[Discussion] Mass Shooting at Uvalde Elementary School

[aggie08 21,504]

"Guys, crazy people are going to find a way to kill people regardless. Without easy access to guns, he could have just as easily killed 20 people with a bowling ball or whatever the fuck. Don't blame the guns; we need to fortify our schools...and every other public place that people gather in mass."

Jesus fucking Christ.

[BabaYaga 15,296]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And.......he was able to purchase two ARs more easily than I can buy a new iPhone (less paperwork and boxes to check).  We let obviously dangerous people have access to incredibly lethal weaponry with fewer hassles than signing up for a new electric utility account.

Stop.  Letting.  Obviously dangerous people.  Acquire weapons of mass murder.  We could start there.  I'd love that as a simple start, I really would.  Red flag laws have been proposed repeatedly.  They are shot down in flames every time, by the exact same NRA-funded crowd.

As for "hardening the target?"  With an AR, I can shoot through almost any lock or door except a Federal Supermax prison gate.  There was a cop at the school here.  The shooter dropped him.

He had to have passed a background check to get those if obtained legally.  So now what?  He was reported multiple times apparently.  Red Flag laws?  Define how in this instance it would have deterred his psychotic spree?  His parents tried to kick him out multiple times, but is there any indication he made threats about shootings?

Align red flag laws and mental health?  That has been the constant in every one of these?  The mental health of the young shooter.  I can get behind that, but how does the definition and implementation look like?

[F250 28,774]

Same people crafting laws to make it very difficult for a woman to get an abortion, "I have no idea how we can prevent gun violence."

 

[BurntOrange&White 39,931]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

He had to have passed a background check to get those if obtained legally.  So now what?  He was reported multiple times apparently.  Red Flag laws?  Define how in this instance it would have deterred his psychotic spree?  His parents tried to kick him out multiple times, but is there any indication he made threats about shootings?

Align red flag laws and mental health?  That has been the constant in every one of these?  The mental health of the young shooter.  I can get behind that, but how does the definition and implementation look like?

That background check is a fucking joke. 

[BabaYaga 15,296]

6 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

That background check is a fucking joke. 

It needs to be more robust (it was an FBI NICS check), but from what has been posted, the police had been to his house multiple times, but only as domestic disputes.  Lots of yelling and screaming, but no violence.  Does the LEO log that and it gets flagged when the check goes through?  

Edited May 25, 2022 by BabaYaga

[F250 28,774]

3 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

That background check is a fucking joke. 

What if the legal age to buy a rifle is the same as the age to buy a beer? Regardless of the background check this dude isn't buying those guns at 18 years old if it was the same as buying alcohol.

 

[safe sex 11,724]

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Imagine advocating "hardening NICUs" because "there's just no other way to stop people from shooting up baby nurseries."  If we were having that conversation about any country, we would immediately conclude "holy shit.....that is one UTTERLY fucked up place.  They need to worry about a WHOLE bunch of other shit."

That's where we are.  We are talking about hardening places where little children are because.....welp, there's just nothing else we can do.  Guess we need to learn to live with it I guess.

We are deeply, deeply broken.  There's no fixing us.

Exactly. The NICU design that would best allow healthcare workers to care for critically ill babies would also be the best thing for a person who wanted to kill everyone in the room.

[wildcat09 29,354]

Is it any surprise that the guy who has posted a link to a nazi site is advocating turning every public place in America into a fortress before infringing on his ability to buy a gun in under 30 minutes?

[SydneyCarton 48,100]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

It needs to be more robust (it was an FBI NICS check), but from what has been posted, the police had been to his house multiple times, but only as domestic disputes.  Lots of yelling and screaming, but no violence.  Does the LEO log that and it gets flagged when the check goes through?  

How about making buying guns have at least the same amount of requirements as getting a fucking driver's license? Classes, Tests, certain age, and, oh, I don't know, plenty of opportunity for licensed people to maybe look at a candidate and think "Maybe this guy shouldn't have this."

[BabaYaga 15,296]

2 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

How about making buying guns have at least the same amount of requirements as getting a fucking driver's license? Classes, Tests, certain age, and, oh, I don't know, plenty of opportunity for licensed people to maybe look at a candidate and think "Maybe this guy shouldn't have this."

I'd have no issues with mandatory safety classes.  Many states require them.  If they are like the older CHL classes, they would be next no worthless.  

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

18 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

Yes the best way to describe it is it’s like a motel design. Classes are in wings and the classroom doors open to outside. 

I've always thought one good idea would be to have a moat around every school with a drawbridge. 

[BabaYaga 15,296]

9 minutes ago, F250 said:

What if the legal age to buy a rifle is the same as the age to buy a beer? Regardless of the background check this dude isn't buying those guns at 18 years old if it was the same as buying alcohol.

 

Raise the minimum age to 25.  This doesn't negate the owner passing the gun down, but if there is liability for improper storage and use by someone under that age, the culpability is on the owner.  

[Pato del Muerto 52,497]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Raise the minimum age to 25.  This doesn't negate the owner passing the gun down, but if there is liability for improper storage and use by someone under that age, the culpability is on the owner.  

Rental car companies have determined that it’s in their best interest to only do business with 25 and older, because of how the younger abuse their product.   Can’t be having that with firearms though.  Because we need to be able to put down the US army if need be and a bunch of untrained people with small arms is how we do it. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Raise the minimum age to 25.  This doesn't negate the owner passing the gun down, but if there is liability for improper storage and use by someone under that age, the culpability is on the owner.  

slippery slope you're encroaching on people's rights, man.

[aggie08 21,504]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Raise the minimum age to 25.  This doesn't negate the owner passing the gun down, but if there is liability for improper storage and use by someone under that age, the culpability is on the owner.  

Those are nice words. Truly. Have you ever voted for a single person who would advocate for this?

[SydneyCarton 48,100]

1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Rental car companies have determined that it’s in their best interest to only do business with 25 and older, because of how the younger abuse their product.   Can’t be having that with firearms though.  Because we need to be able to put down the US army if need be and a bunch of untrained people with small arms is how we do it. 

That’s why we let everyone have ARs, sir. 

[F250 28,774]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Raise the minimum age to 25.  This doesn't negate the owner passing the gun down, but if there is liability for improper storage and use by someone under that age, the culpability is on the owner.  

This would be a good start.

[Snake Diggity 4,624]

Higher age limit, waiting periods, more extensive background checks, insurance requirements, training requirements, ANY of that would help.

[Murfdogg21 4,412]

2 minutes ago, Snake Diggity said:

Higher age limit, waiting periods, more extensive background checks, insurance requirements, training requirements, ANY of that would help.

Raising the age to 21 would knock down several of these types of shootings. 3+ day waiting period would stop some “crimes of passion” but I don’t have a clue how many. 
 

Every time this happens, I suggest a middle ground compromise that gun buyers should have a valid psych evaluation on a database somewhere so when the FFL does your background check, it also verifies that you passed an interview with a psychologist. It’s not registration, but if we make sure you have adequate vision for a drivers license, we should require you not be a rage-filled, incel psychopath to buy a gun. Typically conservatives think that is too restrictive and liberals want guns/high cap magazines banned and/or registered. 

[Serak The Preparer 3,431]

@HeHateMe @BabaYaga @Immaculate Vibes and others who keep talking about hardening or reimaging schools - it is nonsensical.

 

As @TXSG8R put it in another thread:

2 hours ago, TXSG8R said:

It is impossible to harden a school to the point that it would be immune to a mass shooting. Even if you could overcome the tax burden (lol), there are just too many events that make school “school”, that renders all the walls, doors, etc a moot point. Even if you secure every door, put in a gun proof screening entry area, move playgrounds indoors or behind walls big enough to prevent shooting angles, add bulletproof auto locking interior doors, etc etc, you still aren’t there. Those mitigations assume a static environment, and schools are anything but. Kids still have to move in and out of Fort Knox Elementary every day, and the mitigations that make it more makes it harder to get in and out of. You just made the next school shooting have a more specific time (drop off or pick up). 

Nott if we have armed officers at every school at those times, checkmate libtard! Again, assuming we overcome the tax burden for that too (more lol), it’s still a pipe dream. Pick up and drop off are pure fucking chaos, and even a small army of cops couldn’t adequately cover the volume of potential threats in that environment, but let’s say you cover the base. Now the target shifts to school busses.  Even if you secure the loading of kids at the school, that bus is exposed to risk at every stop. What is stopping a nut from standing at a bus stop from just hopping on when the doors open and going ham?  Are we hiring armed security for every bus too?  You don’t even need to get on the bus, the sheet metal on a bus would probably struggle to stop a BB.  Are we going to up armor busses?  

Hardening the target is a fucking bullshit deflection by the NRA and their well paid spokespeople. We can’t harden schools, theaters, grocery stores, etc. The only realistic solution is reducing access to firearms, but we as a nation don’t have the guts to attempt it. 

A voluntary 1% increase in tax (as HeHateMe) suggested doesn't even begin to approach a solution. Anyone suggesting the solution is hardening schools is the equivalent of Michael Scott screaming "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY". Either we do something about access to guns or we say killing kids is the price of freedom.

[Michael Knight 12,977]

9 hours ago, HeHateMe said:

It’s sad that this is our “new normal” in this country.  Columbine was a massive event that rocked our nation, and now we are so desensitized to these senseless killings that this will be a blip on the news cycle radar by this time next week.  Makes me feel sick.  Innocent children getting slaughtered deserve more.  My daughter is in her last week of kindergarten and my son is not far behind.  These actions are nightmare fuel.  As others have mentioned, it is unlikely that this will be the tipping point to help better safeguard our children and society against future acts of senseless violence.  Two knee jerk thoughts come to mind that I think could potentially make a difference, or who knows, maybe I’m drunk.

1) I would gladly opt into a voluntary city tax of 1%, for the next 3-5 years, to help fortify the public schools in our district.  I’m the last guy who wants my kids to feel like they are attending school in a prison, but I know I’d sleep better at night if there was a barrier to help deter, slow down and possibly prevent this from happening again.  I’m sure that I’m not the only parent of school age children who would do the same.

2) Maybe I’m wrong, but aren’t the “kids” that shoot up schools the kids that can’t get laid and don’t have much luck with the ladies?  I know nothing about the shithead that did this, but I’m guessing that he falls into that category.  Half the country has legalized pot, why not prostitution?  Regulate it and tax it but give the outcasts a legal chance to get their dicks wet and maybe they’d be less angry.  I know it’s a long shot, but why the hell not try?

Wow CR much?

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

4 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

@HeHateMe @BabaYaga @Immaculate Vibes and others who keep talking about hardening or reimaging schools - it is nonsensical.

 

As @TXSG8R put it in another thread:

A voluntary 1% increase in tax (as HeHateMe) suggested doesn't even begin to approach a solution. Anyone suggesting the solution is hardening schools is the equivalent of Michael Scott screaming "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY". Either we do something about access to guns or we say killing kids is the price of freedom.

I’ve offered no such comments. 

[Fondren & Main 6,715]

25 sounds good to me.  I don’t think I bought any guns until I passed that age.

I also took a safety course before ever considering owning a gun.  I learned a lot there.  Make that a requirement moving forward.

[BabaYaga 15,296]

3 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

@HeHateMe @BabaYaga @Immaculate Vibes and others who keep talking about hardening or reimaging schools - it is nonsensical.

 

As @TXSG8R put it in another thread:

A voluntary 1% increase in tax (as HeHateMe) suggested doesn't even begin to approach a solution. Anyone suggesting the solution is hardening schools is the equivalent of Michael Scott screaming "I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY". Either we do something about access to guns or we say killing kids is the price of freedom.

I'm only suggesting what has been utilized effectively in many inner cities.  Metal detectors.  Armed security.  More robust locking double doors.  Alarms.  Cameras.  

[Gatorubet 30,238]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

So no more gun and ammo purchases?  That's it?  

The point was he was crazy, destructive, and psychotic.  Talk about taking a gun from him to stop his rage is like arguing taking away a knife and fork is going to help a compulsive eater lose weight.  

Those stupid traffic and speed signs- like that will make a person not speed or pass on a curve…..

[SydneyCarton 48,100]

8 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I'm only suggesting what has been utilized effectively in many inner cities.  Metal detectors.  Armed security.  More robust locking double doors.  Alarms.  Cameras.  

Define your metric of "utilized effectively." That there haven't been any shootings in inner city schools in the last 5 years? 10? The absence of a crime isn't proof of effective deterrence. 

[Serak The Preparer 3,431]

12 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

I’ve offered no such comments. 

I stand corrected, I did some skimming of the thread and misread your posts.

[morehornsepower 887]

1. Should we make it harder to get near our kids?

2. Should we make it harder to get guns?

3. Should we reduce the # of times someone decides to take the lives of innocents.

If all we focus on is #1 and #2, are we just accepting that #3 is a fact of our society?  Is this something that is present in other societies, or was present in earlier societies (did this shit happen in the 1950s and we just didn't hear about it)?  What kind of a fucked up world do we live in, where people are doing this shit, seemingly more and more often? 

 

[GabrielsHorn 2,183]

31 minutes ago, Snake Diggity said:

Higher age limit, waiting periods, more extensive background checks, insurance requirements, training requirements, ANY of that would help.

Red flag laws are absolutely needed as well. 

[TexEx15 17,522]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

So a guy that carved up his own face with a knife and murdered his own grandmother would be dissuaded by "harder" laws?  do we even know if the gun was obtained legally?  I'm not pushing back, but what exactly does this look like?  A waiting period?  A background?  Many places have those already, especially the background which is required on every purchase.  

Let’s start here. Ban assault style weapons and high capacity magazines for all weapons. Increase age to purchase a gun to 25. Ban private sales. Close loopholes. Institute waiting periods and ensure robust background checks are performed on every sale. Ban the sale of body armor. 

[El Tri 412]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

What policy's specifically negate crazy?  Because this fuck nut was crazy.  Bullied at school.  Multiple fights.  Cut up and carved up his own face.  Murdered his grandmother.  Led the police on a chase to a school.

They keep going after schools ala copycat killers because the schools are "soft".  You want bipartisan support?  Harden the schools.  Not turn them into prisons, but fund ways to better lock them down.  Apparently this was an older design, with doors that led directly to the outside.  No inner hallway.  He was able to go right in, and probably then lock the doors from the inside.

But this guy was bat-crap crazy.  Who's to say his chase doesn't coincide with recess and he tries to plow his truck into a line of walking kids?  

maybe the fucking policy that allowed this fuck nut to purchase 2 fucking AR-15s the day he turned 18? FUCK YOU

[TexEx15 17,522]

18 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I'm only suggesting what has been utilized effectively in many inner cities.  Metal detectors.  Armed security.  More robust locking double doors.  Alarms.  Cameras.  

Let’s live in a war zone so long as you can buy a new assault style weapon every weekend. Amiright!

[MonkeyDoughnut 10,234]

11 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I'm only suggesting what has been utilized effectively in many inner cities.  Metal detectors.  Armed security.  More robust locking double doors.  Alarms.  Cameras.  

Can you name the inner city school massacres before these were implemented? I'm trying to find one.

[Foosters 17,856]

22 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

25 sounds good to me.  I don’t think I bought any guns until I passed that age.

I also took a safety course before ever considering owning a gun.  I learned a lot there.  Make that a requirement moving forward.

Sorry. California just tried this at age 21. 9th circuit struck it down. You'll never guess which side was fighting it tooth and nail.

[Neonmoon 38,129]

10 minutes ago, morehornsepower said:

1. Should we make it harder to get near our kids?

2. Should we make it harder to get guns?

3. Should we reduce the # of times someone decides to take the lives of innocents.

If all we focus on is #1 and #2, are we just accepting that #3 is a fact of our society?  Is this something that is present in other societies, or was present in earlier societies (did this shit happen in the 1950s and we just didn't hear about it)?  What kind of a fucked up world do we live in, where people are doing this shit, seemingly more and more often? 

 

#3 is a fact of humanity. It is present in other societies today. It has been present in every society in the history of humans. This shit happened in the 1950s. People have always hurt other people. 

Why does it happen more in the US? Access to Guns

 

[StruggleBus 3,922]

8 minutes ago, TexEx15 said:

Let’s start here. Ban assault style weapons and high capacity magazines for all weapons. Increase age to purchase a gun to 25. Ban private sales. Close loopholes. Institute waiting periods and ensure robust background checks are performed on every sale. Ban the sale of body armor. 

Agree with all of these. I think I mentioned it in another thread, but ban anything that isn't a shotgun, wheel gun, or single action rifle. High cap mags an semi auto weapons (both rifle and pistol) make it too easy to kill en masse. It's not impossible to go on a mass murdering spree with a 38 special, but it's going to be way fucking harder. 

 

[DigglerontheHoof 21,198]

29 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I'm only suggesting what has been utilized effectively in many inner cities.  Metal detectors.  Armed security.  More robust locking double doors.  Alarms.  Cameras.  

Hey, get them used to prison early, amiright?  Smoother transition 

[MontereyMX 869]

19 hours ago, Porterhouse said:

I don’t have a CHL and am about to get one because of the apparent increase in these incidents particularly since quarantining has ceased. 

I can’t believe this continues to happen at schools. 

As stated it’s not required but get it anyway.  Very valuable information and training! 

[F250 28,774]

8 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Sorry. California just tried this at age 21. 9th circuit struck it down. You'll never guess which side was fighting it tooth and nail.

The age minimum needs to be changed at the federal level. I believe something was recently proposed requiring the age for rifles to be the same as handguns.

Voters need to go Herb Brooks on politicians until they pass meaningful gun laws. Keep blowing the whistle and yelling "Again" until they get it done.

 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,101]

This is what needs to happen.

1.  Complete ban on the sale of high capacity magazines and bump stocks.

2.  Before you are eligible to buy a gun, you have to take a mandatory gun safety and training course.  You must retake one every 10 years (like a passport).   And like a passport, a background check is required to be able to pass the class.

3.  Close the gunshow loophole.  All sales and purchases of guns must be done through a licensed third party, like a gun shop.  

4.  If you are purchasing a gun within 6 months of your licensure, a background check is not required.  However, any purchase more than 6 months from that licensure would require a new background check.  Also, for any gun purchase, there is a 30 day waiting period before you can take your gun (that should allow cooler heads to prevail).

5.  The federal registry and red flag laws need to be much more robust. 

That is all I have.

 

 

[SydneyCarton 48,100]

8 minutes ago, F250 said:

The age minimum needs to be changed at the federal level. I believe something was recently proposed requiring the age for rifles to be the same as handguns.

Voters need to go Herb Brooks on politicians until they pass meaningful gun laws. Keep blowing the whistle and yelling "Again" until they get it done.

 

[Foosters 17,856]

8 minutes ago, F250 said:

The age minimum needs to be changed at the federal level. I believe something was recently proposed requiring the age for rifles to be the same as handguns.

Voters need to go Herb Brooks on politicians until they pass meaningful gun laws. Keep blowing the whistle and yelling "Again" until they get it done.

 

A Federal court already struck down a state law age limit as being violative of the 2nd. Why would a Federal law be any different?

Every single law, regulation, and restriction all of you have proposed on this board will be struck down by federal courts. Congress could pass bipartisan (lol) gun regulation tomorrow and it would be enjoined and eventually struck down by the courts.

Only real solution involves packing the courts. Good luck.

[Pig Bellmont 8,717]

 

[pops 6,985]

Here's what I would suggest as a start:

Revolvers and shotguns:  state background check with 10 day wait.

Any semi automatic weapon or long gun: ATF background check. You can have the gun when cleared. Would probably need to improve the process....and maybe it is quicker now but it took me 10 months to get my suppressor. 

Every gun needs to be licensed and it lasts 3 years. 

Yeah yeah... only the criminals will have the guns,  whatever. I'm a responsible gun owner and I would prefer everyone else to be also. 

[staboner 4,969]

20 hours ago, South Austin said:

Not a lick of change will follow this.

sorry man. 

the hopelessness of it juxtaposed to the pics of the kids too much for me today. 

hope you homies are well for the most part. 

 

[Herbie Hancock 7,347]

This is the third or fourth time I’ve seen bump stocks referenced to needing to be outlawed. As of March 2019 bump stocks are illegal to possess by anyone for any reason.

[South Austin 52,498]

8 minutes ago, synoptic said:

In the portable school building example, they could bar the door and light it on fire.  They could walk in with a bat or crowbar and likely take out most of the class. 

[TXSG8R 3,362]

9 minutes ago, synoptic said:

I'm for most of the gun regulations proposed in this thread.  But the fundamental problem is that there are a seemingly growing number of individuals in modern society that want to kill groups of people they have no previous connection with.  The reality is that it is not very hard for an adult to kill groups of children.  In the portable school building example, they could bar the door and light it on fire.  They could walk in with a bat or crowbar and likely take out most of the class.  It's terrible to think about but a young man that has his mind set on killing as many children as possible is going to succeed to some degree, with or without guns.      

19 kids and 2 adults aren’t going to be beaten to death with a crowbar in 30 minutes. It’s a hell of a lot harder to hit running kids with a crowbar than it is with bullets. Guns exponentially increases the chances of mass casualty event over a knife attack, especially when there is a running clock on the response. Is there still a risk of death without a gun?  Sure, but I’ll take those odds over a guy with a semi auto weapon and multiple magazines of ammo 7 days a week. 

[StruggleBus 3,922]

3 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

19 kids and 2 adults aren’t going to be beaten to death with a crowbar in 30 minutes. It’s a hell of a lot harder to hit running kids with a crowbar than it is with bullets. Guns exponentially increases the chances of mass casualty event over a knife attack, especially when there is a running clock on the response. Is there still a risk of death without a gun?  Sure, but I’ll take those odds over a guy with a semi auto weapon and multiple magazines of ammo 7 days a week. 

Exactly. We aren't going to eliminate risk, but it can be significantly reduced. Some psycho fuck walking into a school with a revolver and a pocket full of ammo is going to have a much tougher time than the guy with an AR and 10 preloaded 30 round mags. 

[MoJames 8,244]

Bring back COVID.