The Boat Fanatic Thread

[fattyflattie 4,640]

51 minutes ago, Lat22 said:

I just call Marcus at Powertech, tell him exactly what I have and what I want it to do, and he sends me the right prop.

I’ve run a few of them.  PT is a great prop, but can’t compete with Merc props on the top end.  Believe me I wanted them to because they are heavy and about $350 cheaper than the comparable Merc. After years and lots of money I’ve finally got it nailed down to my “everyday” prop, and a “winter/tournament” prop.    I could find something from PT for the everyday for sure, but I pitched them out on what they recommended and was about 3 mph slower than the B1.   They do weigh something like 2.5# more, and are hella thick. I was very surprised they got that close on top end to be honest.  Current “everyday/offshore/summer prop is 26” B1.  Winter prop is 28” B1 with barrel cut down to B1FS length.    Also run a 29” B1XS but the thin blades just don’t last, even with no shallow hole shots.  They just don’t last but 50 hours or so, if that. 

[Landomatic 3,813]

Probably a dumb question, but what does this quote mean?  Seen it a few times in various boating forums.

Quote

I want a boat that drinks 6, eats 4, and sleeps 2.

 

[Landomatic 3,813]

On 2/6/2021 at 9:19 AM, troph said:

@Landomatic wasn’t yesterday the big day? After sexy time with your lady you were supposed to post pics..., of the boat.  So where are they...?!?

 

On 2/6/2021 at 9:24 AM, Landomatic said:

Haha no.  It leaves Michigan this coming Monday and is supposed to be here Wednesday the 10th.  It's wrapped and winterized plus it's supposed to get down to like 20 degrees here next week, so no telling when I'll actually be able to get on it.

Delayed.  She's currently sitting in the parking lot in the Michigan marina covered in 2 feet of snow.

[troph 25,095]

25 minutes ago, Landomatic said:

 

Delayed.  She's currently sitting in the parking lot in the Michigan marina covered in 2 feet of snow.

Booo!  

[blacklab 12,049]

So it's supposed to get down to 12 with a high of 30 next Monday here in Austin.

Anyone winterizing their boat this weekend?

[Cajun 11,771]

No, but I'm heating the fuck outta my storage stall.

[HOOKEM4 5,152]

On 2/5/2021 at 3:17 PM, G650 said:

 

Best way to get a feel for sailing

 

And it's not even hyperbole. You will find yourself in the most miserable conditions wondering what on earth you were thinking getting into this sport, but never be able to not do it.

I remember sailing opti's on Ontario one year when the lake "turned over." Holy fuck it was miserable. Full dry gear and it was the coldest I have ever been. I can't believe they let a bunch of kids out there in those conditions. 

[utee94 16,069]

3 hours ago, blacklab said:

So it's supposed to get down to 12 with a high of 30 next Monday here in Austin.

Anyone winterizing their boat this weekend?

Yeah I used mine last weekend and had it at the house, so I just now pulled the plugs and drained the water off the block, then drained the water off the manifold, and then put her back in storage.

 

 

[troph 25,095]

5 hours ago, Landomatic said:

Probably a dumb question, but what does this quote mean?  Seen it a few times in various boating forums.

 

That’s your boat. 6 could have a good time for a few hours, 4 could stay the whole day, 2 leave when it’s time to have sexy time or sleep. 

[Landomatic 3,813]

13 minutes ago, troph said:

That’s your boat. 6 could have a good time for a few hours, 4 could stay the whole day, 2 leave when it’s time to have sexy time or sleep. 

I'm changing mine to...

Quote

I want a boat that drinks 6, eats 4, fucks 3, and sleeps 2.

 

[troph 25,095]

I'm sure they would let you watch.

[Landomatic 3,813]

1 hour ago, troph said:

I'm sure they would let you watch.

I would hope so.  Hell I thought that was the whole reason for buying a boat

[Pescado_Rojo 19,559]

2 hours ago, troph said:

I'm sure they would let you watch.

[CHIEF 5,201]

Chief Jr. is on the water for the day tomorrow. Fuck. Nothing like waiting till the last minute to have your boat winterized. Those bastards better pay through the nose. Not supposed to get above freezing Saturday through Tuesday.

CHIEF

[Landomatic 3,813]

19 hours ago, CHIEF said:

Chief Jr. is on the water for the day tomorrow. Fuck. Nothing like waiting till the last minute to have your boat winterized. Those bastards better pay through the nose. Not supposed to get above freezing Saturday through Tuesday.

CHIEF

I’m not following?  You hope who pays through the nose to winterize your boat at the last minute?

[CHIEF 5,201]

8 minutes ago, Landomatic said:

I’m not following?  You hope who pays through the nose to winterize your boat at the last minute?

My son is the lead mechanic for a boat repair company. They have a bunch of cheap fuckers that they call the "gamblers" they take the gamble, each year that we won't have enough cold weather, or it won't be cold enough long enough to have to winterize their boat. Then, with block cracking cold weather rolling in, they call a day or two before, want you to drop everything you are doing, and come winterize their boat. My son's company is set up to do that on the water, with their service boat. They had over 20 calls come in the night before last, which meant he had to be on the water most of yesterday, winterizing boats. I would have added a $100 extra dumbfuck fee to each bill. It was windy and dangerous, he should have been in the shop all day.

CHIEF

[Landomatic 3,813]

2 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

My son is the lead mechanic for a boat repair company. They have a bunch of cheap fuckers that they call the "gamblers" they take the gamble, each year that we won't have enough cold weather, or it won't be cold enough long enough to have to winterize their boat. Then, with block cracking cold weather rolling in, they call a day or two before, want you to drop everything you are doing, and come winterize their boat. My son's company is set up to do that on the water, with their service boat. They had over 20 calls come in the night before last, which meant he had to be on the water most of yesterday, winterizing boats. I would have added a $100 extra dumbfuck fee to each bill. It was windy and dangerous, he should have been in the shop all day.

CHIEF

Ah gotcha.  Didn’t know he was a mechanic...makes a ton more sense now.  Yeah they should definitely charge a premium.  I would see nothing wrong with having part of all boat mechanic’s pricing be an added fee for jobs done within 48 hours.  Or charging a rush fee in times like these.

[Cajun 11,771]

Got my MC in a covered storage with heat, but forgot (until this morning) that my Nautique was at Sail & Ski on 183 getting repaired/serviced.  I called in a cold sweat at about 4:50pm today hoping that I'd get someone who could tell me whether or not they freeze protected it.  

I got the head cheese mechanic on the line and said, "Uh, I know this is a really dumb question, but that Nautique you guys are working on, it's not winterized..."

Dude kinda chuckled, and said, "First off, it's a VERY good question and second, relax, it's taken care of.  You can sleep well tonight."

Gotdamn, talk about a blood pressure spike.

[CHIEF 5,201]

21 minutes ago, Landomatic said:

Ah gotcha.  Didn’t know he was a mechanic...makes a ton more sense now.  Yeah they should definitely charge a premium.  I would see nothing wrong with having part of all boat mechanic’s pricing be an added fee for jobs done within 48 hours.  Or charging a rush fee in times like these.

Yep, and I think it should go all to the mechanic. He did all of his classes by Zoom yesterday just to help these people out. Got on the the water at sunup and off at sundown, 10 hours. 

One of the funniest stories he has, was of a very prominent realtor here, that called his boss/company owner on July 4th, several years ago on July 4th, with the engine overheating, the only thing it could have been, is of course, a water pump, or a thermostat. Chris had company over and was grilling (typical 4th of July shit), and this realtor says she will pay "anything" to have the boat fixed in the next three hours. He told her there would be an "it's a fucking holiday fee of $1000, and an "I have company" fee of $1000, an "I don't really want to do it" fee of $1000, and a "you slow paid me fee" of $1000, so $4000 to change out a water pump or thermostat, she said she would have the cash sitting in the cup holder on the driver's seat.

We were already on the water, and Chris, his boss, calls CHIEF Jr., and asks him if he wants to make a quick $4000. Of course the answer was yes. We had a buddy that we had picked up about two miles from the shop, and we were about a half mile from that ramp, they go over get his truck, and get a water pump and a thermostat, come back, and we were headed her way. He used our little emergency marine toolbox, and had everything changed and put back together in about 10 minutes. For the time it took, he made about $3k per hour.

CHIEF

Edited February 12, 2021 by CHIEF
grammar

[Landomatic 3,813]

Leave it to me to get my boat on the coldest week in like 20 something years.  She made it safe and sound though.  Thank god for shrink wrap.  Think I'll wait until it warms up a little before unwrapping her...

IMG_1077.mov

Edited February 12, 2021 by Landomatic

[Cajun 11,771]

Just in time for higher fuel prices!

j/k

That appears to be floating Shaggin'Wagon.  Potentially, I'm sayin'.

[troph 25,095]

Nice lando! Excited for you! 

[conVINCEd 21,477]

59 minutes ago, Landomatic said:

Leave it to me to get my boat on the coldest week in like 20 something years.  She made it safe and sound though.  Thank god for shrink wrap.  Think I'll wait until it warms up a little before unwrapping her...

IMG_1077.mov 3.21 MB · 7 downloads

Dumb question from somewhat who has never owned a boat, but is trying to educate themself because that may be on the horizon.  Why is the trailer so long?  Looks to me like you could chop 7 or 8 feet off of that thing without posing any danger to the towing vehicle.

[troph 25,095]

Looking at a Sunseeker Manhattan 63 flybridge for an all day/sunset charter in Miami next month.  Pretty excited about it. 

need an offshore charter recommendation out of SFLA too - not looking to break the bank on that boat though. 
 

sad sailing lessons were cancelled this weekend. 😕

Edited February 12, 2021 by troph

[troph 25,095]

5 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Dumb question from somewhat who has never owned a boat, but is trying to educate themself because that may be on the horizon.  Why is the trailer so long?  Looks to me like you could chop 7 or 8 feet off of that thing without posing any danger to the towing vehicle.

Curious what you’re thinking you want ? 

[conVINCEd 21,477]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

Curious what you’re thinking you want ? 

Trying to make a move to Charleston happen.  If it does, and it is more likely than not at this point, I will want a boat.  Half fishing/half sunset cruises.  Center consoles seem to be the preferred type there, and I assume there is a reason for that, but I am basically a third grader when it comes to knowing shit about boats, which Is why I started reading this thread.

[HOOKEM4 5,152]

15 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Dumb question from somewhat who has never owned a boat, but is trying to educate themself because that may be on the horizon.  Why is the trailer so long?  Looks to me like you could chop 7 or 8 feet off of that thing without posing any danger to the towing vehicle.

Delivery. Universal trailer. Lando has the poors and couldn't take the length...of the trailer. Also saved another 300k not taking the length 🤣

[conVINCEd 21,477]

1 minute ago, HOOKEM4 said:

Delivery. Universal trailer. Lando has the poors and couldn't take the length...of the trailer. Also saved another 300k not taking the length 🤣

Makes sense.  Gracias.

[Landomatic 3,813]

28 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Dumb question from somewhat who has never owned a boat, but is trying to educate themself because that may be on the horizon.  Why is the trailer so long?  Looks to me like you could chop 7 or 8 feet off of that thing without posing any danger to the towing vehicle.

 

10 minutes ago, HOOKEM4 said:

Delivery. Universal trailer. Lando has the poors and couldn't take the length...of the trailer. Also saved another 300k not taking the length 🤣

That trailer in the pic is actually just what they moved it onto once the delivery truck got it here.  It’s just a place to store it until the weather gets better.

[Landomatic 3,813]

30 minutes ago, troph said:

Looking at a Sunseeker Manhattan 63 flybridge for an all day/sunset charter in Miami next month.  Pretty excited about it. 

need an offshore charter recommendation out of SFLA too - not looking to break the bank on that boat though. 
 

sad sailing lessons were cancelled this weekend. 😕

Had a really great 4 hour sunset yacht charter in Miami a few years back.  PM me if you want the info and I’ll shoot it over to you if I still have it.  We used to go to Miami 2-3 times a year and that was by far one of the coolest things we’ve done.

[HOOKEM4 5,152]

18 minutes ago, Landomatic said:

 

That trailer in the pic is actually just what they moved it onto once the delivery truck got it here.  It’s just a place to store it until the weather gets better.

Aka, if you have the coin for a big boy yacht, you don't need a trailer to deal with. You just get it moved. Unless you are G650 that travels all over with his rig and you need the trailer because it cradles your lady so well.

[CHIEF 5,201]

1 hour ago, conVINCEd said:

Dumb question from somewhat who has never owned a boat, but is trying to educate themself because that may be on the horizon.  Why is the trailer so long?  Looks to me like you could chop 7 or 8 feet off of that thing without posing any danger to the towing vehicle.

Yep, a delivery trailer. That one can handle anything from about 30 to almost 50 feet. I worked at Magnum Trailer for about a year and a half. We sold a shitload of them. It is a remarkable design. The bunks are set at about a 30 degree inward angle, and you just drive the boat into where it fits snug. Winch it up, and you are ready to go. I've thought about buying one for Lake Granbury. We have plenty of boats that were bought without a trailer. It would be easy to transport them to Lake Lewisville and Eagle Mountain after a sale. The bunks are just straight on that trailer, kinda interesting.

CHIEF 

Edited February 12, 2021 by CHIEF

[troph 25,095]

1 hour ago, HOOKEM4 said:

Delivery. Universal trailer. Lando has the poors and couldn't take the length...of the trailer. Also saved another 300k not taking the length 🤣

He has two boats he don’t have the poors he’s surly half a percent at least.

[Cajun 11,771]

Very unexciting, but I goofed around with the underwater LEDs and the drone the other night while anchored in the cove where the ramp I use sits.  

I was just cycling through some of the LED RC functions and wondered what it looked like from above.  This is what I got.  Got a buddy who's a big scuba guy and I'm dying to see what that shit looks like underwater.   Silent vid, so you'll just have to hum some Pink Floyd until I get this shit synched up with tunes  --

I had this vision of a bunch of Crappie and Bass below wearing shirts like this, ala Far Side...

Edited February 12, 2021 by Cajun

[CHIEF 5,201]

1 hour ago, Cajun said:

Very unexciting, but I goofed around with the underwater LEDs and the drone the other night while anchored in the cove where the ramp I use sits.  

I was just cycling through some of the LED RC functions and wondered what it looked like from above.  This is what I got.  Got a buddy who's a big scuba guy and I'm dying to see what that shit looks like underwater.   Silent vid, so you'll just have to hum some Pink Floyd until I get this shit synched up with tunes  --

I had this vision of a bunch of Crappie and Bass below wearing shirts like this, ala Far Side...

Hummed some "Us and Them" it definitely worked. Might want to add that-PSA

CHIEF

[Cajun 11,771]

@Chief - Stay tuned.  I've got plans with the boat/underwater LEDs/drone, and all this shit.

Once it warms back up, that is.  If I'm not arrested, should be interesting.  Hell, might be even if I am arrested.  I'll just tell the judge, "Cause I like to party!" --

 

[CHIEF 5,201]

6 minutes ago, Cajun said:

@Chief - Stay tuned.  I've got plans with the boat/underwater LEDs/drone, and all this shit.

Once it warms back up, that is.  If I'm not arrested, should be interesting.  Hell, might be even if I am arrested.  I'll just tell the judge, "Cause I like to party!" --

 

Fuck, where do you buy all the lasers? CHIEF Jr. has a 12 foot square screen and a projector, and some crazy ass surround sound that you can hear at the grocery store. That reminds me of going to the Momentary Lapse of Reason tour in 1987 at Reunion Arena. My friend, Clinton and I had big heavy jackets. I had a ski jacket, he had a trench coat, we would be shot today. We smuggled a case of beer in to the concert. As you can imagine, when we started chuggin' on the first one, all the cottonmouthed motherfuckers came out of the woodworks. We traded beers for so much coke, acid, pot, and Molly, fuck, we didn't have to go searching till we both swore off that shit, and grew up. We did all that shit in the middle of a 33,000 acre ranch, I remember pulling all the shit off my old Bronco one night, while trippin'. I drove that bitch home with both front fenders and the hood in the back. 

This probably needed to be on the Music board, buttfuck it.

CHIEF

[Cajun 11,771]

@CHIEFThe laser unit to the left on the screen I bought on Amazon and all the other stuff is from Guitar Center, I think.  The lasers are cheap, but those two spotlights on the floor set me back a bit.

I used to take the Nautique up to Commons Ford Park on Lake Austin, tie up and hang out all day, and then stay after the sun went down.  If the urge hit, I'd beam my two laser units up into the trees in the little creek next to the part and crank up Floyd as loud as I could.  The hilarious part was looking the opposite direction out into the park, where there were always stragglers - herbal Americans, you might say.   I would watch the blackness , like fireflies getting active all of the sudden, everyone out there would light up and watch the show.  

Even H20APD showed up once and hovered just a few feet away from my boat.  I didn't realize they were there right away and when I noticed them I immediately turned the music down thinking I was in trouble for the noise or sumsuch.  I said, "I am so sorry, I didn't realize how loud I was", which was a lie.  The law dog said, "No man, you're good.  We're just enjoying the show.  Turn it back up!"

The rest of the time out there  I just couldn't shake this image from my head -

Edited February 12, 2021 by Cajun

[Cajun 11,771]

Anyway, if I can pull something like what's in that video above out on the boat w/o getting arrested/blowing fuses/or sinking into the abyss, it ought to make for an interesting ariel view I'm thinking.

It's next on the agenda.

[HOOKEM4 5,152]

7 hours ago, troph said:

He has two boats he don’t have the poors he’s surly half a percent at least.

[G650 14,422]

9 hours ago, HOOKEM4 said:

Aka, if you have the coin for a big boy yacht, you don't need a trailer to deal with. You just get it moved. Unless you are G650 that travels all over with his rig and you need the trailer because it cradles your lady so well.

 

Actually went to a straight cradle this time, and can use a universal flatbed trailer to relocate as needed.

 

9 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

Trying to make a move to Charleston happen.  If it does, and it is more likely than not at this point, I will want a boat.  Half fishing/half sunset cruises.  Center consoles seem to be the preferred type there, and I assume there is a reason for that, but I am basically a third grader when it comes to knowing shit about boats, which Is why I started reading this thread.

If you go to Charleston let me know, I can hook you up with a guy who can help if need be. But if it's just a small CC, I'm sure you can sort that out pretty easily.

[Landomatic 3,813]

8 hours ago, troph said:

He has two boats he don’t have the poors he’s surly half a percent at least.

Two boats?  What the hell ever gave you that idea?  One boat.  Two boats would just put me in the surly half percent of dumb.

[Landomatic 3,813]

9 hours ago, HOOKEM4 said:

Aka, if you have the coin for a big boy yacht, you don't need a trailer to deal with. You just get it moved.

Well I don’t know if it makes me a poor or a half percent or what, but I told myself when I got a boat that I wasn’t ever fucking with putting it in and out of the water myself.

Had a buddy with a trailered boat who I boated with one whole summer in my 20s.  We had fun, but the trailering part was a beating.  Always thought the only way to do it was just to have it in a slip and walk right on whenever it came time to use it.

My last boat was a 28’ Regal cruiser (probably what @troph is thinking of) and they brought that one in and out of the water on a small trailer behind a pickup.  My understanding is this new boat is too big to do that with.  Either way, I have no plans to move it around anytime soon.

[troph 25,095]

You said second boat I was thinking at the same time kinda like two women at the same time. My bad. Lando is a serial monogamist when it comes to boats.  I’m not btw. Goal is one lake boat, sailing club for sailboat access and a salty girl down by the sea.  Fuck around and find out. 

[Landomatic 3,813]

26 minutes ago, G650 said:

If you go to Charleston let me know, I can hook you up with a guy who can help if need be. But if it's just a small CC, I'm sure you can sort that out pretty easily.

@conVINCEd you should take him up on this without even blinking an eye.  Even if you just get a small boat.  I almost got really burned on my first boat as a newb who thought I could go it alone...from a very reputable local dealer.  Luckily I was able to navigate my way out of it and save my ass, but the whole situation still really sucked.

I’m sure I posted that saga in this thread somewhere if you go back to around August or so.  Didn’t I?  What a shit show.

Round 2 (my latest boat) I hired a broker to help me out and it was the single-best decision I could have made.  Worth every penny and can’t imagine having tried to do it without him.  He knew I’d been burned once and worked to ensure it didn’t happen again.  Learned a ton along the way and he really kept me from making some dumb buying decisions.  Not to mention, he has handled all the details with negotiating, survey, paperwork, registration, delivery, etc.  I’ve been extremely grateful for him every day throughout the process!

Plus, his pay comes out of the seller’s end so I don’t really feel like it cost me that much.  As a co-broker on the deal, he just splits the 10% selling commission with the selling broker.  I might have been able to get that 5% knocked off the total had I done it all myself, but who knows, I think that’s doubtful.  And either way, still worth every penny.

That said, I know there are some shady brokers out there who still try to fuck you just like that reputable local dealer tried to fuck me.  But if @G650 has a trustworthy guy in Charleston, you should hire him.

[troph 25,095]

For @conVINCEd 

for watching sunsets while reeling in the fish. Could convert the cockpit to a table and chairs when you don’t want to fish.  
 

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/1999-cabo-31-express-7728585/

could go bigger for more or smaller for less.  Could focus on less fish and more sunset around the same price and size just different use and style.

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2000-sea-ray-38-sundancer-7571397/

I didn’t look to closely at these two boats but 30-40 feet Cabo express and Searay boats are generally decent boats. 
 

start dreaming dude that’s what this board is for...

Edited February 12, 2021 by troph

[troph 25,095]

Yeah we will use a broker on a sea boat for sure.  So much you can muck up even when you know or have learned it on paper.  Emotional tugs on boats that are really bad decisions can ruin more than hour pocketbook. 

[Landomatic 3,813]

12 minutes ago, troph said:

Yeah we will use a broker on a sea boat for sure.  So much you can muck up even when you know or have learned it on paper.  Emotional tugs on boats that are really bad decisions can ruin more than hour pocketbook. 

Yep this.  My broker literally stopped me from buying 2 different boats (for different reasons) that I had gotten impatient and emotional on and thought to myself, fuck it I don’t care if there might be issues I’ll just cross that bridge later because this is the boat I really want.  Patients is not my thing.

After multiple warnings from him on both, he eventually said, go ahead and buy it but I can’t help you when shit goes wrong and I won’t resell it for you when that time comes.  That was enough both times to wake me up and I walked away.  No doubt in my mind I would have bought both of those, and probably others with issues without his guidance.  So, what he stood in the way of me buying was probably more valuable than what he eventually did help me buy.

And yeah, he was able to pick up on red flags that I never would have caught.  Sometimes from just looking at the listing pics, but often times after he had talked to the seller.

And I especially wouldn’t touch anything saltwater without a broker.  Whole different animal from my understanding.

[conVINCEd 21,477]

1 hour ago, troph said:

For @conVINCEd 

for watching sunsets while reeling in the fish. Could convert the cockpit to a table and chairs when you don’t want to fish.  
 

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/1999-cabo-31-express-7728585/

could go bigger for more or smaller for less.  Could focus on less fish and more sunset around the same price and size just different use and style.

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2000-sea-ray-38-sundancer-7571397/

I didn’t look to closely at these two boats but 30-40 feet Cabo express and Searay boats are generally decent boats. 
 

start dreaming dude that’s what this board is for...

Those both seem like an awful lot of boat for someone whose boating experience consists of getting a ski boat back to the dock once in college when the owner’s kid passed out after an afternoon of drinking on LBJ.  I was thinking 25-27’ would probably be my sweet spot size wise.  Big enough to have some stability if things get a little ugly, but not so big that my amateur ass ruins the thing trying to dock it.  I would obviously have some sort of training class as well.  Thanks @G650, I will definitely take you up on that when the time comes.  Like a lot of things in life these days, COVID has disrupted the timeline a bit.

[G650 14,422]

12 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Those both seem like an awful lot of boat for someone whose boating experience consists of getting a ski boat back to the dock once in college when the owner’s kid passed out after an afternoon of drinking on LBJ.  I was thinking 25-27’ would probably be my sweet spot size wise.  Big enough to have some stability if things get a little ugly, but not so big that my amateur ass ruins the thing trying to dock it.  I would obviously have some sort of training class as well.  Thanks @G650, I will definitely take you up on that when the time comes.  Like a lot of things in life these days, COVID has disrupted the timeline a bit.

Happy to help anyway I can.

 

I think you are on the right track. Maybe look at a 23' CC. Super versatile. I used to have a 23' Seacraft for years. 25-27 totally fine too, but not much difference in usability and a bit more money. You really need to go to a 32' CC to get something more substantial, but it becomes way more to deal with in a hurry.