Active shooter thread

[royiv 9323]

39 minutes ago, B00M said:

Off topic but it would be great if schools taught firearm safety. Maybe in late elementary when it can leave an impression and maybe save lives. Especially in school districts that allow teachers to carry.

Separation of church and state. We can't let the Church of Gun (NRA) into our schools.

[NIUHuskies 504]

You want gut wrenching. Scroll through the latest obits from the Uvalde Leader News:

https://www.uvaldeleadernews.com/category/obituaries/

[CooterBrown 18014]

Off topic but it would be great if schools taught firearm safety. Maybe in late elementary when it can leave an impression and maybe save lives. Especially in school districts that allow teachers to carry.

WTF.

Brought to you by the same idiots that don’t want sex ed, history, and CRT taught in schools.

[Captainant 27678]

1 hour ago, B00M said:

There are no accidental discharges. Failing to secure your firearm is negligence. Discharging a round in your house or creating a situation where someone else can is negligent. If there is a ND, the hollow point might actually save your ass by getting stuck in a wall.

IMO, if the gun has a mechanical failure from a drop or worn out sear that causes a discharge, that's accidental. But if you pull the bang switch without meaning to, that's an ND. Unless you're a cop, of course. 

A better rule is to not keep one in the pipe if you've got some deputy Fife in you

[C-Man 27230]

8 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Yep. That was first time it dawned on me that they were able to be swayed.  Naive of me I guess before that, but I always saw them as apolitical (which I guess they largely are).  I’ll leave it up to others to tell me if they are more or less than they were 25-30 years ago. 

You know, most of the time when faced with a spiraling global pandemic taking hold the Administration is going to work in concert with the CDC. That didn't necessarily happen with Trump's merry band of pranksters. Hell, his family was trying to profit on K95 masks and shit IIRC.

[MrBig 5404]

AR-15s do serious damage, but I had no idea various types of ammunition made such a difference. Check out this video where the guy shoots a boned pork shoulder with different types of bullets. There’s a lot of talking describing the ammunition, but it shows detailed camera views of entrance and exit wounds in the meat. Way different than seeing ballistic gel examples that don’t get blown apart so easily. It’s hard to stomach thinking of people getting struck by these things, especially small children. 
 

 

[C-Man 27230]

16 minutes ago, MrBig said:

AR-15s do serious damage, but I had no idea various types of ammunition made such a difference. Check out this video where the guy shoots a boned pork shoulder with different types of bullets. There’s a lot of talking describing the ammunition, but it shows detailed camera views of entrance and exit wounds in the meat. Way different than seeing ballistic gel examples that don’t get blown apart so easily. It’s hard to stomach thinking of people getting struck by these things, especially small children. 
 

 

Jesus Fucking Christ

[Anastasis 23473]

5 hours ago, Captainant said:

IMO, if the gun has a mechanical failure from a drop or worn out sear that causes a discharge, that's accidental. 

Got it, Alec. 

[B00M 6416]

7 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

 

WTF.

Brought to you by the same idiots that don’t want sex ed, history, and CRT taught in schools.

 

WTF indeed. CRT isn't taught in our schools, sex ed is and should be (abstinence is a fantasy), and who the fuck doesn't want history taught? C'mon man. We live in a society with a gun violence problem and more guns than people and a short course on gun safety that does not teach gun use is completely unreasonable? Edit - the course should include conflict resolution, coping skills, how to access resources to help with anxiety, depression, etc, etc. Call it a Growing up in Modern America course if you want. But its needed

Edited June 10, 2022 by B00M

[Biff Tannen 45691]

12 minutes ago, B00M said:

WTF indeed. CRT isn't taught in our schools, sex ed is and should be (abstinence is a fantasy), and who the fuck doesn't want history taught? C'mon man. We live in a society with a gun violence problem and more guns than people and a short course on gun safety that does not teach gun use is completely unreasonable? Edit - the course should include conflict resolution, coping skills, how to access resources to help with anxiety, depression, etc, etc. Call it a Growing up in Modern America course if you want. But its needed

I sadly don’t really disagree. We are such a fucked up country that this actually maybe makes sense. 

[Mo Horn 8848]

Another reason found for gun violence. Anything but the guns. 

[Anastasis 23473]

Timely.

FACT CHECKER

Lying to ATF on gun-purchase form yields few prosecutions, data shows

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/09/lying-atf-gun-purchase-form-yields-few-prosecutions-new-data-shows/

Spoiler

Lying to ATF on gun-purchase form yields few prosecutions, data shows

Analysis by Glenn Kessler

 

“Lying on an ATF form 4473 is a federal violation and can lead to severe penalties and jail time. Don’t lie and buy.”

— Tweet from the Houston office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), Sept. 8, 2021

Form 4473 — the Firearm Transaction Record — is a six-page document that must be filled out whenever someone buys a firearm from a licensed firearm dealer.

The form asks questions including whether the person buying the gun is a felon, whether the person is a fugitive from justice or convicted of domestic abuse, whether the person is addicted to drugs and whether the person is the actual buyer of the firearm.

This tweet by ATF’s Houston office led a swarm of Twitter users to ask why the bureau didn’t charge Hunter Biden, the president’s son, for allegedly lying on Form 4473 when he purchased a handgun in October 2018. The controversy prompted us to request statistics from the Justice Department to determine whether someone falsely filling out the form faced much of a risk of prosecution.

It took months to obtain the data. The answer, it turns out, is no.

The statistics are newly relevant as Congress discusses how to strengthen gun laws in the wake of high-profile mass shootings. This is a prime illustration of how, for a variety of reasons including prosecutorial choices, existing laws are not always rigorously or consistently enforced.

The Facts

Staring with the National Firearms Act of 1938, Congress has sought to limit gun purchases by certain individuals such as fugitives and people convicted of a felony. After high-profile assassinations and the occupation of the California Capitol by armed Black Panthers, President Lyndon B. Johnson urged passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968, which among other things expanded the list of prohibited people to include someone who is “an unlawful user of or addicted to marijuana or any depressant or stimulant drug.”

The reason for adding drug users to the list is a bit obscure, according to experts we consulted. Johnson did not mention the issue in his speech calling for a new gun-control law or in his remarks when signing the bill. But the mid-1960s witnessed the rise of counterculture, with its abundant drug use, while marijuana at the time was often believed by law enforcement to be the drug of choice for people of color.

The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993, ushered into law by then-Sen. Joe Biden, at the time chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, made Form 4473 a key part of background checks for gun purchases mandated by the law.

Lying on the form is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison. For being a user of unlawful drugs in possession of a firearm, the punishment is up to five years.

But according to newly revealed Justice Department records, the odds of being charged for lying on this form are virtually nonexistent. In the 2019 fiscal year, when Hunter Biden purchased his gun, federal prosecutors received 478 referrals for lying on Form 4473 — and filed just 298 cases, according to data extracted from the U.S. attorneys’ case management system. That’s out of approximately 27 million background checks undertaken in a 12-month period.

The numbers were roughly similar for fiscal 2018 (444 referrals and 271 cases) and fiscal 2020 (433 referrals and 243 cases). The data does not indicate the success rate of the prosecutions.

At issue is when Biden answered “no” on the sixth question on the form when purchasing a gun Oct. 12, 2018: “Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?”

According to the U.S. code, “the term ‘addict’ means any individual who habitually uses any narcotic drug so as to endanger the public morals, health, safety, or welfare, or who is so far addicted to the use of narcotic drugs as to have lost the power of self-control with reference to his addiction.”

In a guidance document for the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), ATF has emphasized drug use within the past year could trigger the prohibition on Form 4473. “An inference of current use or possession may be drawn from evidence of a recent use or possession of a controlled substance or a pattern of use or possession that reasonably covers the present time,” the document said. “The ATF has determined that the present time is represented by the time frame of within the past 12 months.”

Biden had been discharged five years earlier from the Navy Reserve for drug use. According to a memoir published in 2021, he was actively using crack cocaine in the year he bought the gun.

In the spring of 2018, “I drove my rental to the Chateau Marmont, in West Hollywood, where I checked into a bungalow and by 4 a.m. had smoked every crumb of crack I’d brought,” Biden wrote in “Beautiful Things.” In the fall of that year, he returned east in an effort to clean up but failed so badly, he writes, that his parents staged an intervention and insisted he go to a rehab center.

Biden said he only walked into the lobby of the center and immediately called an Uber to take him to a hotel for two days. While everyone “thought I was safe and sound at the center, I sat in my room and smoked the crack I’d tucked away in my traveling bag,” he said.

About two weeks after the purchase of the gun, Biden’s then-girlfriend, Hallie, his brother’s widow, threw the .38 revolver into a trash can behind a grocery store across the street from a high school. “I think she believes I was gonna kill myself,” Biden told police, according to the police report obtained by Politico. The gun went missing but was later recovered and no charges were filed.

An attorney for Hunter Biden did not respond to a request for comment.

The data released by the Justice Department does not show how many people might have been prosecuted for falsely answering the question about active drug use. But a review of such cases in Delaware, also provided to The Fact Checker, shows that in fiscal 2019, only three Form 4473 cases were referred for prosecution in the state — and the U.S. attorney opted not to bring them.

Many of the prosecutions concerned obvious instances of “straw buyers,” such as a woman purchasing a gun while on the phone with a friend receiving instructions about what type of gun to buy. Straw buyers are often acting on behalf of people who would not pass a background check, such as a felon. Keeping guns out of the hands of people who already have committed heinous crimes is probably a higher priority than a drug abuser.

The names in the referrals were redacted for privacy reasons, but a Justice Department official said none of the referrals mentioned Hunter Biden.

A 1990 Justice Department feasibility study noted how difficult it was to bring cases against people who falsely answer questions on Form 4473. Unlike the rich paper trail that exists for felons, no such record exists for drug abusers, the study said, noting that it is against the law to disclose “the medical records of persons who have been engaged in a drug rehabilitation program funded by the federal government.”

Erik Longnecker, an ATF spokesman, said only that “the tweet is accurate.” He referred questions about the pace of prosecutions to the Justice Department.

In a statement to The Fact Checker, another Justice Department official indicated that the Form 4473 cases were determined not to have enough evidence for a successful prosecution.

“Declinations of matters referred to a U.S. attorney’s office can occur for a variety of reasons,” the statement said. “Initial declinations typically occur when the prosecutor makes an immediate determination that a matter is not sufficient or suitable for prosecution. The large majority of ‘later declinations’ — declinations where a USAO has delved into the facts and circumstances of the matter — show that suspects investigated [under false-statement statues] were declined for federal prosecution due to a lack of sufficient evidence in the matter referred.”

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Anastasis

[RomaVicta 29909]

14 hours ago, Serak The Preparer said:

As is often the case the argument is both right and wrong. The essence is that FMJ rounds are less lethal to what they hit but are more likely to penetrate the target and/or walls and hit a secondary target. Hollow points are more lethal to what they hit but less likely to hit secondary targets.

I don't know enough to make any assumptions on average accuracy, total damage done, etc., but I do get that a case could be made for either as a "safer" bullet.

If lethality is the only goal you have for the intended target, I suppose you're right. A center mass FMJ hit from a .32 pistol will drop anybody but is less lethal if I understand your description correctly. Isn't disabling whomever deserves to be shot enough? If they die they die, but need that be the absolute goal?

If someone in your home is accidentally shot by your household weapon, do you really want the weapon to maximize lethality?

Written without rancor.

[RomaVicta 29909]

12 hours ago, Grade of D as in David said:

Fucking cowards

I was at dinner with my beloved and another couple soon after this element of the story broke. My friend's wife said, "then give your guns to the mothers and let them go in." My beloved immediately agreed. They and just about all mothers would have attacked unarmed.

That's why we have police. They've taken jobs so mothers or other citizens won't have to do these things themselves.

That Uvalde PD and local government are rallying together is suspicious in the extreme. Are they trying to avoid an outside investigation that may uncover other things? Or is it just the naked cowardliness of the cops they hired?

They obviously need to go under the microscope.

[Anastasis 23473]

11 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

If lethality is the only goal you have for the intended target, I suppose you're right. A center mass FMJ hit from a .32 pistol will drop anybody but is less lethal if I understand your description correctly. Isn't disabling whomever deserves to be shot enough? If they die they die, but need that be the absolute goal?

If someone in your home is accidentally shot by your household weapon, do you really want the weapon to maximize lethality?

Written without rancor.

Roma, it has been explained to you already. 

[Serak The Preparer 3431]

2 hours ago, B00M said:

WTF indeed. CRT isn't taught in our schools, sex ed is and should be (abstinence is a fantasy), and who the fuck doesn't want history taught? C'mon man. We live in a society with a gun violence problem and more guns than people and a short course on gun safety that does not teach gun use is completely unreasonable? Edit - the course should include conflict resolution, coping skills, how to access resources to help with anxiety, depression, etc, etc. Call it a Growing up in Modern America course if you want. But its needed

@TreatyOak, but only for people of color.

[RomaVicta 29909]

13 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Roma, it has been explained to you already. 

I don't believe I need mediation.

 

[tigol 2398]

I was at dinner with my beloved and another couple soon after this element of the story broke. My friend's wife said, "then give your guns to the mothers and let them go in." My beloved immediately agreed. They and just about all mothers would have attacked unarmed.
That's why we have police. They've taken jobs so mothers or other citizens won't have to do these things themselves.
That Uvalde PD and local government are rallying together is suspicious in the extreme. Are they trying to avoid an outside investigation that may uncover other things? Or is it just the naked cowardliness of the cops they hired?
They obviously need to go under the microscope.

Were you at The Welshly Arms?

[Hookah Horns 3083]

There's one thing I'm confused about regarding the Uvalde massacre. Is Arredondo telling the truth in saying there was no way to breach the classroom door without the key? He's still culpable for not having all the keys to campus doors on him at all times, but it isn't as bad as just waiting around for the tactical gear. I have no idea if a Christmas Vacation style window breach was feasible, so that could be another error. It seems pretty dumb to make interior school doors that fucking strong. But I concede that, if the facts were that he kicked in a locked door and started shooting, I might be saying the opposite was dumb too.

[TreatyOak 16335]

1 hour ago, Serak The Preparer said:

@TreatyOak, but only for people of color.

 

[Pancho 44824]

2 minutes ago, TreatyOak said:

 

This is really dumb, and you should be ashamed you made it. 

[RomaVicta 29909]

1 hour ago, tigol said:

Were you at The Welshly Arms?

Ha! I had to look that up.

I call her my beloved because girlfriend sounds absurd for people our age. I'm also fine using this particular word because it is apt. I do love her. Best thing that ever happened to me. Twenty years together, and we still talk and laugh all the time.

[Anastasis 23473]

3 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

I don't believe I need mediation.

No, you do not.  You need remediation.

In all seriousness, the FMJ angle is dumb and you need to let it go. These are very commonly understood principles by knowledgeable gun owners. Only a total dumbass would use FMJ in a home defense situation, given the other options were available. 

If you want to really engage a debate on risk/benefit of different means of home defense, you would be better off stoking a shotgun vs. handgun home defense debate. That one has all the angles to explore. 

 

[RomaVicta 29909]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

No, you do not.  You need remediation.

In all seriousness, the FMJ angle is dumb and you need to let it go. These are very commonly understood principles by knowledgeable gun owners. Only a total dumbass would use FMJ in a home defense situation, given the other options were available. 

If you want to really engage a debate on risk/benefit of different means of home defense, you would be better off stoking a shotgun vs. handgun home defense debate. That one has all the angles to explore. 

 

I'm willing to let the FMJ angle go. I've written as much. I claim no expertise.

If "knowedgeable" gun owners have ruled my position dumb, then I suppose I must submit to the well known wisdom of that group. Not a lot of gun owners have actually responded. I think it's two, and I respect their opinions.

Of course, I'm enormously grateful to you for jumping in to explain things to my poor dumb ass.

Edited June 10, 2022 by RomaVicta

[Anastasis 23473]

14 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I'm willing to let the FMJ angle go. I've written as much. I claim no expertise.

That is obvious. 

 

[fattyflattie 4639]

6 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

If they die they die, but need that be the absolute goal?

 

According to the attorney who taught my CHL class, yes. Speaking strictly from his professional standpoint. 

[Pancho 44824]

Days since last mass shooting in America: 0

 

 

[RomaVicta 29909]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

That is obvious. 

 

[Gil Bang 25960]

 

[TreatyOak 16335]

7 hours ago, Pancho said:

This is really dumb, and you should be ashamed you made it. 

I'm so sorry you don't like it. Is this one preferable? 

 

[B00M 6416]

4 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

According to the attorney who taught my CHL class, yes. Speaking strictly from his professional standpoint. 

Intentionally only wounding someone can successfully be used against you in a modern court ... If you have to pull the trigger, it's purely because life was threatened and you had to stop the threat. Any sort of mercy or warning shot opens you to legal/financial ruin because presumably, you didn't need to take them. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by B00M

[fattyflattie 4639]

24 minutes ago, B00M said:

Intentionally only wounding someone can successfully be used against you in a modern court ... If you have to pull the trigger, it's purely because life was threatened and you had to stop the threat. Any sort of mercy or warning shot opens you to legal/financial ruin because presumably, you didn't need to take them. 

That was his feelings. If you have to use it, make sure the one perpetrating you doesn’t walk away.  
 

eta: he also instructed several of the best shooters to let a few fly on the proficiency test instead of stacking the 10 ring. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by fattyflattie

[Hmbre97 6308]

5 hours ago, TreatyOak said:

I'm so sorry you don't like it. Is this one preferable? 

 

[RomaVicta 29909]

I see I'm being Incredulity-sourced. My sorry ass will be out of here in no time. Dang.

[Bama Chick 28596]

I see I'm being Incredulity-sourced. My sorry ass will be out of here in no time. Dang.

[Bama Chick 28596]

I mean, GOTDAMN

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

19 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

I mean, GOTDAMN

Police is also a verb. As in, we expect BLM protesters to police themselves better than the actual police do. 

[TexEx15 17535]

[staboner 4974]

5 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

I mean, GOTDAMN

[Horn Dog 9871]

23 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

 

A secret service officer assigned to every school aged child and we got this problem licked!

[Longhorn_Fan68 33872]

27 minutes ago, Horn Dog said:

A secret service officer assigned to every school aged child and we got this problem licked!

you solved active shootings AND unemployment in one fell swoop!

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

Who gives a fuck what Ted Nugent says?

[TheRealRonWeaver? 1258]

Who gives a fuck what Ted Nugent says?

You realize you’re in the United States of Dipshittery, right?

[WhatTheBuck 28783]

3 minutes ago, TheRealRonWeaver? said:

You realize you’re in the United States of Dipshittery, right?

Yes, and I get enough of it as it is. I don’t need anyone pushing more of it at me saying, ‘Hey, look what this dipshit said!’

[TexEx15 17535]

We can’t let this fade into the background like so many people are waiting for just like they did after Columbine, Red Lake, Virginia Tech, Fort Hood, Aurora, Sandy Hook, Washington DC, Charleston, San Bernardino, Orlando, Las Vegas, Sutherland Springs, Parkland, Santa Fe, Pittsburgh, Thousand Oaks, Virginia Beach, El Paso, Boulder, San Jose, Buffalo, Uvalde, TBD, TBD…

As I was writing this post I decided to use Wikipedia to make sure I covered the more notorious mass shootings in my adult life. I was shocked at how many I ended up putting here as well as how many on the list that I didn’t put here that I’ve never heard of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States#2012

 

[Guest]

If this is accurate, Dems are so ridiculously soft:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/12/politics/senate-gun-safety-agreement/index.html

"Sources involved in the talks said the agreement outline includes providing funding to incentivize states to implement "red flag" laws, an expansion of mental health services by growing a 10-state pilot program for behavioral health services to all 50 states, allowing juvenile records to be searched during background checks for those under 21 years of age, and funding for school security measures. It would also change the background check system to better crack down on criminals who evade that system by using smaller "hobbyists" to illegally buy guns.

"The agreement is not expected to include a number of provisions pushed by President Joe Biden and gun control advocates, namely a renewal of the so-called assault weapons ban and raising the age to purchase semi-automatic rifles from 18 to 21."

So what exactly is the compromise? It sounds like you are simply kneeling to the gun lobby. HOW THE HELL WOULD ANY OF THIS STOPPED UVALDE? Nineteen murdered 4th graders and the best you can so is "incentivizing" states to implement red flag laws? Gee, I wonder if Texas will be incentivized to do that?

You can't even get the age raised to 21. Just absolutely shameful. Have a backbone Dems.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by FirstTimeCaller

[Guest]

Also, went to the March for Our Lives rally at the Capitol yesterday. The family of one of the students attended the rally unannounced and ended up being asked to speak. 

Jackie Cazares and her cousin Annabelle Rodriguez were best friends and also in the same class. Both were murdered by an 18 year old that was able to buy a weapon of war. Jackie's birthday was the day before the rally. She would have been 10.

I went and tried to speak to them after the rally. When I saw that it was her birthday the day before, I couldn't get out any words. All I could choke out was "thank you for coming." As a parent, I don't understand how we are letting our leaders be so soft on this. 

[Lurch 5930]

If this is accurate, Dems are so ridiculously soft:
https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/12/politics/senate-gun-safety-agreement/index.html
"Sources involved in the talks said the agreement outline includes providing funding to incentivize states to implement "red flag" laws, an expansion of mental health services by growing a 10-state pilot program for behavioral health services to all 50 states, allowing juvenile records to be searched during background checks for those under 21 years of age, and funding for school security measures. It would also change the background check system to better crack down on criminals who evade that system by using smaller "hobbyists" to illegally buy guns.

"The agreement is not expected to include a number of provisions pushed by President Joe Biden and gun control advocates, namely a renewal of the so-called assault weapons ban and raising the age to purchase semi-automatic rifles from 18 to 21."
So what exactly is the compromise? It sounds like you are simply kneeling to the gun lobby. HOW THE HELL WOULD ANY OF THIS STOPPED UVALDE? Nineteen murdered 4th graders and the best you can so is "incentivizing" states to implement red flag laws? Gee, I wonder if Texas will be incentivized to do that?
You can't even get the age raised to 21. Just absolutely shameful. Have a backbone Dems.
 
 

How? It’s not a lack of backbone, it’s a lack of VOTES. Get what you can at every opportunity and elect more Democrats next time.

[HenryJames 66078]

 

[Neonmoon 38129]

Everyone has a right to an opinion. But maybe some opinions shouldn’t be published in a nationally syndicated Newspaper. That is really dumb.