Religions are....

[crash_davis 23078]

 books clubs. Prove me wrong.

[tchookem 3900]

I can meet with a book club and feel pressured to give anyone any money.

I can disagree with the other members about the book we've read.

[CooterBrown 17874]

Most book club leaders aren’t known for raping young boys.

[Guest]

never heard a Book Club station on the radio...

Nor have I heard an athlete attribute his success to a book club.

[Surly Bevo 24692]

2 hours ago, crash_davis said:

 books clubs. Prove me wrong.

Millions upon millions of people have not died over a book club

On the flip side millions and millions of people generally have not shared that a book club was chiefly responsible for the success in their life or the good they have done in the world.

A little bit of this and a little bit of that....but it's a bit more complicated than 7 hens sitting around drinking wine and chattering about the latest self help book they read.  

[hobbes2702 12771]

… cults that took a couple hundred years to catch on.

[Underdog 28437]

Never talk about book club outside of book club. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

Religions are just old cults that everyone already belongs to 

[Celery Man 20874]

2 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

Most book club leaders aren’t known for raping young boys.

[Mo Horn 8795]

The opiate of the masses.... at least according to one philosopher. 

[Satchel 6908]

5 hours ago, crash_davis said:

 books clubs. Prove me wrong.

“Religions are but the fingers that point us to the moon, not the moon itself.”

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

6 hours ago, crash_davis said:

 books clubs. Prove me wrong.

Not all religions have scripture. They’re not all “of the book” as they say in Islam.

I’d propose a multiple choice:

A) Man-made socio-political institutions.
B) Ways for primitive people to explain things they don’t understand.
C) A method to convince yourself that you’re good and someone else is bad.
D) All of the above

And I choose D.

[Anastasis 23375]

Grammar has been crucified for our sins. 

[hookemATL 11596]

The only faith I need

[Willfully Horn 7913]

7 hours ago, crash_davis said:

 books clubs. Prove me wrong.

Well, I know a couple of ladies who are palliative nurses. They both agree that, on average, religious folk have an easier time dying. Emotionally, I suppose. Neither friend has volunteered the same observation about book clubs

For me, the words attributed to Christ resonate. I have experienced what I believed to be loving your neighbor as yourself, and know the effect it had on me. To be honest, I have had the same experience in a secular context. Books have not led to the same place I reference, though they provided a glimpse. 
 

Edited to admit that I am far from loving your neighbor these days. And I haven't been close to that in the better part of a decade.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Willfully Horn

[South Austin 52037]

My favorite REM song is Losing My Book Club.

[formermav43 4599]

So overzealous atheists are actually against reading?

[YChang 3430]

… can be beautiful, noble, peaceful, thoughtful…. But the people that practice it are often jerks, especially here in the U.S. 

[Mo Horn 8795]

To be perfectly transparent... I have a Masters of Arts in Religion and worked for a faith community (religious organization) for 18 years, as my father did for 25 years before me. I grew up in the community and wanted nothing more than to work for it. Once I did, I gave myself 100% and sacrificed a lot to do it. As an employee of the World Headquarters, I had the great opportunity to work with people all over the world and travel to many places to support local efforts and local ministers. They, and the places I traveled to, changed my life in more ways than I can ever express. I love theology and I'm passionate about the theological journey every person of faith should take. I am a scripture nerd and love studying the historical Jesus and the scriptures from a faith and historical viewpoint. I taught many classes on all this. I had spent most of my life involved in this, one way or the other, until 6 years ago. 

However, having worked for the institution for 18 years, I totally get the phrase that you never want to see how the sausage is made. I made it for 18 years, and it had nothing to do with faith or anything related to religion. At the end of the day I was let go due to financial cutbacks. My personal journey before, during, and after that is long and complicated, and more than most have a desire to hear. While I still consider myself to be committed to the ideals of my personal faith, I am no longer associated with that, or any other organized religion. I still associate with people across the world, who I miss dearly, and mourn my lack off association with them.

If you study the historical Jesus, you will understand he never advocated, or said anything about an organized religion. He was about living every day affirming the worth of each and every person he met simply because they were part of creation. Humans took what he stood for and created the organization, and like everything we do, it became about us, and not about the original ideas. Scriptures were written by those pushing their specific narrative years later, adapting myths and legends to make their case. 

That's a lot to say that religion, like a lot of things,  was born from pure ideas and corrupted by humans. I get why people are devoted. They want to believe in, and belong to, something greater than themselves. I lived it for 56 years. Sadly, that something is run by humans, and we know what that means. I have no regrets of those 56 years, or where I am today. 

[Satchel 6908]

“Christianity was originally offered in Israel as an experience.
moved to Greece and became a philosophy.

moved to Rome and became organized religion.

moved to Europe and became a culture.

then moved to America and became a business.”

[TonyTexas 10478]

49 minutes ago, YChang said:

… can be beautiful, noble, peaceful, thoughtful…. But the people that practice it are often jerks, especially here in the U.S. 

Muslims say “hold my beer”

[YChang 3430]

Muslims say “hold my beer”

Oh there’s plenty of room for all with my criticism. But since I’m an American and seeing the role some evangelical Christians have played with current politics here, that’s more top of mind for me.

[George Clooney 378]

1 hour ago, Mo Horn said:

To be perfectly transparent... I have a Masters of Arts in Religion and worked for a faith community (religious organization) for 18 years, as my father did for 25 years before me. I grew up in the community and wanted nothing more than to work for it. Once I did, I gave myself 100% and sacrificed a lot to do it. As an employee of the World Headquarters, I had the great opportunity to work with people all over the world and travel to many places to support local efforts and local ministers. They, and the places I traveled to, changed my life in more ways than I can ever express. I love theology and I'm passionate about the theological journey every person of faith should take. I am a scripture nerd and love studying the historical Jesus and the scriptures from a faith and historical viewpoint. I taught many classes on all this. I had spent most of my life involved in this, one way or the other, until 6 years ago. 

However, having worked for the institution for 18 years, I totally get the phrase that you never want to see how the sausage is made. I made it for 18 years, and it had nothing to do with faith or anything related to religion. At the end of the day I was let go due to financial cutbacks. My personal journey before, during, and after that is long and complicated, and more than most have a desire to hear. While I still consider myself to be committed to the ideals of my personal faith, I am no longer associated with that, or any other organized religion. I still associate with people across the world, who I miss dearly, and mourn my lack off association with them.

If you study the historical Jesus, you will understand he never advocated, or said anything about an organized religion. He was about living every day affirming the worth of each and every person he met simply because they were part of creation. Humans took what he stood for and created the organization, and like everything we do, it became about us, and not about the original ideas. Scriptures were written by those pushing their specific narrative years later, adapting myths and legends to make their case. 

That's a lot to say that religion, like a lot of things,  was born from pure ideas and corrupted by humans. I get why people are devoted. They want to believe in, and belong to, something greater than themselves. I lived it for 56 years. Sadly, that something is run by humans, and we know what that means. I have no regrets of those 56 years, or where I am today. 

Have you ever read The Antichrist by Nietzsche?

[Blotto 23418]

1 hour ago, Mo Horn said:

If you study the historical Jesus, you will understand he never advocated, or said anything about an organized religion. He was about living every day affirming the worth of each and every person he met simply because they were part of creation. Humans took what he stood for and created the organization, and like everything we do, it became about us, and not about the original ideas. Scriptures were written by those pushing their specific narrative years later, adapting myths and legends to make their case. 

I loathe organized religion. The negatives I see in this country and globally far outweigh the positives. Organized religion is an incredibly effective means of controlling large numbers of people and unfortunately I don't have a lot of positive things to say about those in charge doing most of the controlling. 

[Nolacycling 893]

Since this thread is being allowed to stay in The Cloak Room.

Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

Barry Goldwater 1960's

 

And as anybody knows, Eno is God.

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

5 hours ago, formermav43 said:

So overzealous atheists are actually against reading?

In my observation, atheists read more than religious people do. And if you think there’s such a thing as zealotry in atheism then you probably don’t know the etymology of that word nor what atheism is.

[formermav43 4599]

3 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

In my observation, atheists read more than religious people do. And if you think there’s such a thing as zealotry in atheism then you probably don’t know the etymology of that word nor what atheism is.

It was a joke. Relax.

(He responded to the defensive atheist who injects his disbelief and disdain for religion into every thread even remotely related to the subject and some not related at all but is totally not zealous why would you think that such a thing even exists?)

[pyrohornIII 4801]

houses that guilt built.

[South Austin 52037]

11 hours ago, hookemATL said:

The only faith I need

But when you shake your ass, they notice fast, and some mistakes were built to last.

Edited May 2, 2022 by South Austin

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

10 hours ago, Mo Horn said:

If you study the historical Jesus

Where can I do that? Not in the Bible, that’s for sure. No one who wrote anything in the Bible ever met Jesus. No one else has either. Certainly not Josephus. There is literally no evidence that the Jesus in the Bible ever existed. Maybe someone fitting that description did. Maybe he’s a composite of several itinerant preachers from the era. Maybe he’s a pure fabrication created by people who read the prophecies in old Jewish texts and invented that myth to fulfill predictions made by the myths that came before.

I say that there’s no such thing as an historical Jesus. “Prove me wrong.”

You can’t.

[Mo Horn 8795]

8 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Where can I do that? Not in the Bible, that’s for sure. No one who wrote anything in the Bible ever met Jesus. No one else has either. Certainly not Josephus. There is literally no evidence that the Jesus in the Bible ever existed. Maybe someone fitting that description did. Maybe he’s a composite of several itinerant preachers from the era. Maybe he’s a pure fabrication created by people who read the prophecies in old Jewish texts and invented that myth to fulfill predictions made by the myths that came before.

I say that there’s no such thing as an historical Jesus. “Prove me wrong.”

You can’t.

You're not totally wrong. There are Jewish and Roman historians, who have nothing to do with religion, who mention him in their writings. Not much is written, but the huge majority of scholars (you'll never find 100% on anything) agree that Jesus as a person did exist. There are scholars who will say the person never existed and he is totally made up, so some would agree with. I'm fine if that's the case, although I do fall in the "he actually existed as a person" camp. The Jesus Seminar is made up of numerous scholars whose goal is to understand the historical person, apart from the faith one. My introduction to them was both faith shattering, at the time, and one of the best things that has ever happened to me. 

[Mo Horn 8795]

9 hours ago, George Clooney said:

Have you ever read The Antichrist by Nietzsche?

I never have. It was always on my list, but never made it to the top of the pile. 

['stache 21743]

A series of fables that people took too serious.

I find religion fascinating as a historical study because it has shaped nearly every aspect of ourselves since we started civilizations. There are good things in most religious stories that were likely meant to be fables (in the literal sense, stories with moral implications). Jesus himself spoke in parables according to the Bible.

Being more speculative, I think there were moral stories passed down through generations that at the time weren't meant to be taken literal, it only became so through human bureaucracy as a way for the powerful to manipulate people in lower classes with the promise of eternal reward (but only after you die, sorry). The fact that many civilizations have similar stories as the current Christian Bible is as telling as anything, they are certain spins on stories that had developed over time between peoples. That alone convinces me  that none of the current religions could possibly reflect any sort of absolute truth. 

[Mo Horn 8795]

One of my favorite quotes from one of my favorite authors

[formermav43 4599]

57 minutes ago, Mo Horn said:

There are scholars who will say the person never existed and he is totally made up, so some would agree with.  

No one credible-there a reason those guys don’t have jobs in academia. As historians go, they’re the equivalent of America’s Frontline Doctors. Which makes the Jesus mythicist posts extra amusing.

(Obviously the bare existence of Jesus the man is a separate question from who he was.)

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

I don't remember much of this one anymore.  I do remember it being eye opening for me at the time in my life when I read it.

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by MC Fresh Breath
english is hard

[South Austin 52037]

12 hours ago, Mo Horn said:

If you study the historical Jesus, you will understand he never advocated, or said anything about an organized religion. He was about living every day affirming the worth of each and every person he met simply because they were part of creation. Humans took what he stood for and created the organization, and like everything we do, it became about us, and not about the original ideas. Scriptures were written by those pushing their specific narrative years later, adapting myths and legends to make their case.

I think Jesus acknowledged that his mission would be effectively carried out in community, rather than individually, and that requires some level of "organization."  But I agree that humankind very quickly brought that "organization" to a level that would have made Jesus facepalm. 

[Brisketexan 104462]

42 minutes ago, Mo Horn said:

One of my favorite quotes from one of my favorite authors

Love it.

I mean, here's the fucking irony.  "Christianity" is fundamentally and unquestionably based on a biblical figure who habitually and routinely spoke in allegory, symbolism, and fictional tales to make a larger point (Jesus and his parables).......yet a shitload of Christians are hung up on their belief that the VERY SAME collection of stories, purportedly inscribed and compiled at the direction of the SAME GOD, are literally true instead of being a mish-mash collection of tales of broad historical events, moral pronouncements and declarations (e.g., the psalms), and allegories/parables/metaphors.

When read in context -- yeah, think book club, because that's a shitload of what Christian theologians are doing -- the Bible and Christianity aren't nonsensical at all.  Instead, they are consistent with the development of a moral code by and through an ancient people and culture, resulting in a final code of rather sound and wise principles that are common to most great faiths and even secular moral traditions.

It's when you get hung up on the creation myth instead being a factual accounting of how the cosmos and earth and life came to be that you go utterly fucking sideways, and sticking with that approach, you never get back on track.

Then, layer on human tendencies to use ANY "system" (whether it be a faith, or the system of the rule of law, etc.) to serve their own selfish ends instead of the purpose of the system itself, and you end up with Grand Fuckery.  Because people are Fucky.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Brisketexan

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

26 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

the Bible and Christianity aren't nonsensical at all.  Instead, they are consistent with the development of a moral code

There is nothing moral about a foundational myth where a god directs a man to murder his own son in order to prove his faith. That’s just sick. The god of Abraham is an immoral monster god that can only be the invention of humans. There is nothing moral about a creator who has a “chosen people.” And it shouldn’t escape notice that the people who invented that god coincidentally happen to be those chosen people. And then consider the absurdity of the fact that other people who aren’t those chosen people worship, and preach about, that same immoral monster god.

We don’t need religion to teach a moral code. Religion does more harm than good. It can be useful to make children think someone is watching them when no one is so they don’t misbehave. But to me that just seems like lazy parenting. 

[South Austin 52037]

3 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

It can be useful to make children think someone is watching them when no one is so they don’t misbehave.

God knows when you masturbate.

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

9 minutes ago, South Austin said:

God knows when you masturbate.

If He didn’t want me to masturbate then He wouldn’t have created the nocturnal emission.

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

Speaking of which, how’s about a comedic interlude from Kip Addotta?

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by WhatTheBuck

['stache 21743]

13 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

If He didn’t want me to masturbate then He wouldn’t have created the nocturnal emission.

I never had the guts to ask my parents or anyone at the church this question. If masturbation is bad because its a waste of seed why does it happen involuntarily? Is that wrong too? If priests don't have sex and don't masturbate, do they have wet dreams and do they have to confess it? Makes no sense that something that is wrong happens involuntarily if you don't make it happen yourself.

[Neonmoon 38127]

2 hours ago, 'stache said:

A series of fables that people took too serious.

I find religion fascinating as a historical study because it has shaped nearly every aspect of ourselves since we started civilizations. There are good things in most religious stories that were likely meant to be fables (in the literal sense, stories with moral implications). Jesus himself spoke in parables according to the Bible.

Being more speculative, I think there were moral stories passed down through generations that at the time weren't meant to be taken literal, it only became so through human bureaucracy as a way for the powerful to manipulate people in lower classes with the promise of eternal reward (but only after you die, sorry). The fact that many civilizations have similar stories as the current Christian Bible is as telling as anything, they are certain spins on stories that had developed over time between peoples. That alone convinces me  that none of the current religions could possibly reflect any sort of absolute truth. 

This is correct. It's a series of fables and each iteration attached a new spin. It's all made up to make people feel better about things they don't understand. Same as it always was. The main difference about the last round of iterations of Christianity/Judaism/Islam is that the printing press came about and cemented their interpretation as "truth", well, that and a ton of killing. Actually, the killing came first, then the printing press. 

[Mole 4318]

If it’s a book club, a lot of members sure don’t seem to read the book. 
 

Whatever you think about the contents and fandom of the book, group singing and music-making is good for the soul.

[Hookah Horns 3058]

Religion is a reaction to the distressing knowledge that we're all going to die. 

[F250 28659]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

If He didn’t want me to masturbate then He wouldn’t have created the nocturnal emission.

 

A sprinkler system isn't the reason you like to water by hand.

 

[Mo Horn 8795]

One of my theories, although I have never researched it, is that the earliest forms of religion came about when humanity first began to ask, "where did we come from, and where do we go when we die". They can both be answered clinically, in regard to the start and end of life. Neither of those questions can be answered with any certitude when it comes to soul, or other qualities that make us human. From those two questions emerged all philosophy and religion. 

[Nivek 16807]

47 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

This is correct. It's a series of fables and each iteration attached a new spin. It's all made up to make people feel better about things they don't understand. Same as it always was. The main difference about the last round of iterations of Christianity/Judaism/Islam is that the printing press came about and cemented their interpretation as "truth", well, that and a ton of killing. Actually, the killing came first, then the printing press. 

I don't think for one second the killing was about religion.  It was always about power and resources.  Religious differences is just the excuse to violate one's own social contract without inviting anarchy among the like minded.   

 

[Hermanator 6916]

15 hours ago, Satchel said:

“Christianity was originally offered in Israel as an experience.
moved to Greece and became a philosophy.

moved to Rome and became organized religion.

moved to Europe and became a culture.

then moved to America and became a business.”

Vatican city wasn't built by it not being a business. It's been a business since the beginning.