Musk: American workers are lazy. Chinese workers are awesome.

[Thatguy 8816]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

On many levels I agree with you.

All the same, that has not been my experience. I have had mentors who invested in me.  I have mentored many, many others.  When you go to a guy's retirement celebration and they tell your wife what a difference you made in their career, I'm sorry but there's some substance there.  I am part of a group of over 1000 retirees/ veterans/ old timers who cuss and discuss work in our private group all the time.  There are several, several folks who I would drop my shit and go help if they were in a bind. I try to go back to Houston once a year, and I always make time for 4-5 retirees/ buddies from work.  Yeah, we worked together for years, but it's the mutual respect and relationships that keep us in touch.

None of that ongoing culture happens if we're just trying to fuck everyone, every step of the way.   I am not dismissing your experience, but wholly fuck, it sounds unlivable.

 Then you need to get out more often because nowadays it is seen as stagnation to be at the same gig for more than 5 years in a lot of professions, and kids have to leverage their current gig against the next to get more money. Companies try to hire you low and give you minimal bumps year over year no matter the talent level. Then when they hit their perceived ceiling for your position they will try to force you out in favor of a lower salary then rinse and repeat. That's how we got where we are.

[Thatguy 8816]

4 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

So much good old day syndrome.  Management has no loyalty to employees, corporations just use you up, etc. That is true to an extent, but I also kind of wonder....when was this good old day when workers were treated with so much more loyalty and respect than they are now?

I'm pretty sure it wasn't during the Industrial Revolution or the 100 years following it. Was it when woman and people of color had a much harder time finding employment much less advancing in said employment?   Or maybe it was when sexual harassment was a hush hush free for all that never got exposed to the light of day?  Or was it when if something like Covid hit, oh say like a great flu (there have been several) it was still "uh yea get your ass to work."  Was it when the idea of mental health care, childcare services, legal services, corporate paid life insurance, tuition reimbursement, etc were not even a thought on management's mind?  Was it when the idea of flexible work schedules were only for those hippie technology companies?

Look there is still plenty abuse and malfeasance to go around but I guess I fail to understand exactly when the hell people are talking about when they wax poetically about this magical time of sunshine and lollipops when there was more loyalty and respect for workers.   We talking about defined pensions?  Or something different?  

I think a lot of things have actually improved.  We got a ways to go and there are always still the truly horrible things that you hear and see popping up, BUT as with most stuff there isn't any fun in not bitching and moaning and acknowledging the progress that has been made.  

My uncle worked his way up from the bottom at gm on an assembly line to where he could afford to buy a couple duplexes and drive a mercedes.

[Thatguy 8816]

5 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

That is exactly what I learned when I left my last job.  They talk culture.  They aren't about it.  We had a dude who was there for 28 years.  He talked loyalty and how we were this and that.  He made an off cuff remark and got canned.  

 

Another thing I learned is what I should have learned when I was in the navy.  When they just start feeding you out of the blue.  Be prepared to get screwed

Those that were still unsure Covid took care of that when those companies furloughed everyone.

[Surly Bevo 25123]

3 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

My uncle worked his way up from the bottom at gm on an assembly line to where he could afford to buy a couple duplexes and drive a mercedes.

Cool anecdote, good for him.  I'm sure nobody does that ever at all today.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

 Then you need to get out more often because nowadays it is seen as stagnation to be at the same gig for more than 5 years in a lot of professions, and kids have to leverage their current gig against the next to get more money. Companies try to hire you low and give you minimal bumps year over year no matter the talent level. Then when they hit their perceived ceiling for your position they will try to force you out in favor of a lower salary then rinse and repeat. That's how we got where we are.

I described my recognition of that phenomenon at the end of the previous page.  The post you quoted  wasn't really about that aspect.

Here's the other one:

There's been a lot of discussion about colleges and whatnot on this board.  How do the little Surlians appear to be poised for the job world these days?

I 'll tell you straight up I can get good results from a newhire out of college. I get excited about what the future holds for them as they begin their careers.  I know in the current environment, it tends to be 2-3 years and then turn and burn.  I don't hold that against them.  I don't see it as laziness.  It's cultural and expectations of the day.  That doesn't mean I don't try like hell to keep the good ones.  Those relationships/ challenges are part of what I enjoy about the job.

Noobs aren't inherently lazy.  Some of their expectations might be "whack' vs when we started; but I still feel most folks, regardless of age want to do well at work.

[DaysOff 7967]

I know most of y'all aren't in unions and it took me 20 years to fully come around because I was of a certain political persuasion, but this is spot on along with the company culture shit. This crap is taught in the Ivey MBA programs. Confessions of a Union Buster is a book that should be read by everyone even if not in a union and your last name isn't on the company letterhead.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

 

 

Another thing I learned is what I should have learned when I was in the navy.  When they just start feeding you out of the blue.  Be prepared to get screwed

Pure truth.

[Thatguy 8816]

Just now, Surly Bevo said:

Cool anecdote, good for him.  I'm sure nobody does that ever at all today.

  That was pretty standard for the day or did you not have conversations with your people? I was born in Akron Ohio so the tire and auto plants were where everyone worked. That generation worked in the same place all their lives. The good ones moved up and ended up doing really well for themselves. Its pretty common knowledge. Where do you think the phrase working your way up from the mailroom came from?

[Thatguy 8816]

2 minutes ago, RatJuul said:

I bet dollars to donuts those cribbing about corporations and organizations are the same people who huddle together in the smoke shack 5x a day and complain about everything and are negative and nothing is ever good enough. You people have external locus of control syndrome and even if you are good at your job, you are a corporate vampire.

The way I look at work is three-fold.

1) the old adage my dad told me growing up, it's called work because it's work. It sucks and is not fun. What you do for fun is funded by your work. If you don't like it, start your own business and make your own rules.

2) You have a finite amount of time to work. Start with your financial and life goals, look at your systems (yes, I'm finally getting around to reading Atomic Habits, fight me), and make a plan work your plan. More specifically, your prime earning years, which are those years some of you are saying you are at where you max out your pay for the least amount of effort and work, is an even smaller subset of your overall finite working years. Like my boy Marshall once said, 

"This is your moment, and every single minute you spend
Tryna hold onto it 'cause you may never get it again
So while you're in it try to get as much as you can
And when your run is over just admit when it's at its end"

3) Even if my job sucks and I'm actively looking for something else, I try to live by the mindset that being able to work is a gift to be grateful for. Even while it sucks, as long as I'm there is something I can find redeeming to give glory to God and be an example. I'm working for God, not for my my boss. The attitude of gratitude goes a long way. 

  I WAS the manager not giving a shit about the employees because that was the company standard. GTFO of here with that whoa is me shit. Most of the people on here do pretty well for themselves. This isn't Texags. I semi-retired last year and I graduated college in the 90's. This guy....

[Surly Bevo 25123]

6 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  That was pretty standard for the day or did you not have conversations with your people? I was born in Akron Ohio so the tire and auto plants were where everyone worked. That generation worked in the same place all their lives. The good ones moved up and ended up doing really well for themselves. Its pretty common knowledge. Where do you think the phrase working your way up from the mailroom came from?

Sure, have you ever stopped to consider that people did that more in those days because they had a lot less options.  I mean you just said it. "the tire and auto plants was where everyone worked." I'm not saying that's a bad thing and by the way good people still move up and yes some even still do it all in the same place.  Do some get screwed? Absolutely but let's not sit here and pretend that top of the Akron Tire Factory were all the BEST people either.  

Edited May 12, 2022 by Surly Bevo

[Guest]

There's some misery in this thread, and employers own a decent share of it.

That being said, I agree with Farting Monk's posts.  His previous gig sucked.  He made a change.  Now he's happy.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

20 minutes ago, RatJuul said:

I bet dollars to donuts those cribbing about corporations and organizations are the same people who huddle together in the smoke shack 5x a day and complain about everything and are negative and nothing is ever good enough. You people have external locus of control syndrome and even if you are good at your job, you are a corporate vampire.

The way I look at work is three-fold.

1) the old adage my dad told me growing up, it's called work because it's work. It sucks and is not fun. What you do for fun is funded by your work. If you don't like it, start your own business and make your own rules.

2) You have a finite amount of time to work. Start with your financial and life goals, look at your systems (yes, I'm finally getting around to reading Atomic Habits, fight me), and make a plan work your plan. More specifically, your prime earning years, which are those years some of you are saying you are at where you max out your pay for the least amount of effort and work, is an even smaller subset of your overall finite working years. Like my boy Marshall once said, 

"This is your moment, and every single minute you spend
Tryna hold onto it 'cause you may never get it again
So while you're in it try to get as much as you can
And when your run is over just admit when it's at its end"

3) Even if my job sucks and I'm actively looking for something else, I try to live by the mindset that being able to work is a gift to be grateful for. Even while it sucks, as long as I'm there is something I can find redeeming to give glory to God and be an example. I'm working for God, not for my my boss. The attitude of gratitude goes a long way. 

What does working for God entail?

[FartingMonk 3608]

7 minutes ago, slorch said:

There's some misery in this thread, and employers own a decent share of it.

That being said, I agree with Farting Monk's posts.  His previous gig sucked.  He made a change.  Now he's happy.

The problem is making the change is fucking tough.  It was like having beaten wife syndrome.  You stay because you keep thinking shit will change.  Then you're just like nah.  Fuck this.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

2 minutes ago, RatJuul said:

Doing your job and being as Christ-like as you can in your interactions with customers, employees, co-workers, bosses, etc. even if and when they suck. Put others before yourself, work hard, and be salt and light in the workplace.

Now you got me thinking about whether or not Jesus would have made a good employee. 

[Surly Bevo 25123]

Just now, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Now you got me thinking about whether or not Jesus would have made a good employee. 

Company HHs would be banging with him turning all that water into wine.

Wait, probably sets up an HR violation and a Compliance and Ethics investigation....never mind.

[Brisketexan 105213]

Now you got me thinking about whether or not Jesus would have made a good employee. 

He totally fucked up Simon Peter’s and Andrew’s fishing operation.

[FartingMonk 3608]

1 minute ago, Surly Bevo said:

Company HHs would be banging with him turning all that water into wine.

Wait, probably sets up an HR violation and a Compliance and Ethics investigation....never mind.

Jesus gets fired for his coworkers taking bereavement leave for his funeral only for him to show back up to work 3 days later.

[Thatguy 8816]

2 minutes ago, RatJuul said:

He would have gave unto Caesar what is Caesar's, I think, which is all we should do. Give to our company what we have signed up for and said we would.

 

1 minute ago, RatJuul said:

If by using that vulgar phrase you mean gave two wholly unqualified people the greatest promotion of all time, I agree.

 

Texags----------------->

[Thatguy 8816]

34 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

Sure, have you ever stopped to consider that people did that more in those days because they had a lot less options.  I mean you just said it. "the tire and auto plants was where everyone worked." I'm not saying that's a bad thing and by the way good people still move up and yes some even still do it all in the same place.  Do some get screwed? Absolutely but let's not sit here and pretend that top of the Akron Tire Factory were all the BEST people either.  

   We used to make shit in house. Now all our shit is made offshore and shipped back. How do you think we got here?

 

[FartingMonk 3608]

1 minute ago, Thatguy said:

   We used to make shit in house. Now all our shit is made offshore and shipped back. How do you think we got here?

 

Hubris.  We love to pretend we are green and care about the environment.  That is the selling point of many companies.  We make all the bad shit overseas.  Ship it back here put some nuts and bolts on it.  Say assembled in America and say Fuck India for polluting.  

[Thatguy 8816]

6 minutes ago, RatJuul said:

Woe now! If I didn't know any better I'd think you are trying to get me to check out that website?

   Billy is that you?

[Js1 85494]

15 minutes ago, RatJuul said:

He would have gave unto Caesar what is Caesar's, I think, which is all we should do. Give to our company what we have signed up for and said we would.

Oh just the workers have to do that, eh? 

Shitty sock. Which boot licker corporate bottom bitch are you? 

[Vegas64 677]

7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

The fucking Gen-X motto.  Lectured endlessly by Boomers about how THEY had it, and how easy it was (e.g., $400 a semester college tuition), and why can't we do things just like they did, even though they built completely different systems for us to enter and deal with.

The current generation is a little bit of both -- rolling with the punches of a system not of their own making, AND not aware how good they have it in other respects.  A system that treats its workers exclusively as opex and not capex makes for a mercenary climate all around, and Gen Z would be stupid not to play by the rules of that climate.  BUT, a strong job market makes it a lot easier for them to be mercenaries.  When that option dries up for a time (and it always does, at some point or another), they're going to realize they've been playing with some pretty good cards for a while.  Both things are true.

Good thoughts here.

I think that as Warren Buffett once said, when the tide comes back out we are going to be see who has been swimming naked. Most workers (heck even me) have gotten too comfortable with my earning power because of the 10 year heater we've been on. I forget how long a good salary and good insurance goes in a recession. And in a recession it's a sellers market.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

I feel like somewhere along the line somebody missed the opportunity to post this photo:

[Thatguy 8816]

Just now, RatJuul said:

All workers who are so inclined to act in that way. I was giving my own personal outlook and point of view, if it doesn't help you or disagree then no problem, no harm no foul.

  This is the 180 of a person that just realized they only have 3 rep points left.

[Captainant 27723]

3 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  This is the 180 of a person that just realized they only have 3 rep points left.

Lol that's Chrispy's fourth or fifth sock. He doesn't give a shit about rep

[fattyflattie 4638]

8 hours ago, Nivek said:

If you seriously worked like this you know how it hollows you out after weeks on end.  A one off event sucks, but 20 hour shifts for 14 days is brutal and difficult to understand.  It shouldn't be this way for you.  

Current job I'm at, my first project was cleaning up an environmental issue that was nearly catastrophic.  Had been consulting at the time, so came over as a consultant and worked something like 94 days at avg 19 hrs/day.  Every single fucking day. 1250 miles from home.   It was a beating, but necessary due to the sensitivity and potential exposure.  Worst was the job before I had started to consult.   We had legitimate daytime and nighttime only activities.  I would run projects that required both.  Would be onsite about 70 miles from house because PM was required per contract to be onsite, then head home and sleep for a few hours, get up about 2200 and work the overnight hauls.  It was a fucking beating, and it aligned very much with the negative aspects of this thread. I can't tell you how many times I had to just pull over and sleep for an hour or two in the truck on the way home, then just turn around and do the night work.   My nationality prevented me from ever moving up to an executive position there, so was easy to blow them off after roughly 5 years of that day/night shitshow.  

I don't mind the long hours.  When I was offshore, right out of school, we were expected to be on deck/in office for ~20 hours a day.  That shit would go on for months.  But since you were on your own little city out there, not like you were missing going to the bar, chasing women, etc.  There was nothing to do but work.  

eta: currently putting feelers out with some bigger corps that respect work/life balance much more.  This has made me much older than I am in pretty short order. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by fattyflattie

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

What does working for God entail?

My first thought was this...

Edited May 12, 2022 by slorch

[F250 28813]

2 hours ago, slorch said:

On many levels I agree with you.

All the same, that has not been my experience. I have had mentors who invested in me.  I have mentored many, many others. The daily challenge of my job is to make a better place to work for my team.  I'm pretty fucking decent at it. When you go to a guy's retirement celebration and they tell your wife what a difference you made in their career, I'm sorry but there's some substance there. She's heard it multiple times. Keep in mind, most retirees have been there longer than I have.  I certainly didn't "fuck them out the door."

  I am part of a group of over 1000 retirees/ veterans/ old timers who cuss and discuss work in our private group all the time.  There are several, several folks who I would drop my shit and go help if they were in a bind. I try to go back to Houston once a year, and I always make time for 4-5 retirees/ buddies from work.  Yeah, we worked together for years, but it's the mutual respect and relationships that keep us in touch.

None of that ongoing culture happens if we're just trying to fuck everyone, every step of the way.   I am not dismissing your experience, but wholly fuck, it sounds unlivable.

I share the same philosophy as CooterBrown. Learned it at an early age and it's never failed me. Employment is simply a contract I'll give X for Y, don't give a shit about anything else. Fuck you, pay me.

With that said, I am a professional so my services are worth the money I demand. One can be a professional while being a mercenary. This doesn't mean one needs to go around screwing people over.

As far as the other stuff, I've had mentors and I have mentored and the CooterBrown philosophy was passed to me and I have passed it on to others. Always keep yourself valuable and marketable, never grow stagnant and always put yourself and family before the company because it will put itself before you. 

I have several close friends that I met throughout my career my mentor and mentees are some of them. It doesn't take years working in the same place together to click with someone.

You previously mentioned that your son just received his M.S. in computer science. As someone that has spent my entire career in the Tech industry I can assure you that your son's career will thrive with this philosophy but stagnate if he attempts to emulate what you just described. 

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, F250 said:

I share the same philosophy as CooterBrown. Learned it at an early age and it's never failed me. Employment is simply a contract I'll give X for Y, don't give a shit about anything else. Fuck you, pay me.

With that said, I am a professional so my services are worth the money I demand. One can be a professional while being a mercenary. This doesn't mean one needs to go around screwing people over.

As far as the other stuff, I've had mentors and I have mentored and the CooterBrown philosophy was passed to me and I have passed it on to others. Always keep yourself valuable and marketable, never grow stagnant and always put yourself and family before the company because it will put itself before you. 

I have several close friends that I met throughout my career my mentor and mentees are some of them. It doesn't take years working in the same place together to click with someone.

You previously mentioned that your son just received his M.S. in computer science. As someone that has spent my entire career in the Tech industry I can assure you that your son's career will thrive with this philosophy but stagnate if he attempts to emulate what you just described. 

 

1. Totally agree that there should not  necessarily be a negative connotation with mercenaries.,

2. i posted upthread about the loyalty to my work and that I am absolutely replaceable. I am not in denial of that whatsoever.  If that paycheck stops satisfying the equity and effort I believe I give in a pay period, then I will make a change.

3. Regarding son, he's completely aware of the climate.  Don't confuse my "Made deep personal friendships at work" with "I expected to find friends at work."  There used to be a question on our survey every year that read, "Do you have a best friend at work?"  I never understood the value of it.  Was my employer obligated to give me one?  I hated that question.  Where son has a leg up, is work ethic and the ability to adjust to different environments.  He also knows what he brings to the table.  We've had this discussion many times, and I think it has helped me a better leader of our young employees.

Edited May 12, 2022 by slorch

[Biff Tannen 45702]

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

Oh just the workers have to do that, eh? 

Shitty sock. Which boot licker corporate bottom bitch are you? 

Feels like swam. 

[Caponata 151]

Boomers could raise a family & own a home on one salary. Also next to nothing in student debt if they went to college. Most entitled, selfish generation in history. Only generation to have it better than their parents & kid. They got handed the country on a golden platter & still fucking complain.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Caponata

[Hermanator 7129]

3 hours ago, Surly Bevo said:

So much good old day syndrome.  Management has no loyalty to employees, corporations just use you up, etc. That is true to an extent, but I also kind of wonder....when was this good old day when workers were treated with so much more loyalty and respect than they are now?

I'm pretty sure it wasn't during the Industrial Revolution or the 100 years following it. Was it when woman and people of color had a much harder time finding employment much less advancing in said employment?   Or maybe it was when sexual harassment was a hush hush free for all that never got exposed to the light of day?  Or was it when if something like Covid hit, oh say like a great flu (there have been several) it was still "uh yea get your ass to work."  Was it when the idea of mental health care, childcare services, legal services, corporate paid life insurance, tuition reimbursement, etc were not even a thought on management's mind?  Was it when the idea of flexible work schedules were only for those hippie technology companies?

Look there is still plenty abuse and malfeasance to go around but I guess I fail to understand exactly when the hell people are talking about when they wax poetically about this magical time of sunshine and lollipops when there was more loyalty and respect for workers.   We talking about defined pensions?  Or something different?  

I think a lot of things have actually improved.  We got a ways to go and there are always still the truly horrible things that you hear and see popping up, BUT as with most stuff there isn't any fun in not bitching and moaning and acknowledging the progress that has been made.  

No one is saying there ever was an ideal time, but in general after WW2 but before the Reagan administration when there was a much more robust labor party and union representation as well as stronger enforced regulation on companies in regards to abusing workers. 

Take for example trucking. It used to be a solid middle class earning career and is absolutely vital to the economic wellbeing of this country. But in the 4 decades since the disastrous Reagan administration's union busting became common place it's become such as shit show that we are on tbe verge of an economic collapse because of it. It's not that there is a shortage of workers willing to drive a truck, it's that there's (rightfully) a shortage of workers willing to get fucked over driving constantly for about 20k a year profit (if even that).

This is one of the most essential industries in this country and lack of proper regulation and union negotiating strength is causing it to collapse. If you don't think there are many, many other industries in this country exactly like this with the same problem you have your head planted far up your ass. 

America badly needs a return of strong organized labor and strong unions as well as proper governmental regulation on how companies can operate. America had that during the late 40s through the mid 80s but allowed a certain political party to destroy it and now we're collapsing because of it while people (many right in this thread) blame workers who don't want to be abused and fucked over. 

Buckle the fuck up. We don't have the political backbone to get this right so the collapse will only continue. 

[tx 3 putt 77287]

Fuck Musk, he’s a horrible human being and huge douche. He should move to china 

[Hermanator 7129]

9 minutes ago, Caponata said:

Boomers could raise a family & own a home on one salary. Also next to nothing in student debt if they went to college. Most entitled, selfish generation in history. Only generation to have it better than their parents & kid. They got handed the country on a golden platter & still fucking complain.

Exactly. And why were they able to do that? Strong unions, regulation, and an investment in subsidized education. Now we have almost no unions, almost zero enforced regulation, and a government that wants to defund all public education. We're returning to the dawn of the industrial revolution in terms of corporations' ability to steal and abuse. 

[We’reTexas 1473]

6 hours ago, Celery Man said:

I wonder how all the class of 08-09 kids who pivoted to law school when they dipped their toes in the job market are doing now. I think it was rough for a bit but I’ve lost touch with most of the ones like that who I knew personally.

Those who graduated law school 2010-2011 had a really roughy start getting off the ground, but everyone after was fine (in Texas, at least). To hit the point of this thread, I’d say a defining aspect of millennial lawyers in biglaw is (a) a deep appreciation of actually having a job after having experienced the recession and (b) a total lack of faith in equity partnership. 

[Thatguy 8816]

5 hours ago, Surly Bevo said:

So much good old day syndrome.  Management has no loyalty to employees, corporations just use you up, etc. That is true to an extent, but I also kind of wonder....when was this good old day when workers were treated with so much more loyalty and respect than they are now?

I'm pretty sure it wasn't during the Industrial Revolution or the 100 years following it. Was it when woman and people of color had a much harder time finding employment much less advancing in said employment?   Or maybe it was when sexual harassment was a hush hush free for all that never got exposed to the light of day?  Or was it when if something like Covid hit, oh say like a great flu (there have been several) it was still "uh yea get your ass to work."  Was it when the idea of mental health care, childcare services, legal services, corporate paid life insurance, tuition reimbursement, etc were not even a thought on management's mind?  Was it when the idea of flexible work schedules were only for those hippie technology companies?

Look there is still plenty abuse and malfeasance to go around but I guess I fail to understand exactly when the hell people are talking about when they wax poetically about this magical time of sunshine and lollipops when there was more loyalty and respect for workers.   We talking about defined pensions?  Or something different?  

I think a lot of things have actually improved.  We got a ways to go and there are always still the truly horrible things that you hear and see popping up, BUT as with most stuff there isn't any fun in not bitching and moaning and acknowledging the progress that has been made.  

 

2 hours ago, Hermanator said:

No one is saying there ever was an ideal time, but in general after WW2 but before the Reagan administration when there was a much more robust labor party and union representation as well as stronger enforced regulation on companies in regards to abusing workers. 

Take for example trucking. It used to be a solid middle class earning career and is absolutely vital to the economic wellbeing of this country. But in the 4 decades since the disastrous Reagan administration's union busting became common place it's become such as shit show that we are on tbe verge of an economic collapse because of it. It's not that there is a shortage of workers willing to drive a truck, it's that there's (rightfully) a shortage of workers willing to get fucked over driving constantly for about 20k a year profit (if even that).

This is one of the most essential industries in this country and lack of proper regulation and union negotiating strength is causing it to collapse. If you don't think there are many, many other industries in this country exactly like this with the same problem you have your head planted far up your ass. 

America badly needs a return of strong organized labor and strong unions as well as proper governmental regulation on how companies can operate. America had that during the late 40s through the mid 80s but allowed a certain political party to destroy it and now we're collapsing because of it while people (many right in this thread) blame workers who don't want to be abused and fucked over. 

Buckle the fuck up. We don't have the political backbone to get this right so the collapse will only continue. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Caponata said:

Boomers could raise a family & own a home on one salary. Also next to nothing in student debt if they went to college. Most entitled, selfish generation in history. Only generation to have it better than their parents & kid. They got handed the country on a golden platter & still fucking complain.

 

2 hours ago, Hermanator said:

Exactly. And why were they able to do that? Strong unions, regulation, and an investment in subsidized education. Now we have almost no unions, almost zero enforced regulation, and a government that wants to defund all public education. We're returning to the dawn of the industrial revolution in terms of corporations' ability to steal and abuse. 

    @Surly Bevo is a pretty intelligent poster, but I am not sure how all of this got past him(If I am guessing his age correctly). So many industries have gone backwards. So many industries have used an economic hiccup as an opportunity to attack its labor force. The airlines did it with Sept 11th, cutting pilot salaries in half and stripping them of their 401K's. The auto industry did it with the bailout. Talk to your Uber driver. They will tell you how they started with the company letting them keep 80% but now its close to 50% in just over 10 years. Meanwhile Travis Kalanick and Garrett Camp are worth 2.6 and 2.4 billion a piece. The country has sprouted billionaires from 1990-current at 9 times the rate it had prior. How, because every company these guys grew from is using the same deplorable practices on its workers. Take JB and Amazon for example. They cleared 33 billion last year. Had they just put half that money back into their labor imagine how much happier and well paid their workforce would be? They could be the strongest employer in the United States and have workers climbing over each other to get there, but instead they choose greed and thus have a 150% yearly turnover rate for hourly workers.

  

[DigglerontheHoof 21211]

11 hours ago, workswithseed said:

Hell yeah OT is awesome. I'd walk away from my current job if they took it away. 

You get overtime, yet still beg for money on the interwebs....solid. 

[DigglerontheHoof 21211]

8 hours ago, RatJuul said:

Whoa is me, indeed.

Okay, Mr. Glory-to-God.  /rolleyes/

[deadshank 24653]

I own one 30 year old business and I’m partner in a 12 year old business.  Lots of employees have come and gone and a prized handful have been on for the entire ride. 
 

Some employees have the drive, the sense of proprietorship and go to the end of the world to get things done.  It matters to them.  It reflects in their personal lives which are in order and on a tight ship.  They are successful and happy. 
 

There are others that I can never get through to and will never have “it.”  They are constantly late, their lives littered with petty drama and filled with a long list of woes and grievances.  They are not successful and they are unhappy. 
 

Bottom line:  Some folks are good workers and some aren’t.  It comes from within.  

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

I'm not saying that stronger unions, especially in some industries, is a bad idea, but there were some other things that happened during that time period that probably had something to do with it as well. Like maybe shipping all our manufacturing jobs overseas. Unions can be positive, and they can be negative, but I've never met someone who felt like they were a positive influence on the quality of work done in my industry. And as far as regulations go, that's probably a mixed bag as well. It used to be if you needed a pump changed out, the operator shut it down and called the mechanic who came and did the work. Now, the operator has to write a permit, lock out all the potential sources of energy, call an electrician to make the electrical disconnect and sign off on the permit, get supervisory approval from both his supervisor and the mechanic's supervisor, and place a tag where the mechanic will break into the process. The mechanic now needs a helper to stand outside the barricade while he makes the first break wearing special PPE before they can return the first break tag to operations and continue on with the job. All for a job that would have just involved flipping a switch and turning a few valves before telling the mechanic to get after it during the time where we had so called better worker protections. And that's not even getting into what is required if you need to enter a confined space and use a battery powered drill.

[Celery Man 20991]

6 hours ago, Hermanator said:

No one is saying there ever was an ideal time, but in general after WW2 but before the Reagan administration when there was a much more robust labor party and union representation as well as stronger enforced regulation on companies in regards to abusing workers. 

Take for example trucking. It used to be a solid middle class earning career and is absolutely vital to the economic wellbeing of this country. But in the 4 decades since the disastrous Reagan administration's union busting became common place it's become such as shit show that we are on tbe verge of an economic collapse because of it. It's not that there is a shortage of workers willing to drive a truck, it's that there's (rightfully) a shortage of workers willing to get fucked over driving constantly for about 20k a year profit (if even that).

This is one of the most essential industries in this country and lack of proper regulation and union negotiating strength is causing it to collapse. If you don't think there are many, many other industries in this country exactly like this with the same problem you have your head planted far up your ass. 

America badly needs a return of strong organized labor and strong unions as well as proper governmental regulation on how companies can operate. America had that during the late 40s through the mid 80s but allowed a certain political party to destroy it and now we're collapsing because of it while people (many right in this thread) blame workers who don't want to be abused and fucked over. 

Buckle the fuck up. We don't have the political backbone to get this right so the collapse will only continue. 

If the truckers want to feed a family they should become lawyers. Then we would have a strong America.

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Celery Man

[workswithseed 2109]

1 hour ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

You get overtime, yet still beg for money on the interwebs....solid. 

No, it's more of a gas. Especially after paying $72 for 12 gallons of diesel. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by workswithseed

[workswithseed 2109]

1 hour ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

You get overtime, yet still beg for money on the interwebs....solid. 

Dp

Edited May 12, 2022 by workswithseed

[Guest]

Lotsa union love in here from folks who generally don't work those types of jobs.

Our workforce is just over 12% union and virtually all of the unionization is in areas with higher taxes and what i call a more dependent mindset.

Our approach to unions: you're gonna get paid the same as the non-union areas.  Then the union dues come off your check.  Unions provide NOTHING to the employee that the employee didn't already have, at least in our industry., and then you are conceding your right to represent your interests as an individual.

If you have Krogers and HEBs in your city, ask around and see who gets paid better/ treated more fairly.  Then ask which workforce is unionized.  That's not to say unions never served a purpose because they did.  Now they tend to just be a grift of the employees, but curse those employers dammit!  

Edited May 12, 2022 by slorch

[Sawbonz 27583]

4 minutes ago, slorch said:

Our approach to unions: you're gonna get paid the same as the non-union areas.

And everyone is making more than they would have made if there were never such a thing as unions

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

And everyone is making more than they would have made if there were never such a thing as unions

But a person can't make a living any more.

Y'all need to make up your minds...  so many talking points in the script.

Edited May 12, 2022 by slorch

[52-80 19224]

9 hours ago, Thatguy said:

   We used to make shit in house. Now all our shit is made offshore and shipped back. How do you think we got here?

 

Sea freight illuminati

[Captainant 27723]

It's amazing to see so many middle class genx/boomers demonstrating the crab mentality in this thread. "If I had to eat shit for 9 years working 96hrs a week, then all those damn lazy millennials should have to too!"

Nevermind that at $15/hr, your local EMS techs  can't afford to live in town. The folks making and serving you your food and cocktails can't afford to live in town. If you have kids and are making poverty wages, you're likely to actually be losing money after paying for childcare that doesn't endanger your child. 

In that context, it completely makes sense why people aren't working. It doesn't make economic sense to go to work and waste your life eating shit if all you have to look forward to is unending abuse from your manager/employer. If you know anyone who's worked an entry level hourly wage job at a dollar general or pretty much and low-end retail, ask them how much forward notice they get for their work schedule and how disruptive it is to their personal life.

9 minutes ago, slorch said:

But a person can't make a living any more.

Y'all need to make up your minds...  so many talking points in the script.

Nobody is saying it's a cure-all panacea that guarantees a good outcome for employees. Unions are a mechanism for employees to be on equal footing when negotiating with employers. Yes, there's absolutely bad unions and in some cases it'll lead to over complex and inefficient process like have been described - but you're leaving out much of the common societal good that unions made norms.

I know your whole schitck is to SLORCH the thread by being un/intentionally obtuse, but without the prior action of unions we wouldn't have things like required overtime pay after 40hrs, minimum wage, 40 hour work weeks, personal and family sick leave, etc. We're currently at the point in our  late stage capitalism where low-skill labor is treated as fungible and not worth investing in, even if the individuals have degrees and experience

Edited May 12, 2022 by Captainant

[Neonmoon 38130]

This is a great documentary. Doesn’t push either side. Just lays it out 

 

My take: Comparing American factory workers and Chinese factory workers is fools gold. Are some Americans entitled, fat, and lazy? Sure. Do the Chinese rely on forced slave labor? Sure. Just because we shouldn’t champion American’s style, doesn’t mean we should champion the Chinese system. 

A better model might be German. They work hard, smart, efficient, and champion workers rights.