from the WAC, Liberty and Jacksonville St. from the Atlantic Sun.  The WAC has backfilled with Southern Utah from the Big Sky (already coming), UTA from the Sun Belt and Incarnate Word from the Southland Conference.  Southland has added Texas A&M Commerce from Division II.  Ohio Valley and Atlantic Sun are still scrounging around looking for new members.  Southland is also trying to replace those it already lost to the WAC.

[TKthunder2 4981]

1 hour ago, bullet said:

Texas/OU to the SEC.

BYU, Cincinnati, UCF, Houston (latter 3 from AAC) to Big 12.

Rice, UNT, UAB, FAU, UNCC, UTSA from CUSA to AAC.

James Madison from CAA, ODU, USM skip sinking CUSA to Sun Belt.

Stony Brook, Monmouth and Hampton to CAA to fill James Madison's shoes.

All of those moves are pretty much directly related to Texas/OU to the SEC.

The Atlantic 10-Missouri Valley-Ohio Valley/Horizon is indirectly related as its triggered by everyone getting bigger.

Sun Belt wasn’t affect by Texas/OU.  They had 10 and added more because they wanted to.  Before Texas/OU was a thing there were already rumors about the Sun Belt expanding with Marshall and Southern Miss.  The Sun Belt could have stopped there but they added James Madison and Old Dominion to go to 14.  They didn’t NEED to go to 12 or 14 and nothing about Texas/OU forced them.  The Sun Belt started its own expansion dominoes separately of what occurred between the Big 12/SEC.

You can blame the Southland raiding the DII Lone Star Conference for TAMU-Commerce on Texas/OU (in addition to the WAC, CUSA, AAC, Big12) but the CAA is on the Sun Belt and them alone.

The A10/MVC movement is all fear based related to UConn in the Big East giving them an uneven 11 members, not Texas/OU.

['stache 21778]

3 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

Sun Belt wasn’t affect by Texas/OU.  They had 10 and added more because they wanted to.  Before Texas/OU was a thing there were already rumors about the Sun Belt expanding with Marshall and Southern Miss.  The Sun Belt could have stopped there but they added James Madison and Old Dominion to go to 14.  They didn’t NEED to go to 12 or 14 and nothing about Texas/OU forced them.  The Sun Belt started its own expansion dominoes separately of what occurred between the Big 12/SEC.

You can blame the Southland raiding the DII Lone Star Conference for TAMU-Commerce on Texas/OU (in addition to the WAC, CUSA, AAC, Big12) but the CAA is on the Sun Belt and them alone.

The A10/MVC movement is all fear based related to UConn in the Big East giving them an uneven 11 members, not Texas/OU.

CUSA was considered higher on the prestige chain than Sunbelt until the Big XII raided AAC, which then raided CUSA. The left behinds were then clearly behind the Sunbelt, which did a raid of its own. Every round of realignment starts with a few big moves. OU and Texas' move precipitated 90%+ of what's going on now. It's not a bad thing to admit or acknowledge that, it is what it is.

[Mittens 8182]

2 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

Sun Belt wasn’t affect by Texas/OU.  They had 10 and added more because they wanted to.  Before Texas/OU was a thing there were already rumors about the Sun Belt expanding with Marshall and Southern Miss.  The Sun Belt could have stopped there but they added James Madison and Old Dominion to go to 14.  They didn’t NEED to go to 12 or 14 and nothing about Texas/OU forced them.  The Sun Belt started its own expansion dominoes separately of what occurred between the Big 12/SEC.

Not even close to accurate.  The Sun Belt was forced to be proactive or have its top teams picked off by CUSA after CUSA had been pillaged by the AAC.  They had to expand to solidify and protect themselves.  Without UT and OU going to the SEC, the SBC stands pat at 10.

[TKthunder2 4981]

3 hours ago, 'stache said:

CUSA was considered higher on the prestige chain than Sunbelt until the Big XII raided AAC, which then raided CUSA. The left behinds were then clearly behind the Sunbelt, which did a raid of its own. Every round of realignment starts with a few big moves. OU and Texas' move precipitated 90%+ of what's going on now. It's not a bad thing to admit or acknowledge that, it is what it is.

 

3 hours ago, Mittens said:

Not even close to accurate.  The Sun Belt was forced to be proactive or have its top teams picked off by CUSA after CUSA had been pillaged by the AAC.  They had to expand to solidify and protect themselves.  Without UT and OU going to the SEC, the SBC stands pat at 10.

Both of you are incorrect.  I follow this very closely.  Previously CUSA was better than the Sun Belt but over the last few years with their new ESPN contract the Sun Belt became far more desirable.  I stated this on this very thread BEFORE anything happened with CUSA but they had been surpassed and it was very obvious.  The Sun Belt made more money and was a better athletic conference in every metric despite CUSA having more big markets.  Again the Sun Belt had been talking with Southern Miss BEFORE Texas/OU made their move.

[ButtFumble 5161]

On 1/20/2022 at 6:30 PM, Gaffords said:

Exactly. The Pac didn't stabilize just because of OU and UT going to the SEC. They haven't figured out how to bolster fan support.  They still are struggling getting into the playoffs. They are still bleeding their top recruits to other markets. 

These things don't help when it's time for them to start negotiating their new contract. To top it, we all know the Big 10 is not going to play second fiddle to anyone if they can help it, and adding Kansas +1 of the other left behinds isn't going to keep them in stride with the SEC, so they need ND or USC plus another bigger fish. 

It makes me wonder if the Big 12 didn't jump the gun with the 4 they responded with.  It might have been wiser to wait until the Pac opened negotiations to see how it goes and to see if the Big 10 makes a move on the Pac.  They could've found themselves in position to absorb or merge with practically the entire remaining PAC teams.

the Big 12 fucked up badly and jumped the gun way too early.....adding UH was the worst of the decisions because 4 teams in Texas in a single conference is way too many

and I believe there will probably be quality PAC 12 or ACC (or both) teams available......and most of all it is not like those AAC teams were not going to be available in the future if the Big 12 wanted them or felt they "needed" them

 

On 1/19/2022 at 2:40 PM, BigHornedLurker said:

agreed, seems like its too quiet. 

Texas & OU are working with the SEC on scheduling and burning out some clock, while letting the Big12 do its thing and stabilize. 

At some point over the next 6 months we announce we're leaving to play in SEC in 2023, lawyers across the country get into gear with various negotations. 

Texas & OU try to leverage stability, payouts, etc to negotiate a lower exit fee or just threaten to tie this shit up in legal forever or you can have $20M 

 

it will be well over $20 million it will be at least $46 to $48 million simply because the Big 12 will be holding the final year of distributions prior to any year that Texas and ou leave.....there is no chance that Texas or ou will try and sue the Big 12 to claim any of those held distributions

I would not be surprised if it is not closer to $80 million simply because a much larger number than that was talked about for Texas already having commitments to fund to leave the Big 12 and because it is pretty clear thanks to the idiot commissioner of the AAC that there was collusion with ESPN to harm the Big 12.....if that can be proven for ESPN and the SEC SEC SEC no one YET knows, but I think Bowlsby has that evidence for ESPN and the AAC and ESPN is not wanting that drug into court and I do not think that ESPN, Texas, OU and, the SEC SEC SEC want that drug into court

and there is also the fact that Texas and ou clearly violated the 12 hour notification clause in the Big 12 contract for conference membership that required notification to the conference of ANY contact by anyone to leave the Big 12 and a letter declining the interest to do so.....and Texas and ou both were a part of discussions with ESPN and Fox (and possibly others) about the conference extending their TV contract or negotiation a new one early and Texas and ou made votes on conference business related to that while knowing full well they had one foot out the door.........Texas is looking to PAY to GTFO they are not looking to go to court and if ou can remotely come up with the money they will want the same 

 

[Gaffords 755]

2 hours ago, ButtFumble said:

the Big 12 fucked up badly and jumped the gun way too early.....adding UH was the worst of the decisions because 4 teams in Texas in a single conference is way too many

and I believe there will probably be quality PAC 12 or ACC (or both) teams available......and most of all it is not like those AAC teams were not going to be available in the future if the Big 12 wanted them or felt they "needed" them

 

 

it will be well over $20 million it will be at least $46 to $48 million simply because the Big 12 will be holding the final year of distributions prior to any year that Texas and ou leave.....there is no chance that Texas or ou will try and sue the Big 12 to claim any of those held distributions

I would not be surprised if it is not closer to $80 million simply because a much larger number than that was talked about for Texas already having commitments to fund to leave the Big 12 and because it is pretty clear thanks to the idiot commissioner of the AAC that there was collusion with ESPN to harm the Big 12.....if that can be proven for ESPN and the SEC SEC SEC no one YET knows, but I think Bowlsby has that evidence for ESPN and the AAC and ESPN is not wanting that drug into court and I do not think that ESPN, Texas, OU and, the SEC SEC SEC want that drug into court

and there is also the fact that Texas and ou clearly violated the 12 hour notification clause in the Big 12 contract for conference membership that required notification to the conference of ANY contact by anyone to leave the Big 12 and a letter declining the interest to do so.....and Texas and ou both were a part of discussions with ESPN and Fox (and possibly others) about the conference extending their TV contract or negotiation a new one early and Texas and ou made votes on conference business related to that while knowing full well they had one foot out the door.........Texas is looking to PAY to GTFO they are not looking to go to court and if ou can remotely come up with the money they will want the same 

 

I agree. Adding Houston was dumb as it gets.  Dumber yet is that the former SWC members know (or should know) that being so regionalized was one of the biggest death blows to the SWC. 

Lack of National interest outside of UT, which saw plenty of it's games getting bumped to regional coverage.Especially when playing 1-4 Baylor or 2-3 TCU or 0-5 Owls. SMU getting its pony shot in the head, aggy on National TV and Bowl ban for major violations. (if I remember right, there were a couple of other members on minor probation also the last few years of the SWC). All this added together had the SWC falling way behind the other conferences in National media $s and more and more Texas talent was leaving the state to go play somewhere they would get more National exposure (key back then if hoping for the NFL as a late rounder)...   The same issues (non cheating) that plagued the SWC yesterday are the same issues that has UT and OU leaving today.

I would've added Arkansas bailing for greener pastures as another nail for the SWC, but in fairness, they only left when they did as political cover for Texas and aggy, who had every intention of following them into the SEC 2 years later. "We tried, but an all Texas conference isn't feasible, so it's every man for himself".

But something went wrong between the SEC 'wigs and the Texas two (mainly UT-Deloss). I've never been able to pin down exactly what took place, but whatever happened was bad enough, it took over 2 decades of leadership changes within UT (and for the mouse to spit shine the SEC enough to make it too enticing not to give it a go) before there was a snowball's chance in hell of us joining the SEC. 

Things should start to get interesting sometime next year. We should start to hear if Amazon, Google, Netflix, AT&T... Are going to make a move or not.  And the Pac negotiations should be starting towards summer's end 2023. This Pac negotiation round has a good chance of setting off the powder keg for real.  

[camel at sea 589]

The Big 12 4.0 (5.0?) is going to be fine with Houston.  They won't be too regional b/c the league is going to stretch north through Iowa and then east to Ohio and West Virginia, with yet more flags in Florida and Utah.  They needed to add the best available programs and I think Houston was undoubtedly one of the best four available.  Winning games is how the Big 12 will develop national interest.  Keeping a toehold in Houston will be important for them, too.  

Honestly the Big 12 West will be a lot of fun to watch.  That whole division will have a cats in a sack dynamic which will be pretty fun. 

West:  BYU, Tech, TCU, Baylor, Houston, OK State  ---> That's going to be pretty even and highly competitive.     

[Mittens 8182]

17 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

Previously CUSA was better than the Sun Belt but over the last few years with their new ESPN contract the Sun Belt became far more desirable.

True.

17 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

The Sun Belt made more money and was a better athletic conference in every metric despite CUSA having more big markets.  

True.

17 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

Again the Sun Belt had been talking with Southern Miss BEFORE Texas/OU made their move.

True-ish.  There was some flirting, but there was nothing close to an invitation/defection.  The SBC wasn't going to add an 11th team and not have a 12th.

17 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

I follow this very closely. 

Oh, well then by all means, you must be correct.  Certainly no one else might be a little more closely connected to any of the schools involved here, or the people in those conferences that are actually making the decisions.  

17 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

Both of you are incorrect. 

lolno. It is humorous how you take several true statements, but ignore others, and come to your own conclusion that isn't based in reality. 

The premise that multiple conferences and many teams underwent significant realignment completely unrelated to, and only coincidentally in the same couple of months as, a seismic shift at the top of the food chain, is preposterously idiotic.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Mittens

[bullet 1596]

On 1/27/2022 at 8:52 PM, TKthunder2 said:

 

Both of you are incorrect.  I follow this very closely.  Previously CUSA was better than the Sun Belt but over the last few years with their new ESPN contract the Sun Belt became far more desirable.  I stated this on this very thread BEFORE anything happened with CUSA but they had been surpassed and it was very obvious.  The Sun Belt made more money and was a better athletic conference in every metric despite CUSA having more big markets.  Again the Sun Belt had been talking with Southern Miss BEFORE Texas/OU made their move.

The Sun Belt had become better in football.  They were still no match for CUSA other than football.  They have better coverage than CUSA, but money was basically even.  Sun Belt does have a contract just signed, but nobody knows what it is.  Fanboys say its almost as big as AAC, but nobody knowledgeable believes that as there is absolutely no evidence.  Mostly likely its merely at the MAC level.

But with CUSA defections, that changed the calculus.

[bullet 1596]

21 hours ago, Gaffords said:

I agree. Adding Houston was dumb as it gets.  Dumber yet is that the former SWC members know (or should know) that being so regionalized was one of the biggest death blows to the SWC. 

Lack of National interest outside of UT, which saw plenty of it's games getting bumped to regional coverage.Especially when playing 1-4 Baylor or 2-3 TCU or 0-5 Owls. SMU getting its pony shot in the head, aggy on National TV and Bowl ban for major violations. (if I remember right, there were a couple of other members on minor probation also the last few years of the SWC). All this added together had the SWC falling way behind the other conferences in National media $s and more and more Texas talent was leaving the state to go play somewhere they would get more National exposure (key back then if hoping for the NFL as a late rounder)...   The same issues (non cheating) that plagued the SWC yesterday are the same issues that has UT and OU leaving today.

I would've added Arkansas bailing for greener pastures as another nail for the SWC, but in fairness, they only left when they did as political cover for Texas and aggy, who had every intention of following them into the SEC 2 years later. "We tried, but an all Texas conference isn't feasible, so it's every man for himself".

But something went wrong between the SEC 'wigs and the Texas two (mainly UT-Deloss). I've never been able to pin down exactly what took place, but whatever happened was bad enough, it took over 2 decades of leadership changes within UT (and for the mouse to spit shine the SEC enough to make it too enticing not to give it a go) before there was a snowball's chance in hell of us joining the SEC. 

Things should start to get interesting sometime next year. We should start to hear if Amazon, Google, Netflix, AT&T... Are going to make a move or not.  And the Pac negotiations should be starting towards summer's end 2023. This Pac negotiation round has a good chance of setting off the powder keg for real.  

Texas was not interested in the SEC.  The plan in 1989 was for A&M to go to the SEC and Texas to go to the Pac.  SEC and Pac agreed to keep the UT-A&M game on Thanksgiving.  But at the last minute Stanford vetoed Texas.  President Cunningham wrote about it in his book.  Immediately after Texas and Texas A&M recommitted, Arkansas made official their move to the SEC.

[bullet 1596]

9 hours ago, camel at sea said:

The Big 12 4.0 (5.0?) is going to be fine with Houston.  They won't be too regional b/c the league is going to stretch north through Iowa and then east to Ohio and West Virginia, with yet more flags in Florida and Utah.  They needed to add the best available programs and I think Houston was undoubtedly one of the best four available.  Winning games is how the Big 12 will develop national interest.  Keeping a toehold in Houston will be important for them, too.  

Honestly the Big 12 West will be a lot of fun to watch.  That whole division will have a cats in a sack dynamic which will be pretty fun. 

West:  BYU, Tech, TCU, Baylor, Houston, OK State  ---> That's going to be pretty even and highly competitive.     

Texas is a big state.  TCU and Tech might as well be in another state for the influence they have in Houston.  Baylor has some alums, but not enough.  Houston was essential for the Big 12 unless it wanted to become invisible in SE Texas.  After BYU, they were the no-brainer.

[Gaffords 755]

7 hours ago, bullet said:

Texas was not interested in the SEC.  The plan in 1989 was for A&M to go to the SEC and Texas to go to the Pac.  SEC and Pac agreed to keep the UT-A&M game on Thanksgiving.  But at the last minute Stanford vetoed Texas.  President Cunningham wrote about it in his book.  Immediately after Texas and Texas A&M recommitted, Arkansas made official their move to the SEC.

Not quite... From wiki.  But with a little effort searching online, the articles from that time can sti

Arkansas athletic director Frank Broyles, who played at Georgia Tech when the Yellow Jackets competed in the SEC, said that he was encouraged to leave by UT's and Texas A&M's leaders, because it would destabilize the conference, allowing them to do the same. The leaderships at UT and Texas A&M believed they would never be allowed to leave first.[9] (In the summer of 1990, word would leak of Texas and Texas A&M thinking of following Arkansas into the SEC. Reaction in Texas would be very negative, with politicians threatening both schools' funding before the idea was tabled

In the early 1990s, Texas had discussions with the Pac-10, a conference with similar academic views. An affiliation with the Pac-10 appealed to UT leaders. Former UT president Robert Berdahl told Mark Wagrin of the San Antonio Express-News: “Texas wanted desperately the academic patina that the Pac 10 yielded... To be associated with UCLA, Stanford and Cal in academics was very desirable.” [9] The Pac-10 wanted to add UT and the University of Colorado. For some reason, an offer didn't come until after the formation of the Big 12.[13]

Some reports state that Stanford refused to vote to admit UT in an effort to protect the Cardinal's conference dominance in non-revenue sports.^[9] (The Pac-10 required unanimous votes for expansion.)

(At the end of 1994, UT's athletic director DeLoss Dodds, as he was turning down the Pac-10, stated that the Pac-10 leadership informed UT they would have a standing invitation for the Longhorns. What is unclear is when the Pac-10 made that offer, although Dodds did use the word "always" in describing the offer.)^[14]

One report stated that the offer was changed to UT and Texas A&M. UT reportedly tried to carry Texas A&M with them into the Pac-10.^[10] No evidence confirms Pac-10 support for that idea. This change allegedly upset the leadership at Colorado and drove them to take a more active role in protecting the Big Eight. (Colorado's Chancellor James Corbridge was also the Big Eight chairman. He was very involved with the TV negotiations for the new conference and the integration of the Texas schools.^[15])

UT then approached the Big Ten, but was turned down, because the conference had recently instituted a moratorium on expansion.^[9]

Texas then turned to the SEC, and negotiations reached an advanced stage. UT abruptly withdrew after concluding that the SEC had no interest in strengthening academics. Berdahl said, “We were quite interested in raising academic standards... And the Southeastern Conference had absolutely no interest in that.”^[9]

Texas A&M had flirted with the SEC since the late 1980s. In 1993, it had approached the conference about joining, partnered with the University of Houston. UT had given up on the SEC and Texas A&M's leadership didn't want to try leaving the SWC on their own. The SEC moved expansion plans to the back burner.

 

[Texzilla58 4718]

Texas was not interested in the SEC.  The plan in 1989 was for A&M to go to the SEC and Texas to go to the Pac.  SEC and Pac agreed to keep the UT-A&M game on Thanksgiving.  But at the last minute Stanford vetoed Texas.  President Cunningham wrote about it in his book.  Immediately after Texas and Texas A&M recommitted, Arkansas made official their move to the SEC.

This is incorrect. Ann Richards and Bob Bullick put an end to Texas and A&M leaving to the SEC with Arkansas. The presidents were summoned to Austin to kibosh it unless they could drag Baylor and Tech with them. Frank Broyles and Daryl Royal were the architects of the plan. Miami was coming in as well. The Texas to PAC talk started a year or two later, mostly from Texas, not the PAC. With the Texas schools out Miami bailed as well.

[iamjethro 81]

I had always heard it as Royal and Broyles were keen on the move and A&M was ready to go also.  The SWC was fading in power and viability. The SEC would also look to the east.  But, due to the issues that came up with the Texas schools getting free and FSU wanting no part of the SEC schedule, independent South Carolina was eager to take the 12th slot making the SEC eligible for a championship game.

[trza-hawk 269]

Any update from TheDudeWV or any of the other guys who have been discussing realignment for ten years now?

[bullet 1596]

On 1/29/2022 at 8:43 AM, Texzilla58 said:

This is incorrect. Ann Richards and Bob Bullick put an end to Texas and A&M leaving to the SEC with Arkansas. The presidents were summoned to Austin to kibosh it unless they could drag Baylor and Tech with them. Frank Broyles and Daryl Royal were the architects of the plan. Miami was coming in as well. The Texas to PAC talk started a year or two later, mostly from Texas, not the PAC. With the Texas schools out Miami bailed as well.

You're confusing 1994 with 1990 (and I said 1989 when it was 1990).  And Ann Richards had nothing to do with it.  It was Bullock and other Tech/Baylor people in the legislature.  Dodds was AD by then and DKR had no influence on those decisions.

To quote Bill Cunningham, president at the time, in his book ("The Texas Way"), "Dodds and I briefed the UT System regents at a board meeting in August 1990 in Odessa, and they gave me an informal nod to proceed with the Pac 10."  Texas, A&M and Arkansas were all planning moves.  Arkansas officially accepted the SEC invitation on 8/1/1990, so it was before Texas changed their mind, but after Texas was planning to leave as well.

The UGA president did approach Cunningham about the SEC in the summer of 1989.  That was when Texas started looking at its other options and Cunningham said he really had no interest in the SEC, but they certainly talked about it.

 

[billfromlaketravis 11367]

On 1/28/2022 at 9:51 PM, bullet said:

Texas is a big state.  TCU and Tech might as well be in another state for the influence they have in Houston.  Baylor has some alums, but not enough.  Houston was essential for the Big 12 unless it wanted to become invisible in SE Texas.  After BYU, they were the no-brainer.

 I like ya bullet, but this simply isn't true. U of H is invisible in SE Texas. Check out those attendance and TV numbers. 

The Big 12 added U of H because they needed a respectable P5 warm body that's a geographic fit. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by billfromlaketravis

[bullet 1596]

2 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

 I like ya bullet, but this simply isn't true. U of H is invisible in SE Texas. Check out those attendance and TV numbers. 

The Big 12 added U of H because they needed a respectable P5 warm body that's a geographic fit. 

When Houston is good, they have really good TV numbers in Houston.  Back in 2007-2009 the Chronicle used to have the local TV ratings.  At that time Texas was through the roof, but Houston, even in CUSA, was competitive for 2nd with A&M.  Go to the local sporting goods stores.  Texas and Texas A&M have the largest sections, but Houston is 3rd and nobody else is even close.  Its really hard to find TCU or Texas Tech merchandise.  You do see some Baylor along with LSU and Rice.

UH has a lot of fair weather fans, much like Miami and UCLA.  When they are good, they are very visible.  Local media covers them.  TCU, Tech and Baylor might as well be Kansas St. or Illinois for the coverage they get.  If you haven't lived in Houston, you wouldn't understand that, as UH is pretty invisible in Austin and Dallas.

[billfromlaketravis 11367]

9 minutes ago, bullet said:

When Houston is good, they have really good TV numbers in Houston.  Back in 2007-2009 the Chronicle used to have the local TV ratings.  At that time Texas was through the roof, but Houston, even in CUSA, was competitive for 2nd with A&M.  Go to the local sporting goods stores.  Texas and Texas A&M have the largest sections, but Houston is 3rd and nobody else is even close.  Its really hard to find TCU or Texas Tech merchandise.  You do see some Baylor along with LSU and Rice.

UH has a lot of fair weather fans, much like Miami and UCLA.  When they are good, they are very visible.  Local media covers them.  TCU, Tech and Baylor might as well be Kansas St. or Illinois for the coverage they get.  If you haven't lived in Houston, you wouldn't understand that, as UH is pretty invisible in Austin and Dallas.

I'll try to be nice here. My Houston bona-fides are pretty well established. I've lived here a long time. 

U of H just doesn't matter. It's a pro sports town with a lot of UT and Aggy fans.