[Discussion] Mass Shooting at Uvalde Elementary School

[The Ace of Aces 5175]

The real solution is to melt any and all automatic rifles or large magazine clips, and make selling body armor to the general public illegal. But this country is too far gone to do anything to save a life that is outside the womb.   

[YChang 3443]

It's weirdly fascinating how some of us in this community/society... either just blatantly ignores or isn't brave enough to go through the discomfort of considering or looking at possible root causes of problems. Instead it's straight to band-aid solutions.

[synoptic 138]

6 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

19 kids and 2 adults aren’t going to be beaten to death with a crowbar in 30 minutes. It’s a hell of a lot harder to hit running kids with a crowbar than it is with bullets. Guns exponentially increases the chances of mass casualty event over a knife attack, especially when there is a running clock on the response. Is there still a risk of death without a gun?  Sure, but I’ll take those odds over a guy with a semi auto weapon and multiple magazines of ammo 7 days a week. 

Again, I'm for most of the gun laws proposed in this thread and I agree that in certain instances an individual will inflict fewer casualties without the use of guns.  But if a person wants to kill groups of children and doesn't have access to guns, then they will figure some other way.  It's naive to think these simple gun restrictions will fix the problem.  The highest mass casualty events often don't involve guns.    

[wildcat09 29347]

20 minutes ago, synoptic said:

I'm for most of the gun regulations proposed in this thread.  But the fundamental problem is that there are a seemingly growing number of individuals in modern society that want to kill groups of people they have no previous connection with.  The reality is that it is not very hard for an adult to kill groups of children.  In the portable school building example, they could bar the door and light it on fire.  They could walk in with a bat or crowbar and likely take out most of the class.  It's terrible to think about but a young man that has his mind set on killing as many children as possible is going to succeed to some degree, with or without guns.      

This dude has spent time contemplating carrying out mass murder.

[Macanudo 12975]

4 minutes ago, synoptic said:

  The highest mass casualty events often don't involve guns.    

Show your work.   

[irishtexan 11515]

Fuck off to anyone who uses the old "if a person is crazy he's going to find a way to kill a lot of people. are we going to ban cars next?". It has no relevance to a discussion about how to reduce mass shooter events. 

 

[synoptic 138]

1 minute ago, Macanudo said:

Show your work.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack#:~:text=On the evening of 14,a Tunisian living in France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

 

 

 

1 minute ago, irishtexan said:

Fuck off to anyone who uses the old "if a person is crazy he's going to find a way to kill a lot of people. are we going to ban cars next?". It has no relevance to a discussion about how to reduce mass shooter events. 

 

Yes, by definition that is true.

[irishtexan 11515]

Also, don't tell me it's exclusively a mental health issue while also reducing access to affordable mental health and/or not requiring insurance companies to cover it as part of a health insurance plan. Fuck off with that "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" bullshit.

[SydneyCarton 48064]

2 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

Fuck off to anyone who uses the old "if a person is crazy he's going to find a way to kill a lot of people. are we going to ban cars next?". It has no relevance to a discussion about how to reduce mass shooter events. 

 

At least cars require a license and registration. 

[MoJames 8244]

Just now, irishtexan said:

Also, don't tell me it's exclusively a mental health issue while also reducing access to affordable mental health and/or not requiring insurance companies to cover it as part of a health insurance plan. Fuck off with that "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" bullshit.

Easiest way to show how quickly this argument falters is realize that mental health issues are prevalent around the world and the tools used around the world for mental health are often much less than what we have available in the US despite our fucked up healthcare system.

[mdmost 43001]

3 minutes ago, synoptic said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack#:~:text=On the evening of 14,a Tunisian living in France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

 

 

 

Yes, by definition that is true.

12 terrorists crashed 3 planes into buildings 20 years ago and we fundamentally changed how you could access airplanes, airplane cockpits, airports, installed massive security systems, and created a billion dollar agency to help ensure it never happened again. But yeah, we can't do anything to solve something that's going to happen one way or the other. 

[Your Mom 4805]

2 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

I'm only suggesting what has been utilized effectively in many inner cities.  Metal detectors.  Armed security.  More robust locking double doors.  Alarms.  Cameras.  

On every portable classroom?  At every classroom door on every campus that has outdoor common areas and classroom doors on the outside?  My kids' elementary school had 20+ doors on it's exterior when you count the portable classrooms, that's just ones I can remember off the top of my head.  Pretty typical campus.  I was at a track meet recently at a school with every classroom facing an outdoor common area.  Easily 100+ doors there.

So now the state that can't put a resource cop at every campus is now going to put a couple dozen at every campus along with all that equipment?  When that trillion dollar bond comes across the ballot to pay for all this, when the country has predictably forgotten about this shooting and moved on like we always do, what are the chances people vote for that kind of tax increase?  You're living in a fantasy world if you think that is practical or even at all feasible.  

[Foosters 17843]

Why work to defeat cancer?

Probably will die from something else anyway.

 

[Macanudo 12975]

7 minutes ago, synoptic said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack#:~:text=On the evening of 14,a Tunisian living in France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

 

 

 

Yes, by definition that is true.

Congrats.    You just showed us two from the last 27 years.   Now add up the numbers of dead American kids killed at school over that time period.  

[synoptic 138]

8 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

Also, don't tell me it's exclusively a mental health issue while also reducing access to affordable mental health and/or not requiring insurance companies to cover it as part of a health insurance plan. Fuck off with that "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" bullshit.

I stated twice I'm for most of the proposed changes to gun laws.  I think those will have some beneficial impact. 

 

3 minutes ago, mdmost said:

12 terrorists crashed 3 planes into buildings 20 years ago and we fundamentally changed how you could access airplanes, airplane cockpits, airports, installed massive security systems, and created a billion dollar agency to help ensure it never happened again. But yeah, we can't do anything to solve something that's going to happen one way or the other. 

Who stated this? I think there are additional things we could do as a society beyond mere gun restriction laws to identify and stop potential killers.  

 

 

[SydneyCarton 48064]

So Beto O’Rourke just interrupted abbot’s press conference and made a scene. It’ll be everywhere shortly. 
 

predictably was skewered for making this political. 

[po elvis 2070]

19 minutes ago, YChang said:

It's weirdly fascinating how some of us in this community/society... either just blatantly ignores or isn't brave enough to go through the discomfort of considering or looking at possible root causes of problems. Instead it's straight to band-aid solutions.

Yup. All of us have bullied people in our lives. All of our children have. We all contribute to this. Look at this site. It is full of people bullying on one hand and pointing fingers on the other.

But I honestly have no clue how you get kids who are not mature to act mature towards other kids. Its always going to be there. You really have to start with the band aid of restricting access to these guns and then hope you can do something about the root cause at some point.

[mdmost 43001]

I look at the photos of those young boys. The asshole that did this used to be one of those kids. He used to be innocent. What happened to turn him into someone capable of murdering children who look like he once did? Why do we allow him the tools to carry out those murders? Why don't we do something about it?

[Helobious 9451]

5 minutes ago, mdmost said:

I look at the photos of those young boys. The asshole that did this used to be one of those kids. He used to be innocent. What happened to turn him into someone capable of murdering children who look like he once did? Why do we allow him the tools to carry out those murders? Why don't we do something about it?

Details emerging about him, typical broken kid in this country. Prone to fights and violent remarks, habitually truant student with bad grades, a loner, loved weapons & boxing/mma, lived with his grandmother after being kicked out of his mom’s. No dad in the picture.

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022/05/25/classmates-of-uvalde-shooter-said-he-was-aggressive-for-no-reason-had-immediate-red-flags/ 

[DDD Dad 14328]

23 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

So Beto O’Rourke just interrupted abbot’s press conference and made a scene. It’ll be everywhere shortly. 
 

predictably was skewered for making this political. 

Well it is.  Political.  I'll show myself out.

[synoptic 138]

To clarify my position, I think certain gun restrictions are the bare minimum.  I think there should also be restrictions by how such events get reported and what information about the killers is made available, as there are groups of young men who go online and glorify these killers and dream up plans to hurt as many people as possible; I think this should also be actively followed and shut down.  Didn't mean to ruffle feathers during a tragedy.     

Edited May 25, 2022 by synoptic

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

41 minutes ago, MoJames said:

Easiest way to show how quickly this argument falters is realize that mental health issues are prevalent around the world and the tools used around the world for mental health are often much less than what we have available in the US despite our fucked up healthcare system.

What about video games? Maybe that's it?

[Helobious 9451]

1 minute ago, synoptic said:

To clarify my position, I think certain gun restrictions are the bare minimum.  I think there should also be restrictions by how such events get reported and what information about the killers is made available, as there are groups of young men that online who glorify these killers and dream up plans to hurt as many people as possible; I think this should also be actively followed and shut down.  Didn't mean to ruffle feathers during a tragedy.     

Tv networks don’t show fans that run in the field/court during a game for similar reasons. People still do it. 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19100]

1 hour ago, Herbie Hancock said:

This is the third or fourth time I’ve seen bump stocks referenced to needing to be outlawed. As of March 2019 bump stocks are illegal to possess by anyone for any reason.

That is good.  High capacity magazines are still readily available.  

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4975]

48 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

At least cars require a license and registration. 

Nope. Just to drive them on public roads.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

26 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Why don't we do something about it?

Because lobbying by corporate interests has completely destroyed our political system.

[Brisketexan 105080]

55 minutes ago, YChang said:

It's weirdly fascinating how some of us in this community/society... either just blatantly ignores or isn't brave enough to go through the discomfort of considering or looking at possible root causes of problems. Instead it's straight to band-aid solutions.

Oh, that ship has sailed.  This country is full-on nihilist death cult, and we CHEER IT.  Inflicting pain on other people is a political and cultural ACHIEVEMENT, not a failure.  We are broken, all the way down.

I can write what I'm sure would be a super-well received treatise starting at the basics: change how we think of our fellow human being, and perhaps we value empathy instead of deriding it and treating it as a liability, all the way up through our education system, our healthcare system, our utter lack of a mental health system, how the gun-owner community has allowed firearms to be made into a religious cult instead of a tool to be treated respectfully and carefully, to how we should have meaningful regulation and restrictions on lawful activities (we have them on speech, the ability to travel, etc.....but guns are somehow completely off-limits), etc.

But it's all a dead letter.  We will do absolutely NONE of those things.  Not because they are hard, but because they are stridently opposed.

[twosheds 374]

1 hour ago, MoJames said:

Bring back COVID.

I know you jest, but the wife mentioned earlier that she saw some nutjob Q'ers on her facebook say that the uptick in covid cases will be a planned diversion from this tragedy.  People are screwed in the head.  There is really no other explanation.

[DaysOff 7947]

Low hanging fruit that wouldn’t directly address the problem but would help: a requirement for all classrooms to have 2 adults at all times, ideally as part of a dramatic reduction in student/teacher ratio.  This would mitigate the risk of situations like this but would also address a multitude of other problems in our education system.  If I could enact one single change in our country, it would be to reduce student/teacher ratios dramatically.

Don't take this as a personal attack, but you must not have a spouse that works in the district. THERE. IS. NO. FUNDING. FOR. ANYTHING.*






*except Taj mahals for administration and football stadiums

[DaysOff 7947]

What if the legal age to buy a rifle is the same as the age to buy a beer? Regardless of the background check this dude isn't buying those guns at 18 years old if it was the same as buying alcohol.
 

18 year old me would kick my ass for saying this, but it needs to be 25 for both. If your frontal lobe is fully developed yet, you shouldn't be messing with either.

[Snake Diggity 4620]

7 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

Don't take this as a personal attack, but you must not have a spouse that works in the district. THERE. IS. NO. FUNDING. FOR. ANYTHING.*






*except Taj mahals for administration and football stadiums

Low hanging fruit was a poor choice of words.  I meant that politically as compared to gun control.  I realize getting the money for something like that would be near impossible.  Just feels like there has to be the societal will to do something significant.

[BurntOrange&White 39930]

9 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

Don't take this as a personal attack, but you must not have a spouse that works in the district. THERE. IS. NO. FUNDING. FOR. ANYTHING.*






*except Taj mahals for administration and football stadiums

Yup, public schools are cutting positions, they're understaffed, and from what I've read over the last 5-6 years there has been a 25%'ish reduction in new teacher certifications. On top of the funding getting taken away the burden of stuff that doesn't really apply to teaching students is getting increased.

 

The state keeps on throwing more and more bullshit "data" the teachers have to log and track of each pupil that takes away from teach time. Kids aren't kids anymore from the way I see it....they're a number driven by data and pushed through a system the state doesn't want to fund.

 

 

My wife is a teacher and just hearing all the bullshit that gets pushed down through the state onto the districts is ridiculous. I wouldn't blame any teacher that wants to get out of the field going forward.

Edited May 25, 2022 by BurntOrange&White

[Captainant 27639]

4 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

Kids aren't kids anymore from the way I see it....they're a number driven by data and pushed through a system the state doesn't want to fund.

Well we can't leave any child behind, remember?

[Pig Bellmont 8712]

58 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

So Beto O’Rourke just interrupted abbot’s press conference and made a scene. It’ll be everywhere shortly. 
 

predictably was skewered for making this political. 

Those cowards on stage hide behind the grief of parents with dead kids. Of course it’s political. Also, Beto is right- they’ve done nothing and this will continue to happen until  laws change. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

At least cars require a license and registration. 

 

35 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Nope. Just to drive them on public roads.

[BurntOrange&White 39930]

11 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

Those cowards on stage hide behind the grief of parents with dead kids. Of course it’s political. Also, Beto is right- they’ve done nothing and this will continue to happen until  laws change. 

While I agree that he is mostly right, I don't agree with all his philosophies on gun control, but that press conference wasn't the time or place for that kind of outburst.

[UnivTex34 1763]

1 minute ago, BurntOrange&White said:

While I agree that he is mostly right, I don't agree with all his philosophies on gun control, but that press conference wasn't the time or place for that kind of outburst.

So those morons get to grandstand on the bodies of those dead kids but its not the time and place for Beto?

 

What am I missing?

 

 

[Captainant 27639]

3 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

While I agree that he is mostly right, I don't agree with all his philosophies on gun control, but that press conference wasn't the time or place for that kind of outburst.

So should we wait until the batch of dead children before we actually start talking about what we can do to dial it back?

If it's really all about mental health as abbott and friends would have us believe, then why are they pilfering hundreds of millions from TX DHHS to pay for a fucking border wall?

Seems like you just don't like to see abbott get called out for his empty excuses

[BurntOrange&White 39930]

Just now, UnivTex34 said:

So those morons get to grandstand on the bodies of those dead kids but its not the time and place for Beto?

 

What am I missing?

 

 

You don't make a political posturing move at a press conference like that the very next day after the loss of that many lives. If you want to attack on the campaign trail that is one thing....but that press conference wasn't the place.

[DalTxHornFan 3097]

Just now, UnivTex34 said:

So those morons get to grandstand on the bodies of those dead kids but its not the time and place for Beto?

 

What am I missing?

 

 

The fact that Mr. O'Rourke is not an elected official with any jurisdiction in this matter, perhaps?

[UnivTex34 1763]

Just now, BurntOrange&White said:

You don't make a political posturing move at a press conference like that the very next day after the loss of that many lives. If you want to attack on the campaign trail that is one thing....but that press conference wasn't the place.

They were literally using the press conference for this purpose. 

[Herbie Hancock 7345]

So those morons get to grandstand on the bodies of those dead kids but its not the time and place for Beto?
 
What am I missing?
 
 

I haven’t watched it yet so this is a legitimate question, but how were they grandstanding in this specific instance? Was it not a simple press conference about the incident?

[Planet Houston 4930]

1 minute ago, BurntOrange&White said:

You don't make a political posturing move at a press conference like that the very next day after the loss of that many lives.

What the fuck do you think that press conference is, in and of itself? 

[UnivTex34 1763]

1 minute ago, DalTxHornFan said:

The fact that Mr. O'Rourke is not an elected official with any jurisdiction in this matter, perhaps?

So arrest him. Just don't give me the bullshit that they were not using the press conference a political stand as well. It's horse shit.

[Planet Houston 4930]

2 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

The fact that Mr. O'Rourke is not an elected official with any jurisdiction in this matter, perhaps?

So you can politicize something if you’re an elected official that enabled the tragedy, but not if you’re running against said elected official. Got it. 

[UnivTex34 1763]

Just now, Herbie Hancock said:

I haven’t watched it yet so this is a legitimate question, but how were they grandstanding in this specific instance? Was it not a simple press conference about the incident?

Patting themselves on the back for law enforcement response keeping it from being worse, giving excuses for why it was inevitable, blaming mental health and not a gun problem. 

 

If it is a simple PC, then why was it not just the Gov? Why the dream team? It was a political stunt.

[BurntOrange&White 39930]

1 minute ago, UnivTex34 said:

Patting themselves on the back for law enforcement response keeping it from being worse, giving excuses for why it was inevitable, blaming mental health and not a gun problem. 

 

If it is a simple PC, then why was it not just the Gov? Why the dream team? It was a political stunt.

If you think that outburst helps Beto, you're a fool. I dislike him and Abbott but that was not a smart move by him. Like I said, he's mostly correct but that wasn't the time to do that.

Edited May 25, 2022 by BurntOrange&White

[UnivTex34 1763]

Just now, BurntOrange&White said:

If you think that outburst helps Beto, you're a fool. I dislike him and Abbott but that was not a smart move by him. 

I didn't say that. 

But there is absolutely no difference in what they were doing at that PC than what he did.

 

 

[Slacks 6819]

19 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Good job tying yourself to the worldview of Bernard. If you’re looking for more wrongheaded points of view @Snacks is still lighting candles to the shrine of Greg Davis. 

GOCAT!

[Godzillatron 292]

Those cowards on stage hide behind the grief of parents with dead kids. Of course it’s political. Also, Beto is right- they’ve done nothing and this will continue to happen until  laws change. 

Regardless, wrong place wrong time