The American Death Spiral and Your Plan

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

12 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

Yet, it's not true.  If one is thinking in terms of a smallish group of well-developed countries in Europe and NA, then maybe it is true.  Globally it is certainly not.  Many of the democracies in South America and Asia are much worse than ours and have been trending worse, in terms of things like clean elections and civil liberties crackdowns.  Places like Brazil, Bolivia, India, Phillipines.  All worse off.

 

 

yeesh. not sure the US's presence on that chart is the best 'see, it's not so bad' proof 

[Exposition 93]

I lived abroad from 2014 - 2021 out in APAC. Now that I'm back it's doubtful I'll leave again, I'm single with no kids so there's nothing really forcing me to stay, except every country has its own problems and the grass is always greener.... The US absolutely has a lot of problems, many of which are amplified by the global reach of our media. But once the honeymoon phase wears off abroad you'll realize it's not just Americans who have to deal with idiots in power. And without citizenship in your new home you'll realize it's not quite as rose-colored as you first experienced. 

For me I'll stick around the US, but I'm leaving Texas as soon as practical. 

 

[MissingInAction 25554]

As far as leaving Texas, when do the big Corp pull their HQs because non of the top talent wants to live in South Gideon?

Guess they keep hq here for tax purposes and let everyone work remotely from the beaches earning 20%.

Edited May 26, 2022 by MissingInAction

[CooterBrown 18287]

As far as leaving Texas, when do the big Corp pull their HQs because non of the top talent wants to live in South Gideon?
Guess they keep hq here for tax purposes and let everyone work remotely from the beaches earning 20%.

They can always incorporate in Delaware for low tax advantages. The major reason companies move here is because it’s where the workforce is. If that ceases to be the case, then they’ll just move on to where the hiring pool is and wants to be.

[SydneyCarton 49477]

22 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

As far as leaving Texas, when do the big Corp pull their HQs because non of the top talent wants to live in South Gideon?

Guess they keep hq here for tax purposes and let everyone work remotely from the beaches earning 20%.

There is going to be a legitimate brain drain from the US at some point in the next 10 years. Young people don't have the same sacred cow concept of the United States that Boomers and Gen Xers had, imo. Which isn't surprising because most of them were raised by shitty boomers who had already gotten old and entered their "Fuck everyone, get mine" stage of their lives. Except I don't blame the younger people. They watched a segment of this country loot and pillage for their own benefit all their lives, and in lots of aspects were raised by the same absentee assfucks. What else do they know other than to leverage power?
 

Folks think things are bad NOW in the workforce, with Millennials and Gen Z folks spitting the bit and telling companies to pound sand for any number of reasons, with literally almost every field not being able to hire the number of employees they want, just wait if things continue down a path and these people realize they have better options in other countries if they're truly miserable here. The screeching from the last boomers and corporate america will be audible from Mars, where Elon Musk will have an outpost from where he continues to bash American work ethic and laud chinese slave labor. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by SydneyCarton

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

19 minutes ago, Exposition said:

I lived abroad from 2014 - 2021 out in APAC. Now that I'm back it's doubtful I'll leave again, I'm single with no kids so there's nothing really forcing me to stay, except every country has its own problems and the grass is always greener.... The US absolutely has a lot of problems, many of which are amplified by the global reach of our media. But once the honeymoon phase wears off abroad you'll realize it's not just Americans who have to deal with idiots in power. And without citizenship in your new home you'll realize it's not quite as rose-colored as you first experienced. 

For me I'll stick around the US, but I'm leaving Texas as soon as practical. 

 

you may be right. heck, i hope you're right and that we decide America is the best place for our family. right now it doesn't feel that way. the things we don't like about it seem to be getting worse, not better.

[Queen Bitch 1692]

Never leave California.

[SydneyCarton 49477]

5 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

you may be right. heck, i hope you're right and that we decide America is the best place for our family. right now it doesn't feel that way. the things we don't like about it seem to be getting worse, not better.

A buddy I referenced earlier who went to work in Japan with his wife...she said she was never coming back to America while Trump was president. I thought that seemed drastic at the time (2016). Now I just view her as prescient. And by all accounts, they love their lifestyle in various countries and are never coming back here. They've done Japan, Malaysia, and now the UK. They've had a baby girl who's now like 6 or 7, and they never want to return.

That being said, for years I think they thought my text messages about things here were hyperbolic, then the last time they came to visit their parents they were floored by how different America was than when they left around 2012 or 2014. "You can't even have a conversation with anybody if they don't agree with you. And you can't get out of conversations with people if they don't agree with you." They were...taken aback. I think the viewpoint of folks who lived here, left, and return is quite telling compared to those who've just seen the slow decline in real time. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13725]

17 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

As far as leaving Texas, when do the big Corp pull their HQs because non of the top talent wants to live in South Gideon?

Guess they keep hq here for tax purposes and let everyone work remotely from the beaches earning 20%.

 

6 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

There is going to be a legitimate brain drain from the US at some point in the next 10 years. Young people don't have the same sacred cow concept of the United States that Boomers and Gen Xers had, imo. Which isn't surprising because most of them were raised by shitty boomers who had already gotten old and entered there "Fuck everyone, get mine" stage of their lives. Except I don't blame the younger people. They watched a segment of this country loot and pillage for their own benefit all their lives, and in lots of aspects were raised by the same absentee assfucks. What else do they know other than to leverage power?
 

Folks think things are bad NOW in the workforce, with Millennials and Gen Z folks spitting the bit and telling companies to pound sand for any number of reasons, with literally almost every field not being able to hire the number of employees they want, just wait if things continue down a path and these people realize they have better options in other countries if they're truly miserable here. The screeching from the last boomers and corporate america will be audible from Mars, where Elon Musk will have an outpost from where he continues to bash American work ethic and laud chinese slave labor. 

Texas is failing to educate our youth. At least in relative terms from the past. This will eventually bite Texas in the ass when corps start to complain they can't hire. Or as stated, they will hire remote, non-Texans. Which does nothing for texas. 

Personally I'm cool with higher taxes if the money would go to net positive spending in education. By that I don't mean higher taxes for me, and education spending stays the same. I don't have kids but I'm willing to spend it as education is the best investment.

[Brisketexan 106876]

12 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Nah, I am good.  Bolsanaro won't last.  People fucking hate him.  I lived there,  My wife and kids are Brazilian.  I just want to sit on the porch in a small town in southern Brazil and wait for death.

So far, one of the best plans I've seen on this thread.

4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

 

Someone posted an article from one of the firms that specialize in this, that internet and demand in Golden Visas across the world has gone up by like 3000% since 2017 or so. It’s all rich people unsure about the future of America and wanting a way out. 

We are definitely looking into golden visa options -- Portugal still seems like the leading candidate.

1 hour ago, South Austin said:

I'm most likely staying put in the Austin area.  I'm not leaving while my parents, who live in Georgetown, are both alive.  And my village is here.  As long as they're here, I can't imagine leaving them for some other locale in my older years where I don't know anyone. 

So if I'm here, what do I do?  Not to sound defeatist, but hell if I know.  Giving money to Democratic political candidates with the hopes that it will make any lick of change is just pissing good money away.  If anyone has ideas beyond shaking my fists while posting on Surly and earning sweet internet rep, I'm all ears.

But....also this, for a good number of additional years.  This is where I've built my profession and life.  If I want to GTFO, having money will help, and here in Texas is where I can make my money.  So, head down, earn as much as I can while also supporting candidates the best I can (pointless, I know, but I'm a big fan of futile gestures of defiance) until the day comes to GTFO.

12 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

There is going to be a legitimate brain drain from the US at some point in the next 10 years. Young people don't have the same sacred cow concept of the United States that Boomers and Gen Xers had, imo. Which isn't surprising because most of them were raised by shitty boomers who had already gotten old and entered there "Fuck everyone, get mine" stage of their lives. Except I don't blame the younger people. They watched a segment of this country loot and pillage for their own benefit all their lives, and in lots of aspects were raised by the same absentee assfucks. What else do they know other than to leverage power?
 

Folks think things are bad NOW in the workforce, with Millennials and Gen Z folks spitting the bit and telling companies to pound sand for any number of reasons, with literally almost every field not being able to hire the number of employees they want, just wait if things continue down a path and these people realize they have better options in other countries if they're truly miserable here. The screeching from the last boomers and corporate america will be audible from Mars, where Elon Musk will have an outpost from where he continues to bash American work ethic and laud chinese slave labor. 

It's already happening.  My kids are exactly the kind of folks you'd want to come back to Texas and contribute their skills.  Not gonna happen.  Shit, the chances of them coming back to this country at all are getting lower by the day.  Which is actually part of our exit plan -- in 10-15 years, hopefully they'll be established enough somewhere else that they can sponsor us or somesuch.  We probably oughta live our golden years near our kids anyway.

[staboner 5084]

41 minutes ago, Exposition said:

I lived abroad from 2014 - 2021 out in APAC. Now that I'm back it's doubtful I'll leave again, I'm single with no kids so there's nothing really forcing me to stay, except every country has its own problems and the grass is always greener.... The US absolutely has a lot of problems, many of which are amplified by the global reach of our media. But once the honeymoon phase wears off abroad you'll realize it's not just Americans who have to deal with idiots in power. And without citizenship in your new home you'll realize it's not quite as rose-colored as you first experienced. 

For me I'll stick around the US, but I'm leaving Texas as soon as practical. 

 

i live abroad now. and plenty of issues there (to the points you raise here). 

No problems are being solved in America. Therein lies the true problem. Plenty of people can complain about whatever issue they deem "too much" that they want to move. Its been happening "on both sides" for decades. But if you are really paying attention you see one thing working in America - the stock market and all the feeders of that trough. 

Thats it. Thats what works. Everything else is a noisy struggle. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13725]

The American dream is quickly becoming the gene pool lottery of having wealthy parents who leave their money to you. Treat them well, and you might be ok financially in your 50s and beyond.

The option of building your own wealth is becoming more and more limited. Not impossible. And it will never be zero but it will be closed off to the person of average (or slightly above) intelligence and ambition.

[SydneyCarton 49477]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

So far, one of the best plans I've seen on this thread.

We are definitely looking into golden visa options -- Portugal still seems like the leading candidate.

But....also this, for a good number of additional years.  This is where I've built my profession and life.  If I want to GTFO, having money will help, and here in Texas is where I can make my money.  So, head down, earn as much as I can while also supporting candidates the best I can (pointless, I know, but I'm a big fan of futile gestures of defiance) until the day comes to GTFO.

It's already happening.  My kids are exactly the kind of folks you'd want to come back to Texas and contribute their skills.  Not gonna happen.  Shit, the chances of them coming back to this country at all are getting lower by the day.  Which is actually part of our exit plan -- in 10-15 years, hopefully they'll be established enough somewhere else that they can sponsor us or somesuch.  We probably oughta live our golden years near our kids anyway.

Get in fast. Portugal is swamped with applications. But their 500k investment for a commercial property does seem like a good deal. I can go fail at running a hotel for awhile.

[kevwun 16437]

Is that 500k for a couple or per person?

[Pato del Muerto 53459]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Portugal still seems like the leading candidate.

Wife mentioned Portugal to me today because someone texted her about it being the place to go. Sounds good to me.  My 500 word Spanish vocabulary might even help me pick up Portuguese a little quicker.  

[Brisketexan 106876]

3 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Get in fast. Portugal is swamped with applications. But their 500k investment for a commercial property does seem like a good deal. I can go fail at running a hotel for awhile.

Sigh.  Probably won't make the timing cut for Portugal, if it gets that swamped.

May be hinging our hopes on one of the kids ending up someplace that's hospitable enough to parents getting some sort of residency visa, if you can show sufficient financial resources to support yourself or whatnot.  I'd be fine living on a green card equivalent in Scotland, or Germany, etc.

Secondary plan is to become "cooler climate, blue state" refugees.  We'll see what that landscape looks like in 10-15 years.

[Foosters 18269]

4 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Get in fast. Portugal is swamped with applications. But their 500k investment for a commercial property does seem like a good deal. I can go fail at running a hotel for awhile.

let me know when you're hiring

[Sbbruin 22142]

2 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Wife mentioned Portugal to me today because someone texted her about it being the place to go. Sounds good to me.  My 500 word Spanish vocabulary might even help me pick up Portuguese a little quicker.  

 

[SydneyCarton 49477]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sigh.  Probably won't make the timing cut for Portugal, if it gets that swamped.

May be hinging our hopes on one of the kids ending up someplace that's hospitable enough to parents getting some sort of residency visa, if you can show sufficient financial resources to support yourself or whatnot.  I'd be fine living on a green card equivalent in Scotland, or Germany, etc.

Secondary plan is to become "cooler climate, blue state" refugees.  We'll see what that landscape looks like in 10-15 years.

I like Scotland. The foreign taxes on owning property in the UK are a bitch, however. Like 8 or 10% a year. 

 

[MoJames 8258]

I moved to Colorado 10 years ago. Never moving again. Fin.

[Brisketexan 106876]

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

I like Scotland. The foreign taxes on owning property in the UK are a bitch, however. Like 8 or 10% a year. 

 

I'll rent.  I ain't that picky.  Can I see my kids and grandkids with some regularity?  Can I take walks with my wife?  Can I take walks WITHOUT my wife up to the pub, to share a pint and bullshit with my new friends who are hard to understand sober and even harder to understand drunk?  Can I procure flour and lard to make my own fresh tortillas?  If so, then I'm good.

[South Austin 53220]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Can I procure flour and lard to make my own fresh tortillas?

And don't forget -- if you've got flour and fat, you've got roux.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13725]

Southern Portugal is supposed have a high percentage of English speakers.

[Dbeasy 15580]

I find this thread strange because so many people are thinking about just giving up and leaving.

We have a country full of morons. All we need to do is get the moderate non-morons to band together and take over the country, out of the hands of the extremists. Then implement common sense legislation. It’s doable if people cared enough to do anything. 

[South Austin 53220]

2 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

All we need to do is get the moderate non-morons to band together and take over the country, out of the hands of the extremists. Then implement common sense legislation.

Who's going to do that?  You?!?  You, Lieutenant Weinberg?!?

[Pato del Muerto 53459]

6 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I find this thread strange because so many people are thinking about just giving up and leaving.

We have a country full of morons. All we need to do is get the moderate non-morons to band together and take over the country, out of the hands of the extremists. Then implement common sense legislation. It’s doable if people cared enough to do anything. 

Then why hasn’t it been done already?  There’s too many morons.  Strategic withdrawal when you know you’ve been overrun is sometimes the best move. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Pato del Muerto

[Js1 87175]

8 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Southern Portugal is supposed have a high percentage of English speakers.

We didn't encounter a single soul in Portugal 6 years ago who didn't speak English.  Our AirBnB host who picked us up from the airport said they all learn it as a second language in school. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

7 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

It’s doable. 

I wish I shared that belief.

[The Ace of Aces 5377]

I left Texas more than a decade ago and watching its crumble has been startling. 

But we own 70+ acres and a cabin in Canada so I’m good. And I can get German citizenship if Canada goes to hell (ie kf Manitoba MAGAers take over Ottawa)

[Js1 87175]

12 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I find this thread strange because so many people are thinking about just giving up and leaving.

We have a country full of morons. All we need to do is get the moderate non-morons to band together and take over the country, out of the hands of the extremists. Then implement common sense legislation. It’s doable if people cared enough to do anything. 

There's 239 million eligible voters in this country. 159 million bothered to show up (66.9% of voting-eligible population)

How do you convince the other 80 million people to show up and be part of the process?   Texas sure as hell is doing everything it can to ensure those 5 million or so non-voters don't vote or can't vote. 

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Js1

[Brisketexan 106876]

17 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I find this thread strange because so many people are thinking about just giving up and leaving.

We have a country full of morons. All we need to do is get the moderate non-morons to band together and take over the country, out of the hands of the extremists. Then implement common sense legislation. It’s doable if people cared enough to do anything. 

 

11 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Then why hasn’t it been done already?  There’s too many morons.  Strategic withdrawal when you know you’ve been overrun is sometimes the best move. 

This.  They've won.  It's over.  Just like WWII was over for the Germans once the allies established a beachhead in France.  Sure, there will still be some fighting left to be done, but the outcome has been decided, we're just marching towards it.

Doesn't mean I'm not still going to fight with everything I have, because this is MY state, and MY country, and I won't give it up without a fight.  But I'm also smart enough to know when I've been beat.

[Dbeasy 15580]

I believe we are one very charismatic leader away from starting a movement to get the country course-corrected.

[Brisketexan 106876]

5 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I believe we are one very charismatic leader away from starting a movement to get the country course-corrected.

This is our concern, dude.

[Pato del Muerto 53459]

32 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Southern Portugal is supposed have a high percentage of English speakers.

¡Qué bueno!

49 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Get in fast. Portugal is swamped with applications. But their 500k investment for a commercial property does seem like a good deal. I can go fail at running a hotel for awhile.

Qué lastima. 

[CooterBrown 18287]

Southern Portugal is supposed have a high percentage of English speakers.

Valencia Spain is all Brits and Americans.

I have some acquaintances that moved to Portugal at the beginning of COVID and each day it’s less likely they’ll come back. The husband’s parents are from Portugal so he had a passport. Retiring at 38 with about $25M didn’t hurt either. Their monthly living expenses are completely covered by the rent on their Rosedale house. It’s surprisingly inexpensive there for the day to day stuff and how much little stuff you need. Their day is basically get the kids to school, go have brunch and wine at a cafe, mill around Lisbon, and then pick the kids up, have dinner with friends. Rinse and repeat.

[Fudge Nuggets 19453]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

These are the top stable whitey countries

Luxembourg, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Germany, France, Ireland, England, New Zealand, Australia, Switzerland, Austria, Netherland, Canada, Iceland, Ireland, Portugal, Belgium

Seems a bit uhhhh biased.

Japan, Singapore, South Korea, Malaysia, Uruguay, Panama, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Vietnam, etc. etc. etc. are plenty stable.

[Neonmoon 38130]

6 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Seems a bit uhhhh biased.

Japan, Singapore, South Korea, Malaysia, Uruguay, Panama, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Vietnam, etc. etc. etc. are plenty stable.

I copied it from the internet. 

That being said, I would love to live in Japan. Anywhere in Central America or South America is a hard pass in my book (for permanent relocation)

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

I copied it from the internet. 
That being said, I would love to live in Japan. Anywhere in Central America or South America is a hard pass in my book (for permanent relocation)

Why a hard pass? Just curious.

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

78746 the singular truth

[Neonmoon 38130]

12 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Why a hard pass? Just curious.

Too hot or too crimey

[Fudge Nuggets 19453]

I would 100% for damn sure move to central or South America before the UK.  Their citizenry is almost as fucked up as ours plus they have shitty weather on top of it.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

9 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Too hot or too crimey

where do you live now?

[Fudge Nuggets 19453]

1 hour ago, staboner said:

you see one thing working in America - the stock market and all the feeders of that trough. 

Thats it. Thats what works. Everything else is a noisy struggle. 

Cool thing is you don’t have to live here to benefit from / get raped by the stock market.  You can do that from anywhere.

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

50 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Valencia Spain is all Brits and Americans.

I have some acquaintances that moved to Portugal at the beginning of COVID and each day it’s less likely they’ll come back. The husband’s parents are from Portugal so he had a passport. Retiring at 38 with about $25M didn’t hurt either. Their monthly living expenses are completely covered by the rent on their Rosedale house. It’s surprisingly inexpensive there for the day to day stuff and how much little stuff you need. Their day is basically get the kids to school, go have brunch and wine at a cafe, mill around Lisbon, and then pick the kids up, have dinner with friends. Rinse and repeat.

how did he accumulate $25m by age 38?

Edited May 26, 2022 by Make em eat Taco Bell

[TexArcher 39054]

14 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Nah, I am good.  Bolsanaro won't last.  People fucking hate him.  I lived there,  My wife and kids are Brazilian.  I just want to sit on the porch in a small town in southern Brazil and wait for death.

Argentina's the leader for me so far.

I'm not married to the idea of Argentina, but I am married to the idea of not-America.  Within 10 years.

[Fudge Nuggets 19453]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I'll rent.  I ain't that picky.  Can I see my kids and grandkids with some regularity?  Can I take walks with my wife?  Can I take walks WITHOUT my wife up to the pub, to share a pint and bullshit with my new friends who are hard to understand sober and even harder to understand drunk?  Can I procure flour and lard to make my own fresh tortillas?  If so, then I'm good.

Scots are easier to understand pissed more than when sober. 

[SaucyJack 3519]

Spinal Tap sequel

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Probably something like this:

 

overlooking this:

 

handful of Churrascarias and pizzerias in town. I’ll be alright.  

[ClubWhatever 12284]

1 hour ago, CooterBrown said:

heir day is basically get the kids to school, go have brunch and wine at a cafe, mill around Lisbon, and then pick the kids up, have dinner with friends. Rinse and repeat.

At least when he's on his death bed he won't think, "I should have had brunch and wine at a cafe, milled around Lisbon, and then picked the kids up, had dinner with friends more"

[CooterBrown 18287]

how did he accumulate $25m by age 38?

He was a cofounder of a pretty successful tech company that was bought out by another tech company. He stayed on as CTO for a couple of years but cashed out and GTFO.