Musk: American workers are lazy. Chinese workers are awesome.

[Js1 85636]

1 minute ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

that's such fucking garbage. there has never been more focus on efficiency and production per employee than right now. for fuck's sake employees used to go get drunk at lunch and/or drink in the office.

 

Used…to?

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Just now, Js1 said:

Used…to?

but seriously...go booze at lunch and come back to the office and your ass is fired. was SOP up until probably the early-90s.

[F250 28829]

4 minutes ago, closetohumping said:

Reminds me of the time I used to run network security for a company with a bunch of offices in Japan. Management in Japan kept complaining about their employees fucking off on 2channel and other similar sites. My team running the content gateways struggled to block these guys out because of the use of Japanese characters in the urls.

I ended up having to hire a security analyst in Japan to run shit to keep things locked down.

I remember thinking "these fuckers are supposed to be Gung Ho. They aren't Gung Ho they just spend all day surfing the internet for Manga porn."

 

[fattyflattie 4638]

1 minute ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

that's such fucking garbage. there has never been more focus on efficiency and production per employee than right now. for fuck's sake employees used to go get drunk at lunch and/or drink in the office.

 

We've had that at 2 of the 5 places I've been. One was old school like you are talking, beer fridges in office for 5pm, ok to have beers at lunch.  The other was new wave have to keep the kids interested in their jobs because 150k wont keep them here long type with local beers and whatnot.  

[Celery Man 21018]

I agree with the boomers that America should be more like China

[crash_davis 23118]

4 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

that's such fucking garbage. there has never been more focus on efficiency and production per employee than right now. for fuck's sake employees used to go get drunk at lunch and/or drink in the office.

 

back in early 2000s, the guys in our Sydney office would drink almost everyday at lunch. sometimes on conference calls, you could tell that they'd had a few. they even had beers in the office fridge. i had to be THE guy who flew there to tell them that they had to stop drinking during work hours and remove alcohol from company fridge. 

[Brisketexan 105465]

10 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

 

 

Semi understandable for a worker who's been doing the same thing for a number of years. They tried but just can't get over the hump.

Terrible outlook for a young worker, who won't take advantage when there is an opportunity available.

We have a clerk who wants learn how to dispatch. But she has this crazy idea that she should get a raise first. Instead of learning the job first, then negotiating. I tried to help out by explaining that if she didn't like what we offered, she still had the experience. And could take it with her wherever she went. She still clerking.

 

Yep.  The thinking has become skewed and warped all the way around.  Not sure what kind of correction will help smooth it out, but I suspect it will be a brutally painful one for all concerned, management and labor.

[Brothahorn 10087]

that's such fucking garbage. there has never been more focus on efficiency and production per employee than right now. for fuck's sake employees used to go get drunk at lunch and/or drink in the office.
 

What does that have to laziness/less than average work not being some new generational trend?

Are you trying to that there no more lazy workers out there? Cause that would be garbage.

[F250 28829]

15 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Being an asshole doesn’t always make you wrong (new motto?)

Topical:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10799057/amp/Apples-head-machine-learning-quits-come-office-two-days-week.html

He is wrong and an asshole.

That article isn't really relevant. Ian Goodfellow quitting his job would be like a nationally renowned neurosurgeon quitting a hospital. They can walk away because of their specialized talent is highly sought after by other employers.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

7 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

What does that have to laziness/less than average work not being some new generational trend?

Are you trying to that there no more lazy workers out there? Cause that would be garbage.

I'm saying that workers back in the day were every bit as lazy and probably more so than folks now.

 

[Murfdogg21 4432]

I finished my BS in spring 2003 and PhD in spring 2008, probably the two worst times to be looking for a job this century. I guess turning 40 makes me an olds (at least I’m a man now), but the last few years have been eyebrow raising to watch new hires in their 20s act like they are irreplaceable, should work no more than 35 hour weeks (9-5 with AT LEAST an hour lunch), and need semiannual raises and promotions while actively shopping for their next job. There could be a painful reckoning if a full blown recession hits, especially for all the ones who just way overextended themselves on a mortgage recently. 
 

For the record, I have always been in the “work smart, not hard/long” camp (insert TWSS). If my direct reports get their shit done, I don’t care what hours they keep. OTOH, this is tied to the bigger (negative) issues in society brought on by the internet and social media. People used to save and be fiscally responsible, especially for big purchases. Now everyone wants immediate gratification and thinks they deserve the nice things they see others have (houses, cars, iPhones, vacations, whatever). I cannot imagine the scale of house foreclosures and auto repossessions next year if the big one hits. 

[gsoda3 3284]

to sum up the past 63 posts, no one disagrees with what elon said but there are a few who are triggered.

[F250 28829]

11 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

I guess turning 40 makes me an olds (at least I’m a man now), but the last few years have been eyebrow raising to watch new hires in their 20s act like they are irreplaceable, should work no more than 35 hour weeks (9-5 with AT LEAST an hour lunch), and need semiannual raises and promotions while actively shopping for their next job. There could be a painful reckoning if a full blown recession hits, especially for all the ones who just way overextended themselves on a mortgage recently. 
 

This is just the natural response to the ebb and flow of the demand and supply of labor. We've all seen it play out. Expectations of workers decrease when the economy tanks then increase when the economy booms.

As to the other part. That is the tough lesson that you learn not to get caught with your pants down. Unfortunately not everyone learns that lesson. I know a guy that works in sales in his 60’s that never seems to learn to prepare for the hard times.

 

[Brothahorn 10087]

I'm saying that workers back in the day were every bit as lazy and probably more so than folks now.
 

The laziness between generations might be equal. But the attitude towards them is more acceptable, today. The producers are still producing (along with automation). But the meanderers are now being told it's okay and in some cases being paid for it.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

Bunch of Surly fuckers bitching as they post from work. 

[mdmost 43060]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

Bunch of Surly fuckers bitching as they post from work. 

Thank you. The irony was so thick that Alanis could put it in her song and it could be actual irony and not just something that sucks. 

[Bateshorn 9942]

And yet, for all the candle they burn at both ends, they still can’t come up with a half effective Covid vaccine and are still reliant on total shutdowns to fight the disease.

Just steal the Pfizer vaccine already and let’s be done with this. 

[workswithseed 2122]

2 hours ago, You don't know me said:

They don't recognize intellectual property rights of non-Chinese citizens either.  Fuck them.

Commies through and through.

[RPM 26368]

Elon's not wrong. Our workforce is shit right now. I work a pretty easy jobsite in private security that does require basic current computer computer skills and the ability to troubleshoot /solve problems on the fly. You have to hit the curveballs. But the other 90% of the time you're watching Netflix to kill time until shift reports. In the last 3 months I've trained 4 different people for supervisory positions and all 4 have quit after being turned loose on their own. We aren't building spaceships or nuclear reactors. Just keep the perimeter clear and send an email when you do something. My rule is treat 'em all like 4 Year Olds and everything's gonna be alright.

[Fudge Nuggets 19229]

2 hours ago, Revolution512 said:

No, it doesn’t. The biggest issue I see is entitlement and unrealistic expectations. Folks entering the workforce aren’t willing to get ahead, put the work in to separate from peers. One huge fucking problem….they don’t have a skill set. They need that from the employer too. Learn, then make demands or address what you see is “unfair”

I haven't seen that at all at my place.

Sounds like you should stop hiring shitheads.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Just steal the Pfizer vaccine already and let’s be done with this. 

Chinese knockoff vaccine kills 3 million. Film at 11.

[RPM 26368]

7 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Bunch of Surly fuckers bitching as they post from work. 

Fuck you I posting from home after after work drinking. Fight me.

[strangulation! 1716]

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

Used…to?

[crash_davis 23118]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

Chinese knockoff vaccine kills 3 million. Film at 11.

Xi: Thank god. 3M fewer mouths to have to feed.

[closetohumping 17484]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

There's also something to this.  Management treats labor like a disposable commodity with no loyalty, AND labor can freely exercise its "no loyalty" path by just jumping to another easily available job.  Ironically, we see management bitching about that a good deal lately -- "we can't get people to come work here/stay here!"

Ironically, it's also made it difficult for management that does NOT want to treat its employees like a commodity, and wants to invest in them: employees have a pretty entrenched worldview now that they are just guns for hire for the next paycheck, without much vision for long-term career development (because hey, we can't count on management to invest in developing us and our careers, so that's not a thing anymore).  It's a challenge on the hiring side for sure -- it's like dealing with a dog that's been beaten.  Getting it to trust you, and realize that you're going to do your best to take care of them, develop them, and give them a good place to build their career is an uphill climb.  And you can't even blame the dog -- it's based on pretty solid experience and perception.

It's but one of many things that's askew in our current economic model.  That Elon admires that -- and admires the extreme of that skewing -- is on-brand.

In the software sales world, they're at least pretending to care.

[52-80 19271]

3 hours ago, crash_davis said:

. The reddit thread devolved into fuck capitalism, working for the man thread. 

My surprised face:

[52-80 19271]

3 hours ago, DaysOff said:

These people are going to lay on their death bed like sorch and wonder if they wasted their lives working so much.

Americans telling people in underdeveloped world scrapping to feed themselves, “you wasted yer life working bud”…..

[Nivek 17001]

2 hours ago, Brothahorn said:

 

 

You earned it by the work/sacrifices you made for 8 years.

The problem comes when some folks believe they are entitled to where you are now.

 

They are entitled to it.  I made a larger work-life balance sacrifice and I was an idiot for accepting it.  People not wanting to being run ragged, having no life, no family time, should not be the norm in the wealthiest nation on earth especially during a time where there are billionaires competing on pet projects for making rockets and corporations are raking it in.    That isn't putting in time, that is being taken advantage of.   One anecdote: after being on the job for 29 hours, my boss called me up to tell me that he needed me to put in a little more effort.  And he laughed about how it would impact my bonus and his bonus which is much bigger.  He wanted me to drive 3 hours, fly 3 hours home, and then work all weekend.  He expected me to complete a 36 hours of work, and to arrive home on Saturday afternoon and start working all weekend on another project that needed about 40 hours of work to complete and have that done by Monday.   

[workswithseed 2122]

8 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

My surprised face:

That interview was amazing. The biggest take away for me was "laziness is a virtue." really scraped my skull with that phrase.

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

It all comes back to a sense of overall dissatisfaction. It is now official -- most people in greater Houston -- not the city itself, but the city and many shitty enclaves, can no longer afford to live there. Either the rent is too damn high or the wages are too damn low or both. One or both of those items needs to be addressed real soon or this country is going to be even more of a shitshow than it has of late.

I mean, yeah, $20/hour probably is too much to pay a Subway employee, but when that doesn't cover rent, what good is it?

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

[TwiceHorn 31624]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

There's also something to this.  Management treats labor like a disposable commodity with no loyalty, AND labor can freely exercise its "no loyalty" path by just jumping to another easily available job.  Ironically, we see management bitching about that a good deal lately -- "we can't get people to come work here/stay here!"

Ironically, it's also made it difficult for management that does NOT want to treat its employees like a commodity, and wants to invest in them: employees have a pretty entrenched worldview now that they are just guns for hire for the next paycheck, without much vision for long-term career development (because hey, we can't count on management to invest in developing us and our careers, so that's not a thing anymore).  It's a challenge on the hiring side for sure -- it's like dealing with a dog that's been beaten.  Getting it to trust you, and realize that you're going to do your best to take care of them, develop them, and give them a good place to build their career is an uphill climb.  And you can't even blame the dog -- it's based on pretty solid experience and perception.

It's but one of many things that's askew in our current economic model.  That Elon admires that -- and admires the extreme of that skewing -- is on-brand.

And it's not just a "millenial" thing.  The number of people switching jobs in the "telecom/dotcom" era was staggering.  And these people are now middle-aged and were engineer-types, who were the loyal types, for the most part.  People would literally cross the street in SV, and Far North Dallas and double their salary.  And do it twice in five years.  Or more.

[52-80 19271]

My favorite trope is the /r/expats crowd where half the posts are: “im 25 with an associates degree in literature, i need to get out of america its too fascist and capitalist, where should i go?”

its like, yeah, i heard in turkey and hungary and everywhere else employers do not care about optimizing for profits and theyre just dying to throw money at foreigners with no discernable skills and cant speak the language.  it will work out great for you. 

[DaysOff 7978]

The American working ethos all went to shit after Office Space.

He'll, even I do that.

[Brisketexan 105465]

8 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

I mean, yeah, $20/hour probably is too much to pay a Subway employee, but when that doesn't cover rent, what good is it?

This is really important -- it's the unstoppable force meets immovable object conundrum.

Wages paid to workers just translates into "the amount workers have to spend on the basics."  Doesn't matter if it's in dollars, pesos, or items for barter.  And if the translation of the wages into the stuff they have to spend it on (housing often being the biggest chunk) results in a shortfall, then it doesn't matter if the wage paid is $8 an hour, $20, or $50.  "Not enough" is not enough.

The housing affordability crisis has ripples and will have ripples that will act like tsunamis, economically.

And this does tie back to workers putting in more time, etc.  If the push is "work more, work harder," but even that won't be enough to pay your rent.....then fuck it.  Shit, I remember feeling that way in some past bad relationships.  When she demanded more and more from me, but I knew that no matter what I did, she was going to find fault and it was never going to be enough.....fuck it, I'm out.  In the wage/housing case, it may not be the employer's fault that even a generous wage won't get an employee where the employee needs to be, but the employer is going to have to deal with that fallout just the same.

[MrBig 5447]

Large corporations are fucking stupid and have no concept of what it’s like to work at an operations level. 

The company I work for used to be a small regional US company and was bought out by a huge multinational corporation. After the switch, we went from 40-50 applicants a month to 5-10. Maybe 3-5 will bother to show up for an interview. Corporate recruiting sucks shit now. They can’t even hire the right people to hire the right people. 

I went from picking and choosing the best people (who eventually left for better pay) to now being desperate to hire anyone just to help make production quotas. 

I have some people who don’t show up at least once a month. I would love to fire them but I can’t because I need the bodies. I also have some killer workers who could do the job of 2 people, but the company refuses to give them OT. These guys would work 70+ hours a week if they could but aren’t allowed. I’m going to lose them soon because they’ve maxed out their raises and promotions.

There are people out there who want to work, they just know they’re worth more than what companies are squeezing out of their cheap labor. 

[Celery Man 21018]

if you are loyal (and I mean loyal, I don't mean possessing of basic integrity) to your employer in 2022, generally speaking you are a fucking sucker. We can talk about laziness and how modern society and the internet and attention spans and etc etc etc but a big part of this is motivation, and if you stop at "workers are shitty" when trying to understand why people are unwilling to do what they were more willing to do 50 years ago, you are stupid, a natural bootlicker, or very likely both.

[DaysOff 7978]

MAC says people are paid what they're worth. Bullshit I says. You're paid what you negotiate. He must think CEOs really bring 50MM dollars of value or work to the table. They negotiate that contract just like the Mannings are negotiating 13MM for their 17 year old. The answer is unions and collective bargaining, but a certain party demonized that word 50 years ago. Good luck to you all.

[F250 28829]

9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

And it's not just a "millenial" thing.  The number of people switching jobs in the "telecom/dotcom" era was staggering.  And these people are now middle-aged and were engineer-types, who were the loyal types, for the most part.  People would literally cross the street in SV, and Far North Dallas and double their salary.  And do it twice in five years.  Or more.

I believe the culture of job hoping is a Gen-X thing or started with us. Corporate culture changed as Gen-X entered the labor market. Switching jobs was just a means of getting more money. It was also really magnified in the tech industry because of the high job demand. Even now applicants that haven't regularly changed jobs are scrutinized because they are perceived as lacking talent. If they were good someone would have poached them away.

[F250 28829]

10 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

He'll, even I do that.

Aren't you a pilot?

[Vegas64 678]

12 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

if you are loyal (and I mean loyal, I don't mean possessing of basic integrity) to your employer in 2022, generally speaking you are a fucking sucker. We can talk about laziness and how modern society and the internet and attention spans and etc etc etc but a big part of this is motivation, and if you stop at "workers are shitty" when trying to understand why people are unwilling to do what they were more willing to do 50 years ago, you are stupid, a natural bootlicker, or very likely both.

I agree. It's bad personal business.

Again, though, we have a generation of folks (2010 grads and beyond) who have known nothing but a bull market that rains money and opportunity. It's like being on a heater at the blackjack table for 10 hands in a row and never having lived through a couple of bad beats and losing decks. When it comes, attitudes and mindsets will shift, both from employers and employees. 

Our economy is a dynamic one with ebbs and flows and puts and takes and puts and pulls-- to think we were just going to grow forever because TINA or Financial Manifest Destiny is silly and for the younger folks unless they take heed from their seniors, parents, elders, mentors whomever, they have to live through bear markets and recessions before they get their arms around what the American economy, jobs, etc. is really about. In my opinion.

And it's going to get really bad for the younger generation as we head into the recession. There are like three well written articles out the past two weeks alone about how Generation Z's or Alphas whatever they are called, are already over their skis in the boom times! The Buy Now Pay Later companies like Affirm, Afterpay, Klarna, etc.

"few of the services do significant credit checks, which would help determine whether people will be able to repay the loans. And plenty of people are spending more than they can afford: 43% of Gen Z users have missed at least one payment, according to a survey by the polling site Piplsay. Of Gen Z consumers who used a point-of-sale loan for something they needed, 30% missed at least two payments, according to a survey by Credit Karma."

Attitude adjustments are coming.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Vegas64

[fattyflattie 4638]

42 minutes ago, Nivek said:

They are entitled to it.  I made a larger work-life balance sacrifice and I was an idiot for accepting it.  People not wanting to being run ragged, having no life, no family time, should not be the norm in the wealthiest nation on earth especially during a time where there are billionaires competing on pet projects for making rockets and corporations are raking it in.    That isn't putting in time, that is being taken advantage of.   One anecdote: after being on the job for 29 hours, my boss called me up to tell me that he needed me to put in a little more effort.  And he laughed about how it would impact my bonus and his bonus which is much bigger.  He wanted me to drive 3 hours, fly 3 hours home, and then work all weekend.  He expected me to complete a 36 hours of work, and to arrive home on Saturday afternoon and start working all weekend on another project that needed about 40 hours of work to complete and have that done by Monday.   

Are you me?  

[RDCanecutter 26484]

2 hours ago, South Austin said:

The American working ethos all went to shit after Office Space.

That was my first office job. I was the art department at a tech company (Apple IIE holla, plus a bespoke vector graphics computer built for us in Huntsville) and I would finish all my tasks by 3pm because I'm fast, then I would look busy until 5, playing with the software until I found ways to be done by 2, by noon, etc.

There was no true internet to dawdle on, so I ask to "study" the artwork in games, or rewrite the Basic in Brickout to get 1000 balls. 

But the emblem of that wasted time was when I stuck an Exacto blade straight up in the wooden sill of my sunny window, and marked the hours off on its shadow as a sundial. When I think of stultifying work boredom, I still see that blade casting a shadow, and hear the Bangles through long-gone headphones.

[Brisketexan 105465]

9 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

When I think of stultifying work boredom, I still see that blade casting a shadow, and hear the Bangles through long-gone headphones.

The Bangles, you say?

[Bateshorn 9942]

1 hour ago, RPM said:

Elon's not wrong. Our workforce is shit right now. I work a pretty easy jobsite in private security that does require basic current computer computer skills and the ability to troubleshoot /solve problems on the fly. You have to hit the curveballs. But the other 90% of the time you're watching Netflix to kill time until shift reports. In the last 3 months I've trained 4 different people for supervisory positions and all 4 have quit after being turned loose on their own. We aren't building spaceships or nuclear reactors. Just keep the perimeter clear and send an email when you do something. My rule is treat 'em all like 4 Year Olds and everything's gonna be alright.

 

[RDCanecutter 26484]

Back to China, if we want to compare work habits apples-to-apples, it's 2020s China vs 1920s US. As in, "how hard do people work in factories when the alternative is starving on the farm?"

Hopefully the current Chinese see their sacrifices succeed to the point that their grandchildren can also turn down jobs.

[RDCanecutter 26484]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The Bangles, you say?

When the hero takes a fall.

 

[Nivek 17001]

36 minutes ago, F250 said:

I believe the culture of job hoping is a Gen-X thing or started with us. Corporate culture changed as Gen-X entered the labor market. Switching jobs was just a means of getting more money. It was also really magnified in the tech industry because of the high job demand. Even now applicants that haven't regularly changed jobs are scrutinized because they are perceived as lacking talent. If they were good someone would have poached them away.

We didn't start it, we were forced into it.  At 19 I had to apply somewhere else and get offered a job in order for my current company to promote me.  That system was in place before I entered the market.  We just weren't told about it.  

[MrBig 5447]

14 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Back to China, if we want to compare work habits apples-to-apples, it's 2020s China vs 1920s US. As in, "how hard do people work in factories when the alternative is starving on the farm?"

Hopefully the current Chinese see their sacrifices succeed to the point that their grandchildren can also turn down jobs.

Do they still have those suicide nets around the Apple factory in China? 

[High Plains Drifter 11054]

5 hours ago, DaysOff said:

Fuck Musk and fuck China.

 

qfmft