Musk: American workers are lazy. Chinese workers are awesome.

[52-80 19222]

if you're rich, you cheated

if you're poor, you were cheated.

nuh uh. nothing in between.  

[BabaYaga 15304]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Lemme ask people this.

Does anyone really think that an "underclass" American is any lazier or more unskilled than the same type from 50 or 75 years ago?

I think there are a number of factors.  The types of jobs now are very, very different.  There are significantly more disincentives now as compared to them in the way of federal safety net programs that create disincentives to work.  There are also armies of young, intelligent people that are using creative ways to make ridiculous amounts of money via the internet and social media that were never even conceived ten years ago.  

[BabaYaga 15304]

2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

if you're rich, you cheated

if you're poor, you were cheated.

nuh uh. nothing in between.  

Is whoring and sleeping your way to the top of the food chain cheating?  Asking for a friend....

[Js1 85492]

9 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

it's fucking crazy there is so much outright disdain for people just trying to go to work everyday to provide for their families.

i have to think in slorch's case there is some deep seated disdain for poor people because he associates that condition with his upbringing which was not pleasant.

They should just bootstrap harder. Maybe a million dollar loan from their dad.  They should try having no college debt too. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

If this is really what you think then you are just peddling partisan talking points and ignoring everything else.  Like the fact that for most companies labor (salaries, etc.) is often as high as 60% of their overall expenses.  Many plans floated would essentially take that up to close to 100% of their expenses.  Now do the math for me without factoring in significant layoffs?

what am i supposed to think when there's a group of people here constantly calling working class americans lazy and stupid? that they actually like them? who's really peddling partisan talking points there?

what's happened in the last 50-60 years that has made it impossible to live comfortably waking up everyday and doing work that is necessary for our society to function?

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

4 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

if you're rich, you cheated

if you're poor, you were cheated.

nuh uh. nothing in between.  

@BabaYaga calls out someone for peddling partisan talking points while liking this post. come on, man, at least try.

[Js1 85492]

6 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

if you're rich, you had help but think you hit a triple

if you're poor, the system and cycle keeps you poor because that's what it is designed to do

fify

try harder next time

[Murfdogg21 4421]

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

Tell me more about the iPhones from 50-75 years ago 

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

Welfare Queens!!!!!1!11!

Thanks for those thoughtful responses. I was referring to wanting luxury and feeling entitled when either young and/or not high paid or into the prime earning years of a career. Commentary more towards the theme of the thread of a growing number of entitled and lazy American workers. 

[52-80 19222]

2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

fify

try harder next time

who?  put a name to each sentiment next time.

[BabaYaga 15304]

Just now, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

what am i supposed to think when there's a group of people here constantly calling working class americans lazy and stupid? that they actually like them? who's really peddling partisan talking points there?

what's happened in the last 50-60 years that has made it impossible to live comfortably waking up everyday and doing work that is necessary for our society to function?

There have been older, employed people looking down and the young, less employed class since classes existed.  That's nothing new.  Nor is it "bootstrappy" to point out the millions and millions of job openings that continue to stay vacant.

There is again my point about labor costs as a percent of an organizations overall expenses - especially smaller companies that make up the backbone of the economy.  

Surprised nobody is talking about the anti-labor/union stances of recent cases with Starbucks and Amazon who have gone medieval on recent unionization attempts at stores and warehouses.  Been all over the news.  Amazon just got a TEN billion dollar contract from the NSA (this is fine...).  The same Amazon that has been trying to crush all attempts at unions at their warehouses, and per the government, should not be allowed to enter into ANY govt contracts because of anti-union practices.   

[BabaYaga 15304]

6 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

@BabaYaga calls out someone for peddling partisan talking points while liking this post. come on, man, at least try.

Get a sense of humor already

[Js1 85492]

5 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

Thanks for those thoughtful responses. I was referring to wanting luxury and feeling entitled when either young and/or not high paid or into the prime earning years of a career. Commentary more towards the theme of the thread of a growing number of entitled and lazy American workers. 

Just as thoughtful as you calling them entitled and lazy.

Your agenda is showing.  Stop complaining. 

[52-80 19222]

im sure peoples work corporate experience is broad enough to have seen a little slice of the macrocosm.

in that environment, some successful peoplework/ed hard as fuck.  some got ultra lucky.  also some people working below their potential and desire.  and plenty of people who dont do shit but want more than they put in. 

its a pretty wide world out there, but on the surly its only have and have-nots.  aggrieved and oppressors. 

[Captainant 27722]

3 minutes ago, RatJuul said:

The theoretical problem with just sliding the bar over from $9 to living wage on the minimum wage salary scale is that nothing is in a vacuum. Everything else scales and slides over to adjust, so the gains aren’t really realized. It’s a bit like inflation in that regards. That’s presupposing a living wage is 2-2.5x current min. wage in a city like Austin.

I think there have been studies that show more modest increases don’t have the same inflationary type response, like say a $15 min wage up from $10, but critics say that’s not enough and the gap is still too large. 

And then we have the same problem I mentioned of the human condition with respect to our evolved sense of justice, fairness, and resentments. The guy making $55k with student loans and time and sacrifice investments into his crappy job looks over at the guy making $45k ($20/hour) for flipping burgers or making coffee. It’s the same dynamic with student loan forgiveness and how it doesn’t emotionally feel good or fair for a population of people.

The problem with this thinking is that you're completely ignoring how much WEALTH is being generated by the economy, and just how much of it is being concentrated at the top and then not going anywhere. Our economy has over a TRILLION USD just sitting in reverse repo markets doing dick, and it was as high as $1,600,000,000,000 during the depths of COVID. 

That is capital that has been concentrated to the top and is now idle doing nothing.

The money is there to pay people, we just have to get the ultra-ultra wealthy to stop hoarding it. 

You need to stop praying at the altar of Reaganomics and trickle down.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

12 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

Commentary more towards the theme of the thread of a growing number of entitled and lazy American workers. 

Where did you come up with this line of thinking?

[Js1 85492]

14 minutes ago, Captainant said:

The problem with this thinking is that you're completely ignoring how much WEALTH is being generated by the economy, and just how much of it is being concentrated at the top and then not going anywhere. Our economy has over a TRILLION USD just sitting in reverse repo markets doing dick, and it was as high as $1,600,000,000,000 during the depths of COVID. 

That is capital that has been concentrated to the top and is now idle doing nothing.

The money is there to pay people, we just have to get the ultra-ultra wealthy to stop hoarding it. 

You need to stop praying at the altar of Reaganomics and trickle down.

Oh something is trickling down, it's just not wealth.

It's class warfare. And also piss. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Js1

[Murfdogg21 4421]

5 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Where did you come up with this line of thinking?

Working with and managing 22-30 year old engineers at two companies in the last decade?

[Starfleet Command 441]

Americans work more hours per year than pretty much any other Western first world worker and yet the problem is Americans are too fucking lazy.  Lol shut the fuck up.  

[Celery Man 20991]

42 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

And there are examples to the contrary as well.  What I'm saying is it's Friday.  I'm off today because I just fucking want to be.  And I'm halfway tempted to drop a pron blast and get hammered by my large and expensive pool

imagine if you could enjoy yourself and feel good about your accomplishments in this way without needing to know that others deserve less

[TwiceHorn 31520]

27 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

There are significantly more disincentives now as compared to them in the way of federal safety net programs that create disincentives to work.

I agree that safety net programs have some tendency to disincentivize work.  But those that are disincentivized are probably damn near impossible to incentivize.

And, as judgey-fun as it is to think/say those people should just starve, it's neither realistic nor humane.  So, I think we have to largely quit worrying about disincentivizing people and make sure most people can get by, which is becoming tougher and tougher to do.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

8 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

Working with and managing 22-30 year old engineers at two companies in the last decade?

About 60% of my company is that age group. Maybe you're not very good at hiring and/or motivating people?

[TwiceHorn 31520]

33 minutes ago, RatJuul said:

The theoretical problem with just sliding the bar over from $9 to living wage on the minimum wage salary scale is that nothing is in a vacuum. Everything else scales and slides over to adjust, so the gains aren’t really realized. It’s a bit like inflation in that regards. That’s presupposing a living wage is 2-2.5x current min. wage in a city like Austin.

I think there have been studies that show more modest increases don’t have the same inflationary type response, like say a $15 min wage up from $10, but critics say that’s not enough and the gap is still too large. 

And then we have the same problem I mentioned of the human condition with respect to our evolved sense of justice, fairness, and resentments. The guy making $55k with student loans and time and sacrifice investments into his crappy job looks over at the guy making $45k ($20/hour) for flipping burgers or making coffee. It’s the same dynamic with student loan forgiveness and how it doesn’t emotionally feel good or fair for a population of people.

In a way, I "get" this jealousy thing regarding some getting student loans forgiven and other, various breaks.

But having thought about it for a while, when the "breaks" aren't completely arbitrary, but an honest attempt to fix a bad, broken policy like student lending, or institutional racism (affirmative action), it strikes me that this jealousy is misplaced and really quite "unbecoming."  It's its own form of entitlement.

[BabaYaga 15304]

11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

  But those that are disincentivized are probably damn near impossible to incentivize.

That's easy to say and almost impossible to validate

 

12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

And, as judgey-fun as it is to think/say those people should just starve, it's neither realistic nor humane.

I don't see anyone saying that?  

[Brisketexan 105206]

We used to crow about how "great" America was (damn, it almost sounds like a slogan, doesn't it?).....precisely BECAUSE with a modicum of hard work, you could make a good life for yourself.  That made us BETTER than China and the like.  Yet now, we're supposed to ADMIRE working like slave labor?  WTF?

And here's an easy way to look at it with real perspective -- again, it's not about dollars.  Dollars are just a unit that we use to acquire things that matter, and that we spend to acquire the skills and credentials to earn more dollars.  Think of it in terms of "hours of labor," both spent and earned.

In 1970, a "middle wage" worker did not have to expend a huge sum of dollars or hours of labor to develop marketable skills.  There were plenty of good jobs available with just a high school diploma, and a college degree from a good state university was so cheap as to be almost free, in today's terms.  So, few dollars OUT to become a good worker.

And the dollars that worker earned at his job from those hours of labor -- at GM, at IBM, at the auto mechanic, at wherever -- were largely enough to pay for housing, a car, and the other basics, with some other pleasures/luxuries (small ones maybe, but niceties just the same) thrown in.  YES, we've always had a poverty class (our formerly large agricultural class was a big chunk of that, for example; sorry, for as much as we admire our grandfathers who were farmers in E. Texas and whatnot, and how hard they worked, they were almost all f'n POOR).  But we ALSO had a much larger middle class, who could breathe somewhat easy -- they had jobs that were good enough, and they had basic security, and they didn't have to kill themselves to get it.

Now, our middle class works harder than any of their western peers, and to a large extent has LESS security and a chance to "breathe easy."  And we're supposed to be more like.....China.....to solve that conundrum?  Dude.  Shit has gotten WAY out of whack.  Stridently denying that, and saying "the problem is, Americans -- who work harder than almost all of their western peers -- are just lazy and don't work hard enough" doesn't fix shit.  It only supports the continuing systemic failures, and makes shit worse.  But, making shit worse is what we do these days -- all gas, no brakes.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Brisketexan

[BabaYaga 15304]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

but an honest attempt to fix a bad, broken policy like student lending, or institutional racism (affirmative action), it strikes me that this jealousy is misplaced and really quite "unbecoming."  It's its own form of entitlement

That's the crux of the argument.  It fixes nothing.  If nothing else, it will only exacerbate the problem.  It's putting a Band-Aid on a festering staph infection.  

It just wipes away a few lines on the balance sheet for a select few, but then right behind them come the next and the next (debt forgiveness).  In many ways, the loans themselves are a huge part of the problem.  Essentially unlimited access to capital has driven a never ending escalatory spiral of costs YOY.  

Is the University of Texas a fundamentally better school now than it was a few decades ago when budgets were a fraction of what they are today?  Maybe in certain ways, but not in all cases.

[workswithseed 2109]

46 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Get a sense of humor already

That's too hard, and might have to pull up his mental bootstraps to think.

[FartingMonk 3608]

21 minutes ago, Starfleet Command said:

Americans work more hours per year than pretty much any other Western first world worker and yet the problem is Americans are too fucking lazy.  Lol shut the fuck up.  

My friend group has talked about this extensively.  We used to brag about how many hours we worked like it was a badge of honor.  How we don't use sick days because sick days were for pussies.  Then I started suffering burnout.  Like bad burnout. A few of the other guys were saying the same thing we just didn't want to be bitches.  But the mindset of being a slave to your job and taking your job home needs to change.  It has as far as my friend group.  Whether it was from burnout.  Realizing that promotion being dangled was just a facade or just feeling it wasn't right that their children were after thoughts.  Your employer only treats you how you allow him to treat you.

[Bateshorn 9928]

2 hours ago, Js1 said:

Tell me more about the iPhones from 50-75 years ago 

I’m old enough to remember when you didn’t actually own your land line phone. You rented it from Ma Bell. And it wasn’t cheap. 

[BabaYaga 15304]

20 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

imagine if you could enjoy yourself and feel good about your accomplishments in this way without needing to know that others deserve less

Enough straw here to feed a horse for a week

[BabaYaga 15304]

3 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

I’m old enough to remember when you didn’t actually own your land line phone. You rented it from Ma Bell. And it wasn’t cheap. 

She was a beech

[Starfleet Command 441]

Just now, FartingMonk said:

My friend group has talked about this extensively.  We used to brag about how many hours we worked like it was a badge of honor.  How we don't use sick days because sick days were for pussies.  Then I started suffering burnout.  Like bad burnout. A few of the other guys were saying the same thing we just didn't want to be bitches.  But the mindset of being a slave to your job and taking your job home needs to change.  It has as far as my friend group.  Whether it was from burnout.  Realizing that promotion being dangled was just a facade or just feeling it wasn't right that their children were after thoughts.  Your employer only treats you how you allow him to treat you.

I just don't understand the mindset of these people.  So you are supposed to be a slave to your employer - work as many hours for as little as possible without complaining - but also remember that raising a stable and loving family is one of the most sacred accomplishments one may garner in life.  Whether or not you agree with the latter, how are there people so stupid they can't see those two things are in direct tension?  

[F250 28809]

32 minutes ago, Starfleet Command said:

Americans work more hours per year than pretty much any other Western first world worker and yet the problem is Americans are too fucking lazy.  Lol shut the fuck up.  

[Bateshorn 9928]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

Is whoring and sleeping your way to the top of the food chain cheating?  Asking for a friend....

Wait, is this an option?  I was not told at orientation this was an option. 

[BabaYaga 15304]

1 minute ago, Bateshorn said:

Wait, is this an option?  I was not told at orientation this was an option. 

Pfffft, rookie....

[FartingMonk 3608]

8 minutes ago, Starfleet Command said:

I just don't understand the mindset of these people.  So you are supposed to be a slave to your employer - work as many hours for as little as possible without complaining - but also remember that raising a stable and loving family is one of the most sacred accomplishments one may garner in life.  Whether or not you agree with the latter, how are there people so stupid they can't see those two things are in direct tension?  

My first chief in the military said something that still has stuck to me til this day when I asked him why he was getting out.  He said look at the guy above you on the career progression.  Don't just look at the job he has.  Look at his home life too.  Ask if that is what you want from your life.  If it's 17 hour days and working on your 3rd divorce then that's great. Oil and gas all of our old guys had that slave mentality where they would do everything for the company because that's what you do and their family "better understand"

 

[Brothahorn 10087]

 
I worked in the MIC for 20 years before shifting full time to my side hustle as a trade.  Covid accelerated my timeline, but I’m amazed at how shitty construction trades pay their work. Almost every trade I see has their entire work force as 1099 contractors and then endlessly bitch about guys not showing up to work. You pay them like shit, cheat them out of benefits just so you can squeeze a little more money out of that pay, and then have the shocked face when guys either don’t give 2 shits about that shitty job, or more likely work multiple 1099 jobs and figure out their day based on whichever guy is paying the most that day/week. I’ve heard an electrician on the job tell his buddy that he was going to be out the next week because a guy hired him to cut firewood and it was paying more. Shit is broken.
 
This is supposed to be skilled labor, many requiring licensing, but you can get better pay and benefits working as a fucking cashier at hobby lobby. We are at the point that we need to hire people, but we recognize that it’s extremely hard to get the appropriate labor out of builders to pay someone a livable wage as an employee, not a 1099.  I know a plumber that was offering to pay $30/hour, no experience, and couldn’t find anyone to take it. Covid woke people up to the value of benefits, and so far I haven’t seen trades really shifting to meet the need. They just hire less qualified/shittier employees trying to maintain that same profit margin. 
 
Your posts back to back made me laugh. It’s very easy to tell people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps while refusing to recognize that there’s a finite limit on “good” jobs. You choose instead to display a textbook example of cognitive dissonance.  You might think low wages are a stick that will force people to climb the ladder, but the reality is there’s only so much room at each rung, and that we need to pay living wages even to the people at the bottom. 

It just absolutely befuddles me that your guy couldn't fill a $30/hr job. Is that considered beneath the average citizen now? The world will always need plumbers.

In my area the 1099s are mostly guys who don't have proper papers. And most will take less money. And that drives down wages.

[FartingMonk 3608]

25 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

 

 

It just absolutely befuddles me that your guy couldn't fill a $30/hr job. Is that considered beneath the average citizen now? The world will always need plumbers.

In my area the 1099s are mostly guys who don't have proper papers. And most will take less money. And that drives down wages.

 

Man.  I get close to 50 bucks an hour changing light bulbs at the Amazon campus and we are completely understaffed.  A lot of guys quit because they feel "under appreciated". I'm like dude, we change light bulbs for 50 bucks an hour and work 4/10s.  You'll survive

[fattyflattie 4638]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

but an honest attempt to fix a bad, broken policy like student lending

Are we fixing that?  Fixing the problem?  Or just purchasing votes?

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Starfleet Command said:

I just don't understand the mindset of these people.  So you are supposed to be a slave to your employer - work as many hours for as little as possible without complaining - but also remember that raising a stable and loving family is one of the most sacred accomplishments one may garner in life.  Whether or not you agree with the latter, how are there people so stupid they can't see those two things are in direct tension?  

No. If the compensation doesn’t justify your effort/ commitment, then leave.

Yes I’ve done it.  For me, it wasn’t even about about money, but rather I felt they weren’t as committed to my customers as I was. It was a beatdown repeatedly getting shut down by your own company.  Changed organizations and thrived.

I use the story as an example to folks who are unhappy.  In the end you owe nobody at work.  Can the guy/gal in the mirror live with the situation today?  If they cannot, then you have a decision to make.  Be honest with yourself, and be happy with what you decide.

Edited May 13, 2022 by slorch

[Brothahorn 10087]

Man.  I get close to 50 bucks an hour changing light bulbs at the Amazon campus and we are completely understaffed.  A lot of guys quit because they feel "under appreciated". I'm like dude, we change light bulbs for 50 bucks an hour and work 4/10s.  You'll survive

For $50/hr, I can go buy me some appreciation when I get off work.

[52-80 19222]

In aggregate, the Chinese work harder. Because they need to, not because they want to. 

Relatively speaking, Americans are more entitled (work vs compensation). Because they can afford to be, not because they need to be.

Different labor markets, so different points of equilibrium. 

Plenty of people in America under water, because they’re down on their luck. Plenty of them also happen to be fucking lazy and degenerate — because why wouldnt there be? 350M breathing souls in 1 country and they all happen to be the world’s cherub, unfortunately, oppressively and systematically trampled by a few monster billionaires?

It’s still very easy to make it in America. Anyone who dont believe that is free to swap passports at Texas’ southern border. 

[Foosters 17862]

5 hours ago, 52-80 said:

 

Median earning of 16M full time Californians is $68k, and for the 5M LA metro is $65k.  Who knows how millions of people out there live, but probably really shitty without Little League participation.  The struggle is real.

I work full time with the working poor and indigent, so I'm happy to shed some light. Roughly 20% of LA's homeless work in minimum wage jobs. Many work 40 hours a week. At the end of their shift, they go to a gym, take a shower, and hop in their car (if they're lucky) for a good night's sleep.

Many families cram together into 1 or 2 bedroom apartments. Back when I used to represent kids in court, it was common to learn that a kid's bed was the living room floor - along with 4-8 other kids in sleeping bags. Sometimes you'd see three families living in a one bedroom, one bathroom. The other option is to live out in San Bernardino or Lancaster and spend 2-3 hours a day commuting. Also, because they don't get paid a living wage, almost all of their existence is subsidized by tax dollars in the form of food stamps and other benefits. So yeah, its a little bit more than just not playing little league or having the newest iphone.

[Scheiss Meister 8408]

Musk's argument is that he prefers slave labor with no hope of advancement, forced to work or starve, to free labor in a country with some ability to advance, making it more expensive and less stable.  It's not about hard working vs lazy, it's that he doesn't like a labor force with choices other than do what he expects of them.  It's that simple.

[Starfleet Command 441]

14 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

In aggregate, the Chinese work harder. Because they need to, not because they want to. 

Relatively speaking, Americans are more entitled (work vs compensation). Because they can afford to be, not because they need to be.

Different labor markets, so different points of equilibrium. 

Plenty of people in America under water, because they’re down on their luck. Plenty of them also happen to be fucking lazy and degenerate — because why wouldnt there be? 350M breathing souls in 1 country and they all happen to be the world’s cherub, unfortunately, oppressively and systematically trampled by a few monster billionaires?

It’s still very easy to make it in America. Anyone who dont believe that is free to swap passports at Texas’ southern border. 

Another reason why it's silly to compare the two countries is that when a high level executive commits fraud or another serious crime in China he or she is executed - shot point blank in the head - for their crimes.  Is Musk willing to put his physical wellbeing at stake for a cheaper and more compliant workforce?  

Edited May 13, 2022 by Starfleet Command

[Nivek 16961]

On 5/11/2022 at 11:06 PM, fattyflattie said:

Current job I'm at, my first project was cleaning up an environmental issue that was nearly catastrophic.  Had been consulting at the time, so came over as a consultant and worked something like 94 days at avg 19 hrs/day.  Every single fucking day. 1250 miles from home.   It was a beating, but necessary due to the sensitivity and potential exposure.  Worst was the job before I had started to consult.   We had legitimate daytime and nighttime only activities.  I would run projects that required both.  Would be onsite about 70 miles from house because PM was required per contract to be onsite, then head home and sleep for a few hours, get up about 2200 and work the overnight hauls.  It was a fucking beating, and it aligned very much with the negative aspects of this thread. I can't tell you how many times I had to just pull over and sleep for an hour or two in the truck on the way home, then just turn around and do the night work.   My nationality prevented me from ever moving up to an executive position there, so was easy to blow them off after roughly 5 years of that day/night shitshow.  

I don't mind the long hours.  When I was offshore, right out of school, we were expected to be on deck/in office for ~20 hours a day.  That shit would go on for months.  But since you were on your own little city out there, not like you were missing going to the bar, chasing women, etc.  There was nothing to do but work.  

eta: currently putting feelers out with some bigger corps that respect work/life balance much more.  This has made me much older than I am in pretty short order. 

This is why I am inspired by the younger generation to say "no" to this kind of bullshit.  Especially when you consider the danger and liability aspects involved and how quick some are to have safety protocols for some workers which are different for others.   One guy can drive for max of 8 hours but can work on location near high pressure lines, cranes, coil-tubing for 12 hour shifts, or another person has no limit being on the same location.   

The costs that accumulate from the damage of those jobs often come after we moved on.   

 I didn't mind the travel aspect of it, I actually enjoyed trying to find something interesting (a small version of the badlands near Farmington NM, waterfall near Lawton, OK, etc.), even Northern BC (near Ft. Laird) was beautiful.   I liked the work actually.  But the toll was getting too much for me to pay and the salary wasn't there to justify it.    But those excessive shifts for weeks to months on end really put it into perspective how I was viewed, and the exodus from that company from other like minded folks had a detrimental impact on the group.

Basically, what it comes down to, is that we shouldn't have had to do those hours.  20 hours should be covered by 2 people.  Another company I went to restricted their guys in my role to 8 hour shifts,  and they still made money.    

 

[52-80 19222]

10 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Many families cram together into 1 or 2 bedroom apartments. Back when I used to represent kids in court, it was common to learn that a kid's bed was the living room floor - along with 4-8 other kids in sleeping bags. Sometimes you'd see three families living in a one bedroom, one bathroom. The other option is to live out in San Bernardino or Lancaster and spend 2-3 hours a day commuting. Also, because they don't get paid a living wage, almost all of their existence is subsidized by tax dollars in the form of food stamps and other benefits. So yeah, its a little bit more than just not playing little league or having the newest iphone.

“Who knows” wasn’t a question, it was an expression. 

I know of at least a few multi-family-shared-apartment, kids sleeping under the stairs situation. Because that was me and my family. 

Unlike what someone *tried* to insult slorch for, im not ashamed or resentful of that upbringing. Im grateful for having received food stamps and other gov benefits - try asking for that where I came from. 

The iPhone equivalent back then would have been a game console, which we never had. But it actually wasnt a pained living, even absent little league. God knows how people live without that now. 

[CooterBrown 18022]

But it actually wasnt a pained living, even absent little league. God knows how people live without that now. 

What’s amusing about the little league thing and the select travel volleyball comments up thread is that all those leagues have financial hardship scholarships. I know my daughter’s soccer league is free for like 30% of the kids. I have no issue at all paying full price to cover some kids. Same thing when we were looking at select volleyball for my oldest. Every program had scholarships and travel cost coverage for kids in need. On my daughter’s HS team, one of the girls who does select is on a scholarship for it. Her mom, grandma, and sister all live together in a 1 bedroom apartment. Just because they participate in those things doesn’t mean shit about the parents’ finances.

[Fudge Nuggets 19211]

On 5/11/2022 at 11:06 PM, fattyflattie said:

When I was offshore, right out of school, we were expected to be on deck/in office for ~20 hours a day.  That shit would go on for months. 

I’ve been in O&G for 25 years and probably 90% of that time was offshore or directly supporting offshore operations. Your scenario has NEVER been the case so spare us your bullshit. 

[TXSG8R 3362]

1 hour ago, Brothahorn said:

 

 

It just absolutely befuddles me that your guy couldn't fill a $30/hr job. Is that considered beneath the average citizen now? The world will always need plumbers.

In my area the 1099s are mostly guys who don't have proper papers. And most will take less money. And that drives down wages.

 

This was peak covid. People were definitely more aware of being a 1099 guy and the risk of being laid up in a hospital with jack shit for medical. I don’t see guys that can’t get papers in the licensed trades much in this area. Electricians and plumbers are almost entirely other than brown around here. They are the ones I see bitch the most about workers not showing up. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

Unlike what someone *tried* to insult slorch for, im not ashamed or resentful of that upbringing. Im grateful for having received food stamps and other gov benefits - try asking for that where I came from. 

since that was directed at me...in no way, shape or form was i trying to insult slorch. if i wanted to insult slorch i would just call him a moron like i normally do.

i was just throwing out a potential reason for why he's so full of contempt for poor people.

Edited May 13, 2022 by DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt
words are hard