Musk: American workers are lazy. Chinese workers are awesome.

[Nivek 16986]

56 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Are you me?  

If you seriously worked like this you know how it hollows you out after weeks on end.  A one off event sucks, but 20 hour shifts for 14 days is brutal and difficult to understand.  It shouldn't be this way for you.  

[F250 28820]

15 minutes ago, Nivek said:

We didn't start it, we were forced into it.  At 19 I had to apply somewhere else and get offered a job in order for my current company to promote me.  That system was in place before I entered the market.  We just weren't told about it.  

I didn't say we started it just that it started as Gen-X entered the market. A small generation of young people doesn't have the power to make that kind of change. It was just the cards that we were dealt.

 

[Brisketexan 105340]

4 minutes ago, F250 said:

I didn't say we started it just that it started as Gen-X entered the market. A small generation of young people doesn't have the power to make that kind of change. It was just the cards that we were dealt.

The fucking Gen-X motto.  Lectured endlessly by Boomers about how THEY had it, and how easy it was (e.g., $400 a semester college tuition), and why can't we do things just like they did, even though they built completely different systems for us to enter and deal with.

The current generation is a little bit of both -- rolling with the punches of a system not of their own making, AND not aware how good they have it in other respects.  A system that treats its workers exclusively as opex and not capex makes for a mercenary climate all around, and Gen Z would be stupid not to play by the rules of that climate.  BUT, a strong job market makes it a lot easier for them to be mercenaries.  When that option dries up for a time (and it always does, at some point or another), they're going to realize they've been playing with some pretty good cards for a while.  Both things are true.

[DigglerontheHoof 21247]

2 hours ago, closetohumping said:

In the software sales world, they're at least pretending to care.

Same here.  We have some really sharp hard working folks under 35.  They bust their asses and make good money.

[956 Worldwide 34774]

Musk can eabod. I love how it never crosses his mind to not make his Chinese employees live in a fucking sweatshop, it’s all about how Americans should race to the bottom just like them. People who think this way are assholes. 

[Foosters 17889]

[Guest]

6 hours ago, DaysOff said:

Fuck Musk and fuck China. These people are going to lay on their death bed like sorch and wonder if they wasted their lives working so much.

Sorch?

[clapclapclap 9000]

I'm gonna go a little N. Korea in the Boomers-Zoomers war:

 

[DaysOff 7975]

Sorch?

Fucking tapa. Now get back to work. Day's only half done.

[Underdog 28773]

4 hours ago, South Austin said:

You make me raugh.  Good little movie with Mimi Rogers to boot. 

[CHIEF 5095]

2 hours ago, RDCanecutter said:

That was my first office job. I was the art department at a tech company (Apple IIE holla, plus a bespoke vector graphics computer built for us in Huntsville) and I would finish all my tasks by 3pm because I'm fast, then I would look busy until 5, playing with the software until I found ways to be done by 2, by noon, etc.

There was no true internet to dawdle on, so I ask to "study" the artwork in games, or rewrite the Basic in Brickout to get 1000 balls. 

But the emblem of that wasted time was when I stuck an Exacto blade straight up in the wooden sill of my sunny window, and marked the hours off on its shadow as a sundial. When I think of stultifying work boredom, I still see that blade casting a shadow, and hear the Bangles through long-gone headphones.

I had a friend, that had a philosophy that people should be paid by the widget, and not hourly. If you could get your 100 widgets completed in 4 hours, that's how much you worked. If it took you 10 hours, that's how much you worked, or you were paid only for the widgets you completed in an 8 hour typical work day. The objective was that employees, not employers, would be the one that determined their hourly rate, and that workers would strive to become more efficient to work less hours, or work longer hours to produce more widgets.

CHIEF

[Brisketexan 105340]

2 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

I had a friend, that had a philosophy that people should be paid by the widget, and not hourly. If you could get your 100 widgets completed in 4 hours, that's how much you worked. If it took you 10 hours, that's how much you worked, or you were paid only for the widgets you completed in an 8 hour typical work day. The objective was that employees, not employers, would be the one that determined their hourly rate, and that workers would strive to become more efficient to work less hours, or work longer hours to produce more widgets.

CHIEF

What you're describing is piece work.  It can work.  It even makes logical sense.  But humans regularly turn it into a shitshow.   Because it's not just that you are paid by the piece....your employment depends on ever-increasing minimum productivity amounts.

Produce your expected 600 widgets in 6 hours instead of 8?  Cool....now you have to produce a minimum of 800 widgets per day, or you lose your job.  Produce your 800 widgets in 8 hours, you get paid more, so that's nice, but 1) you've lost the ability to only work 6 hours a day, and 2) if you only produce 799 one day, you lose your job.

By the same token, minimum production quotas make sense, and are even necessary, because the enterprise has to know with some certainty how many widgets it will crank out per day.  Bottom line, I just don't trust ANYONE not to engage in next-level fuckery in this economic and social climate.  Life and American society are a zero sum game now, and if you're not fucking over someone else, then you're the one being fucked over.

[FartingMonk 3608]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

What you're describing is piece work.  It can work.  It even makes logical sense.  But humans regularly turn it into a shitshow.   Because it's not just that you are paid by the piece....your employment depends on ever-increasing minimum productivity amounts.

Produce your expected 600 widgets in 6 hours instead of 8?  Cool....now you have to produce a minimum of 800 widgets per day, or you lose your job.  Produce your 800 widgets in 8 hours, you get paid more, so that's nice, but 1) you've lost the ability to only work 6 hours a day, and 2) if you only produce 799 one day, you lose your job.

By the same token, minimum production quotas make sense, and are even necessary, because the enterprise has to know with some certainty how many widgets it will crank out per day.  Bottom line, I just don't trust ANYONE not to engage in next-level fuckery in this economic and social climate.  Life and American society are a zero sum game now, and if you're not fucking over someone else, then you're the one being fucked over.

I had this discussion with my buddy the other day and I used an example of when we were in the navy.  We first started loading tomahawks.   115 of them and they said hey 25 days.  They said sure.  Well the next time they had to load it.  They said 22 days.  Then the next time they said 19 and so on until it got down to 9 days.  And it was the Admiral asking the Captains if they could do it.  No captain dared to say no because they all wanted that promotion.  What they didn't tell people was how they got it down to 9 days.  And the way they did it.  The crews basically work 24 hours a day with people getting maybe 2-3 hours a day and then cutting out the safety margins.  Now if anything went wrong the captains would have said well we didn't hear any complaints about it.  It wasn't until an inspection team had heard about it and someone with balls said.  Hey this is really fucking stupid.

[CHIEF 5095]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

What you're describing is piece work.  It can work.  It even makes logical sense.  But humans regularly turn it into a shitshow.   Because it's not just that you are paid by the piece....your employment depends on ever-increasing minimum productivity amounts.

Produce your expected 600 widgets in 6 hours instead of 8?  Cool....now you have to produce a minimum of 800 widgets per day, or you lose your job.  Produce your 800 widgets in 8 hours, you get paid more, so that's nice, but 1) you've lost the ability to only work 6 hours a day, and 2) if you only produce 799 one day, you lose your job.

By the same token, minimum production quotas make sense, and are even necessary, because the enterprise has to know with some certainty how many widgets it will crank out per day.  Bottom line, I just don't trust ANYONE not to engage in next-level fuckery in this economic and social climate.  Life and American society are a zero sum game now, and if you're not fucking over someone else, then you're the one being fucked over.

This model, to me, gives the most flexibility to the employee. It is in their best interest to stay productive and efficient since they are either rewarded with less work hours or more income. It's not the answer for all, or even most vocations, but for manufacturing it could be a real boost to "made in the USA".

CHIEF

[Brisketexan 105340]

2 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

This model, to me, gives the most flexibility to the employee. It is in their best interest to stay productive and efficient since they are either rewarded with less work hours or more income. It's not the answer for all, or even most vocations, but for manufacturing it could be a real boost to "made in the USA".

CHIEF

All it takes is good-faith players on both sides of the transaction.

I believe that our current culture, both social and economic, is not just not good-faith, it's openly hostile to it.  It is transactional and zero-sum to the extreme, "I'm only winning if you're losing."  I have little faith in any such transaction having good-faith players on both sides.

You are speaking of an ideal -- one that I can't disagree with, because it does make sense on paper.  I'm just looking at the personnel on the field, and I don't think they'll be able to execute the gameplan.  They'll resort to utter fuckery as soon as the opening whistle blows.

[RDCanecutter 26473]

46 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

I had a friend, that had a philosophy that people should be paid by the widget, and not hourly. If you could get your 100 widgets completed in 4 hours, that's how much you worked. If it took you 10 hours, that's how much you worked, or you were paid only for the widgets you completed in an 8 hour typical work day. The objective was that employees, not employers, would be the one that determined their hourly rate, and that workers would strive to become more efficient to work less hours, or work longer hours to produce more widgets.

CHIEF

Yeah, in that 1980s job, I made state maps for touch-screen consoles in interstate welcome areas, which, once done, occasionally needed tweaks. My main work was making art for whatever business our advertising guys had sold to that week-- there was no bank of digital art for shortcuts, most of what I did was raw, "invent the wheel" stuff. So I'd finish that, then do whatever odds and ends they needed at the company, and... twiddle until 5.

I actually wanted more work. Later at that job some guys I knew who'd gone with the other half of the business when it had split like an amoeba contacted me for freelance art using the same machines, and I stayed til late at night to make more money, naively thinking I could just freelance from my company desk after hours. My boss found out and blew his top-- I wasn't supposed to be working for another pimp-- but he was mostly pissed at the guys who hired me. He instituted an Art Service Fee for our company to finish the art on their project, and cut me a higher rate out of it.

So that was my tale of tech intrigue. Before long the company folded, and they remodeled the building and there's a Mexican restaurant there. I ate there, and tried to get a table close to my old desk, which alas would be suspended in air since they knocked out the second floor to make the ground floor ceiling higher. Maybe somewhere under the foundation my old Exacto blade sun dial now rests.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

All it takes is good-faith players on both sides of the transaction.

 

My employer has a reputation for paying well and working your ass off for it.  It's not for everyone and I respect that.  I do believe they live by this tenet  in your post.

Edited May 11, 2022 by slorch

[CooterBrown 18029]

People used to save and be fiscally responsible, especially for big purchases. Now everyone wants immediate gratification and thinks they deserve the nice things they see others have (houses, cars, iPhones, vacations, whatever). I cannot imagine the scale of house foreclosures and auto repossessions next year if the big one hits. 

That’s a bit of a boomer avocado toast perspective.

I’d bet savings rates would be the same or higher than a generation ago if housing, school loans, and car prices didn’t take up double the percentage of income as of 25 years ago.

[Bateshorn 9942]

Salary work is for chumps, and I say that as a salary worker.

The goal is to extract the maximum amount of compensation from your employer for the least amount of work. They are trying to do the reverse. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Bateshorn

[Brisketexan 105340]

3 minutes ago, slorch said:

My employer has a reputation for paying well and working your ass off for it.  It's not for everyone and I respect that.  I do believe they live by this tenet  in your post.

And I am an employer, and we very much try to live by that.  But man, are we having to deal with the fallout of all the folks who don't, and the climate and attitude among potential employees that has created.  When all the dogs around have been beaten by every person they encounter, it's really hard convincing them that you're different and can be trusted.

[CooterBrown 18029]

I think hidden in Elon’s rant is that what he really means is that employees no longer put up with corporate abuse like in the past. Plenty are willing to work hard but the expectation is that they share in the rewards. He wants the good old days when you could treat everyone like shit and they’d still work for you for 20 years while being satisfied with a 3% annual raise.

[MrBig 5440]

46 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

I had this discussion with my buddy the other day and I used an example of when we were in the navy.  We first started loading tomahawks.   115 of them and they said hey 25 days.  They said sure.  Well the next time they had to load it.  They said 22 days.  Then the next time they said 19 and so on until it got down to 9 days.  And it was the Admiral asking the Captains if they could do it.  No captain dared to say no because they all wanted that promotion.  What they didn't tell people was how they got it down to 9 days.  And the way they did it.  The crews basically work 24 hours a day with people getting maybe 2-3 hours a day and then cutting out the safety margins.  Now if anything went wrong the captains would have said well we didn't hear any complaints about it.  It wasn't until an inspection team had heard about it and someone with balls said.  Hey this is really fucking stupid.

Working hard just fucks you in the long run. After our corporate takeover, the quality manager in my production unit quit. We rallied the ops team to help the remaining quality associates and production did not drop. Eventually the rest of the quality associates quit. Now there is nobody in the quality department. It’s been 2 years. Corporate expects ops to do our job plus the job of the quality department. I’m not getting paid double. When external audits point out deficiencies, I refer them to our quality department. All the quality people who apply with corporate get placed in other units with lower production levels. We are punished for being competent and able to still produce in a dysfunctional way. They won’t even let my good employees get OT. Corporations suck.

[Biff Tannen 45742]

7 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

I'm sorry you think someone building a sandwich should make $20/hr, but left to the markets, I bet I could find a good godamned sandwich maker for about $9. They have the ability at any time to go to law school and get paid $400/hr to post on Surly if the $9 doesn't suit their desired lifestyle

I feel this is not correct

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And I am an employer, and we very much try to live by that.  But man, are we having to deal with the fallout of all the folks who don't, and the climate and attitude among potential employees that has created.  When all the dogs around have been beaten by every person they encounter, it's really hard convincing them that you're different and can be trusted.

I laughed at baby bonding 5-6-7 years ago.  Now, even our front line, entry level folks get 6 weeks, if they want it. 

We interview those same folks and tell them the workweek averages 50 hours.  Some are cool with it.  Some say that is a showstopper and the discussion is over.  I get it.  lotsa folks are looking for 35 hours and benefits.  That's tough to do as an employer.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, MrBig said:

Working hard just fucks you in the long run.

Maybe in that case.

Disagree with it as a blanket statement.

[Biff Tannen 45742]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

Salary work is for chumps, and I say that as a salary worker.

The goal is to extract the maximum amount of compensation from your employer for the least amount of work. They are trying to do the reverse. 

This is how I do it.  I'm not great at it, but it works for me.

[Brothahorn 10087]

The whole not allowing employees to get OT is just crazy to me. One of our selling points is the OT. If I guy can't get 45 hours, then that's on him. Off the top of my head I'd say we average 45'ish per guy(30 men). But we charge enough to cover it(whole different conversation). And If I took OT away, I'd probably lose some good people. 

[workswithseed 2111]

Just now, Brothahorn said:

The whole not allowing employees to get OT is just crazy to me. One of our selling points is the OT. If I guy can't get 45 hours, then that's on him. Off the top of my head I'd say we average 45'ish per guy(30 men). But we charge enough to cover it(whole different conversation). And If I took OT away, I'd probably lose some good people. 

Hell yeah OT is awesome. I'd walk away from my current job if they took it away. 

[DaysOff 7975]

Salary work is for chumps, and I say that as a salary worker.
The goal is to extract the maximum amount of compensation from your employer for the least amount of work. They are trying to do the reverse. 

I was just going to post this. Unless your last name is on the company letterhead, your only function as an employee is to extract as much money and benefits with the least amount of effort. Find a steep slope on the money-effort graph.

[Guest]

I've been a salary worker for over 20 years.

I do manage my work-life balance MUCH better than I used to.  That being said, I make my own schedule and still work 2 weekend days a month in the market, because that's what we do.  They tried to float the idea of making every 3rd weekend mandatory, and they got a resounding, "Fuck no."  I told them i work those days because I feel it makes a difference in my end results.  There is a payoff in the relationship with my customers and my team.  The timing is still at my discretion.  Straight up said if they added mandatory days, i would exercise them as flex days, also  at my discretion.  That ended with a  funny reaction...

To their credit, they responded in a positive manner to our feedback and shitcanned the proposal.

[Celery Man 20997]

15 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

The whole not allowing employees to get OT is just crazy to me. One of our selling points is the OT. If I guy can't get 45 hours, then that's on him. Off the top of my head I'd say we average 45'ish per guy(30 men). But we charge enough to cover it(whole different conversation). And If I took OT away, I'd probably lose some good people. 

I’m assuming this is a Hot Cops franchise so they’re probably doing pretty good on tips as well

[FartingMonk 3608]

Overtime is what made me quit my last job.  I understand sometimes you have to work overtime.  But they instituted a forced overtime policy and on a Dupont schedule.  So I was basically doing 7-8 12s with a day off before switching from day shift to night shift or vice versa.   It wouldn't be so bad if they scheduled it in advanced but a lot of it was with no notice and at the last minute. The body can only take so much.  I ended up doing that for a year and a half.  The final straw was I had a trip planned and asked if they were going to schedule me and they said no.  At the very last minute they scheduled me.  I asked and got told "too bad". I called in sick that day.  I was scheduled.  Came back from my trip and put in my two weeks.  Management asked what did we do wrong and how do we get you to stay.  By that time it was too late.   

At my new job I enjoy it.  It pays just as well and I actually feel kind of bad because I have such distrust of management from my previous employer.

[Js1 85577]

43 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I feel this is not correct

It’s not. It’s completely out of touch. The sandwich maker should just take on debt and go to law school. Duh! Bootstraps! 

But it’s the same guy who said a family of 4 cannot possibly live in anything less than 3500 sq feet. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Js1

[Updawg 2286]

As long as wall st is happy

[Celery Man 20997]

I wonder how all the class of 08-09 kids who pivoted to law school when they dipped their toes in the job market are doing now. I think it was rough for a bit but I’ve lost touch with most of the ones like that who I knew personally.

[Brothahorn 10087]

27 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I’m assuming this is a Hot Cops franchise so they’re probably doing pretty good on tips as well

LOL. Nah, just logistics 90% containerized cargo. Maybe because it's tied so much to the POH & union, OT is just part of the day. A 10 hour day is nothing to those guys.

 

We don't force OT because we don't need to. There are always plenty of takers. And I try my best to never do that. I've been there, done that and it sucks. But, if we have to we have to. And I always try to make sure the guys get extra compensation.

 

Old or young, I do notice that the guys who don't take advantage of the OT are the first to start talking about a raise. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Brothahorn

[DaysOff 7975]

I've been a salary worker for over 20 years.
I do manage my work-life balance MUCH better than I used to.  That being said, I make my own schedule and still work 2 weekend days a month in the market, because that's what we do.  They tried to float the idea of making every 3rd weekend mandatory, and they got a resounding, "Fuck no."  I told them i work those days because I feel it makes a difference in my end results.  There is a payoff in the relationship with my customers and my team.  The timing is still at my discretion.  Straight up said if they added mandatory days, i would exercise them as flex days, also  at my discretion.  That ended with a  funny reaction...
To their credit, they responded in a positive manner to our feedback and shitcanned the proposal.

The day after you die they'll replace you without a thought or a fuck given. Fucke em all.

[Sawbonz 27589]

9 hours ago, Js1 said:

Billionaire business owner** laments American workers wanting an actual work/life balance instead of working until they die in an early grave and miss important moments in life because it might make him slightly less richer.

**who got his seed money from daddy's African forced labor emerald mines

[fattyflattie 4638]

27 minutes ago, Js1 said:

But it’s the same guy who said a family of 4 cannot possibly live in anything less than 3500 sq feet. 

Is that one still over your head. I mean every single other poster caught it. Maybe re-read that portion of the thread again. Take another crack at it and let me know. 

[F250 28820]

56 minutes ago, MrBig said:

Working hard just fucks you in the long run. After our corporate takeover, the quality manager in my production unit quit. We rallied the ops team to help the remaining quality associates and production did not drop. Eventually the rest of the quality associates quit. Now there is nobody in the quality department. It’s been 2 years. Corporate expects ops to do our job plus the job of the quality department. I’m not getting paid double. When external audits point out deficiencies, I refer them to our quality department. All the quality people who apply with corporate get placed in other units with lower production levels. We are punished for being competent and able to still produce in a dysfunctional way. They won’t even let my good employees get OT. Corporations suck.

Whenever you work for a company being purchased it is usually a good idea to already have one foot out the door. The one time I decided to stay was because of a nice raise and a retention bonus. The transition was a shit show and sounded like what you describe. I bounced at 12 months and made it a rule to GTFO when these things happen.

 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

The day after you die they'll replace you without a thought or a fuck given. Fucke em all.

Agreed.  What’s that have to do with what I posted?

If I didn’t love what I do I wouldn’t do it. I’m absolutely replaceable, but they haven’t done so in 28 years. I don’t get the mindset that it’s “ Me against my employer,” or let me just say I recognize I am lucky not to feel that way.  What do they owe me if I am not working any more? I work. They pay me.  It’s a two-way street. If I don’t like it, I am fucking gone.

Edited May 12, 2022 by slorch

[Sawbonz 27589]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

Salary work is for chumps, and I say that as a salary worker.

The goal is to extract the maximum amount of compensation from your employer for the least amount of work. They are trying to do the reverse. 

All the 8:30 to 5:30 posts on Surly by salaried workers suggest they are holding their own in the struggle

[MrBig 5440]

42 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

**who got his seed money from daddy's African forced labor emerald mines

We can’t talk about the emerald mines without the thread becoming CR. 

[Thatguy 8862]

     There is little to no loyalty in the business world. Back in our parents day one could work themselves up from the mail room through intelligence and hard work. Now companies are looking to lower their wage output while still getting the same productivity. We are the suckers who were the guinea pigs for the current business model. However, the generation after that has been briefed on the lack of loyalty so now they come in leveraging their skills against potential earnings and hopping companies to increase income. Now everyone wants to be mad when that's the monster they created by doing anything and everything they could not to pay someone. Tough luck motherfuckers. Maybe you should've thought the shit through.

[Guest]

There's been a lot of discussion about colleges and whatnot on this board.  How do the little Surlians appear to be poised for the job world these days?

I 'll tell you straight up I can get good results from a newhire out of college. I get excited about what the future holds for them as they begin their careers.  I know in the current environment, it tends to be 2-3 years and then turn and burn.  I don't hold that against them.  I don't see it as laziness.  It's cultural and expectations of the day.  That doesn't mean I don't try like hell to keep the good ones.  Those relationships/ challenges are part of what I enjoy about the job.

Noobs aren't inherently lazy.  Some of their expectations might be "whack' vs when we started; but I still feel most folks, regardless of age want to do well at work.

[Brisketexan 105340]

     There is little to no loyalty in the business world. Back in our parents day one could work themselves up from the mail room through intelligence and hard work. Now companies are looking to lower their wage output while still getting the same productivity. We are the suckers who were the guinea pigs for the current business model. However, the generation after that has been briefed on the lack of loyalty so now they come in leveraging their skills against potential earnings and hopping companies to increase income. Now everyone wants to be mad when that's the monster they created by doing anything and everything they could not to pay someone. Tough luck motherfuckers. Maybe you should've thought the shit through.

A large serving of this. When businesses collectively lean hard into treating labor as disposable, a cost to be eliminated, and something to be squeezed for every last ounce of productivity possible, labor learns. Contempt and lack of loyalty breeds contempt and lack of loyalty.

[CooterBrown 18029]

     There is little to no loyalty in the business world. Back in our parents day one could work themselves up from the mail room through intelligence and hard work. Now companies are looking to lower their wage output while still getting the same productivity. We are the suckers who were the guinea pigs for the current business model. However, the generation after that has been briefed on the lack of loyalty so now they come in leveraging their skills against potential earnings and hopping companies to increase income. Now everyone wants to be mad when that's the monster they created by doing anything and everything they could not to pay someone. Tough luck motherfuckers. Maybe you should've thought the shit through.

Your company and coworkers are not family and are not your friends. Fuck company culture. It’s all a smoke screen to make you feel like the company invests in you and isn’t taking advantage of you. Your employment is a business contract and nothing more. You will do X for Y. If either party doesn’t like X or Y, that contract ends. Management asking you do XX for Y would be called scope creep and shut down quickly if the roles were reversed. Management exists for only one reason, to maximize profit. HR exists for one reason, to minimize company risk. They’ll never side with an employee on any issue. The employee must put themselves first because no one else will.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Your company and coworkers are not family and are not your friends. Fuck company culture. It’s all a smoke screen to make you feel like the company invests in you and isn’t taking advantage of you. Your employment is a business contract and nothing more. You will do X for Y. If either party doesn’t like X or Y, that contract ends. Management asking you do XX for Y would be called scope creep and shut down quickly if the roles were reversed. Management exists for only one reason, to maximize profit. HR exists for one reason, to minimize company risk. They’ll never side with an employee on any issue. The employee must put themselves first because no one else will.

On many levels I agree with you.

All the same, that has not been my experience. I have had mentors who invested in me.  I have mentored many, many others. The daily challenge of my job is to make a better place to work for my team.  I'm pretty fucking decent at it. When you go to a guy's retirement celebration and they tell your wife what a difference you made in their career, I'm sorry but there's some substance there. She's heard it multiple times. Keep in mind, most retirees have been there longer than I have.  I certainly didn't "fuck them out the door."

  I am part of a group of over 1000 retirees/ veterans/ old timers who cuss and discuss work in our private group all the time.  There are several, several folks who I would drop my shit and go help if they were in a bind. I try to go back to Houston once a year, and I always make time for 4-5 retirees/ buddies from work.  Yeah, we worked together for years, but it's the mutual respect and relationships that keep us in touch.

None of that ongoing culture happens if we're just trying to fuck everyone, every step of the way.   I am not dismissing your experience, but wholly fuck, it sounds unlivable.

Edited May 12, 2022 by slorch

[Surly Bevo 25153]

So much good old day syndrome.  Management has no loyalty to employees, corporations just use you up, etc. That is true to an extent, but I also kind of wonder....when was this good old day when workers were treated with so much more loyalty and respect than they are now?

I'm pretty sure it wasn't during the Industrial Revolution or the 100 years following it. Was it when woman and people of color had a much harder time finding employment much less advancing in said employment?   Or maybe it was when sexual harassment was a hush hush free for all that never got exposed to the light of day?  Or was it when if something like Covid hit, oh say like a great flu (there have been several) it was still "uh yea get your ass to work."  Was it when the idea of mental health care, childcare services, legal services, corporate paid life insurance, tuition reimbursement, etc were not even a thought on management's mind?  Was it when the idea of flexible work schedules were only for those hippie technology companies?

Look there is still plenty abuse and malfeasance to go around but I guess I fail to understand exactly when the hell people are talking about when they wax poetically about this magical time of sunshine and lollipops when there was more loyalty and respect for workers.   We talking about defined pensions?  Or something different?  

I think a lot of things have actually improved.  We got a ways to go and there are always still the truly horrible things that you hear and see popping up, BUT as with most stuff there isn't any fun in not bitching and moaning and acknowledging the progress that has been made.  

[FartingMonk 3608]

6 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Your company and coworkers are not family and are not your friends. Fuck company culture. It’s all a smoke screen to make you feel like the company invests in you and isn’t taking advantage of you. Your employment is a business contract and nothing more. You will do X for Y. If either party doesn’t like X or Y, that contract ends. Management asking you do XX for Y would be called scope creep and shut down quickly if the roles were reversed. Management exists for only one reason, to maximize profit. HR exists for one reason, to minimize company risk. They’ll never side with an employee on any issue. The employee must put themselves first because no one else will.

That is exactly what I learned when I left my last job.  They talk culture.  They aren't about it.  We had a dude who was there for 28 years.  He talked loyalty and how we were this and that.  He made an off cuff remark and got canned.  

 

Another thing I learned is what I should have learned when I was in the navy.  When they just start feeding you out of the blue.  Be prepared to get screwed