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Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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Horn Under a Bad Sign

Horn Under a Bad Sign 20459

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Great editorial. Conservatism has a violence problem.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/opinion/el-paso-shooting-republicans-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fbyline%2Fdavid-leonhardt&action=click&contentCollection=undefined&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection

 

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4th&Five
4th&Five

Fuck off. You vote for this shit. Explain that to your kids. 

Pancho
Pancho

3rd leg of my move from Houston to the Bay Area, and I made it to LA.   I’m just now catching up on the news in my hotel.  I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again—I don’t have kids, but this e

royiv
royiv

WTF world are we living in when people are having a discussion about survival rates of certain rounds? People are being terrorized by gun violence and we're discussing which bullet has worse/better ch

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tchookem

tchookem 3904

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I think it's more likely he'll make some promises today or tomorrow, be congratulated by his followers for being a great leader and compromising (along with some whining about how libs will never be happy with anything he does - "he could cure cancer and they wouldn't give him credit!"), and then gradually back away from this and nothing will actually happen.  As I recall, this is how his last foray into gun control/regulation went.


You left out the part where it's the Dens fault for not compromising. You did mention them not giving him credit. The placing of blame is a subtle, but vital step in the process.
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InkaUtexas

InkaUtexas 26012

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6 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

How long until there’s a conspiracy theory about them being crisis actors?

sadly it is probably already out there. Saw one post on twitter showing how similar the shooters looked and they must be from some government lab. 

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Ten Bears

Ten Bears 2481

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Did anyone watch the 60 Minutes episode last night showing how Sandy and Lonnie Phillips, who lost a daughter at the Aurora Theater massacre, travel to all of these mass shootings to provide very useful support for the families who were affected?  Very moving piece.  They sued the gun manufacturer who supplied the gun that killed their daughter, lost and now owe the gun company for their legal fees.  

They have a website where you can donate to help with their expenses: Survivors Empowered

Edited by Ten Bears
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Degenerate Gardner

Degenerate Gardner 4085

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Great editorial. Conservatism has a violence problem.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/opinion/el-paso-shooting-republicans-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fbyline%2Fdavid-leonhardt&action=click&contentCollection=undefined&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection

 

My only quibble: It's Republicans who have a violence problem.  Conservatives are a topic for cryptozoologists, like the yeti.

 

Edited by Degenerate Gardner
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hpslugga

hpslugga 4062

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1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

I'm not sure if you are generally expounding here or specifically reply to what I said. If it's the former, I will defer to you on what the data says and what is true or false around mass shootings as I've honestly just now kind of woke to the issue of mass shootings as something that will be part of our reality. If it's the latter, not sure what the thoughts and prayers dig to me was.

It wasn't directed at you in specific, just to anyone and everyone who defaults to that line whenever one of these nightmares plays out. 

If the beginning of the quoted portion was in reference to my comments about the "good guy with the gun," that burden has always been on those making the positive claim, i.e. the claim that such people exist and in the numbers they infer. They've failed miserably to meet that burden, which is why they revert to the same tactic that 24/7-wrong-all-the-damn-time people use: shift the burden of proof. If they had data to support what they've said about it, they would have presented it rather than using the same fallacious arguments they've always been known to use. 

1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

I'm pretty okay with being emotional/fear driven around this issue

That's a very poor choice.

It's a poor choice because it opens one to being easily led by people with a skin in the game to make one decision over another. In this case, as Bama Chick mentioned, this is the exact frame of mind to which NRA people want people like you to fall. It's not because they're earnest, honest believers in the 2nd amendment (they don't even know what it actually says), it's not because they believe in the good-guy-with-a-gun myth (they have to know by now that it's all 100% bullshit), and it's not even because they think law enforcement would be helped by earnest citizens who are armed to the teeth (even they know that's profusely stupid). They push this because they are tied to gun manufacturers/retailers and, in exchange for the support that they get from same, they have to promote the kind of climate that produces as many gun purchasers as possible. It's the same reason that drug dealers promote the idea that the world is shit, that there's nothing you can do about it except continue to escape reality temporarily by getting high off whatever they're selling. Yeah, no shit they promote that idea; they benefit from people believing it.

A fool is a person who too readily believes in improbable claims (good guy with a gun) from questionable sources (the NRA) based on insufficient evidence (BECAUSE WE SAID SO, DAMNIT!!!). Organizations like the NRA prey on fools.

 

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28793

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2 hours ago, Rougarou said:

Anecdotal, but I went to buy a gun today at a big box retailer and the guy selling them said all the background checks today have been delayed. Sure enough mine was too-- he said that the conspiracy is the FBI is delaying everything today after this weekend. 

Maybe they anticipated a big rush of Hispanics looking to buy guns to defend themselves from white nationalists. 

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Chooky

Chooky 13317

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Nothing more American than expediting executions instead of fucking around with all this competent representation and appeal bullshit. Put them in an old Tercel and slap a dildo on the hood and make them go up against Truckzilla and Gravedigger. Ow my balls. 

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Ted Lange

Ted Lange 16110

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38 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

How long until there’s a conspiracy theory about them being crisis actors?

Search False Flag on twitter.  Bunch of Qanon Trump supporting dimwits are sure this was all fake.  These people make up most the mental health issue in the country.

 

 

 

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89750

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12 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Also ... a white supremacist conference at a state park in Tennessee seems like a great place for the FBI and other counter terrorism agencies to infiltrate.

If I was an FBI agent wanting to study these folks, I'd come up with a conference to bring them all to me.

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retread

retread 2951

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^ Is this real life?

Quote

FBI agents are hesitant to investigate white nationalist extremists because they don't want to be seen as pursuing investigations against President Donald Trump's base, a former FBI counterterrorism agent told The Washington Post.

The former agent, Dave Gomez, said he believes that FBI Director Christopher Wray "is an honorable man, but I think in many ways the FBI is hamstrung in trying to investigate the white supremacist movement like the old FBI would."

"There's some reluctance among agents to bring forth an investigation that targets what the president perceives as his base," Gomez said. "It's a no-win situation for the FBI agent or supervisor."

 

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Chooky

Chooky 13317

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37 minutes ago, Pancho said:

 

This guy does not fuck. He was made for this. Packaged with complimentary mommy issues, too! Just like Norman Bates! Bad skin. Wonky eye. Masturbates to Highlander reruns. Once fell in love with a girl who accidentally bumped into his backpack on public transportation. Will passionately debate you on crossbow brands. Reviews stuffed crust pizza on Yelp. 8chan account not included.

Butt weight! THERE'S MORE!!! Oh goddamn you better believe there's more!

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Longhornfan1024

Longhornfan1024 1707

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1 hour ago, Ted Lange said:

 

Crisis adverted!   You can bet these racist mass murderers will think twice about shooting up innocent folks now that there is the potential of legislation that will ensure they get the death penalty!

 

The data show that the death penalty doesn't have a deterrent effect beyond that provided by life without the possibility of parole.  This will do nothing to prevent future attacks (and it's unconstitutional), but I'm pretty sure Trump can't even spell data so it makes sense that he would propose it as a solution.  

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Stochastic terrorism bred actual physical terrorism, with real dead (brown) bodies.  Full stop.  Quit pissing around with the fucking details, and own the simple fact: we have a major homegrown genocidal terrorist problem, and it is and will continue to be stoked and courted by American political leadership.  We are a state sponsor of terrorism....right here at home.

Fuck the stochastic terrorism shit, this is FASCISM.  Terrorism on our own citizens as state policy conducted by the president of the United States. 

Here. it. is. 

No more shying away from it.

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11343

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Man I'm nostalgic right now...remember what it was like to have a real President?  Whether you agreed with his politics or not, you'd have to be a serious nut job to think he wasn't a good guy.

Here's Obama's response to the shooting...spoilered

Spoiler

Michelle and I grieve with all the families in El Paso and Dayton who endured these latest mass shootings. Even if details are still emerging, there are a few things we already know to be true.

First, no other nation on Earth comes close to experiencing the frequency of mass shootings that we see in the United States. No other developed nation tolerates the levels of gun violence that we do. Every time this happens, we’re told that tougher gun laws won’t stop all murders; that they won’t stop every deranged individual from getting a weapon and shooting innocent people in public places. But the evidence shows that they can stop some killings. They can save some families from heartbreak. We are not helpless here. And until all of us stand up and insist on holding public officials accountable for changing our gun laws, these tragedies will keep happening.

Second, while the motivations behind these shootings may not yet be fully known, there are indications that the El Paso shooting follows a dangerous trend: troubled individuals who embrace racist ideologies and see themselves obligated to act violently to preserve white supremacy. Like the followers of ISIS and other foreign terrorist organizations, these individuals may act alone, but they’ve been radicalized by white nationalist websites that proliferate on the internet. That means that both law enforcement agencies and internet platforms need to come up with better strategies to reduce the influence of these hate groups.

But just as important, all of us have to send a clarion call and behave with the values of tolerance and diversity that should be the hallmark of our democracy. We should soundly reject language coming out of the mouths of any of our leaders that feeds a climate of fear and hatred or normalizes racist sentiments; leaders who demonize those who don’t look like us, or suggest that other people, including immigrants, threaten our way of life, or refer to other people as sub-human, or imply that America belongs to just one certain type of people. Such language isn’t new – it’s been at the root of most human tragedy throughout history, here in America and around the world. It is at the root of slavery and Jim Crow, the Holocaust, the genocide in Rwanda and ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. It has no place in our politics and our public life. And it’s time for the overwhelming majority of Americans of goodwill, of every race and faith and political party, to say as much – clearly and unequivocally.

 

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elguapo

elguapo 4586

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25 minutes ago, American Swindle said:

Yeah Trump's wrong on Capital Punishment for sure.  

Humans will always be violent, gun control measures are not the answer in my, what appears to be unpopular on Surly, opinion.  

There's no connection between having a gun and shooting someone with it, and not having a gun and not shooting someone.... and you'd be a fool and a communist to make one.

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Chooky

Chooky 13317

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26 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

You think this lady's TV has ever been turned off of eitherr FoxNews or OAN?

 

The GAYS caused the shooting!  Fucking typical vapid GOP idiot.

Look out, Ben!  There's a new HUD Sec on the radar.

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scottsins

scottsins 1968

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Regarding the new “suggestion that an executive agency propose a law, to then go to Congress” involving the death penalty:

Ummm...the vast majority of these shooters die while committing these atrocities. Potential murderers are aware and accept death as a consequence.
I mean, most people would assume the death penalty was already the punishment for these acts.

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RomaVicta

RomaVicta 29946

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4 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

First I’ve heard about 8 of the victims being Mexican citizens.
 

Let's all hold our breath waiting for the president to send condolences or an apology to Mexico for this tragedy that horrifies us all.

How would the US reacted to a terrrorist who killed eight US citizens in a foreign country?

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elguapo

elguapo 4586

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1 minute ago, longhornmatt said:

There’s so much wrong to unpack with Trump’s proposal.  

1. Mass killings are mostly going to be state law crimes that the DOJ and the federal government don’t prosecute anyway.  

2.It’s unconstitutional to do ... whatever it is Trump has in mind to curtail due process and appellate rights of defendants to make sure they are automatically executed pronto.

3. As you point out, the deterrent effect is nil.  Usually they commit suicide or expect to die at the scene.  But if they don’t, taking El Paso as the example, what fucking idiot doesn’t think he is getting the death penalty for mass murder in Texas of all places?  Uh, thanks, Donald, but I don’t think Texas needs extra prompting to consider capital punishment.

He is such an idiot.  Of course his proposal would be some bullshit like this.

Yes but for his supporters the idiocy is a feature not a bug.

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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Does Trump, or any of his shit-for-brains base, understand how states work?  You can't order your federal dept. of Justice to hand down death penalties to anyone in other states, except for maybe certain forms of egregious Treason.  Oh...(puts pinky in corner of mouth).  State by State capital punishment hasn't been a federal in quite awhile, Mr. Trump---you fucking child.   Shit, some of the most liberal/anti-death penalty states only recently stopped and not completely-just via gubernatorial moratorium---like California, Oregon, Colorado, and Pennsylvania.  Somewhat "swing" state have long since halted the practice like Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina, Louisiana, and Florida.  

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Bama Chick

Bama Chick 28596

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Thought it was 7 but could be wrong. The mexican news stations have been reporting it all day today. 


Two more victims succumbed to their injuries and died today - one this morning and one a couple of hours ago - so maybe it was 7 until a couple of hours ago.
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GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I didn’t say I wanted to go the border and shoot migrants. You did.

I didn’t say “shoot em!” at a Trump rally - trunmpkin did. And the crowd laughed. And the president laughed.

I don’t have to call that terrorism. It is, no matter what we call it.

But surely you’re right - if the libs weren’t so mean to you, you wouldn’t have to go shoot Mexicans. That’s clearly it.

You’re the wife-beating husband saying “if she just wasn’t so mouthy, and if she would have dinner ready when I get home, all this could have been avoided. I didn’t WANT to beat her....she brought this on herself.”

You don't disappoint. People like you like to tar and feather Tucker for white nationalism for being against the disaster we have with illegal immigration. I watch his show and read his books. By such characterizations, you'd think you'd hear him go on rants against Hispanics or Muslims describing them as subhuman. He called out Ilhan Omar for vilifying the country that saved her family from the refugee camps. I am guilty of anti-Muslim bias; that was not the basis of his critique of her. The libs don't want a discussion and want to silence us on the right. That pisses me off. We can't even have a decent discussion here. Look at what happened with BurntEyes yesterday.

Edited by Iconoclast Texan
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GHOSTUSER

GHOSTUSER 361

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1 minute ago, Fondren & Main said:

Did Trump's rhetoric cause the Dayton shooting too?  Any details on that one?   Nobody seems to be talking about it.  

The Dayton shooter was a registered Democrat. The Ohio Board of Elections reveals Betts began voting in 2012, and next voted in the Democratic Party Ohio Primary on March 15 of 2016. After voting in the 2016 General Election, Betts later voted in the 2018 Democratic Party Primary on May 8, 2018. Betts voted in a total of 7 elections, including Democratic Primaries

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YChang

YChang 3455

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1 minute ago, Fondren & Main said:

Did Trump's rhetoric cause the Dayton shooting too?  Any details on that one?   Nobody seems to be talking about it.  

Come on... I get you're team non-democrat/libs... but really?

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Fondren & Main

Fondren & Main 6726

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2 minutes ago, YChang said:

Come on... I get you're team non-democrat/libs... but really?

I'm just making a point.  2 shootings in less than 24 hours.  Both guys are lunatics.  That's the point...

All the talking points coming out now seek to do nothing, but divide and conquer.  It's pretty disgusting to be honest.

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