The American Death Spiral and Your Plan

[Goredho 17650]

If the shit truly hits the fan, I’m going to move next to Alex Jones and preemptively eat him.  I figure he will yield a good 4 months of sustenance for my family.  After that, I dunno.  Probably go see what I can scrounge at the ruins of Enchiladas Y Mas.

[CooterBrown 18287]

Folks eying Canada, you better be able to cut a big check. They require you to pay into their universal healthcare, I believe. Something like 400k per person on arrival. And it’s generally hard to get citizenship. 
 
Someone posted an article from one of the firms that specialize in this, that internet and demand in Golden Visas across the world has gone up by like 3000% since 2017 or so. It’s all rich people unsure about the future of America and wanting a way out. 
 
Australia’s golden visa is closed now, but before that it was 5 million. Portugals is still cheap like 500k. 

That may be the case if you’re retired but not for someone working age. You can also get an expat insurance policy from any major carrier that will cover you completely for about 10% of the cost of a US policy.

You can start paying in when you start working there as part of your standard taxes. You just need to get a company to sponsor you. It’s actually not too difficult since there’s professional worker shortage there too.

If you go to college there, you get an automatic 3 year visa and expedited permanent resident status if you apply. If it’s your kid, they can sponsor their parents for residence.

[Firemans4Horn 18528]

Been going down the rabbit hole on the Portuguese Golden Visa. Already passed the biggest hurdle and got the wife on board. 
 

Would give us citizenship in 6-7 years which lines up with my timeline with very little time commitment (7 days a year). 
 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-nomad-capitalist-audio-experience/id984715472?i=1000560553725

[Nice Guy Eddie 13725]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

Folks eying Canada, you better be able to cut a big check. They require you to pay into their universal healthcare, I believe. Something like 400k per person on arrival. And it’s generally hard to get citizenship. 
 

Someone posted an article from one of the firms that specialize in this, that internet and demand in Golden Visas across the world has gone up by like 3000% since 2017 or so. It’s all rich people unsure about the future of America and wanting a way out. 
 

Australia’s golden visa is closed now, but before that it was 5 million. Portugals is still cheap like 500k. 

Having money is always the ticket to freedom or at least escaping many society problems. Own property outright and even the complete collapse of the stock market and/or runaway inflation has a lower impact as your expenses can be low.

 

 

[Js1 87175]

23 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

That may be the case if you’re retired but not for someone working age. You can also get an expat insurance policy from any major carrier that will cover you completely for about 10% of the cost of a US policy.

You can start paying in when you start working there as part of your standard taxes. You just need to get a company to sponsor you. It’s actually not too difficult since there’s professional worker shortage there too.

If you go to college there, you get an automatic 3 year visa and expedited permanent resident status if you apply. If it’s your kid, they can sponsor their parents for residence.

My job has a Toronto office. Looking mighty sexy tbh

[Hawndoh 2409]

My plan is to continue teaching young people in a public school. Trying to make them better people than their parents were is the only way out of this that I can see. Current adults are too far gone to change.

So either we will succeed and we will slowly get better each generation, or I'll die in a school shooting. Possibly both.

[Al_4_ISU 12623]

6 hours ago, Vegas64 said:

I think climate is much more of a concern but if you are concerned with both political failure and climate, Canada is probably a good idea.

I think a midwest hamlet or enclave which was previously "too cold" for us Texans would be a good investment as the weather will be trending to mild and nice in the next 20-100 years and the weather will get worse in the South and North and East and West (as well as the coastlines). A present day mid-sized midwest city that could be the next big or cool city could be a great investment to get in cheap before the climate change.

I feel like we've gone through periods of unrest and extreme divisiveness in the past and it never seems to be existential (famous last words), so I don't put much stock in the doom spiral or domestic sky is falling. I think back to eras of like McCarthyism and the 50's with Jim Crow and segregation and even the Vietnam war era and draw hope and encouragement that this too shall pass. The worm will turn and then another cycle of unknown and unforeseeable depravity will have us circling the drain in 25 years during the next death spiral cycle, and turtles all the way down.

This is generally spot on, especially regarding the cycles of unrest and posterity.

But if you're looking for climate change relief in the Midwest, good luck.  Unless you're talking like Michigan or Ohio or something along a Great Lake, the western Midwest has seen the weather get absolutely bat shit crazy (it was stupid to begin with).  There was a tornado bearing down on my town in December of last year.  We have 100 degree highs in the summer and -30 lows in the winter.  It could snow in May.  It could be 65 in January.  For a good chunk of the year, you need to run the heat in the morning and switch to AC in the afternoon.  In the winter we get ice storms that knock the power out for days, as well as pure white out blizzards where you could get lost and die 100' from your house.  We have derechos now, which are basically landlocked hurricanes that level everything in their path.  The weather in the Midwest is trying to kill you about 2/3rds of the time, one way or the other.

But mid-sized Midwestern cities are great places to avoid the absurdity of modern America.  They're a long ways to the left of their Trumpy rural hinterlands, but with a couple notable exceptions, have a long ways to go to catch up with west coast crazy left wing stuff.  These places are becoming asylums for moderate rural folks looking to escape the excessively facist attitudes growing in rural America.  Des Moines, Omaha, Sioux Falls, Wichita, etc.  Even some of the bigger ones like KC and Milwaukee are still quite sane.  The Twin Cities have moderated since the 2020 unrest as well.

[Bevo14 8468]

Canada? I thought you guys were trying to escape to a better place. I'll be damned before some MAGA buttmonkeys chase me to that shithole.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Bevo14

[CooterBrown 18287]

Here’s also the thing with taxes. To compare apples to apples, from the US you need to add together Fed Tax, Sales Tax, State Tax, Property Tax, and Health Insurance/Out of Pocket healthcare when comparing it against Canada or any other country. You gotta fill those same buckets for the other country to truly compare the costs. You may find out that their high tax rate isn’t as high as you’ve been led to believe.

[Js1 87175]

2 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Here’s also the thing with taxes. To compare apples to apples, from the US you need to add together Fed Tax, Sales Tax, State Tax, Property Tax, and Health Insurance/Out of Pocket healthcare when comparing it against Canada or any other country. You gotta fill those same buckets for the other country to truly compare the costs. You may find out that their high tax rate isn’t as high as you’ve been led to believe.

This is correct. My dad tried to be like “50% of your paycheck in taxes?” only if you believe right wing media 

It’s like 30% when i looked into it. I pay 22% now in federal taxes or something, not including sales taxes and health care costs? 

[Underdog 29165]

22 minutes ago, Js1 said:

My job has a Toronto office. Looking mighty sexy tbh

You or Toronto?  PM pending. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Underdog

[TXSG8R 3362]

Ideally sell all my shit and head to Ireland, golden visa there is a million euros I believe. Of course that’s assuming I can sell my shit at a decent price.  Knowing my luck the housing bubble will pop while the rest of this shit is burning down around us. 

[CooterBrown 18287]

This is correct. My dad tried to be like “50% of your paycheck in taxes?” only if you believe right wing media 
It’s like 30% when i looked into it. I pay 22% now in federal taxes or something, not including sales taxes and health care costs? 

I briefly looked at the residency requires for the UK. For immigrants to buy into the NHS system, it’s like a one time £500 fee and then you just pay in via your income taxes. If you don’t pay the fee, your bill is 150% of the cost…which is still lower than cash pay costs in the US.

[The Original Greaser Bob 2888]

47 minutes ago, Firemans4Horn said:

Been going down the rabbit hole on the Portuguese Golden Visa.

Encontrar um bilhete dourado!

[Starfleet Command 441]

52 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

That may be the case if you’re retired but not for someone working age. You can also get an expat insurance policy from any major carrier that will cover you completely for about 10% of the cost of a US policy.

You can start paying in when you start working there as part of your standard taxes. You just need to get a company to sponsor you. It’s actually not too difficult since there’s professional worker shortage there too.

If you go to college there, you get an automatic 3 year visa and expedited permanent resident status if you apply. If it’s your kid, they can sponsor their parents for residence.

Yeah, I have a friend who began working in Toronto after graduating law school and he certainly didn't fork over $400,000.  He's now a dual citizen.

[ClubWhatever 12284]

Everybody has a plan until they get hit in the mouth.  Go with the flow.  Be the ball.

[The Original Greaser Bob 2888]

As to the answer to the thread title, I'm kinda hoping the end is this nice:

[The Original Greaser Bob 2888]

I mean, your last American memory could be a lot worse than hugging Diego Luna.

[Js1 87175]

3 minutes ago, Starfleet Command said:

Yeah, I have a friend who began working in Toronto after graduating law school and he certainly didn't fork over $400,000.  He's now a dual citizen.

I have two different non-Canadian friends who moved to Canada for work and neither did this either.

Either it's misinformation or it's only for non-working/retired folks. 

I know everyone is Surly 1% here, but the income limit where you don't get double taxed by the US is up to $112,000 as of this year. 

[TXSG8R 3362]

Should have added, my son graduates UT next year and is already planning doing his grad work overseas, preferably Japan. His roommate is doing his grad work in Germany, neither is planning on coming back. 

[Biff Tannen 46155]

8 hours ago, Hermanator said:

As long as my parents are here I'll be here. As long as my daughter is here I'll be here. If she moves somewhere else the wife and I probably will too. 

If none of them are left then I'll post up on South Padre living like crazy until my money runs out then head several miles north on the shoreline, walk into the water, and blow my head off. 

[Vegas64 713]

23 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

Ideally sell all my shit and head to Ireland, golden visa there is a million euros I believe. Of course that’s assuming I can sell my shit at a decent price.  Knowing my luck the housing bubble will pop while the rest of this shit is burning down around us. 

Maybe good timing if you are looking at now as the strong dollar and weak euro has them almost at parity 1:1 for first time in ever? So your dollar will go a lot further, instead of it being $1.5mm USD. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

I really struggle with this. We left the states on November 4, 2020. I went to bed the night before incredibly depressed knowing 50+ million Americans witnessed the previous 4 years and decided they wanted more. I woke up the next morning to discover my elected representative in the house was gun-toting, lunatic bimbo with a GED. It was just a very depressing, surreal feeling.

I honestly don't know if we'll ever go back, which makes me sad. Every country you could possibly consider has its own set of problems, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a place on earth with the same level of toxicity as the US. It feels completely broken and appears headed towards even greater polarization/toxicity. It's just sad.

[tx 3 putt 78672]

7 hours ago, Hmbre97 said:

Fly a banner over D.C. 

"The GOP is not our standard"

bop someone on the nose 

[Al_4_ISU 12623]

3 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

I really struggle with this. We left the states on November 4, 2020. I went to bed the night before incredibly depressed knowing 50+ million Americans witnessed the previous 4 years and decided they wanted more. I woke up the next morning to discover my elected representative in the house was gun-toting, lunatic bimbo with a GED. It was just a very depressing, surreal feeling.

I honestly don't know if we'll ever go back, which makes me sad. Every country you could possibly consider has its own set of problems, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a place on earth with the same level of toxicity as the US. It feels completely broken and appears headed towards even greater polarization/toxicity. It's just sad.

I mean, Russia is currently headed by a murderous dictator and in the midst of waging a fully unjust war on it's neighbor.  But ok.

The US is very toxic right now, especially compared to the 1980's-early 00's, but this is a ridiculous statement.

[TXSG8R 3362]

12 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

Maybe good timing if you are looking at now as the strong dollar and weak euro has them almost at parity 1:1 for first time in ever? So your dollar will go a lot further, instead of it being $1.5mm USD. 

Agreed, but the wife isn’t ready.  Her parents are still alive and live 10 minutes away. I’m still probably 5+ years away from pulling the trigger, hence the comment about the housing market. 

[MissingInAction 25554]

8 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

bop someone on the nose 

I'm throwing a coke on someone.

As far as my Canada plan the property/farm owners just have to file that they are hiring me to work the farm, or something along those lines.

The gubment will even subsidize my travel and moving expenses because it's in bum fuck nova scotia and they need people to move there.

I'm only pulling the trigger if it goes full handmaids tale here.

Edited May 26, 2022 by MissingInAction

[Fudge Nuggets 19453]

10 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I mean, Russia is currently headed by a murderous dictator and in the midst of waging a fully unjust war on it's neighbor.  But ok.

The US is very toxic right now, especially compared to the 1980's-early 00's, but this is a ridiculous statement.

Cool, you named ONE country in the world.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

10 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I mean, Russia is currently headed by a murderous dictator and in the midst of waging a fully unjust war on it's neighbor.  But ok.

The US is very toxic right now, especially compared to the 1980's-early 00's, but this is a ridiculous statement.

well, i mean the fact you bring up russia as the measuring stick is...not good. maybe it would be fairer to say that the US, the birthplace of democracy, might be the most broken democracy on earth? i mean, we just witnessed a sitting US president try to overturn a free and fair election and half the country actually supported the coup.

[MissingInAction 25554]

1 minute ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Cool, you named ONE country in the world.

Myanmar and North Korea are pretty fucked, so I hear.

[SydneyCarton 49477]

32 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

Should have added, my son graduates UT next year and is already planning doing his grad work overseas, preferably Japan. His roommate is doing his grad work in Germany, neither is planning on coming back. 

I've been to Japan, it's amazing, and I could easily live there. I had a buddy of mine who wasn't looking to travel took a job in Japan. He loved it, and would move back, but it has set off a whole pattern of him moving his family all over Europe and Asia. I don't think they'll ever come back now. 

Your son is going to fucking love Japan. 

[Js1 87175]

3 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

well, i mean the fact you bring up russia as the measuring stick is...not good. maybe it would be fairer to say that the US, the birthplace of democracy, might be the most broken democracy on earth? i mean, we just witnessed a sitting US president try to overturn a free and fair election and half the country actually supported the coup.

USA: marginally better than Russia! 

Put it only the wall! 

[Snake Diggity 4714]

I’m still clinging to optimism. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19453]

7 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I've been to Japan, it's amazing, and I could easily live there. I had a buddy of mine who wasn't looking to travel took a job in Japan. He loved it, and would move back, but it has set off a whole pattern of him moving his family all over Europe and Asia. I don't think they'll ever come back now. 

Your son is going to fucking love Japan. 

Living overseas isn't for everyone, but for anyone trying it out you'll probably know within a week if it's something you like or not.

I think I was off the plane a whole two hours before I said to myself "Why the fuck didn't I do this years ago?"  When I would come back here for a visit I was ready to bolt within a week to ten days max.

[Al_4_ISU 12623]

14 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

well, i mean the fact you bring up russia as the measuring stick is...not good. maybe it would be fairer to say that the US, the birthplace of democracy, might be the most broken democracy on earth? i mean, we just witnessed a sitting US president try to overturn a free and fair election and half the country actually supported the coup.

That I wouldn't argue with.  Unfortunately it seems our recent anti-democratic streak is affecting the rest of the world too.

I'm not saying the US isn't a mess right now.  I'm saying it's wildly inaccurate and hyperbolic to call it the worst place to live on the planet.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

2 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

I'm saying it's wildly inaccurate and hyperbolic to call it the worst place to live on the planet.

then you'll be relieved to discover i didn't say that. take a lap, Al.

[Biff Tannen 46155]

2 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

That I wouldn't argue with.  Unfortunately it seems our recent anti-democratic streak is affecting the rest of the world too.

I'm not saying the US isn't a mess right now.  I'm saying it's wildly inaccurate and hyperbolic to call it the worst place to live on the planet.

I don't think he said that.  He said it was one of the most toxic places.  When you've got 40%+ of the population believing in an alternate reality and wanting to inflict pain and suffering on the other 60%?  Yeah, that seems fairly accurate.

[Fudge Nuggets 19453]

19 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

Myanmar and North Korea are pretty fucked, so I hear.

We're better than Russia, N Korea, Myanmar and I'll go ahead and add Venezuela.

Go us!!!

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

7 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Living overseas isn't for everyone, but for anyone trying it out you'll probably know within a week if it's something you like or not.

I think I was off the plane a whole two hours before I said to myself "Why the fuck didn't I do this years ago?"  When I would come back here for a visit I was ready to bolt within a week to ten days max.

that's one of the weird things for me...when we go back to the states, i can't wait to leave.

[South Austin 53220]

I'm most likely staying put in the Austin area.  I'm not leaving while my parents, who live in Georgetown, are both alive.  And my village is here.  As long as they're here, I can't imagine leaving them for some other locale in my older years where I don't know anyone. 

So if I'm here, what do I do?  Not to sound defeatist, but hell if I know.  Giving money to Democratic political candidates with the hopes that it will make any lick of change is just pissing good money away.  If anyone has ideas beyond shaking my fists while posting on Surly and earning sweet internet rep, I'm all ears.

[SydneyCarton 49477]

4 minutes ago, South Austin said:

I'm most likely staying put in the Austin area.  I'm not leaving while my parents, who live in Georgetown, are both alive.  And my village is here.  As long as they're here, I can't imagine leaving them for some other locale in my older years where I don't know anyone. 

So if I'm here, what do I do?  Not to sound defeatist, but hell if I know.  Giving money to Democratic political candidates with the hopes that it will make any lick of change is just pissing good money away.  If anyone has ideas beyond shaking my fists while posting on Surly and earning sweet internet rep, I'm all ears.

How's your liver?

[SimonBolivar 11063]

[Neonmoon 38130]

The majority of countries in the world are complete shitshows. 

But in a list of stable functioning countries, the US wouldn't be at the top of the list because of that whole coup thing, and then all those other problems. (guns, healthcare, voter suppression, abortion, corporations are people, supreme court ignoring stare decisis, etc)

These are the top stable countries 

Luxembourg, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Germany, France, Ireland, England, New Zealand, Australia, Switzerland, Austria, Netherland, Canada, Iceland, Ireland, Portugal, Belgium

 

 

[South Austin 53220]

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

How's your liver?

I mean, is it really all that hard to get a transplant these days?

[ClubWhatever 12284]

15 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

That I wouldn't argue with.

Yet, it's not true.  If one is thinking in terms of a smallish group of well-developed countries in Europe and NA, then maybe it is true.  Globally it is certainly not.  Many of the democracies in South America and Asia are much worse than ours and have been trending worse, in terms of things like clean elections and civil liberties crackdowns.  Places like Brazil, Bolivia, India, Phillipines.  All worse off.

 

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13725]

100%. The US is not in a vacuum. IF/when the the US spirals down, so will the rest of the world. The best method is to ensure that you can take care of yourself and family, and then the impact of national/global changes is less.

And if the point of the thread is how you emotionally manage the downfall of the US, it doesn't matter where you live.

[SydneyCarton 49477]

9 minutes ago, South Austin said:

I mean, is it really all that hard to get a transplant these days?

I don't know, how long before your voting record is used to determine whether or not you can receive medical care?

[Pato del Muerto 53457]

3 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Folks eying Canada, you better be able to cut a big check. They require you to pay into their universal healthcare, I believe. Something like 400k per person on arrival. And it’s generally hard to get citizenship. 
 

Someone posted an article from one of the firms that specialize in this, that internet and demand in Golden Visas across the world has gone up by like 3000% since 2017 or so. It’s all rich people unsure about the future of America and wanting a way out. 
 

Australia’s golden visa is closed now, but before that it was 5 million. Portugals is still cheap like 500k. 

So what you are saying is that I will be forced to wait until conditions deteriorate so much that these countries will take me in as a political refugee.  Thanks, that’s valuable information. 
 

my wife is one generation removed from a free Irish visa, otherwise we might already be there.  Maybe they relax that a little to help some folks out. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Pato del Muerto

[SydneyCarton 49477]

1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

So what you are saying is that I will be forced to wait until conditions deteriorate so much that these countries will take me in as a political refugee.  Thanks, that’s valuable information. 

It's funny you mention that, as I've been wondering what the qualifications are to determine when it is acceptable to accept outsiders as political refugees, or any kind of refugee. Certainly if I have enough money and ask for political asylum in say, Scotland, they'd hear me out, right? Right?

[Brandywine 1330]

15 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

The majority of countries in the world are complete shitshows. 

But in a list of stable functioning countries, the US wouldn't be at the top of the list because of that whole coup thing, and then all those other problems. (guns, healthcare, voter suppression, abortion, corporations are people, supreme court ignoring stare decisis, etc)

These are the top stable countries 

Luxembourg, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Germany, France, Ireland, England, New Zealand, Australia, Switzerland, Austria, Netherland, Canada, Iceland, Ireland, Portugal, Belgium

 

 

I wouldn't mind living in Ireland. Beautiful country.