Musk: American workers are lazy. Chinese workers are awesome.

[crash_davis 23,114]

I was going to put this in the Elon thread but figured this will turn into a boomers: young Americans are lazy af vs non-boomers: fuck working to make some asshole a billionaire thread. The reddit thread devolved into fuck capitalism, working for the man thread. 

TLDR: at a EV conference, Musk was talking about competitors to Telsa. He had this to say.

“I think there will be some very strong companies coming out of China, there is just a lot of supertalented hardworking people in China who strongly believe in manufacturing,” he added.

“They won’t just be burning the midnight oil, they will be burning the 3am oil, they won’t even leave the factory type of thing, whereas in America people are trying to avoid going to work at all.”

https://finance.yahoo.com/finance/news/elon-musk-tesla-boss-praises-182248534.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cucmVkZGl0LmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAL2iNW8Z-3pSEsHAywLXroR6d-4bb7y5P5HTcvw-RqpFUdUkWaBZAOpYBFSgqOUCxmust2BHM7E896_951hPGpji0AwmXsLPjCI-fs3yvzVXSvBsw0VypeBhd0GzckIaPO4RnIGgJEDuIayr7y5fqQQYMB9dOL10ApQUpGHQ97Ie&guccounter=2

 

I used to manage offices in HK and Beijing. The culture is different there. You have to work hard or someone is going to take your job. The country as a whole went from agricultural revolution straight into the technology revolution. They have a hundreds of millions of people coming out of the farmlands looking for better jobs/lives in manufacturing. They are willing to work their asses off because the alternative is starving in a field somewhere. This is China's gift and curse onto the world: unlimited cheap labor.

Huawei started 9-9-6, which means 9AM-9PM, 6 days a week. They kicked everyone's asses in 5G tech and hardware because of it. Other Chinese companies followed that practice. I think the Chinese gov't just recently cracked down on 9-9-6. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by crash_davis

[DaysOff 7,966]

Fuck Musk and fuck China. These people are going to lay on their death bed like sorch and wonder if they wasted their lives working so much.

[Wally Fairway 5,571]

Hey, don't post that crap here.

Nobody want to hear the truth

[bschoolprof 6,271]

Fuck Musk and fuck China. These people are going to lay on their death bed like sorch and wonder if they wasted their lives working so much.

Username and whatnot.

[Brothahorn 10,087]

With regards to the young vs old debate: There have always Americans who were lazy/did just enough to get by. Society just wasn't as accepting of it so much.

[Js1 85,478]

Billionaire business owner laments American workers wanting an actual work/life balance instead of working until they die in an early grave and miss important moments in life because it might make him slightly less richer.

[Schulz2.0 29,000]

The younger Chinese are less of fans of the 9-9-6.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/22/touching-fish-craze-see-chinas-youth-find-ways-to-laze-amid-996-work-culture

[Revolution512 1,494]

2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Billionaire business owner laments American workers wanting an actual work/life balance instead of working until they die in an early grave and miss important moments in life because it might make him slightly less richer.

You must not manage much of today’s workforce 

[Js1 85,478]

1 minute ago, Revolution512 said:

You must not manage much of today’s workforce 

What a predictable response.  The young generation is just so lazy and entitled for not wanting to work for shitty wages, shitty hours, shitty working conditions and shitty bosses. 

Some people truly cannot handle workers finally standing up for themselves to prevent the owners from stepping on their necks and breaking their backs for more profit the workers never see. 

Username does not check out in this case.   

[Pato del Muerto 52,553]

15 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

Hey, don't post that crap here.

Nobody want to hear the truth

Wally, aren’t you in detroit surrounded by UAW people?

[crash_davis 23,114]

Just now, longhornmatt said:

So, Twitter banning people is an unacceptable evil that Elon must cure, but sweatshops and concentration camps in China just get a tip of the cap and praise for how the Chinese really get their workers to burn the 3am oil!

He will never say anything critical of China as long as he has manufacturing there.  The whole world is disgusting in how we treat China.  China commits equally bad atrocities on its own people as what Russia is doing to Ukrainians - and actually on an even larger scale - and everyone just makes excuses for China because we need them economically.  Uighurs don’t count as long as they were born on the Chinese side of the border, I guess.

Like i said, China has a billion people willing to work for cheap wages. Their gift and curse onto the world. The world "needs" China. We (anyone who buys almost anything) need China in that we need China to make cheap shit so that we can buy more of that cheap shit. We created and maintain China.

[Revolution512 1,494]

6 minutes ago, Js1 said:

What a predictable response.  The young generation is just so lazy and entitled for not wanting to work for shitty wages, shitty hours, shitty working conditions and shitty bosses. 

Some people truly cannot handle workers finally standing up for themselves to prevent the owners from stepping on their necks and breaking their backs for more profit the workers never see. 

Username does not check out in this case.   

Your response is equally predictable. That really doesn’t address the issue at all. More hot air

[You don't know me 1,161]

I honestly don't think it's a generational thing.  Not wanting to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week does not make a person lazy.  Working 72 hours a week makes a person miserable.  Not wanting to work a normal full-time job makes someone lazy.  There are lazy people in all generations. 

I did the 12x6 thing for about 8 years of my life.  I was overseas, so the family life thing was already out of sorts, but it still fucking sucked.  I got out of that about 9 years ago and haven't looked back.  I also haven't been back into the office since covid started.  I've also changed jobs and my current employer doesn't even have an office.  I now work between 45-50 hours a week, but I'm also at home.

Bottom line, there are lazy people in every generation.  There are also hard workers in every generation. 

[Serak The Preparer 3,431]

31 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Huawei started 9-9-6, which means 9AM-9PM, 6 days a week. They kicked everyone's asses in 5G tech and hardware because of it. Other Chinese companies followed that practice. I think the Chinese gov't just recently cracked down on 9-9-6. 

Hmm, ask Cisco why they grew so quickly in 5G and networking equipment. I don't think 9-9-6 will be the first response.

[Buzzrock 14,936]

Pretty flimsy article. Is that all he said? It wasn’t exactly praise.

A lot of Chinese work harder than Americans. That is not news. A pack of animals under the same whip will pull pretty hard.

[SimonBolivar 10,958]

2 minutes ago, Revolution512 said:

That really doesn’t address the issue at all. More hot air

Doesn't it though? Just because it isn't what you want or isn't a solution to productivity issues doesn't mean it avoids the issue. Most of us want to live a life of leisure as much as possible and do the things we enjoy doing. I've read one approach on the issue that focused on the shift in America to placing self value and identity in leisure after industrialization as the nation switched from agriculturalism to wage earning. (1) By having a culture that isn't identifying with the work we do then it's only natural that we'll find our identity in things we do outside of the workplace and want to do those as much as possible. In China it seems that with their culture the worker has melded the party's message of unity with their workplace and take more pride in their company's products and success. As an American, I really don't care how the various businesses that I've worked for fared as long as I continued to get paid.

 

(1) Bederman, Gail. Manliness and Civilization: A Cultural History of Gender and Race in  
the United States, 1880–1917. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1995.

[bschoolprof 6,271]

These lazy kids need to bust their ass just like we do, arguing for 9 hours a day with strangers on the internet.  

[statsman 5,474]

Until China learns to protect property rights (including intellectual property), their potential growth is limited. 

[Brothahorn 10,087]

I honestly don't think it's a generational thing.  Not wanting to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week does not make a person lazy.  Working 72 hours a week makes a person miserable.  Not wanting to work a normal full-time job makes someone lazy.  There are lazy people in all generations. 
I did the 12x6 thing for about 8 years of my life.  I was overseas, so the family life thing was already out of sorts, but it still fucking sucked.  I got out of that about 9 years ago and haven't looked back.  I also haven't been back into the office since covid started.  I've also changed jobs and my current employer doesn't even have an office.  I now work between 45-50 hours a week, but I'm also at home.
Bottom line, there are lazy people in every generation.  There are also hard workers in every generation. 

You earned it by the work/sacrifices you made for 8 years.

The problem comes when some folks believe they are entitled to where you are now.

[StruggleBus 3,922]

8 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

These lazy kids need to bust their ass just like we do, arguing for 9 hours a day with strangers on the internet.  

While billing their clients $400 per hour

[crash_davis 23,114]

17 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Hmm, ask Cisco why they grew so quickly in 5G and networking equipment. I don't think 9-9-6 will be the first response.

Cisco is playing catch up to Huawei and other companies in 5G network equipment. Huawei's 5G growth is slowed by the US gov't blacklisting them. 

[You don't know me 1,161]

10 minutes ago, statsman said:

Until China learns to protect property rights (including intellectual property), their potential growth is limited. 

They don't recognize intellectual property rights of non-Chinese citizens either.  Fuck them.

[crash_davis 23,114]

23 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Pretty flimsy article. Is that all he said? It wasn’t exactly praise.

A lot of Chinese work harder than Americans. That is not news. A pack of animals under the same whip will pull pretty hard.

there's huge the difference.

the us pack animals would all quit and no one goes anywhere. everyone loses.

the china pack has 10 animals ready for every one that quits. their pack is getting to their destination. 

[bullzak 422]

People worked hard in the gulag too. Nothing to aspire to though. 

They work like that in China because there is no other option. 

Manufacturing is becoming more automated by the day. Factor in shipping from China to US and I don't think that trade is so hot right now. 

[Parliament 14,282]

1 hour ago, crash_davis said:

...they won’t even leave the factory type of thing...

Because the doors are locked shut, Elon. I'm a Musk fan, but he needs to walk this back.

[crash_davis 23,114]

1 minute ago, bullzak said:

People worked hard in the gulag too. Nothing to aspire to though. 

They work like that in China because there is no other option. 

Manufacturing is becoming more automated by the day. Factor in shipping from China to US and I don't think that trade is so hot right now. 

true. companies all over are moving and/or finding alternate diverse manufacturing in other countries. unfortunately it takes years and heavy capital to build and train new manufacturing plants. due to covid, the world realized that they need to move away from China as single source manufacturer. the sooner we all do this, the better we all will be.

[Revolution512 1,494]

39 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Doesn't it though? Just because it isn't what you want or isn't a solution to productivity issues doesn't mean it avoids the issue. Most of us want to live a life of leisure as much as possible and do the things we enjoy doing. I've read one approach on the issue that focused on the shift in America to placing self value and identity in leisure after industrialization as the nation switched from agriculturalism to wage earning. (1) By having a culture that isn't identifying with the work we do then it's only natural that we'll find our identity in things we do outside of the workplace and want to do those as much as possible. In China it seems that with their culture the worker has melded the party's message of unity with their workplace and take more pride in their company's products and success. As an American, I really don't care how the various businesses that I've worked for fared as long as I continued to get paid.

 

(1) Bederman, Gail. Manliness and Civilization: A Cultural History of Gender and Race in  
the United States, 1880–1917. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1995.

No, it doesn’t. The biggest issue I see is entitlement and unrealistic expectations. Folks entering the workforce aren’t willing to get ahead, put the work in to separate from peers. One huge fucking problem….they don’t have a skill set. They need that from the employer too. Learn, then make demands or address what you see is “unfair”

Edited May 11, 2022 by Revolution512

[Buzzrock 14,936]

8 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Because the doors are locked shut, Elon. I'm a Musk fan, but he needs to walk this back.

He didn’t say anything (or wasn’t quoted) about why they work so hard. That’s why I said the article was flimsy. 

[Brisketexan 105,195]

9 minutes ago, Revolution512 said:

No, it doesn’t. The biggest issue I see is entitlement and unrealistic expectations. Folks entering the workforce aren’t willing to get ahead, put the work in to separate from peers. One huge fucking problem….they don’t have a skill set. They need that from the employer too. Learn, then make demands or address what you see is “unfair”

You're not wrong......but dig deeper as to why that is.  Loyalty to employees, taking care of them, fairly compensating them, treating them as assets to be invested in instead of expenditures to be minimized or disposed of......those things have dramatically declined.  When the employer-employee relationship becomes brutally transactional and transactional only, we shouldn't be surprised when the labor side of the equation takes that to heart and acts accordingly.

If management doesn't give a 1/10th of a fuck about taking care of its employees, why should its employees give 1/10th of a fuck about helping management's business any more than the minimum required to earn their paycheck?  Every day at work is a separate transaction.  Management doesn't advance the employees.  Employees have no interest in advancing the business.  I turn my wrench, I get my check.  Repeat.  Don't expect anything else.  And I will do as little as I can to get that check, because you have made it clear you'll pay me as little as possible to turn my wrench.

Treating employees as opex instead of capex is a bad move, but it's the dominant culture now.  And we're reaping what we've sown.

[Larry T. Spider 1,747]

I see both sides of it. I certainly have managed my fair share of people that think that the employer should kiss their ass just for showing up, while they provide very minimal quality. I do feel like I have seen more of this attitude over the past 5 years. But I also see productive people being asked to carry all the weight, working ridiculous hours, and gaining almost nothing from it. 

I don’t really have a solution but it seems to be a management culture issue in the US. I’ll blame HR.

[clapclapclap 9,000]

35 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

there's huge the difference.

the us pack animals would all quit and no one goes anywhere. everyone loses.

the china pack has 10 animals ready for every one that quits. their pack is getting to their destination. 

We need a separate Simple Jack forum.

[crash_davis 23,114]

1 minute ago, Larry T. Spider said:

I see both sides of it. I certainly have managed my fair share of people that think that the employer should kiss their ass just for showing up, while they provide very minimal quality. I do feel like I have seen more of this attitude over the past 5 years. But I also see productive people being asked to carry all the weight, working ridiculous hours, and gaining almost nothing from it. 

I don’t really have a solution but it seems to be a management culture issue in the US. I’ll blame HR.

you're blaming the wrong people. blame consumers and the quest for margins and stock price.

most consumers worldwide buy based on price. this mostly applies to consumer goods but also applies to b2b, enterprise products. when maximizing shareholder wealth is THE objective, everything is looked upon as costs. people are no longer assets. they are costs which are easily removed as needed.

carvana just laid off 2,500 people. apparently almost no one knew about it including senior management. 

[The Dog 44,074]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I turn my wrench, I get my check.  Repeat.  Don't expect anything else.  And I will do as little as I can to get that check, because you have made it clear you'll pay me as little as possible to turn my wrench.

Succinct and on point. 

[wildcat09 29,363]

Just now, The Dog said:

Succinct and on point. 

Someone must've stolen Brisket's login.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

Elon is an Aspie. His neuro-diverse lens is an asset and a curse. He says the quiet part out loud. He is better grounded in the nuance of humanity when he has an intuitive and empathetic sounding board.

The interdependence of China and Musk remains a work in progress. There is a narrow path he must walk to make it work. The odds are against him. 
 

~ Musings from the Piedmont

[Vegas64 677]

There are a lot of younger people who have never professionally lived through a recession who are about to have a rude awakening. Summer children of the “more jobs than people” buyers market has many people in many industries accustomed to being sought after and accommodated with increasing perks and many options to leave for more money, faster career growth, or just the first slight to their ego.

Attitudes change quickly when employers tighten their belts, freeze hiring and then start laying off and all of a sudden that crappy job seems like a pretty good deal.

Einstein had a story about a hand on a stove that highlights the phenomenon better than me, but that’s my opinion.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Vegas64

[South Austin 52,546]

The American working ethos all went to shit after Office Space.

[F250 28,809]

“They won’t just be burning the midnight oil, they will be burning the 3am oil, they won’t even leave the factory type of thing, whereas in America people are trying to avoid going to work at all.”

 

[Brisketexan 105,195]

9 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

There are a lot of younger people who have never professionally lived through a recession who are about to have a rude awakening. Summer children of the “more jobs than people” buyers market has many people in many industries accustomed to being sought after and accommodated with increasing perks and many options to leave for more money, faster career growth, or just the first slight to their ego.

Attitudes change quickly when employers tighten their belts, freeze hiring and then start laying off and all of a sudden that crappy job seems like a pretty good deal.

Einstein had a story about a hand on a stove that highlights the phenomenon better than me, but that’s my opinion.

There's also something to this.  Management treats labor like a disposable commodity with no loyalty, AND labor can freely exercise its "no loyalty" path by just jumping to another easily available job.  Ironically, we see management bitching about that a good deal lately -- "we can't get people to come work here/stay here!"

Ironically, it's also made it difficult for management that does NOT want to treat its employees like a commodity, and wants to invest in them: employees have a pretty entrenched worldview now that they are just guns for hire for the next paycheck, without much vision for long-term career development (because hey, we can't count on management to invest in developing us and our careers, so that's not a thing anymore).  It's a challenge on the hiring side for sure -- it's like dealing with a dog that's been beaten.  Getting it to trust you, and realize that you're going to do your best to take care of them, develop them, and give them a good place to build their career is an uphill climb.  And you can't even blame the dog -- it's based on pretty solid experience and perception.

It's but one of many things that's askew in our current economic model.  That Elon admires that -- and admires the extreme of that skewing -- is on-brand.

[closetohumping 17,456]

[South Austin 52,546]

2 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

[fattyflattie 4,638]

2 hours ago, Js1 said:

he young generation is just so lazy and entitled for not wanting to work for shitty wages, shitty hours, shitty working conditions and shitty bosses. 

People are generally paid what they are worth, or more, in the US.  I'm sorry you think someone building a sandwich should make $20/hr, but left to the markets, I bet I could find a good godamned sandwich maker for about $9. They have the ability at any time to go to law school and get paid $400/hr to post on Surly if the $9 doesn't suit their desired lifestyle. I'd of loved to live the IG lifestyle in my early 20's too, but traveling to shithole countries to remove them of their hydrocarbons paid better. 

[bullzak 422]

27 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

There are a lot of younger people who have never professionally lived through a recession who are about to have a rude awakening. Summer children of the “more jobs than people” buyers market has many people in many industries accustomed to being sought after and accommodated with increasing perks and many options to leave for more money, faster career growth, or just the first slight to their ego.

Attitudes change quickly when employers tighten their belts, freeze hiring and then start laying off and all of a sudden that crappy job seems like a pretty good deal.

Preach it. I graduated college in 1983 oil bust, and law school in 1991 recession. Took forever to gain any real career traction. You get a real recession and there will be some attitude adjustment across the board. We probably need it. Just way too much money sloshing around has warped everyones sense of economic value of both capital and labor. 

[Buzzrock 14,936]

“They won’t just be burning the midnight oil, they will be burning the 3am oil, they won’t even leave the factory type of thing, whereas in America people are trying to avoid going to work at all.”
 

Being an asshole doesn’t always make you wrong (new motto?)

Topical:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10799057/amp/Apples-head-machine-learning-quits-come-office-two-days-week.html

[washparkhorn 9,939]

Are we sure it wasn’t Chinese Elon making the comment?

[crash_davis 23,114]

2 minutes ago, bullzak said:

Preach it. I graduated college in 1983 oil bust, and law school in 1991 recession. Took forever to gain any real career traction. You get a real recession and there will be some attitude adjustment across the board. We probably need it. Just way too much money sloshing around has warped everyones sense of economic value of both capital and labor. 

yall forget the shitshow that was 2008 and the following years. and 2002 before that. 

if you are in your 40s and older, you've lived through some significant recessions. i'd argue that instead of making you feel that having a job is blessing, you realize that jobs are a necessary evil to living life, if you are lucky to make enough money to live a decent life. you realize that no matter how well you do your job, when the time comes through no control of your own, you are just a number on a balance sheet that one day needs to be balanced. 

[fattyflattie 4,638]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

If management doesn't give a 1/10th of a fuck about taking care of its employees, why should its employees give 1/10th of a fuck about helping management's business any more than the minimum required to earn their paycheck?  Every day at work is a separate transaction.  Management doesn't advance the employees.  Employees have no interest in advancing the business.  I turn my wrench, I get my check.  Repeat.  Don't expect anything else.  And I will do as little as I can to get that check, because you have made it clear you'll pay me as little as possible to turn my wrench.

This has always been the case.  There are only so many corner offices, and companies still take the best and groom them for advancement.  Fuck some companies has separate little divisions for them when they hire you right out of school.   Nearly every company has people they absolutely want to keep and move up the ranks.  They also have a bunch of less talented folks that should be happy they have figured out how to turn that wrench and be paid for it.  We have ALOT of people who are certain they bring a lot more to the table than they actually do.  

[Brothahorn 10,087]

I turn my wrench, I get my check.  Repeat.  Don't expect anything else.  And I will do as little as I can to get that check, because you have made it clear you'll pay me as little as possible to turn my wrench.
Treating employees as opex instead of capex is a bad move, but it's the dominant culture now.  And we're reaping what we've sown.

Semi understandable for a worker who's been doing the same thing for a number of years. They tried but just can't get over the hump.

Terrible outlook for a young worker, who won't take advantage when there is an opportunity available.

We have a clerk who wants learn how to dispatch. But she has this crazy idea that she should get a raise first. Instead of learning the job first, then negotiating. I tried to help out by explaining that if she didn't like what we offered, she still had the experience. And could take it with her wherever she went. She still clerking.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

2 hours ago, Brothahorn said:

With regards to the young vs old debate: There have always Americans who were lazy/did just enough to get by. Society just wasn't as accepting of it so much.

that's such fucking garbage. there has never been more focus on efficiency and production per employee than right now. for fuck's sake employees used to go get drunk at lunch and/or drink in the office.

 

[wildcat09 29,363]

Wages increase for a couple of years and a bunch of upper middle class types start talking about how the working poor need to feel more pain. You love to see it.