Active shooter thread

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

27 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Jesus.
 

 

The scariest thing about these guys is they are so entrenched in the ideology and they are self-radicalized.  These aren’t your klansmen or skinheads from the 70s that run with a crew and have some small sense of fellowship or community to keep some sliver of their humanity in tact. 

These new killers are more Timothy McVeigh types that will go to the gas chamber with pride wanting to do it all over again.  Sick sick motherfuckers.

[HenryJames 66041]

5 hours ago, Celery Man said:

 

@Vic Mackey

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13580]

6 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

Can y’all do something about Gohmert?
 

Go on...

[DixonHur 11296]

Seems I must be misunderstanding what preachers do...

[wildcat09 29349]

14 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

I am outraged and want new legislation. I don't own a gun and am fine with gun control. I am voting against this President in 2020 so shit can calm down. I would rather have the Dems win to calm shit down. Ending illegal immigration and limiting and changing legal immigration standards should be on the table and discussed in 2024. It won't because you'll be called a racist if you do. Tucker is not afraid to have that discussion. I hope he runs in 2024 after shit cools down. Enough with the flamethrowers

Bullshit. The El Paso shooter did literally what you’ve said you want to do. You’re among the absolute worst humanity has to offer. Own it, you vile coward.

[Homercles 10205]

11 hours ago, Celery Man said:

 

I just imagine this guy running to his machine gun nest, spraying bullets all over the place while his children run, screaming, near his field of fire with hot brass flying and ricochets rebounding off rocks, yelling about the libs.  

Sounds like madeup bullshit to me...so his yard is constantly full of rotting pig carcasses?  Maybe build a strong fence that encloses the play area?  If I lived somewhere that had feral hogs running out every time my kids stepped foot outside, I would take a different approach.  

Edited August 6, 2019 by Homercles

[jimmyjazz 45897]

5 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

The scariest thing about these guys is they are so entrenched in the ideology and they are self-radicalized.

They're not self-radicalized.  The support and encouragement they get from 8chan and the like are a big part of what allows them to move on from fantasy to reality.  KXAN did a story on work done by The Violence Project where they are attempting to find common threads between perpetrators of 163 mass shootings (4 or more fatalities) since the UT Tower shooting.  The 4 key points they have identified are:

 

* troubled or traumatic childhood

* crisis point where living is no longer a desirable option

* validation of the consequences they are contemplating

* accessibility -- people, places and guns

 

The Violence Project on KXAN

[jimmyjazz 45897]

12 minutes ago, Homercles said:

Sounds like madeup bullshit to me...so his yard is constantly full of rotting pig carcasses?  Maybe build a strong fence that encloses the play area?

Do you mean like . . . a wall?

[Anastasis 23466]

42 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

They're not self-radicalized.  The support and encouragement they get from 8chan and the like are a big part of what allows them to move on from fantasy to reality.  KXAN did a story on work done by The Violence Project where they are attempting to find common threads between perpetrators of 163 mass shootings (4 or more fatalities) since the UT Tower shooting.  The 4 key points they have identified are:

 

* troubled or traumatic childhood

* crisis point where living is no longer a desirable option

* validation of the consequences they are contemplating

* accessibility -- people, places and guns

 

The Violence Project on KXAN

 

The LA Times piece on this was also linked on the other thread. It is worth a read. The role of social media is a central component to understanding shootings like El Paso and Christchurch.  The depraved online troll culture intersects with tech manipulation algorithms driving a dehumanizing extremist feedback loop while simultaneously socially isolating individuals with a broken predisposition. Acknowledging this specific aspect of the problem does not in any way take away from the broader influence of dangerous political rhetoric. But when you have three racist terrorist attacks running through the same site, as well as others from other sites, its something that needs to be discussed. Here is an article from March, exploring the topic a bit after Christchurch. If we are going to ask some questions about the role of the second amendment in this debate, maybe it's also time we asking some questions about the role of the first?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/15/technology/facebook-youtube-christchurch-shooting.html#

And the manifesto — a wordy mixture of white nationalist boilerplate, fascist declarations and references to obscure internet jokes — seems to have been written from the bottom of an algorithmic rabbit hole.

It would be unfair to blame the internet for this. Motives are complex, lives are complicated, and we don’t yet know all the details about the shooting. Anti-Muslim violence is not an online phenomenon, and white nationalist hatred long predates 4Chan and Reddit.

But we do know that the design of internet platforms can create and reinforce extremist beliefs. Their recommendation algorithms often steer users toward edgier content, a loop that results in more time spent on the app, and more advertising revenue for the company. Their hate speech policies are weakly enforced. And their practices for removing graphic videos — like the ones that circulated on social media for hours after the Christchurch shooting, despite the companies’ attempts to remove them — are inconsistent at best.

We also know that many recent acts of offline violence bear the internet’s imprint. Robert Bowers, the man charged with killing 11 people and wounding six others at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, was a frequent user of Gab, a social media platform beloved by extremists. Cesar Sayoc, the man charged with sending explosives to prominent critics of President Trump last year, was immersed in a cesspool of right-wing Facebook and Twitter memes.

People used to conceive of “online extremism” as distinct from the extremism that took form in the physical world. If anything, the racism and bigotry on internet message boards felt a little less dangerous than the prospect of Ku Klux Klan marches or skinhead rallies.

Now, online extremism is just regular extremism on steroids. There is no offline equivalent of the experience of being algorithmically nudged toward a more strident version of your existing beliefs, or having an invisible hand steer you from gaming videos to neo-Nazism. The internet is now the place where the seeds of extremism are planted and watered, where platform incentives guide creators toward the ideological poles, and where people with hateful and violent beliefs can find and feed off one another.

So the pattern continues. People become fluent in the culture of online extremism, they make and consume edgy memes, they cluster and harden. And once in a while, one of them erupts.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Anastasis

[housious 468]

Are we talking about gun control here? I'll go ahead and try to make a reasonable post, even though I should know better. 

I've owned an AR15 for 7 or 8 years, but I truly don't see the need for them to be available to citizens. Outlaw them, create a buy back program for them, and I'll bring mine in without hesitation. 

I do get why some are scared of the slippery slope when it comes to banning guns. If that led to other gun bans, specifically ones that have legit use for home defense and hunting, I'd be pissed. It's happened in other places and it's reasonable to think it could happen here. 

Frankly, as long as we can still own shotguns, bolt action rifles, and wheel guns I'm fine with everything else going away. 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20394]

If the internet disappeared tomorrow, would we be better off?

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Why the fuck do random 18/19 year olds have semi automatic weapons? Especially kids that had a hit list in HS.

[Guest Lobo]

Seems weird 19 year olds can't buy Juul products anymore, but they can buy 100-round magazines.  I'm still a proponent of the 2nd Amendment, but the Constitution is awkwardly silent on the liberties related to e-cigarettes . 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

11 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

If the internet disappeared tomorrow, would we be better off?

Other than our entire economy and infrastructure collapsing, sure.

[Ted Lange 16084]

Imagine for a moment If the El Paso shooter had been Muslim and instead of shooting up brown folks he had targeted white Christians.  Imagine if his "manifesto" was based on ISIS/AQ rhetoric.

Would the GOP and the Dotard be blaming the shooting on mental illness and video games?

Where are all the anti-PC crowd who screamed about people on the left not saying radical islam?   You guys are pissed about this blatant PC white washing of what happened, right?

[yoladu 4093]

10 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

You see, the only answer to this terrorism is a fascist military police state with armed guards everywhere.   We have no choice. 

 

"if they (retired police officers) donate 15 hours a week to their local school,  lets make it that they pay no income taxes, state, federal at all, as a thank you for donating their time - and it won't cost us a penny.

A lot to unpack there.

[Js1 85305]

3 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

Imagine for a moment If the El Paso shooter had been Muslim and instead of shooting up brown folks he had targeted white Christians.  Imagine if his "manifesto" was based on ISIS/AQ rhetoric.

Would the GOP and the Dotard be blaming the shooting on mental illness and video games?

Where are all the anti-PC crowd who screamed about people on the left not saying radical islam?   You guys are pissed about this blatant PC white washing of what happened, right?

[Ted Lange 16084]

14 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

Imagine for a moment If the El Paso shooter had been Muslim and instead of shooting up brown folks he had targeted white Christians.  Imagine if his "manifesto" was based on ISIS/AQ rhetoric.

Would the GOP and the Dotard be blaming the shooting on mental illness and video games?

Where are all the anti-PC crowd who screamed about people on the left not saying radical islam?   You guys are pissed about this blatant PC white washing of what happened, right?

Think we get anything close to this from our idiot President about all the white terrorism?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hank Kingsley 20914]

Mayor Pete announced a plan this morning. 

 

[David Dennison 18853]

Has he said "radical white terrorism" yet?

 

[Js1 85305]

At this point, wishing and hoping for the Senate to act - whether by winning the Senate, eliminating the filibuster or a Republican change of heart - is about as pointless as waiting for Trump to admit his hair is fake and he's actually 269 pounds.

I 100% support the Democrat who wins in 2020 take executive action immediately.  Fuck waiting around for Congress to screw it up.  Day 1 agenda should be executive action on guns. 

[retread 2951]

Quote

Sean Hannity is just rambling like a complete mad man right now, I just honestly have no clue wtf he's even going on about this is just verbal diarrhea

bUt HoW WilL wE pAy fOr iT?????

[Biff Tannen 45673]

7 minutes ago, Js1 said:

At this point, wishing and hoping for the Senate to act - whether by winning the Senate, eliminating the filibuster or a Republican change of heart - is about as pointless as waiting for Trump to admit his hair is fake and he's actually 269 pounds.

I 100% support the Democrat who wins in 2020 take executive action immediately.  Fuck waiting around for Congress to screw it up.  Day 1 agenda should be executive action on guns. 

269?  Come on.  That's the low end at best.

[Rougarou 594]

59 minutes ago, housious said:

Are we talking about gun control here? I'll go ahead and try to make a reasonable post, even though I should know better. 

I've owned an AR15 for 7 or 8 years, but I truly don't see the need for them to be available to citizens. Outlaw them, create a buy back program for them, and I'll bring mine in without hesitation. 

I do get why some are scared of the slippery slope when it comes to banning guns. If that led to other gun bans, specifically ones that have legit use for home defense and hunting, I'd be pissed. It's happened in other places and it's reasonable to think it could happen here. 

Frankly, as long as we can still own shotguns, bolt action rifles, and wheel guns I'm fine with everything else going away. 

I agree with this sentiment which I think is a nice "Why not both?":

We can have responsible, common sense gun reform (ban AR-15's, bump rounds, etc.) and responsible, common sense gun ownership (rifles, shotguns and weak pistols (.380 or 9mms).

[RomaVicta 29904]

9 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

Anti-gun. You’re damn right.

While y’all are getting rid of Gohmert get rid of this cockknuckle too.
 

I'm always amused by the notion that God has been kicked out of schools. The Almighty grabbed by the scruff of his omnipotent neck to have is ubiquitous ass kicked out of the doorway of a school. The World-destroyer pathetically rubs his ass and fights back tears as he lies on the sidewalk.

I'm not amused thinking of the number of indoctrinated meatheads nodding as Patrick speaks.

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

12 minutes ago, Js1 said:

At this point, wishing and hoping for the Senate to act - whether by winning the Senate, eliminating the filibuster or a Republican change of heart - is about as pointless as waiting for Trump to admit his hair is fake and he's actually 269 pounds.

I 100% support the Democrat who wins in 2020 take executive action immediately.  Fuck waiting around for Congress to screw it up.  Day 1 agenda should be executive action on guns. 

Declare a national emergency. The precedent has been set. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

I had heard it was under a minute, but CNN says the Dayton shooter was killed less than 30 seconds after he fired his first shot.   That much damage from one person with a gun in 30 seconds. 

They're also reporting that he had a lot of writings at home showing he was obsessed with killing people, but no connection with anything political.

[Pato del Muerto 52488]

I’d be interested in hearing how enforcement of this emergency executive action would work, whether it’s mag limits or “assault style” bans or other. 

I know how manufacturers would have to respond, but people that have items just declared illegal won’t be lining up to turn them in at the police precincts. 

[jimmyjazz 45897]

2 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

I had heard it was under a minute, but CNN says the Dayton shooter was killed less than 30 seconds after he fired his first shot.   That much damage from one person with a gun in 30 seconds. 

They're also reporting that he had a lot of writings at home showing he was obsessed with killing people, but no connection with anything political.

 

There was a blurb on some low-level bizarro "news" site yesterday that suggested he flipped because his sister was dating a black guy.  I have no idea if that is grounded in even a shred of truth.  I looked for more reputable sources and found nothing, which is a pretty big clue (and why I never posted anything about it). 

Edited August 6, 2019 by jimmyjazz

[tantric superman 4667]

Damn.  He think soul brother too boucoup?

[DDD Dad 14332]

7 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Damn.  He think soul brother too boucoup?

 

[fattyflattie 4639]

2 hours ago, housious said:

Frankly, as long as we can still own shotguns, bolt action rifles, and wheel guns I'm fine with everything else going away. 

I am in 100% agreement.  And I’m someone who owns several of each. I’m also for considerably stricter background checks and licensing.  But I don’t believe it will stop these killings, maybe lessen the deaths, maybe not.   A high cap shotgun with buckshot would do the same damn thing.  

[jimmyjazz 45897]

I have to question the logic behind "weapon X would do the same damn thing".  There has to be a reason that, far more often than not, these shooters use an AR-15 or similar.  It's obviously the preferred weapon.  It stands to reason that there is at least the presumption that other weapons would not be as effective.

[Sbbruin 21839]

6 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I am in 100% agreement.  And I’m someone who owns several of each. I’m also for considerably stricter background checks and licensing.  But I don’t believe it will stop these killings, maybe lessen the deaths, maybe not.   A high cap shotgun with buckshot would do the same damn thing.  

I don't think there is any question that it would reduce the number of deaths.  One instance where a shooter only has access to semi auto weapons vs auto weapons would undoubtedly result in fewer casualties.  And if that meant one of my loved ones lived vs died, well, it was worth it.

[David Dennison 18853]

The Second Amendment is the problem. It should be repealed.

Oh well.

[Dnaguy 11939]

7 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I am in 100% agreement.  And I’m someone who owns several of each. I’m also for considerably stricter background checks and licensing.  But I don’t believe it will stop these killings, maybe lessen the deaths, maybe not.   A high cap shotgun with buckshot would do the same damn thing.  

Seat belts didn’t stop all automobile deaths.

They sure as hell helped reduce them.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The Second Amendment is the problem. It should be repealed.

Oh well.

Alternatively, the partisan Republican Supreme Court majority is the problem, and it needs to become the minority. 

[David Dennison 18853]

3 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Alternatively, the partisan Republican Supreme Court majority is the problem, and it needs to become the minority. 

There are many problems with America's gun fetish.

[DixonHur 11296]

2 hours ago, Lobo said:

Seems weird 19 year olds can't buy Juul products anymore, but they can buy 100-round magazines.  I'm still a proponent of the 2nd Amendment, but the Constitution is awkwardly silent on the liberties related to e-cigarettes . 

Which reading?  The James Madison version from 1789 or the late '80s version brought to you by the NRA?  You know, the one that the uber liberal Justice Burger called "a fraud on the American public"

It still amazes me that the right wing nut jobs think the 2nd Amendment starts and ends with this phrase...

Quote

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

While the intelligent/sane people recognize that there is a previous clause stating the reasoning behind the second part...

Quote

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State

 

Is it me, or do none of these mass shooters seem like members of a "well regulated Militia"?

Here's a good, short, version from a few years ago that goes into how it happened.

[retread 2951]

So far this morning, I've seen several new red herrings.

America is turning anti-gun. Guns are popular, so we can't legislate against them. Guns are a major investment tool for some people, so you can't mess with that.

We love to twist ourselves in knots to justify certain things.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

If you want an excellent return on investment for your AR-15, you should be all for the government declaring them a Class III firearm like M60s and Glock 18s. 

[Nivek 16923]

Investment? Maybe Patton’s pistols I could see, but an AR has all the investment potential of commemorative plates.

[retread 2951]

Saw a trauma surgeon interviewed yesterday describing the damage done by the rounds fired in El Paso. Totally devastating for internal organs. I haven't seen what specific round he used.

Here's what he wanted to use:

Quote

In a four-page screed suspected to have been released by the El Paso gunman, the author lamented that his WASR 10 rifle, an AK-47 variant, couldn’t match the lethality of an AR-15. So, to boost his weapon’s killing capacity, he sought out 8M3 ammunition, a hollow-point rifle round known for its ability to expand and fragment on impact, creating catastrophic wounds. The gunman described the 8M3 as a “bullet unlike any other.”

Police are yet to address whether or not the gunman successfully acquired and used 8M3 ammunition in the August 3 shooting that left 20 people dead and 26 injured. But if the shooter did, it could have had grave consequences for victims, making the work of emergency responders and trauma surgeons more difficult. And the fact that the 8M3 is available at all to American civilians stems from the deep-seated fervor among both some sellers and gun owners for ever-more lethal technology. 

https://www.thetrace.org/2019/08/el-paso-mass-shooting-8m3-ammunition/

[Mojo Hand 4580]

If the right cares so much about preserving investments, why have they shut down so many medical practices that provide abortion services? 

[fattyflattie 4639]

34 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

 

I have to question the logic behind "weapon X would do the same damn thing". 

 

That’s fair, as I know you’ve stated before that you aren’t very familiar with guns.  A 12 gauge semi auto gun firing 00 buckshot would be as lethal in many of the mass shootings we’ve witnessed over the last few years, LV being the obvious exception.  

A 3” 12ga 00 buckshot Shell contains between 8 and 16 .33 caliber pellets.  Average rounds are 1100-1600 fps.   So just using dumb math we can say 12 pellets at 1300 fps, very similar to a 3” 1-1/8oz off the shelf load.  

Just your off the shelf dove gun (Berreta A400) can hold 5 rounds with the plug out.  

The dipshit in Ohio fired 41 projectiles iirc, in 30 seconds.  The shotgun mentioned above can fire 60 projectiles in 3 seconds. And I’m not joking about the 3 seconds, I’ll find a movie clip after this post (on phone). Obviously each projectile isn’t hitting 1 person/per, however with the right distance, proper choke, and proper crowd density, it would be fucking devastating.  

That was an off the shelf gun that is used for dove hunting 99.9999999% of the time.

Now let’s examine a purpose made shotgun such as the DP-12, which holds 16 shells. 16*12= 192.   192 .33 caliber projectiles (43% diameter increase over 5.56/.223, albeit a reduced fps) in seconds.   The AR bullet is superior in causing damage, for sure.

My guess is that the AR is popular because 1)entry level is affordable 2) it’s military like, machismo feeling bullshit 3) the recoil is nothing (I’m assuming these mass killers are generally pussies) 4) they may not even know any better - most are young and probably only know about guns what they’ve read about (obv not with LV guy). 5) it does a really good job at killing things. 

The post I quoted said take away (buy back) all AR’s and I responded that would be fine with me.  Or limit the high capacity mags, I don’t care about those either. My point was that you can make rather benign “hunting” (A-400) guns just as if not more deadly in the right situations. And these are planned attacks (mostly), so I’m sure someone could plan the right way to make it just as deadly. 

 

 

[housious 468]

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

I am in 100% agreement.  And I’m someone who owns several of each. I’m also for considerably stricter background checks and licensing.  But I don’t believe it will stop these killings, maybe lessen the deaths, maybe not.   A high cap shotgun with buckshot would do the same damn thing.  

Yeah. There would have to be some limits on accessories to shotguns, meaning you probably shouldn't be carrying around a Saiga with a massive drum mag. 

[Js1 85305]

8 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

If the right cares so much about preserving investments, why have they shut down so many medical practices that provide abortion services? 

Imagine if you had to drive 100 miles to buy a gun because there was only 1 place to do it in your state.  And you were required to wait 48 hours, but only after looking at photos of dead kids killed by mass shooters? And speak to a medical professional before being allowed to buy the gun. 

[retread 2951]

That's too complicated. - John Cornyn

[fattyflattie 4639]

12 minutes ago, housious said:

Yeah. There would have to be some limits on accessories to shotguns, meaning you probably shouldn't be carrying around a Saiga with a massive drum mag. 

Of course. I figured you meant any typical field/sporting gun. Not even home defense, which is where the lines start to blur imo. 

[Ghost of LL 15531]

So now something is going on in Baton Rouge?