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[News/Updates] Mass Shooting at Robb Elementary Uvalde - 5/24/2022


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11 hours ago, Humble Beast said:

I generally don’t like cops and these guys all fucked up majorly but that falls on their leaders to make them do their jobs they were trained to do. They chose the job, but being a Uvalde cop does not stress you in that way, so you’re not prepared. You just give speeding tickets. 
 

Until you’ve been in life and death situations you don’t know how you’ll handle it. I’m guessing a lot of the people maddest about it, never have been in one. A lot of you that are most emotional would fuck up. Just saying. 

The Uvalde Police Dept. S.W.A.T.

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6 minutes ago, Hawndoh said:

As a teacher, I've been doing lockdown drills for 15 years now. All of the procedures are designed to buy time until police arrive.

Now all of those procedures have to be reevaluated. I've thought through countless scenarios with our building layout and my classroom and what options there are if something goes down. Now I have to add on the "well what do we do if the cops ignore us" to the equation.

I can't count on the police. That's the reality now. If things go down, we are on our own.

And before someone inevitably comes along and says "well statistically you never have to worry about it, blah blah," I can't afford to not think about it or be prepared. In 15 years teaching I've had 3 students I thought capable of a school shooting. 1 of them I'm convinced would have done it if he ever got hold of a weapon. That one eventually grew up, got denied from joining the marines, and ended up killing his grandma and going to prison.

 

@Goredho beat me to it, but I also thank you for your service.  My wife and I both come from families of teachers.  Although we don't have the teaching gift ourselves, we have a good understanding of what it takes and what sacrifices teachers make.  As the last several years show, your service is every bit as important to the future and safety of our country as military service.  It's disgusting that teaching is also becoming as dangerous as military service.  You are appreciated.

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Sorry man, the cops were not facing battle hardened German soldiers in position with heavy weapons. They were facing an Incel with the following combat experience. 
1- Online gaming. 
2- Shot Grandmother
3- in process of murdering kids and teachers. 
You charge him. You take his ass out. Lets stop making excuses for the officers. They knew where the gunman was. Protocol is engage. That is what is taught. You don't wait for superiors. You engage. 

panic is real and contagious. It explains what happened. The initial responders were outgunned and retreated. They panicked. Everyone after were impacted by it. Planners and trainers need to understand this and learn from it
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As a teacher, I've been doing lockdown drills for 15 years now. All of the procedures are designed to buy time until police arrive.
Now all of those procedures have to be reevaluated. I've thought through countless scenarios with our building layout and my classroom and what options there are if something goes down. Now I have to add on the "well what do we do if the cops ignore us" to the equation.
I can't count on the police. That's the reality now. If things go down, we are on our own.
And before someone inevitably comes along and says "well statistically you never have to worry about it, blah blah," I can't afford to not think about it or be prepared. In 15 years teaching I've had 3 students I thought capable of a school shooting. 1 of them I'm convinced would have done it if he ever got hold of a weapon. That one eventually grew up, got denied from joining the marines, and ended up killing his grandma and going to prison.
 

And this is why I have nothing but contempt for cops. They have made it clear that this teacher is on his own. That’s beyond pathetic - it’s evil.
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"Since the Columbine school massacre in 1999, many police departments have trained officers to go after an attacker as a matter of priority. After the shooting at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut, in 2012, the FBI was given jurisdiction over mass shootings.

That led to a series of FBI initiatives to train local law enforcement agencies in how to respond, including the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training (Alerrt) program, which was developed in Texas.

The first officers to arrive last Tuesday were from the Uvalde city police, which has some Swat capability and about 40 officers. But command of the incident was taken by Uvalde Consolidated Independent school district police department, a separate division that has six officers and oversees security for eight local schools, the Washington Post reported.

According to Uvalde’s school district police Facebook page, the small department hosted active shooter training at Uvalde high school in March.

“Our overall goal is to train every Uvalde area law enforcement officer so that we can prepare as best as possible for any situation that may arise,” it read.

In 2019, the Texas legislature passed a measure requiring that all school police officers undergo the training, and noted the shift in law enforcement tactics since Columbine and the failures of the Parkland response. An arriving officer’s “first priority is to move in and confront the attacker”, the state curriculum advises.

“First responders to the active shooter scene will usually be required to place themselves in harm’s way and display uncommon acts of courage to save the innocent,” the Texas curriculum states.

The 2020 state manual adds: “A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/28/uvalde-school-shooting-police-procedures-columbine

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

The above that I bolded, underlined and placed in italics is self-explanatory: No excuses for this at fucking all. I am willing to excuse the one officer who lost everything that was disarmed and removed from the building who lost his wife in the classroom. Bears repeating for the TLDR crowd:

“First responders to the active shooter scene will usually be required to place themselves in harm’s way and display uncommon acts of courage to save the innocent,” the Texas curriculum states.

The 2020 state manual adds: “A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field.”

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1 hour ago, Eskimohorn said:


panic is real and contagious. It explains what happened. The initial responders were outgunned and retreated. They panicked. Everyone after were impacted by it. Planners and trainers need to understand this and learn from it

What are you talking about?  The first group of cops into the building numbered at least seven, and at least two of them were armed similarly to the shooter.  The rest had high capacity semiautomatic pistols.  The had superior arms and superior numbers, but the video isn't clear that they even returned fire in the initial encounter. 

Panic is acute; cowardice is chronic.  They had time to calm down, formulate a plan, and hit back hard and fast.  They chose not to do so.  How is that difficult to accept?

Edited by Scheiss Meister
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10 hours ago, MadBurgerMaker said:

What is the process for disbanding a city PD in Texas?  Has this been done before?

Seems like it would be pretty easy to just transfer the assets and funding to the county sheriff's office.   It's not like we don't have layers and layers of law enforcement to compete with each other.

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40 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:


panic is real and contagious. It explains what happened. The initial responders were outgunned and retreated. They panicked. Everyone after were impacted by it. Planners and trainers need to understand this and learn from it

Outgunned? What are you talking about 

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3 minutes ago, Scheiss Meister said:

What are you talking about?  Thee first group of cops into the building numbered at least seven, and at least two of them were armed similarly to the shooter.  The rest had high capacity semiautomatic pistols.  The had superior arms and superior numbers, but the video isn't clear that they even returned fire in the initial encounter. 

Panic is acute; cowardice is chronic.  They had time to calm down, formulate a plan, and hit back hard and fast.  They chose not to do so.  How is that difficult to accept?

And one would assume trained to react to this situation. Versus someone who is not trained. 

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They werent outgunned

The first few guys looked like they had pistols. Correct? Those guys choked. Like at Parkland. In countless other situations.

Once groups of responders showed up amidst the chaos and see dudes standing around, you need a leader to step up. Some tried and were shut down.

They were inclined to think this was scenario C and it was scenario A. It needed more urgency. They were more likely to dismiss training because it meant putting themselves in harm’s way in a situation they probably never came close to experiencing. And others in front of them werent moving.

Explaining away that they were pussies is inadequate. Part of the training is instilling enough confidence in training that when an Upham or Dike freezes, you can move past them.
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2 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:


The first few guys looked like they had pistols. Correct? Those guys choked. Like at Parkland. In countless other situations.

Once groups of responders showed up amidst the chaos and see dudes standing around, you need a leader to step up. Some tried and were shut down.

They were inclined to think this was scenario C and it was scenario A. It needed more urgency. They were more likely to dismiss training because it meant putting themselves in harm’s way in a situation they probably never came close to experiencing. And others in front of them werent moving.

Explaining away that they were pussies is inadequate. Part of the training is instilling enough confidence in training that when an Upham or Dike freezes, you can move past them.

7 cops, 2 with assault weapons. They were not outgunned in anyway. Even if it was 3 dudes armed only with pistols they weren’t outgunned. The shooter was isolated in a space that should have pretty easily been able to be covered by cops with pistols. As @immamac said, the shooter can’t cover 270 degrees while being shot at

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1 hour ago, Hawndoh said:

As a teacher, I've been doing lockdown drills for 15 years now. All of the procedures are designed to buy time until police arrive.

Now all of those procedures have to be reevaluated. I've thought through countless scenarios with our building layout and my classroom and what options there are if something goes down. Now I have to add on the "well what do we do if the cops ignore us" to the equation.

I can't count on the police. That's the reality now. If things go down, we are on our own.

And before someone inevitably comes along and says "well statistically you never have to worry about it, blah blah," I can't afford to not think about it or be prepared. In 15 years teaching I've had 3 students I thought capable of a school shooting. 1 of them I'm convinced would have done it if he ever got hold of a weapon. That one eventually grew up, got denied from joining the marines, and ended up killing his grandma and going to prison.

 

Wife and I were talking about this the other day.

How many of those kids live if the teachers ignored protocol, like the police officers did, and let them run out of the classroom?

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It's about command and control.  Fire fighters teach this.  Police teach this.  Military teaches this.  They failed at that and that's what failed everything else.  No one knew who was in charge.  You know how you watch movies and the guy takes over and say hey I'm local PD I'm in charge, I'm state patrol I'm in charge, and I'm FBI I'm in charge.  That's what needed to happen.  Instead they said hey school police you're in charge and even though you aren't making any decisions we are gonna stand around and not take charge.  People don't understand 95 percent of failure is because of lack of communication.  They charged into each other's fire lanes.  They weren't on the same radio channels.  They have training and then they have training.  A real active shooter scenario training was fucking intense.  You have people screaming for help.  You aren't supposed to stop and help them you have to keep rushing forward to kill the bad guy.  They probably sat through a Teams meeting where the dude gave a PowerPoint and congratulated what a good job everyone was doing.

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Quote

How many of those kids live if the teachers ignored protocol, like the police officers did, and let them run out of the classroom?

Actually, fleeing is part of the protocol. It's made very clear to all teachers and students that if running and escaping seems like the best option, if you know where the threat is and there is a clear path away from the threat, you are totally within your right to run.

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58 minutes ago, Eskimohorn said:


panic is real and contagious. It explains what happened. The initial responders were outgunned and retreated. They panicked. Everyone after were impacted by it. Planners and trainers need to understand this and learn from it

An initial responder, the fat guy that got grazed in the ear had access to rifles and other protective gear by the time he went back up toward the door and kneeled down to wait for the gunman to exit or for someone else to charge in. He could have picked equal type weapon and opened the door. If the gunman was even looking at it right then, he could have gotten the ball rolling by opening the fucking door and engaging like he is supposed to. 

He is the guy the mayor spoke up about as risking his life but he really didn't. He had no intention of engaging. He wasn't going to risk more than an ear graze. And the man that lost his wife may have got kicked out initially but then shows up on camera with a weapon later. He never tries to go near the door. 

These small town cops is who the mayor is trying to cover for because the other LE agencies want to throw them under the bus. But they were all there standing around until one chucklefuck found his balls and breached the door. Then they had to be held back after the fact from going in. They all wanted to charge in then.

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2 hours ago, Eskimohorn said:


Explaining away that they were pussies is inadequate. Part of the training is instilling enough confidence in training that when an Upham or Dike freezes, you can move past them.

Imagine typing out a take that compares this Uvalde situation with dozens of trained grown men officers vs 1 untrained incel kid to fighting fucking Nazi's in ww2.

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Nah, I think you guys are being a little too harsh on Eskimohorn.  That's part of the training.  Imagine going to a training and you have 8 hours to finish it and no matter how shitty the guys do you have to pass them.  If you fail them or have harsh words for them they fill out a critique sheet at the end of the day and say you were a shitty instructor so they go with another company who isn't so mean next time.  

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Also panic is contagious and real is a very accurate statement.  The guys show up they see officer retreating out white as a ghost. Ok he got nicked in the ear.  Ears bleed a fucking lot.  So you see this and are like oh fuck.  No one steps up so now you have the thought man, the ear is right next to the head.  He could have gotten his head blown off.  That energy travels really fast.  If someone stood up and said we got kids in there are we men or are we bitches let's get them.  That would get you out of that thought.  They didn't.  They stood there and were content to be bitches.  

 

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2 hours ago, Hawndoh said:

Actually, fleeing is part of the protocol. It's made very clear to all teachers and students that if running and escaping seems like the best option, if you know where the threat is and there is a clear path away from the threat, you are totally within your right to run.


Yes, the CRASE (citizen response to active shooter event) training is ADD, avoid, deny, defend. Your first option is run.

Sadly, had these teachers sent their kids out the other direction the result may have been different. Denying, in this instance, failed.

I will tell you that while I agree that one child would be one too many, but few if any of the children who died could have been saved even by an immediate medical response.

 

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As a teacher, I've been doing lockdown drills for 15 years now. All of the procedures are designed to buy time until police arrive.
Now all of those procedures have to be reevaluated. I've thought through countless scenarios with our building layout and my classroom and what options there are if something goes down. Now I have to add on the "well what do we do if the cops ignore us" to the equation.
I can't count on the police. That's the reality now. If things go down, we are on our own.
And before someone inevitably comes along and says "well statistically you never have to worry about it, blah blah," I can't afford to not think about it or be prepared. In 15 years teaching I've had 3 students I thought capable of a school shooting. 1 of them I'm convinced would have done it if he ever got hold of a weapon. That one eventually grew up, got denied from joining the marines, and ended up killing his grandma and going to prison.
 

Thank you for putting into words exactly what I’m feeling as a school counselor. I’ve been in education 20+ years , do all the trainings and drills and always am aware/vigilant about “what if” and escape routes,defense ‘weapons’, etc. Now it feels like ‘uhhh, yea…about the police protection…not gonna happen. Good luck!’ Of course all of the ‘mass shootings’ are horrendous, but seeing the fucking cops do nothing as children/teachers were terrorized just hit me hard. We are on our own…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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3 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Seems like it would be pretty easy to just transfer the assets and funding to the county sheriff's office.   It's not like we don't have layers and layers of law enforcement to compete with each other.

I'm pretty sure there were sheriff's deputies standing around with their thumbs up their asses in that hallway too.

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Imagine typing out a take that compares this Uvalde situation with dozens of trained grown men officers vs 1 untrained incel kid to fighting fucking Nazi's in ww2.


Corporal Upham from SPP was armed and failed to act to help his buddy take on a single nazi w a knife. Sounds familiar, doesnt it?
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Unrestricted access to firearms has led us to a point where one disturbed young person can obtain enough firepower to simply erase a roomful of people in minutes.  This should not be possible.
Uvalde's "well regulated militia" arrived within minutes with more people and guns that the perp, but cowardly refused to take action.  This isn't just a today thing ... Whitman happened 50 years ago but now we have cameras showing us what this looks like.  Imagine what it looked like in the room.  Early on, the video has pop-ups every few seconds that say "audio has been muted to remove sounds of children screaming".  That is horrible.
So stop it already.  Rapid fire weapons should NOT be available to the public.  Clearly the police are afraid of one person with such a weapon and their response is to do nothing or run away.  From children trapped in a room.  Even after an hour of getting reinforcements, you see police running away when the shooting starts at the end.  Horrible.
I was always wary of the need for school ISD police departments.  I'm now convinced that they have no value and should be disbanded.  Give money to the teachers or just put in enough doors so that kids can run for their lives.
Every school has a few kids that are a little outside the envelope and *could* take a turn towards school shooter.  A lot of times, teachers and students see this happening and know who these kids are years before they act out.  We should be trying to help these kids earlier in life and make darn sure that they are kept far far away from guns and ammo.

Commie liar.

What we need is more guns. Lots more. Arm the school kids with an AR each, it’s the only way.
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Every school has a few kids that are a little outside the envelope and *could* take a turn towards school shooter.  A lot of times, teachers and students see this happening and know who these kids are years before they act out.  We should be trying to help these kids earlier in life and make darn sure that they are kept far far away from guns and ammo.


EXACTLY!! As a counselor I have several students with very concerning behaviors each year, but the system is so weak. WE see it in schools as staff/teachers, but no one seems to listen. It’s so frustrating!
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9 minutes ago, Surlymermaid said:

EXACTLY!! As a counselor I have several students with very concerning behaviors each year, but the system is so weak. WE see it in schools as staff/teachers, but no one seems to listen. It’s so frustrating!

 

What are you talking about? The problem is clearly videogames and porn and insufficiently fortified classrooms

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I would trust you, a trained Marine, over these cops. I’m telling you these guys are not military. You graduate high school, then go to the Junior College and get certified and become a cop. 
 
This whole disaster has been really weird. When you know a story more closely than the news heavily reporting it, you realize how much the reporting can shade things. 

If someone cannot handle life and death situations they should not be given lethal weapons.
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On 7/14/2022 at 10:01 AM, Hawndoh said:

As a teacher, I've been doing lockdown drills for 15 years now. All of the procedures are designed to buy time until police arrive.

Now all of those procedures have to be reevaluated. I've thought through countless scenarios with our building layout and my classroom and what options there are if something goes down. Now I have to add on the "well what do we do if the cops ignore us" to the equation.

I can't count on the police. That's the reality now. If things go down, we are on our own.

And before someone inevitably comes along and says "well statistically you never have to worry about it, blah blah," I can't afford to not think about it or be prepared. In 15 years teaching I've had 3 students I thought capable of a school shooting. 1 of them I'm convinced would have done it if he ever got hold of a weapon. That one eventually grew up, got denied from joining the marines, and ended up killing his grandma and going to prison.

 

Yep,  My wife is the receptionist at the local high school (started in May) and I asked her if they are going to update procedures after this event.  She said they are going to go though training again next week.

I told her that after she locks shit down and hits the alarm she needs to just run and get out of there, get to the parking lot, something.  This cover up and wait shit is bullshit if the cops never go in.

 

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Yep,  My wife is the receptionist at the local high school (started in May) and I asked her if they are going to update procedures after this event.  She said they are going to go though training again next week.
I told her that after she locks shit down and hits the alarm she needs to just run and get out of there, get to the parking lot, something.  This cover up and wait shit is bullshit if the cops never go in.
 

Maybe do a LinkedIn search on the parents of each school and predetermine several veterans to coordinate a response team. I would have said identify cops but I am not sure they would save their own kids.
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6 minutes ago, Nivek said:


Maybe do a LinkedIn search on the parents of each school and predetermine several veterans to coordinate a response team. I would have said identify cops but I am not sure they would save their own kids.

The cops would react more strongly to the response team than to the shooter.  Cops cannot tolerate the thought of someone cutting in on their territory, especially if they might show up the cops.

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48 minutes ago, Scheiss Meister said:

The cops would react more strongly to the response team than to the shooter.  Cops cannot tolerate the thought of someone cutting in on their territory, especially if they might show up the cops.

don't call the cops. 

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1 hour ago, Scheiss Meister said:

The cops would react more strongly to the response team than to the shooter.  Cops cannot tolerate the thought of someone cutting in on their territory, especially if they might show up the cops.

You have a person of color run the other direction to distract them. 

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1 hour ago, Nivek said:

don't call the cops. 

Someone is going to call them, bet on it.  When they arrive, guarantee that their first action will be to protect their turf.  They did at Uvalde by detaining the one woman and pushing the agry citizens back.  Cops cannot abide competition or outside direction.

40 minutes ago, Deej said:

You have a person of color run the other direction to distract them. 

This could work.

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4 hours ago, Nivek said:

don't call the cops. 

Uh, between students and staff there are likely 1200 cell phones on campus. Someone is calling the cops.

Also I think if the real lockdown alarm is hit it calls first responders automatically.

Edited by Hawndoh
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Don't make it an either/or focus.  It's all shit.

Yep. Per my post in the other thread, the report shows that as a society, we failed here from start to finish. From the 10,000 red flags well before the shooting, to the effortless access to massively lethal firearms, to every aspect of security and response.

This is the society and system that we’ve built and then worked tirelessly to perpetuate. Now we get to enjoy the shattered and bloody fruits of our labor.
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