Musk: American workers are lazy. Chinese workers are awesome.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

30 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

And everyone is making more than they would have made if there were never such a thing as unions

This is why I think unions in general are a good thing that we need in society. But the power of unions and employers needs to be balanced instead of tilted to one extreme or the other. Workers need to be able to band together to demand better treatment, but they also need to be accountable for their actions.

[Sawbonz 27582]

37 minutes ago, slorch said:

But a person can't make a living any more.

Y'all need to make up your minds...  so many talking points in the script.

Who is y’all? 

[fattyflattie 4638]

We’re a Union shop and it handcuffs the ever living fuck out of competing against merit shops.  There was a time and place, for sure. But our guys get to work about 20% of the hours they could get if we weren’t. Once the work is awarded its good for them, I guess?  But they sit at home waiting a lot. 

[MonkeyDoughnut 10346]

I can admire a generation willing to come to their first interview and letting me know work-life balance is very important to them so don't expect a minute more than required for this salaried position with bonus etc.

I can also admire a generation willing to come to their first interview and letting me know the salary range being offered is below their expecations, noting they have no prior experience.

[workswithseed 2109]

6 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

I can admire a generation willing to come to their first interview and letting me know work-life balance is very important to them so don't expect a minute more than required for this salaried position with bonus etc.

I can also admire a generation willing to come to their first interview and letting me know the salary range being offered is below their expecations, noting they have no prior experience.

Telling the truth is a good thing.

What about the question of " Why do you want to work here?"

 

[F250 28809]

8 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

I can admire a generation willing to come to their first interview and letting me know work-life balance is very important to them so don't expect a minute more than required for this salaried position with bonus etc.

I can also admire a generation willing to come to their first interview and letting me know the salary range being offered is below their expecations, noting they have no prior experience.

Just did several interviews yesterday and have been doing them for years. I've never once heard someone mention work/life balance nor discuss salary because HR does the salary talk.

 

[Vegas64 677]

1 hour ago, Celery Man said:

If the truckers want to feed a family they should become lawyers. Then we would have a strong America.

 

I thought I read last week that Walmart was paying up to 110k for truckers. Maybe you meant Jack in the box workers.

Quote

 

The big-box retailer will raise the wages of its in-house truck drivers, which form the very foundation of its supply chain. Walmart drivers can now make a starting salary of $95,000 up to a maximum of $110,000 in their first year with the company.

"And that’s just a start – drivers who have been with Walmart longer can earn even more, based on factors like tenure and location," the company said in a blog post written by Walmart Senior Vice President of Transportation Fernando Cortes and Walmart Senior Vice President of U.S. Supply Chain HR Karisa Sprague.

Walmart employs roughly 12,000 truck drivers at present. Previously, Walmart drivers made an average starting salary of $87,000 the Wall Street Journal reported.

 

 

[Hermanator 7129]

1 hour ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

This is why I think unions in general are a good thing that we need in society. But the power of unions and employers needs to be balanced instead of tilted to one extreme or the other. Workers need to be able to band together to demand better treatment, but they also need to be accountable for their actions.

Exactly. Just like everything else in society there needs to be middle ground to operate efficiently. If the US was completely run by corrupt Unions and over regulation then we'd be having a similar but opposite conversation right now about how things would be more efficient and we could get more done if corporations just had a little more leeway and freedom over their workforce. 

But we don't. We have corporations that have run amok, a government that is actively allowing it to happen, and a country that is suffering more and more because of it. The seesaw is unbalanced and tilted way in the corporations favor and needs to be balanced by adding more worker protections and restraining how corporations can treat their workers and consumers alike. That's the reality in which we currently live. 

[BabaYaga 15304]

11 hours ago, RatJuul said:

Doing your job and being as Christ-like as you can in your interactions with customers, employees, co-workers, bosses, etc. even if and when they suck. Put others before yourself, work hard, and be salt and light in the workplace.

He's talking about (I think) the age old adage of the servant leader.  Integrity.  Humility.  Flexibility.  Resilience.  Stewardship.  Loyalty

Many of which are sorely lacking in today's corporate structure.  

[Hermanator 7129]

1 minute ago, Vegas64 said:

I thought I read last week that Walmart was paying up to 110k for truckers. Maybe you meant Jack in the box workers.

 

Watch the video above. They will advertise high salaries but after you factor expenses they're profiting below the poverty level. The pay per mile system also screws them over on hours long docking waits and encourages unsafe driving practices. 

I'm assuming Walmart's drivers are contractors and not employees as that's how almost the entire industry is now done. If so they don't receive any benefits and have to maintain the trucks themselves. 

[BabaYaga 15304]

44 minutes ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

I can admire a generation willing to come to their first interview and letting me know work-life balance is very important to them so don't expect a minute more than required for this salaried position with bonus etc.

I can also admire a generation willing to come to their first interview and letting me know the salary range being offered is below their expecations, noting they have no prior experience.

[BabaYaga 15304]

2 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

Watch the video above. They will advertise high salaries but after you factor expenses they're profiting below the poverty level. The pay per mile system also screws them over on hours long docking waits and encourages unsafe driving practices. 

I'm assuming Walmart's drivers are contractors and not employees as that's how almost the entire industry is now done. If so they don't receive any benefits and have to maintain the trucks themselves. 

After they BUY the truck themselves (often).....themz not cheap

[Vegas64 677]

1 minute ago, Hermanator said:

Watch the video above. They will advertise high salaries but after you factor expenses they're profiting below the poverty level. The pay per mile system also screws them over on hours long docking waits and encourages unsafe driving practices. 

I'm assuming Walmart's drivers are contractors and not employees as that's how almost the entire industry is now done. If so they don't receive any benefits and have to maintain the trucks themselves. 

I'll check out that video and I take your word on it but going from $100k to below poverty level after expenses seems...extreme.

But it doesn't matter because while companies like Walmart try to attract and retain truck drivers with higher pay rates in the short term, an existential threat looms for drivers. A University of Michigan study found that self-driving trucks could eliminate about 500,000 jobs in the coming years.

It's a tale as old as the industrial revolution, I guess.

[DigglerontheHoof 21210]

4 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

Watch the video above. They will advertise high salaries but after you factor expenses they're profiting below the poverty level. The pay per mile system also screws them over on hours long docking waits and encourages unsafe driving practices. 

I'm assuming Walmart's drivers are contractors and not employees as that's how almost the entire industry is now done. If so they don't receive any benefits and have to maintain the trucks themselves. 

Not a direct comparison but a buddy of mine has a son who started driving long-haul within the last year or so.  Kid is making great money for someone his age w/ a high school diploma.  However, he has no outside life and his company encourages ignoring rest rules and is constantly pushing him to drive more and park less...regardless of the regulations. 

[BabaYaga 15304]

2 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

A University of Michigan study found that self-driving trucks could eliminate about 500,000 jobs in the coming years.

They'd be integrated to the rest of the self-driving population?  That's a bit scary 

Their own roadway network?  Be nice, but fuck, we can't fix I-35 and have been "working" on it for decades.  

[BabaYaga 15304]

2 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Not a direct comparison but a buddy of mine has a son who started driving long-haul within the last year or so.  Kid is making great money for someone his age w/ a high school diploma.  However, he has no outside life and his company encourages ignoring rest rules and is constantly pushing him to drive more and park less...regardless of the regulations. 

I know the two owners/founders of InstiCo Logistics out of Dallas and Harrison Walker & Harper out of Paris, TX.  Essentially trucking companies.  The stories are, "interesting"....

[BabaYaga 15304]

Just now, RatJuul said:

They have already been piloted in Dallas/Frisco I thought I read.

Quite possibly?  Who knows?  They're just so damn big.  One of those goes haywire, it's trouble.  

Of course if they can fix the issue of two of those big fucks driving parallel for miles on a 2 lane road; backing up traffic and making me contemplate murder.....might be worth it.  

[fattyflattie 4638]

18 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

Watch the video above. They will advertise high salaries but after you factor expenses they're profiting below the poverty level. The pay per mile system also screws them over on hours long docking waits and encourages unsafe driving practices. 

I'm assuming Walmart's drivers are contractors and not employees as that's how almost the entire industry is now done. If so they don't receive any benefits and have to maintain the trucks themselves. 

Iirc, Walmart is known to pay very well for their truckers. I’m out of town working now, but there are signs everywhere here for 25k sign on bonus with company truck, short haul (at home at night) class A guys.  I saw John Oliver’s episode. He interviews they lady that made $28 or whatever but conveniently left out any success stories. There are millions of truckers. They don’t all make $28 checks. 

[F250 28809]

1 minute ago, RatJuul said:

One of the many challenges to human-driven trucks is the 11-hour driver service limit. That’s one reason why truck stops nationwide are often filled to the brim with parked trucks, with drivers sleeping in the cabs or shopping for beef jerky while they wait for their down time to end.

Going to put a dent in the meth and lot lizard business.

 

[CHIEF 5094]

20 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

Exactly. Just like everything else in society there needs to be middle ground to operate efficiently. If the US was completely run by corrupt Unions and over regulation then we'd be having a similar but opposite conversation right now about how things would be more efficient and we could get more done if corporations just had a little more leeway and freedom over their workforce. 

But we don't. We have corporations that have run amok, a government that is actively allowing it to happen, and a country that is suffering more and more because of it. The seesaw is unbalanced and tilted way in the corporations favor and needs to be balanced by adding more worker protections and restraining how corporations can treat their workers and consumers alike. That's the reality in which we currently live. 

The issue, if you crackdown on the corps, is that there will be no repercussions when those positions are outsourced to another country. That's what you get with a "Global" economy. Both political parties are big promoters of "free trade". The corps are the big winners, the employees, the big losers. First, it was manufacturing, now it is service centers. Why do you think Third World Countries are teaching all of their school students to speak English. The overall objective doesn't seem to be to bring Third World countries up to First World countries, but to level everyone off as a Second World country.

American workers have no leverage with the current trade agreements. It's why wages have stagnated for so long. Most Americans aren't working to put food on the table, they are working for new cars, fancy houses, and vacations. It can be summed up in the old saying:

Hard times create hard men, hard men make soft times, soft times make soft men, soft men make hard times.

Americans are soft men at the moment, about to make hard times because of our trade agreements.

CHIEF

[BabaYaga 15304]

7 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Hard times create hard men, hard men make soft times, soft times make soft men, soft men make hard times.

 

Yep!

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

9 hours ago, Hermanator said:

No one is saying there ever was an ideal time, but in general after WW2 but before the Reagan administration when there was a much more robust labor party and union representation as well as stronger enforced regulation on companies in regards to abusing workers. 

Take for example trucking. It used to be a solid middle class earning career and is absolutely vital to the economic wellbeing of this country. But in the 4 decades since the disastrous Reagan administration's union busting became common place it's become such as shit show that we are on tbe verge of an economic collapse because of it. It's not that there is a shortage of workers willing to drive a truck, it's that there's (rightfully) a shortage of workers willing to get fucked over driving constantly for about 20k a year profit (if even that).

This is one of the most essential industries in this country and lack of proper regulation and union negotiating strength is causing it to collapse. If you don't think there are many, many other industries in this country exactly like this with the same problem you have your head planted far up your ass. 

America badly needs a return of strong organized labor and strong unions as well as proper governmental regulation on how companies can operate. America had that during the late 40s through the mid 80s but allowed a certain political party to destroy it and now we're collapsing because of it while people (many right in this thread) blame workers who don't want to be abused and fucked over. 

Buckle the fuck up. We don't have the political backbone to get this right so the collapse will only continue. 

 

THIS is what the trucker protests should have been about-- living wages, fair pay, decent working conditions and benefits. Instead they wasted their time (and fuel and any public sympathy they might have gotten blowing air horns in residential districts and causing traffic jams during rush hour) protesting what exactly?

 

 

[Js1 85493]

Just now, High Plains Drifter said:

 

THIS is what the trucker protests should have been about-- living wages, fair pay, decent working conditions and benefits. Instead they wasted their time (and fuel and any public sympathy they might have gotten blowing air horns in residential districts and causing traffic jams during rush hour) protesting what exactly?

 

 

Mask mandates that had already gone out of effect by the time they started protesting? 

[FartingMonk 3608]

I blame Jack Welch for all this.  As head of GE he embraced the lean six sigma concept.  And since he embraced it it became monkey see monkey do.  The concept is great but on the drive for efficiency it cut out some of the needed fat to be able to absorb interruptions.  I don't know if our people are just too stupid to see it or they are just so hypnotized by some magic number.  I compare it to a heroin addict chasing the dragon.  You hear bosses keep mentioning "benchmark rates" we gotta hit benchmark.  They hit that number one time when every condition was right and sustained it for maybe 10 minutes.  But since it was achieved one time.  They expect that to be the norm.  So that pressure leads to unrealistic expectations because no body along the chain dares to say no to their boss.

[High Plains Drifter 11050]

 

protesting mask mandates when they spend 95% of their time alone in their cabs.

[F250 28809]

14 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

The issue, if you crackdown on the corps, is that there will be no repercussions when those positions are outsourced to another country. That's what you get with a "Global" economy. Both political parties are big promoters of "free trade". The corps are the big winners, the employees, the big losers. First, it was manufacturing, now it is service centers. Why do you think Third World Countries are teaching all of their school students to speak English. The overall objective doesn't seem to be to bring Third World countries up to First World countries, but to level everyone off as a Second World country.

American workers have no leverage with the current trade agreements. It's why wages have stagnated for so long. Most Americans aren't working to put food on the table, they are working for new cars, fancy houses, and vacations. It can be summed up in the old saying:

Hard times create hard men, hard men make soft times, soft times make soft men, soft men make hard times.

Americans are soft men at the moment, about to make hard times because of our trade agreements.

CHIEF

lol old man wisdom spoken at McDonalds over coffee with the other old men.

 

[Hefeweizen 5328]

If someone says they are going to be Christ like at work I assume they think they can just hang around.

 

People don’t change.  There are good and bad employees.  There are great and shitty companies.  It is just a job and you’re paid in exchange for your work.  That’s it.

[Royalfan5 2354]

2 minutes ago, Hefeweizen said:

If someone says they are going to be Christ like at work I assume they think they can just hang around.

 

People don’t change.  There are good and bad employees.  There are great and shitty companies.  It is just a job and you’re paid in exchange for your work.  That’s it.

Probably try and pick your pocket while they are hanging around too. 

[Snake Diggity 4627]

American workers have been reaping a smaller % of the benefits of their work relative to American business owners since the 70's.  This has led to all kinds of negative outcomes but relevant to this thread, it has led to a dramatic decrease in the dignity of work.  Popular culture and management/ownership attitudes have exacerbated that problem.

I still firmly believe demographics heavily favor the American worker in the short, medium, and long term relative to the American business owner.  So my opinion is that the wave of leverage the American worker has been wielding recently isn't going to go away over any extended period of time.  There may be economic downturns that temporarily reduce the leverage but generally, I believe there will be more jobs than workers moving forward.

One thing on the topic of work that I have been thinking about is that there may be underrated benefits of reducing working hours.  More workers working fewer hours means more elasticity in the workforce.  This especially comes into play in times like the pandemic or other emergencies, but has value at all times due to mitigation of turnover risk.  I believe if we decoupled healthcare from employment that a tipping point would be reached to make a significant reduction in the 40 hour workweek a high value proposition for employers.

As to Musk's comments, of course he wants slave labor.  The American worker has lasted in the face of cheaper competition for a long time, and that won't change anytime soon.  My unresearched opinion is that while young American workers want to work less and are less motivated by traditional means (and are probably less resilient than older workers), they are far more intelligent and adaptable than their older counterparts, so they still have superior value to foreign workers.

[Hefeweizen 5328]

1 minute ago, Royalfan5 said:

Probably try and pick your pocket while they are hanging around too. 

Hard to do that with their hands pinned to a cross.

[Celery Man 20991]

of course this is the thread that resurrects donkeycigars

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

I blame Jack Welch for all this.  As head of GE he embraced the lean six sigma concept.  And since he embraced it it became monkey see monkey do.  The concept is great but on the drive for efficiency it cut out some of the needed fat to be able to absorb interruptions.  I don't know if our people are just too stupid to see it or they are just so hypnotized by some magic number.  I compare it to a heroin addict chasing the dragon.  You hear bosses keep mentioning "benchmark rates" we gotta hit benchmark.  They hit that number one time when every condition was right and sustained it for maybe 10 minutes.  But since it was achieved one time.  They expect that to be the norm.  So that pressure leads to unrealistic expectations because no body along the chain dares to say no to their boss.

That was a function of Wall Street. Everyone of the 401(k) owns part of that, but it’s a lot easier just to blame corporate America.  Shareholders demand a return on their investment.  It doesn’t just magically appear.

[MissingInAction 25165]

Even working in IT the past 25 years I still come across management that treats us as If we should feel lucky to have a job. 

That attitude will lose a company talent quicker than covid.

At my last job where we were woefully understaffed they started threatening our jobs because we couldn't keep up with the work.

I was the first gone 3 for another job weeks later. The entire team had left soon after that.

The job environment today is something middle management losers can't seem to comprehend. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by MissingInAction

[Celery Man 20991]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

That was a function of Wall Street. Everyone of the 401(k) owns part of that, but it’s a lot easier just to blame corporate America.  Shareholders demand a return on their investment.  It doesn’t just magically appear.

so, when people are railing against capitalism and stuff like that, it's not necessarily because they are godless pinko commies who have no souls and are against all of our freedoms that make america the land of red white and blue. it's because it is not, in fact, a panacea economic system that in its most pure form corrects all problems and creates a randian utopia. that idea is for morons and underachieving high school freshmen who have thought about a lemonade stand and therefore understand the solution to problems such as the ones we are discussing in this thread.

[FartingMonk 3608]

8 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

so, when people are railing against capitalism and stuff like that, it's not necessarily because they are godless pinko commies who have no souls and are against all of our freedoms that make america the land of red white and blue. it's because it is not, in fact, a panacea economic system that in its most pure form corrects all problems and creates a randian utopia. that idea is for morons and underachieving high school freshmen who have thought about a lemonade stand and therefore understand the solution to problems such as the ones we are discussing in this thread.

 

16 minutes ago, slorch said:

That was a function of Wall Street. Everyone of the 401(k) owns part of that, but it’s a lot easier just to blame corporate America.  Shareholders demand a return on their investment.  It doesn’t just magically appear.

Yeah.  You see that a lot.  It's the business group who trumps everyone.  Boeing got bit in the ass by it.  Everyone is getting bit in the ass by it.  Shareholders don't allow companies to have long term plans.  The concept of protecting the divedend over everything else says it all.  They care only what the shareholder thinks and not what the worker needs 

[Hermanator 7129]

1 hour ago, RatJuul said:

It's coming Bubba. https://dallasinnovates.com/kodiak-partners-with-u-s-express-on-first-ever-autonomous-lane-from-dallas-to-the-east-coast/

"Autonomous trucks are pulling out of Dallas-Fort Worth so often now, it might one day become news when a human driver steers one out. Only yesterday, Aurora Innovation announced it was opening new terminals in Fort Worth and El Paso to haul freight autonomously for Werner Enterprises. Today, Mountain View, California-based Kodiak Robotics is dropping news.

Kodiak is partnering with U.S. Xpress, one of America’s largest carrier fleets, to launch autonomous freight service between Dallas-Fort Worth and Atlanta using Kodiak’s self-driving trucks.

Truck ran 24 hours a day for 131 total straight hours

The partners completed a first-of-its-kind pilot in late March, hauling four round-trip freight runs between Dallas and Atlanta 24 hours a day for 131 total hours—covering 6,350 miles over nearly five-and-a-half full days.

That must put a gleam in the eye of freight companies everywhere. One of the many challenges to human-driven trucks is the 11-hour driver service limit. That’s one reason why truck stops nationwide are often filled to the brim with parked trucks, with drivers sleeping in the cabs or shopping for beef jerky while they wait for their down time to end."

 

Just like with Uber and Tesla's self driving cars bid this is going to hit major roadblocks once they try widespread tests and the technology fails and kills some people. Right now this tech requires humans behind the wheel to correct errors, and if the "self driving features" in my car are any indication this has a long long long way to go before being fully automated to a safety level required. 

I'll be surprised if it's not decades before this happens although I do think trucking will see it before widespread use of passenger vehicles.

[MonkeyDoughnut 10346]

2 hours ago, workswithseed said:

Telling the truth is a good thing.

What about the question of " Why do you want to work here?"

 

No, I appreciate the honestly and had a guy about 10 years ago who I asked what he likes to do in his spare time and he honestly said "I like to look through job postings to see what's most in demand".  Hiring as a computer programmer so could appreciate him wanting to stay current, but then he followed up with "... and in case I see something I might find more interesting or paying more".  Again, I appreciated his honesty and wished him luck wherever he ended up being hired.  It's one thing to think it another to say it.. in an interview.

[Neonmoon 38130]

2 minutes ago, Hermanator said:

Just like with Uber and Tesla's self driving cars bid this is going to hit major roadblocks once they try widespread tests and the technology fails and kills some people. Right now this tech requires humans behind the wheel to correct errors, and if the "self driving features" in my car are any indication this has a long long long way to go before being fully automated to a safety level required. 

I'll be surprised if it's not decades before this happens although I do think trucking will see it before widespread use of passenger vehicles.

It has already failed and killed people. I agree it will be a few more decades. That being said, human drivers kill 90 people every day. It’s a solvable problem 

[Vegas64 677]

13 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

 

Yeah.  You see that a lot.  It's the business group who trumps everyone.  Boeing got bit in the ass by it.  Everyone is getting bit in the ass by it.  Shareholders don't allow companies to have long term plans.  The concept of protecting the divedend over everything else says it all.  They care only what the shareholder thinks and not what the worker needs 

Here is the thing though, these companies that have weak leadership and are shareholder-value zombies, when they don't adapt they get disrupted. That disruption allows for a whole new modality and industries even which creates whole new careers and jobs. It's all very dynamic and driven by the pursuit of EBITDA or whatever.

This is why I disagree with SnakeDiggity, the worker will not always have leverage. It's been a fantastic run the past decade and we've been lulled into a trance that the worker is taking power back from the company, but stocks are falling and the winter is coming. 

I was on a work call just yesterday where everyone was asking "what is the next big thing? what is the next big disruption?" because you always need to be disrupting markets for workers to keep leverage. It's the analogous problem you hear about the content creator celebrities, it's a hamster wheel where you constantly have to keep churning out new and good content to keep subscribers and views to make money. 

[hobbes2702 13052]

23 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Wages increase for a couple of years and a bunch of upper middle class types start talking about how the working poor need to feel more pain. You love to see it.

Truly crazy to see people backing corporate greed over workers not being forced to work until they die. I cannot imagine carrying water for a corporation on the internet after I carry their water for 9 hours a day.

[wildcat09 29365]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

Truly crazy to see people backing corporate greed over workers not being forced to work until they die. I cannot imagine carrying water for a corporation on the internet after I carry their water for 9 hours a day.

If you're not careful, reading "America should be more like China" takes from the "Fuck China and everything about it" crowd will give you whiplash.

The subconscious hunger to taste boot leather exceeds even the normal bigotry. It's fascinating. 

[hobbes2702 13052]

21 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

If you're not careful, reading "America should be more like China" takes from the "Fuck China and everything about it" crowd will give you whiplash.

The subconscious hunger to taste boot leather exceeds even the normal bigotry. It's fascinating. 

“How dare those lazy workers and their demands for compensation and time. They should care more about the company’s profits than their own well being”

[Js1 85493]

4 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

“How dare those lazy workers and their demands for compensation and time. They should care more about the company’s profits than their own well being”

One of these days, the executive class will notice me if I keep defending them and I’ll be the next Senior VP making bank and then I’ll be rich! That’s how it works, right? 

[Captainant 27723]

28 minutes ago, FartingMonk said:

 

Yeah.  You see that a lot.  It's the business group who trumps everyone.  Boeing got bit in the ass by it.  Everyone is getting bit in the ass by it.  Shareholders don't allow companies to have long term plans.  The concept of protecting the divedend over everything else says it all.  They care only what the shareholder thinks and not what the worker needs 

More specifically: business leadership rarely looks past the next quarter. The corporate culture is such that there is no long term ownership of the results of decisions.

Also, lmao at Chrispy trying to take me to Sunday school with bible parables to teach the virtue of being a good worker bee.

How about: be a decent person to your coworkers, peers, customers, and management because we're all just people in the same boat hurtling through the cosmos. No need to bring in sky daddy to guilt you into not being a selfish piece of shit. If you're only being a decent human being because you're angling for some abstract promise of an eternal reward, then brother, you may be a jerk.

[MonkeyDoughnut 10346]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

More specifically: business leadership rarely looks past the next quarter. The corporate culture is such that there is no long term ownership of the results of decisions.

Also, lmao at Chrispy trying to take me to Sunday school with bible parables to teach the virtue of being a good worker bee.

How about: be a decent person to your coworkers, peers, customers, and management because we're all just people in the same boat hurtling through the cosmos. No need to bring in sky daddy to guilt you into not being a selfish piece of shit. If you're only being a decent human being because you're angling for some abstract promise of an eternal reward, then brother, you may be a jerk.

Companies shifting to compensation via stock and stock options was a huge driver. Pushing that compensation down to middle and lower management has only made things worse. Why should we expect business leaders to be any more loyal to a company than typical employee? They are playing the same game. Move up or move out. Next.

[hobbes2702 13052]

5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

More specifically: business leadership rarely looks past the next quarter. The corporate culture is such that there is no long term ownership of the results of decisions.

Also, lmao at Chrispy trying to take me to Sunday school with bible parables to teach the virtue of being a good worker bee.

How about: be a decent person to your coworkers, peers, customers, and management because we're all just people in the same boat hurtling through the cosmos. No need to bring in sky daddy to guilt you into not being a selfish piece of shit. If you're only being a decent human being because you're angling for some abstract promise of an eternal reward, then brother, you may be a jerk.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Celery Man said:

so, when people are railing against capitalism and stuff like that, it's not necessarily because they are godless pinko commies who have no souls and are against all of our freedoms that make america the land of red white and blue. it's because it is not, in fact, a panacea economic system that in its most pure form corrects all problems and creates a randian utopia. that idea is for morons and underachieving high school freshmen who have thought about a lemonade stand and therefore understand the solution to problems such as the ones we are discussing in this thread.

Lolz.  You run your life the way you want to.  We can point fingers an any number of folks and entities that are at least partially to blame. Some folks are pissed that it isn’t utopia, so they deem the whole situation a failure.  Others have found a semblence of success, but their examples are poo-pooed by the chicken littles.

Basically, you have a choice whether to be miserable or get after it. The notion that nobody has a chance any more and everyone’s getting fucked is asinine and lazy. There’s a crap ton of folks in this thread and on this site in general who believe those things to be insolvable, and when examples are given to the contrary of their beliefs, well, that’s just bootstrappin bullshit.

whatever you want to embrace I guess… I’m not exceptional, but then the doom and gloomers insist that I am.  It’s laughable how bad some of y’all think life n America is some big pity party.

Edited May 12, 2022 by slorch

[Celery Man 20991]

1 minute ago, slorch said:

Lolz.  You run your life the way you want to.  We can point fingers an any number of folks and entities that are at least partially to blame. Some folks are pissed that it isn’t utopia, so they deem the whole situation a failure.  Others have found a semblence of success, but their examples are poo-pooed by the chicken littles.

Basically, you have a choice whether to be miserable or get after it. The notion that nobody has a chance any more and everyone’s getting fucked is asinine and lazy.

you're taking what I said and adding a whole bunch of extra shit that I never did. I'm doing fine and was merely pointing out that you are making the exact point that the "capitalism is bad" people do. Sorry to hear that you've contracted socialism.

[TXSG8R 3362]

23 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

People are generally paid what they are worth, or more, in the US.  I'm sorry you think someone building a sandwich should make $20/hr, but left to the markets, I bet I could find a good godamned sandwich maker for about $9. They have the ability at any time to go to law school and get paid $400/hr to post on Surly if the $9 doesn't suit their desired lifestyle. I'd of loved to live the IG lifestyle in my early 20's too, but traveling to shithole countries to remove them of their hydrocarbons paid better. 

 

23 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

This has always been the case.  There are only so many corner offices, and companies still take the best and groom them for advancement.  Fuck some companies has separate little divisions for them when they hire you right out of school.   Nearly every company has people they absolutely want to keep and move up the ranks.  They also have a bunch of less talented folks that should be happy they have figured out how to turn that wrench and be paid for it.  We have ALOT of people who are certain they bring a lot more to the table than they actually do.  

 

I worked in the MIC for 20 years before shifting full time to my side hustle as a trade.  Covid accelerated my timeline, but I’m amazed at how shitty construction trades pay their work. Almost every trade I see has their entire work force as 1099 contractors and then endlessly bitch about guys not showing up to work. You pay them like shit, cheat them out of benefits just so you can squeeze a little more money out of that pay, and then have the shocked face when guys either don’t give 2 shits about that shitty job, or more likely work multiple 1099 jobs and figure out their day based on whichever guy is paying the most that day/week. I’ve heard an electrician on the job tell his buddy that he was going to be out the next week because a guy hired him to cut firewood and it was paying more. Shit is broken.
 

This is supposed to be skilled labor, many requiring licensing, but you can get better pay and benefits working as a fucking cashier at hobby lobby. We are at the point that we need to hire people, but we recognize that it’s extremely hard to get the appropriate labor out of builders to pay someone a livable wage as an employee, not a 1099.  I know a plumber that was offering to pay $30/hour, no experience, and couldn’t find anyone to take it. Covid woke people up to the value of benefits, and so far I haven’t seen trades really shifting to meet the need. They just hire less qualified/shittier employees trying to maintain that same profit margin. 
 

Your posts back to back made me laugh. It’s very easy to tell people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps while refusing to recognize that there’s a finite limit on “good” jobs. You choose instead to display a textbook example of cognitive dissonance.  You might think low wages are a stick that will force people to climb the ladder, but the reality is there’s only so much room at each rung, and that we need to pay living wages even to the people at the bottom. 

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