Realignment talk not going away

[bullet 1609]

40 minutes ago, USC Traveler said:

Reduce travel costs for schools making a fraction of the tv money that the BIG and SEC make.

Nobody is doing divisions but the Sun Belt.  You want the best team to compete for that single G slot.

[bullet 1609]

38 minutes ago, petscii said:

R E L E G A T I O N  is the next logical step.

the second one looks better in binary for 2.   

Just get rid of the stupid number!!!!

Why look stupid like the Big 12, Big 10 and Atlantic 10?

SEC and ACC are good enough without numbers.

Fact is that if this deal doesn't blow up like the Boise St./SDSU to AAC deal, the numbers will change over time.

Its not like the number has a lot of history.  13 years as Pac 12.  33 years as Pac 10.  14 years as Pac 8.

[TrashMaster G 17757]

3 hours ago, WBT said:

Depends on how serious aggy is about sticking it to snakey and forging their own identity

aggy to the PAC!

[Zonahorn 8079]

 

[Macklemore 2881]

Dan Wolken goes off on the impostor PAC-12:

This quote is money:

“But they made it to an impostor Pac-12 whose resurrection is less compelling than a Journey reunion tour without Steve Perry as the lead singer.”

[LTbear 4173]

1 hour ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Yup exactly...I knew it was one them. So yeah Stanford can go fuck themselves and Cal can too for their BoR making UCLA subsidize their bitch ass program that doesn't give a fuck about footbal. In fact neither of these schools give a shit about football so I hope their programs die.

So, you mean the UCLA BOR?

[TKthunder2 5038]

10 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

Dan Wolken goes off on the impostor PAC-12:

This quote is money:

“But they made it to an impostor Pac-12 whose resurrection is less compelling than a Journey reunion tour without Steve Perry as the lead singer.”

Here is the text. Good article other than Texas catching a stray…
 

Quote

Pac-12 adding Mountain West schools sets new standard of pointlessness in college sports

In the annals of absurdity, financial mismanagement and ego-driven decision making that have long been the hallmarks of conference realignment, Thursday’s announcement of a rebuilt Pac-12 sets a new standard for pointlessness in college sports.

Left for dead a year ago when the rest of their league scattered to the wind, Oregon State and Washington State have convinced Boise State, Colorado State, Fresno State and San Diego State to leave the Mountain West and join them under the Pac-12 banner in 2026. There will be more additions for sure — you’d think UNLV, Air Force, and perhaps New Mexico would be a starting point depending on how big they want to go — but the bottom line is so inconsequential you have to ask whether it's even worth the trouble.

In breaking away from the Mountain West, all the Disloyal Four have truly done is joined a new league with an old name that is going to … look almost exactly like the Mountain West. 

And the cost of making that move? 

In excess of $100 million in exit fees and penalties associated with the scheduling agreement Oregon State and Washington State signed with the Mountain West last year, written explicitly to discourage this exact scenario where the remaining Pac-12 schools would wreck the conference that gave them a temporary football home.

A significant chunk of that money will, almost certainly, come from the Pac-12 war chest assembled from a mass of conference revenue the other 10 schools had to forfeit when they left for the Big Ten, Big 12 and ACC. And in turn, the Mountain West will take that money to bolster its remaining members and adding members to ensure its own survival. Given how shallow the pool gets at that end of conference expansion, the Mountain West will probably have to elevate some Football Championship Subdivision schools or dip into Conference USA, which had to do the exact same thing last year. 

The cycle continues. 

And for what? How can you possibly convince any rational person that this level of conference realignment — again, with more than $100 million being exchanged from one batch of mid-major schools to another — is anything more than a low-level Ponzi scheme? 

If you squint really, really hard, you can kind of see how schools like Boise State, Colorado State and San Diego State that have a little bit of national juice could convince themselves that there’s a benefit to joining up with Oregon State and Washington State on a more formal basis while leaving behind what they consider to be the Mountain West’s dead weight.  

Which means the difference is television money is likely going to be marginal. There will be no difference in College Football Playoff access because nobody with true power in this sport is going to consider the Pac-12 to be a major conference. When it's all said and done, Boise State and the rest are going to end up largely playing the same opponents they've been playing for years just with a different conference logo on the field. 

And in the end, when you cut through all the baloney, that’s what this is really all about. 

Athletics administrators and college presidents are only fluent in one language when it comes to conference realignment: Whether they feel like they're in the cool kids’ club or they’re out.

Look across the landscape over the last few years and there’s no real calculus driving these decisions other than ego -- even more than money.  

Why did Texas start the process of ditching the Big 12 for the SEC? Because their football program had made a series of horrible coaching hires, and they blamed their subsequent recruiting failures on being in a mediocre conference.

Why did Southern Cal engineer a jailbreak from the Pac-12 for the Big Ten? Because their program had been in stasis and there was a perception among USC administrators that the Pac-12 wasn’t doing enough to help them get back to national relevance. 

Why are Florida State and Clemson taking the ACC to court in an attempt to become free agents, even though it's going to cost a ton and there's no guarantee of a more lucrative landing spot? It's because of the fear that they’re going to end up on the wrong side of a dividing line between the elites and the commoners that used to include six conferences at the top and now only includes four. 

This state of affairs has left college administrators feeling rather helpless. They are just passengers as the NCAA model gets reshaped through lawsuits and threats that schools in the Big Ten and SEC will break away and do their own thing if they don't get the freedom they need to make rules and spend money that everyone else doesn’t have.

So the sole focus for everyone else is getting as close to that dividing line as possible — regardless of the travel logistics, the exit fees and who gets screwed over.

A year ago, Washington State and Oregon State were sympathetic figures because nobody wanted them. Now, they’re predators, digging their fangs into the carcass-strewn Mountain West. 

And those joining them are getting what, exactly? Oh, they'll throw a big party this week in Boise and San Diego and Fort Collins. They finally made it!

But they made it to an impostor Pac-12 whose resurrection is less compelling than a Journey reunion tour without Steve Perry as the lead singer. 

Sure, Oregon State and Washington State got to keep the name and the branding, but no one is fooled. What they're putting together is more Parody Pac than Pac-12, but in college sports these days it's sadly just business as usual.

 

[Rimbo 26465]

1 hour ago, thunderlounge said:

I know this was intended to be humorous, and is, but it’s also true.

that's what makes it so funny

[TrashMaster G 17757]

21 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

Why did Texas start the process of ditching the Big 12 for the SEC? Because their football program had made a series of horrible coaching hires, and they blamed their subsequent recruiting failures on being in a mediocre conference.

What a load of crap. This is a totally false narrative.

And why is he so pissed? Exactly what are OSU and WSU supposed to do given their current situation?

Using the war chest to create a new conference makes all the sense in the world.

['stache 21919]

Yeah, I don't get the anger. Everyone mocked the Big XII when it was twice left for dead. This is the collective fault of dozens of decision makers at universities, conferences, the NCAA, and ESPN, who for some fucking dumbass reason I cannot figure out prefer this piecemeal shit to just sitting the fuck down and figuring out the best way to get the bluebloods paid while letting conferences and scheduling remain somewhat regional and preserving rivalries. 

Edited September 12 by 'stache

[TKthunder2 5038]

14 minutes ago, TrashMaster G said:

Exactly what are OSU and WSU supposed to do given their current situation?

Using the war chest to create a new conference makes all the sense in the world.

Keep their money and join/merge with the MWC.

His point is that them joining the MWC and them taking the best of the MWC doesn’t really do shit because at that level it’s all the same.

If they can take Memphis, Tulane, Rice, UTSA and maybe UNT then that is significantly different and better.

But if they end up just taking Utah State, UNLV, and/or Air Force, then you spent $100million+ just to ditch…Wyoming, New Mexico, Nevada, and San Jose State (they can drop Hawaii whenever they want).

Seems irresponsible, especially with the price to play increasing across the board.

Edited September 12 by TKthunder2

[TrashMaster G 17757]

3 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

Keep their money and join/merge with the MWC.

His point is that them joining the MWC and them taking the best of the MWC doesn’t really do shit because at that level it’s all the same.

If they can take Memphis, Tulane, Rice, UTSA and maybe UNT then that is significantly different and better.

But if they end up just taking Utah State, UNLV, and/or Air Force, then you spent $100million+ just to ditch…Wyoming, New Mexico, Nevada, and San Jose State (they can drop Hawaii whenever they want).

Seems irresponsible, especially with the price to play increasing across the board.

No, it makes sense. You take the best from the MWC and step away - You'll get as a better deal than the MWC with fewer mouths to feed.

[Huckleberry 33604]

The very fact that Wolken wrote that article disproves the article itself. 

[TKthunder2 5038]

11 minutes ago, TrashMaster G said:

No, it makes sense. You take the best from the MWC and step away - You'll get as a better deal than the MWC with fewer mouths to feed.

Less content = less money

The brands at this level aren’t really brands.

[WBT 20764]

33 minutes ago, TrashMaster G said:

What a load of crap. This is a totally false narrative.

Seems fairly accurate to me

[TrashMaster G 17757]

5 minutes ago, WBT said:

Seems fairly accurate to me

No. We did not move to the SEC because our football team sucked.

[WelfareBuysMyWeed 5645]

25 minutes ago, WBT said:

Seems fairly accurate to me

Sounds like you are missing chromosomes. We moved to the SEC for money.

[statsman 5522]

Nope. It was Utah’s president. 
 
https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/college/pac-12/2023/10/07/pac-12-conference-collapse-arizona-state-michael-crow-speculation-wrong/71103413007/

(I had remembered it as ASU’s president, but that turned out to be wrong). 
 
 

['stache 21919]

42 minutes ago, TrashMaster G said:

No. We did not move to the SEC because our football team sucked.

 

23 minutes ago, WelfareBuysMyWeed said:

Sounds like you are missing chromosomes. We moved to the SEC for money.

You never struggled in recruiting, just got burned with some coaching hires that didn't work out. OU is currently in that situation I think. It's all about the money.

Edited September 12 by 'stache

[TKthunder2 5038]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

 

You never struggled in recruiting, just got burned with some coaching hires that didn't work out. OU is currently in that situation I think. It's all about the money.

1) Money

2) Home schedule

3) Get away from rapists

[bullet 1609]

5 hours ago, TrashMaster G said:

What a load of crap. This is a totally false narrative.

And why is he so pissed? Exactly what are OSU and WSU supposed to do given their current situation?

Using the war chest to create a new conference makes all the sense in the world.

Well he's wrong about Texas, OU, USC and UCLA and their motivations and how logical it was.  But as far as the MWC schools, he's spot on.  They're trading getting 3 peanuts and a pecan for 3 peanuts and an almond.

[bullet 1609]

4 hours ago, WelfareBuysMyWeed said:

Sounds like you are missing chromosomes. We moved to the SEC for money.

Actually we moved because Alabama, Georgia, Ohio St. and Clemson were coming into Texas and taking the blue chips.  The money was the least of our concerns.  As DeLoss said, "We are the Joneses."  and "We have money." to the Pac 10.

[bullet 1609]

4 hours ago, 'stache said:

 

You never struggled in recruiting, just got burned with some coaching hires that didn't work out. OU is currently in that situation I think. It's all about the money.

You weren't watching the Texas recruiting closely.  The difference makers were going out of state.  We got plenty of good players, but the great players started to elude us.  A lot of that had to do with the 4 team playoff.  But a lot had to do with network's focusing on the Big 10 and SEC while paying limited attention to the Big 12 and ACC and ignoring the Pac 12.

[bullet 1609]

Don't remember the exact numbers, but there was one year, the top Texas player we got was something like #15 in the state and I think A&M got only 1 of the top 11 and OU 1 of the top 11.  The next year, Texas, Texas A&M and OU got something like 8 of the top 11, dominating in a way I don't remember happening.  UT hasn't done quite as well since then, but its not as bad as it got before.  And we are in the running for 5 star players around the country.  I think we just picked up the #1 safety in the country for 2026.  He plays in Georgia.

[bullet 1609]

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/41226997/sources-boise-state-four-schools-set-join-pac-12

Another discussion of it.

Separate article, said the 2Pac was relying on their consultant Navigate who said their deal would be worth about $10 million a school.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/41230791/pac-12-conference-expansion-adding-four-teams-mountain-west

[TKthunder2 5038]

1 hour ago, bullet said:

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/41226997/sources-boise-state-four-schools-set-join-pac-12

Another discussion of it.

Separate article, said the 2Pac was relying on their consultant Navigate who said their deal would be worth about $10 million a school.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/41230791/pac-12-conference-expansion-adding-four-teams-mountain-west

The article missed that the MWC is going to be at just 7 schools not 8, as Hawaii only plays football in the MWC but they need 8 to retain their basketball bid, so the MWC will have to expand but they have two years after the 4 teams leave to figure it out.

[shnsajax 3592]

Keep their money and join/merge with the MWC.
His point is that them joining the MWC and them taking the best of the MWC doesn’t really do shit because at that level it’s all the same.
If they can take Memphis, Tulane, Rice, UTSA and maybe UNT then that is significantly different and better.
But if they end up just taking Utah State, UNLV, and/or Air Force, then you spent $100million+ just to ditch…Wyoming, New Mexico, Nevada, and San Jose State (they can drop Hawaii whenever they want).
Seems irresponsible, especially with the price to play increasing across the board.

Pac12 still gets auto playoff assuming they get to 8 by 2026. More value in that brand and expand to the Central Time Zone.

[BurntOrange&White 40491]

13 minutes ago, shnsajax said:

Pac12 still gets auto playoff assuming they get to 8 by 2026. More value in that brand and expand to the Central Time Zone.

They won’t. They will be lumped with g6

[TKthunder2 5038]

55 minutes ago, shnsajax said:

Pac12 still gets auto playoff assuming they get to 8 by 2026. More value in that brand and expand to the Central Time Zone.

There is no auto playoff. Its the highest 5 conference champions.

[WelfareBuysMyWeed 5645]

7 hours ago, bullet said:

Actually we moved because Alabama, Georgia, Ohio St. and Clemson were coming into Texas and taking the blue chips.  The money was the least of our concerns.  As DeLoss said, "We are the Joneses."  and "We have money." to the Pac 10.

no, it was money.

[statsman 5522]

1. It was recruiting. The best players in the state were all biased towards playing in the SEC first and the B1G second. 
2. it was the money. You can’t build a program along the Alabama model without hiring a large support staff for scouting and analysis. The media payouts to the SEC and B1G are large enough to cover that expense. 
 
The NIL evolution merely made the SEC a viable alternative for Texas. If paying players were against the rules, Texas wouldn’t do it. 

[Al_4_ISU 12545]

39 minutes ago, statsman said:

1. It was recruiting. The best players in the state were all biased towards playing in the SEC first and the B1G second. 
2. it was the money. You can’t build a program along the Alabama model without hiring a large support staff for scouting and analysis. The media payouts to the SEC and B1G are large enough to cover that expense. 
 
The NIL evolution merely made the SEC a viable alternative for Texas. If paying players were against the rules, Texas wouldn’t do it. 

That was essentially due to a decades-long media blitz that was intentionally designed to weaken the Big 12.  Texas's slump was definitely a factor in that narrative too.  If Colt McCoy doesn't get hurt in the 2010 natty and Texas wins that game, it's a huge blow to what was a budding SEC superiority narrative.

If Texas had maintained and OU had done something with their playoff opportunities, the Big 12 would have had less of a perception problem.  The fanbases were still not as big as the SEC or Big 10, and I think what happened might have happened anyways due to money, but the bias toward the SEC was absolutely related to the Big 12's biggest brands not having high end national success on the field in that time frame.

['stache 21919]

Ou and Texas had the same 4 and 5 star players throughout. That wasn’t a problem. Any program would move to double their income.

[thunderlounge 8040]

So it’s Texas’ fault the b12 had a perception problem. 
 

That is fucking goddamn rich right there.

How about: football at the top is cyclical. Look at Michigan right now, as one of several examples.

Did anyone else bother to try and step up, or were they just content getting paid off the work of others?

There’s plenty of blame to pass around. 

[Royale with cheese 1477]

16 hours ago, 'stache said:

 

You never struggled in recruiting, just got burned with some coaching hires that didn't work out. OU is currently in that situation I think. It's all about the money.

News flash: It's ALWAYS all about the money. Texas and blOw-U went to the SEC for the same reason Willie Sutton robbed banks. 

[Royale with cheese 1477]

2 hours ago, statsman said:

1. It was recruiting. The best players in the state were all biased towards playing in the SEC first and the B1G second. 
2. it was the money. You can’t build a program along the Alabama model without hiring a large support staff for scouting and analysis. The media payouts to the SEC and B1G are large enough to cover that expense. 
 

"Tastes great!"   "Less filling!"

[statsman 5522]

1 hour ago, Al_4_ISU said:

That was essentially due to a decades-long media blitz that was intentionally designed to weaken the Big 12.  Texas's slump was definitely a factor in that narrative too.  If Colt McCoy doesn't get hurt in the 2010 natty and Texas wins that game, it's a huge blow to what was a budding SEC superiority narrative.

If Texas had maintained and OU had done something with their playoff opportunities, the Big 12 would have had less of a perception problem.  The fanbases were still not as big as the SEC or Big 10, and I think what happened might have happened anyways due to money, but the bias toward the SEC was absolutely related to the Big 12's biggest brands not having high end national success on the field in that time frame.

There actually is objective data. The SEC and B1G, over the last 15 years, gradually increased their number of NFL draftees- not just in gross, but per school. The B12 and ACC reduced. 
 
A five star athlete has a reasonable expectation (50% are drafted, approximately) of playing in the NFL, and so it is understandable that they would prefer to play in the SEC or B1G. 
 
Al, you don’t follow Texas recruiting like we do. You don’t realize the advantage the Ags (and even Ohio State!) had in recruiting the best players. 
 
You don’t know Texas football history like we do; it existed long before Sage Rosenfels. This has been the rule for ninety years- if Texas is not dominating Texas recruiting, the Texas coach’s seat is heating up. 

[gatormarc 931]

31 minutes ago, thunderlounge said:

So it’s Texas’ fault the b12 had a perception problem. 

That's pretty much how every conference save the SEC has been looked at. They have 1 or 2 banner programs that they depend on for perception and if they are down, the whole conference looks down.

The SEC's run has been directly related to the fact that it has had more than 1 or 2 banner programs: Bama, UGA, Florida, LSU, and Auburn have all won. Tennessee and Aggie have the resources even if they have not won. Florida, Auburn and LSU have also had down periods during this run but it didn't hurt the perception since Bama and UGA were still winning.

[Al_4_ISU 12545]

2 hours ago, thunderlounge said:

So it’s Texas’ fault the b12 had a perception problem. 
 

That is fucking goddamn rich right there.

How about: football at the top is cyclical. Look at Michigan right now, as one of several examples.

Did anyone else bother to try and step up, or were they just content getting paid off the work of others?

There’s plenty of blame to pass around. 

It’s not “Texas’s fault”.

It’s ESPN’s.  Im just saying they used Texas’s slump as ammo in their campaign to make the Big 12 untenable to the largest brands.

['stache 21919]

Every Big 12 program has invested heavily into their football programs, stadiums especially, over the last 10-25 years. There are no longer any perennial cellar dwellers. The "nobody tried" line is nonsense. And "everyone circles Texas on the schedule" is super weak too, its true for every blueblood, that's how sports work.

[Texas Wahoo 3521]

2 hours ago, Royale with cheese said:

News flash: It's ALWAYS all about the money. Texas and blOw-U went to the SEC for the same reason Willie Sutton robbed banks. 

If it was just about the money, Texas would have joined the Big Ten. 

[Huckleberry 33604]

10 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

It’s not “Texas’s fault”.

It’s ESPN’s.  Im just saying they used Texas’s slump as ammo in their campaign to make the Big 12 untenable to the largest brands.

Yes they did, and several Big 12 schools made it easier by cutting Texas's knees out from under it at every opportunity (not talking about trying to win on the field, of course). Not all, but enough. You and I agree that ISU was a good ally to both Texas and the conference. 

4 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Every Big 12 program has invested heavily into their football programs, stadiums especially, over the last 10-25 years. There are no longer any perennial cellar dwellers. The "nobody tried" line is nonsense. And "everyone circles Texas on the schedule" is super weak too, its true for every blueblood, that's how sports work.

This is true but see above. 

[TKthunder2 5038]

10 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Every Big 12 program has invested heavily into their football programs, stadiums especially, over the last 10-25 years. There are no longer any perennial cellar dwellers. The "nobody tried" line is nonsense. And "everyone circles Texas on the schedule" is super weak too, its true for every blueblood, that's how sports work.

I agree they tried, but that extra money they tried with had to come from somewhere…

The jihad game is a real thing even if you do not want to admit it. How many SEC schools circled Texas this year? OU, Georgia, Arkansas, and aggy

I highly doubt Mississippi St (Ole Miss, Georgia, TN), Kentucky (TN, Louisville, UGA), Florida (Miami, FSU, UGA, UCF, LSU) or Vandy (Bama, TN, LSU, UK) have us circled as a top 3 game on their schedule.

['stache 21919]

Admit it? What's there to admit? Of course everyone has a little extra when OU or Texas is the opponent. It's laughable that you think the SEC will be different. This year especially because (1) you're the No. 2 team in the country, and (2) none of them want the new guys to win it in their first year.

[TKthunder2 5038]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

Admit it? What's there to admit? Of course everyone has a little extra when OU or Texas is the opponent. It's laughable that you think the SEC will be different. This year especially because (1) you're the No. 2 team in the country, and (2) none of them want the new guys to win it in their first year.

Circling games is like highlighting, if you use it on everything it means nothing.

In the Big 12 everyone circled Texas and OU. The Iowa State lineman said it true last year, they cared about Iowa and Texas. Do you think it’s any different with Baylor, UH, Tech, or TCU?

In the SEC that won’t be the case. Sure, Texas will be a big game, especially when ranked, but they all will have 3-4 other big games AND rivalry games on top of those. If you circle the teams on half your schedule then it doesn’t mean much. You can’t spend extra time preparing for Texas when you play LSU or Georgia or Bama the week or two before. That “little extra” won’t always be used against Texas in the SEC like it was in the Big 12.

 

[statsman 5522]

Last year’s B12 CG was the first time Mike Gundy went into a Texas game without having worked on Texas the prior spring and summer. He rolled out his 2022 Texas game plan. It was glorious. 

['stache 21919]

19 minutes ago, statsman said:

Last year’s B12 CG was the first time Mike Gundy went into a Texas game without having worked on Texas the prior spring and summer. He rolled out his 2022 Texas game plan. It was glorious. 

 

Bull fucking shit. The fact that you guys think teams are ignoring the games in front of them to focus on Texas is absurd, comical actually. Your team last year was the first time in a decade your star studded roster actually played to their potential. Your players were bigger, stronger, and faster top to bottom. Our team struggled on and off all season and needed a few miracles to even make the title game. We had to be perfect to even have a chance at winning and it didn't happen. That's how football works. JFC, get over yourself already. 

[Doc Daneeka 6769]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

 

Bull fucking shit. The fact that you guys think teams are ignoring the games in front of them to focus on Texas is absurd, comical actually. Your team last year was the first time in a decade your star studded roster actually played to their potential. Your players were bigger, stronger, and faster top to bottom. Our team struggled on and off all season and needed a few miracles to even make the title game. We had to be perfect to even have a chance at winning and it didn't happen. That's how football works. JFC, get over yourself already. 

That strawman never had a chance. It was like it was that first woman swimmer in Jaws. Just brutalized and left for the crabs to finish. Well done. 

[DFW Horn 6519]

22 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

The article missed that the MWC is going to be at just 7 schools not 8, as Hawaii only plays football in the MWC but they need 8 to retain their basketball bid, so the MWC will have to expand but they have two years after the 4 teams leave to figure it out.

I'm wondering why UNLV isn't in the mix, given their metro area, media market, and growth potential.

They can't be much worse than Cougar High.

[billfromlaketravis 11630]

There gotta be a contractual issue I’m missing. Going to 6 instead of 8 right now doesn’t make sense. 
 

How long is Stanford and Cal tied to the ACC?