Religions are....

[Hermanator 7050]

17 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Well, I know a couple of ladies who are palliative nurses. They both agree that, on average, religious folk have an easier time dying. Emotionally, I suppose. Neither friend has volunteered the same observation about book clubs

You just need something to believe in past what we are here. I personally believe the law of conservation of energy in the universe means our energy recycles into another life form and that we've been doing this since the beginning of time. 

Once you have a belief that it's ok to go then you believe it's ok to go. 

[Willfully Horn 8017]

5 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

You just need something to believe in past what we are here. I personally believe the law of conservation of energy in the universe means our energy recycles into another life form and that we've been doing this since the beginning of time. 

Once you have a belief that it's ok to go then you believe it's ok to go. 

That’s fair. 

['stache 21815]

I don't have a fear of dying per se, my only concern is a painful death. I prefer the idea of being done when I'm done and replenishing the soil. No embalming or fancy box, cremate me and return me to the earth. I'd honestly be fine just being buried without cremation as worm food but no fancy plot or cemetery and my guess is that it would be illegal, hence cremation. Still determining where I want my ashes spread, but I have made that decision final and told my wife and family.

The idea of "eternal life" in any context is horrifying to me. A consciousness with no end? At some point I'll get tired of it all. It's one reason I absolutely adore the tv show The Good Place. Spoilered for ending just in case.

Spoiler

The series ending was perfect, probably the best of any show I can recall. Even heaven as we've come to describe it would get exhausting after some time and there should be a way for a final exit.

 

[Willfully Horn 8017]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

I never had the guts to ask my parents or anyone at the church this question. If masturbation is bad because its a waste of seed why does it happen involuntarily? Is that wrong too? If priests don't have sex and don't masturbate, do they have wet dreams and do they have to confess it? Makes no sense that something that is wrong happens involuntarily if you don't make it happen yourself.

The Jesuits must have thought I could be reasoned into considering the priesthood. I had many individual conversations with a cast of characters. One guy told me that masturbation helped priests avoid temptation. Sure, that was a mixed message in terms of Church doctrine. Bit Jesuits liked to espouse Church doctrine in a manner that automatically called the canon into question, so it was par for the experience.

[High Plains Drifter 11049]

 

I've never been to church (of my own free will at least). I've never been part of a book club (of my own free will).

 

Yep, pretty much the same.

[The Original Greaser Bob 2833]

 

[Satchel 6938]

 "Religion is one of the safest places to hide from God."

[TexPx 2323]

The opiate of the masses.... at least according to one philosopher. 

The smile on the dog….according to another.

[Satchel 6938]

Before the truth sets you free, it tends to make you miserable.

[F250 28775]

2 hours ago, Mo Horn said:

One of my theories, although I have never researched it, is that the earliest forms of religion came about when humanity first began to ask, "where did we come from, and where do we go when we die". They can both be answered clinically, in regard to the start and end of life. Neither of those questions can be answered with any certitude when it comes to soul, or other qualities that make us human. From those two questions emerged all philosophy and religion. 

I am guessing a mix of correlation fallacies and cognitive biases contributed to the evolution of religion. It rained when we were dancing so we should do this dance again. Building a totem probably strengthened a community's bond and created a sense of purpose but the psychological effect just confirmed the community's belief that they were blessed by the gods.

It is interesting that a priestly class is found even in the most primitive societies.

[bluto 4929]

2 hours ago, Mo Horn said:

One of my theories, although I have never researched it, is that the earliest forms of religion came about when humanity first began to ask, "where did we come from, and where do we go 

That’s also essentially the chorus to Cotton Eyed Joe

[pyrohornIII 4814]

In my mind, at first humans learned just to survive on their own, or in small groups or families.    

Then they began to learn to work cooperatively and share different workloads.  

But then they needed laws to work under.. and that led to religion and laws for morality which tied to gods and fate.  

 

 

[F250 28775]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

I don't have a fear of dying per se, my only concern is a painful death. I prefer the idea of being done when I'm done and replenishing the soil. No embalming or fancy box, cremate me and return me to the earth. I'd honestly be fine just being buried without cremation as worm food but no fancy plot or cemetery and my guess is that it would be illegal, hence cremation. Still determining where I want my ashes spread, but I have made that decision final and told my wife and family.

The idea of "eternal life" in any context is horrifying to me. A consciousness with no end? At some point I'll get tired of it all. It's one reason I absolutely adore the tv show The Good Place. Spoilered for ending just in case.

  Reveal hidden contents

The series ending was perfect, probably the best of any show I can recall. Even heaven as we've come to describe it would get exhausting after some time and there should be a way for a final exit.

 

There was an episode of Star Trek Voyager called Death Wish that addressed this topic. A member of the Q considered immortality horrible and wished to die. A trial was held to argue the merits of immortality and death.

[F250 28775]

18 minutes ago, bluto said:

That’s also essentially the chorus to Cotton Eyed Joe

This version is stuck in my head now.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

3 hours ago, Hookah Horns said:

Religion is a reaction to the distressing knowledge that we're all going to die. 

And to our evolution from animal intelligence to human sentience, to where we have knowledge of our own mortality.

Genesis 2:15-17

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

What is the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” but a metaphor for our transition into self-awareness? One day we ate from that tree and became different from the other animals. We learned to think. But it also came with the knowledge that we’re eventually going to die.

[Neonmoon 38129]

32 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

In my mind, at first humans learned just to survive on their own, or in small groups or families.    

Then they began to learn to work cooperatively and share different workloads.  

But then they needed laws to work under.. and that led to religion and laws for morality which tied to gods and fate.  

 

 

There were laws and morals way before sky god made sky go boom boom 

[CooterBrown 18012]

Where can I do that? Not in the Bible, that’s for sure. No one who wrote anything in the Bible ever met Jesus. No one else has either. Certainly not Josephus. There is literally no evidence that the Jesus in the Bible ever existed. Maybe someone fitting that description did. Maybe he’s a composite of several itinerant preachers from the era. Maybe he’s a pure fabrication created by people who read the prophecies in old Jewish texts and invented that myth to fulfill predictions made by the myths that came before.
I say that there’s no such thing as an historical Jesus. “Prove me wrong.”
You can’t.

He was probably just some smuck preacher. He’s the only major religious figure that left zero writings. Everything written about him was decades after his death. No one thought enough of him to document anything during his life or immediately after. Odds are when early church founders needed their own figure to rally members around, they used him as the basis to build the myth.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

8 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

He was probably just some smuck preacher. He’s the only major religious figure that left zero writings. Everything written about him was decades after his death. No one thought enough of him to document anything during his life or immediately after. Odds are when early church founders needed their own figure to rally members around, they used him as the basis to build the myth.

When authors wrote about what he did when he was all alone and nobody was there to witness it, it’s sort of a dead giveaway that it was fiction. 

[Blotto 23511]

I've never been religiously inclined, but I will say that the ability to go out and drink, drug, fight, fuck, murder etc... and then just ask for God's forgiveness at the end of the day seems like a good way of dealing with guilt. Occasionally you will see interviews with people that did some heinous shit in their life, and they will launch into some rant about  "having had personal conversations with Jesus/My Lord/etc....I know that he has forgiven me. All good here!"

Also, the ability to write off unfortunate events as God's will rather than the result of personal stupidity seems like it would make it easier for stupid people and their relatives to get through life. There were plenty of anti-vax folks that died of Covid, and you would hear their families chime in with some variation of "its all part of god's plan, he's been called to a better place now." For some reason God's plan also included 220 million other Americans getting the vaccine so they could keep on living, and then of course there were the people that got the vaccine and died anyway. It all seems very complicated and somewhat arbitrary, but as a non believer, I don't get the newsletter.

But if people feel that tragic events were predetermined to happen, or part of a larger plan, I think it makes rolling with life's punches easier. Life can be capricious and cruel to some and quite grand for others. A cynic may attribute Bobby's death to the fifth of Jack the dumbass consumed prior to recreating some  GTA V stunt sequences, but the hopelessly religious will just attribute to some greater plan.

[TheRealRonWeaver? 1258]

1 hour ago, pyrohornIII said:

In my mind, at first humans learned just to survive on their own, or in small groups or families.    

Then they began to learn to work cooperatively and share different workloads.  

But then they needed laws to work under.. and that led to religion and laws for morality which tied to gods and fate.  

 

 

They sat in their cave hoping for protection from carnivores and prayed that a rock slide wouldn't close the cave entrance. When they woke up and saw nothing of them had been eaten and the entrance was still open, they found "God." That's what my mother told me.

Edited May 2, 2022 by TheRealRonWeaver?

[Nivek 16930]

2 hours ago, F250 said:

It is interesting that a priestly moochers class is found even in the most primitive societies.

common to human nature.   And I suppose scavengers kind of fall into this type of lifestyle as well. 

[Willfully Horn 8017]

52 minutes ago, Nivek said:

common to human nature.   And I suppose scavengers kind of fall into this type of lifestyle as well. 

The cuckoo is a pretty bird

And it warbles as it flies

Edited May 3, 2022 by Willfully Horn

[SimonBolivar 10958]

I've never really understood John 3:16...

Quote

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 Jesus is sitting next to God right now and forever. He didn't give him up.

Edited May 3, 2022 by SimonBolivar

[F250 28775]

3 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

And to our evolution from animal intelligence to human sentience, to where we have knowledge of our own mortality.

Genesis 2:15-17

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

What is the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” but a metaphor for our transition into self-awareness? One day we ate from that tree and became different from the other animals. We learned to think. But it also came with the knowledge that we’re eventually going to die.

This is how I interpret these verses. It's about the emergence of consciousness but not just the awareness of the self but also the responsibility of being a moral actor.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

25 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

I've never really understood John 3:16...

 Jesus is sitting next to God right now and forever. He didn't give him up.

Except Jesus is God and has been around forever. So he wasn’t really God’s son and he never actually died.

It’s bewildering. “Begotten?” Beget this you primitive, backwards-ass mystics.

[CooterBrown 18012]

I've never really understood John 3:16...

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 Jesus is sitting next to God right now and forever. He didn't give him up.

Inbred goat herders weren’t exactly well versed in assuring story continuity.

[ConferenceRoom 6141]

In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary, “Come again?”

[Jhawkmvp 1489]

10 hours ago, South Austin said:

God knows when you masturbate.

No way. I had the covers over me.

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Religions are the cloak for why we're discussing the revocation of women's right to choose what happens in their own body this morning.  And why many are guessing gay marriage is next on the chopping block.

 

[Mo Horn 8842]

6 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Religions are the cloak for why we're discussing the revocation of women's right to choose what happens in their own body this morning.  And why many are guessing gay marriage is next on the chopping block.

 

Yup. Very apropos thread, considering the last 24 hours. 

[hpslugga 4058]

Definitely book clubs

[Vegas64 675]

Religions are like when middle schoolers do the mock United Nations or Student Government. Children trying to establish and maintain an order that is beyond their scope in developed abilities.

Which is an interesting dilemma because while organized religions mostly suck and are deeply flawed (necessarily, because the people who make up the institutions are deeply flawed), I do believe we are called to be in community with other believers. No man is an island, indeed.

That said, "where two or more are gathered...", so have discernment and wisdom and just do your best to join the most life-giving "book club" you can, if your goal is to have as deep a spiritual connection to our creator that you can on this side of existence (and to come home, after you've materially passed).

[Lucid 3]

... not book clubs but mostly bullshit. Whether there is a kernel of something real there at the heart of it though I don't know.

 

On 5/2/2022 at 2:30 PM, WhatTheBuck said:

Where can I do that? Not in the Bible, that’s for sure. No one who wrote anything in the Bible ever met Jesus. No one else has either. Certainly not Josephus. There is literally no evidence that the Jesus in the Bible ever existed. Maybe someone fitting that description did. Maybe he’s a composite of several itinerant preachers from the era. Maybe he’s a pure fabrication created by people who read the prophecies in old Jewish texts and invented that myth to fulfill predictions made by the myths that came before.

I say that there’s no such thing as an historical Jesus. “Prove me wrong.”

You can’t.

You can say this about any historical figure or even any person you have never met personally. I think this sort of radical skepticism is fun to think about tbh maybe every single thing you have ever read in history books is BS

[956 Worldwide 34715]

18 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

He was probably just some smuck preacher. He’s the only major religious figure that left zero writings. Everything written about him was decades after his death. No one thought enough of him to document anything during his life or immediately after. Odds are when early church founders needed their own figure to rally members around, they used him as the basis to build the myth.

The Buddha did not leave behind any writings. Neither did Muhammad- Muslims will tell you that his companions wrote down what he dictated as the Koran because he couldn’t write. The Hadith are collected sayings that were written down later. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by 956 Worldwide

[crash_davis 23113]

18 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

When authors wrote about what he did when he was all alone and nobody was there to witness it, it’s sort of a dead giveaway that it was fiction. 

bro, were you even there?

[TheRealRonWeaver? 1258]

…going to get everyone killed.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

29 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

bro, were you even there?

No, and neither was he as far as we know.

[crash_davis 23113]

6 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

No, and neither was he as far as we know.

that is an old joke from when creationist 6000 year old earth and dinosaur existed while humans existed "debate" was going on. the creationists responses were basically, the bible says so, and bro, were you even there, then how could you know? 

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

17 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

that is an old joke from when creationist 6000 year old earth and dinosaur existed while humans existed "debate" was going on. the creationists responses were basically, the bible says so, and bro, were you even there, then how could you know? 

I know. 

[F250 28775]

4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The Buddha did not leave behind any writings. Neither did Muhammad- Muslims will tell you that his companions wrote down what he dictated as the Koran because he couldn’t write. The Hadith are collected sayings that were written down later. 

The same can be said of Socrates.

 

[Nivek 16930]

The Buddha did not leave behind any writings. Neither did Muhammad- Muslims will tell you that his companions wrote down what he dictated as the Koran because he couldn’t write. The Hadith are collected sayings that were written down later. 

I was born to lead not to read.

[Satchel 6938]

On 5/3/2022 at 9:09 AM, MC Fresh Breath said:

Religions are the cloak for why we're discussing the revocation of women's right to choose what happens in their own body this morning.  And why many are guessing gay marriage is next on the chopping block.

 

Judaism is a religion. 

[Brisketexan 105139]

21 hours ago, F250 said:

The same can be said of Socrates.

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33870]

 

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

4 hours ago, Satchel said:

Judaism is a religion. 

It’s also a race, for the most part. That doesn’t apply to any other religion or race. And unlike their Abrahamic cousins, they’re not trying to get you to join their religion. They’ll let you, if you try hard enough, but they’re not actively trying to convince you to join. (If I were in charge, I never would’ve let Ivanka join. Maybe the tests you have to pass for membership are easier than I thought.)

They also don’t have Heaven and Hell because, like the God they created commanded, they’re His chosen people, unlike the Christian and Muslim copycats who co-opted that myth. In Judaism, God made rules for how to behave in this world. In Christianity and Islam, God makes rules for how you must behave in this world or you’ll either burn in hell after you die if you were a bad little boy or girl, or you’ll enjoy everlasting salvation after you die if you were a good little boy or girl. (And don’t forget that Santa is keeping a list!)

 

[Satchel 6938]

2 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

It’s also a race, for the most part. That doesn’t apply to any other religion or race. And unlike their Abrahamic cousins, they’re not trying to get you to join their religion. They’ll let you, if you try hard enough, but they’re not actively trying to convince you to join. (If I were in charge, I never would’ve let Ivanka join. Maybe the tests you have to pass for membership are easier than I thought.)

They also don’t have Heaven and Hell because, like the God they created commanded, they’re His chosen people, unlike the Christian and Muslim copycats who co-opted that myth. In Judaism, God made rules for how to behave in this world. In Christianity and Islam, God makes rules for how you must behave in this world or you’ll either burn in hell after you die if you were a bad little boy or girl, or you’ll enjoy everlasting salvation after you die if you were a good little boy or girl. (And don’t forget that Santa is keeping a list!)

 

For someone who is clearly dismissive of religion(s) and who is uninterested in engaging in epistemological discussions about them, there has to be a reason why you seek out threads like this one.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

On 5/4/2022 at 9:51 PM, Satchel said:

For someone who is clearly dismissive of religion(s) and who is uninterested in engaging in epistemological discussions about them, there has to be a reason why you seek out threads like this one.

It’s a topic on a public discussion forum. What’s the problem? Does it make you feel threatened? You don’t seem to mind when I criticize Donald Trump in one of the threads devoted to him. You do the same thing. What is the reason you seek out threads like those?

Just because I don’t believe in religion doesn’t mean I can’t have an interest in and observations on the phenomenon of religion. I was raised in a religious household. I own a Bible. I know it better than most believers I encounter. Religion is a thing that exists in the world, one that I don’t think is particularly beneficial, and I will feel free to comment on it whenever I like despite the fact that it might ruffle the feathers of the superstitious. 

[F250 28775]

On 5/4/2022 at 6:17 PM, WhatTheBuck said:

It’s also a race, for the most part. That doesn’t apply to any other religion or race. And unlike their Abrahamic cousins, they’re not trying to get you to join their religion. They’ll let you, if you try hard enough, but they’re not actively trying to convince you to join. (If I were in charge, I never would’ve let Ivanka join. Maybe the tests you have to pass for membership are easier than I thought.)

They also don’t have Heaven and Hell because, like the God they created commanded, they’re His chosen people, unlike the Christian and Muslim copycats who co-opted that myth. In Judaism, God made rules for how to behave in this world. In Christianity and Islam, God makes rules for how you must behave in this world or you’ll either burn in hell after you die if you were a bad little boy or girl, or you’ll enjoy everlasting salvation after you die if you were a good little boy or girl. (And don’t forget that Santa is keeping a list!)

 

From what I understand they don't actively convert because their covenant is only meant for the Jews and no one else. My brother in law is a Noahide and was adopted by a Jewish family. He never converted but keeps the faith under the covenant of Noah. It's weird because it's a form of Judaism but he isn't Jewish.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

From what I understand they don't actively convert because their covenant is only meant for the Jews and no one else. My brother in law is a Noahide and was adopted by a Jewish family. He never converted but keeps the faith under the covenant of Noah. It's weird because it's a form of Judaism but he isn't Jewish.

They took Sammy Davis Jr. and they took Ivanka. I know it’s possible to convert to Judaism. But you’ll never see a Jew showing up on your doorstep trying to convert you. The “chosen people” aren’t proselytizing for converts.

Mormons, on the other hand. Good lord, give it a rest. Here’s a fun game to play with them. They always travel in pairs. Ask to borrow one of their copies of the Book of Mormon. (Better yet, ask them to give you one. I own a couple copies.) Challenge them to a game where you each open the book to a random page and see which one has more instances of, “And it came to pass.” Point out to them that their scripture is so obviously written by a human author, and not a very good author at that. They like that.

And to tie it all together, I had a couple Mormon missionaries who assured me that the Native Americans were Jewish and that’s why Jesus came to the New World to minister to them.

The shit people believe.

[hookemATL 11734]

Religions are cudgels used to demean, deny, and destroy.