Active shooter thread

[atomheartbevo 89,449]

 

[Cheeseweasel 26,437]

15 hours ago, Lobo said:

That's the worst fucking thing I've heard all day.  The disciplinary records of an elementary school student?  

You guys been watching "Runaway Jury" and thought Alex Jones would make a good Gene Hackman?  

What.  the.  Fuck?  

Pure speculation, and egregious as fuck, but since this is a civil suit maybe they are preparing for the defense of a dollar value the prosecution is proposing?

It's horrible to think about.

[Cheeseweasel 26,437]

Yeah, so basically what @atomheartbevo just posted.

[aggie08 21,434]

Holy shit. So they're really going to try to project the value of the their lives based on kindergarten and first grade performance. Any lawyers associated with this, please do us a favor and walk off a cliff.

[David Dennison 18,660]

Well, that's what happens when you have to present evidence that mitigates damages.

[TwiceHorn 31,283]

On 8/22/2021 at 5:12 PM, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

This young man "only" killed one person and severely wounded another before killing himself, but the video that accompanies this is so sad because its apparent that his mother knew that her son was in trouble and just didn't know what to do.

https://wwmt.com/news/local/police-confirm-south-haven-pier-shooter-plotted-failed-school-shooting-in-2018


I see people on Twitter saying "he should have been locked up for the full 28 years"  when he was 15 years old.  But, if you're a judge, is that something that you want to do?  You're basically taking the best/prime years of a man's life away for a crime that was never committed. No easy answers.

People are mentally ill.  Having guns so readily available makes the mentally ill dangerous to others.  The only rational response when this is the case is to carry a gun yourself. And, unfortunately, with so many guns in the country, putting the cow back into the barn is impossible. 

That's a good post.  It's very hard for a parent, or anyone else for that matter, to know what to do with a mentally ill child or relative.  And, for better or worse, the law doesn't make it easy to put someone away, even if they have demonstrated violent tendencies.  Until they've committed a crime, at least.

Now, doing your damndest to remove their access to your guns or "family" guns is another thing altogether.  But it's still probably influenced by pollyannaish beliefs about the mental condition of the child or relative.  

[TwiceHorn 31,283]

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Well, that's what happens when you have to present evidence that mitigates damages.

Yeah, it is the nature of the beast.  I think, though, that purely from a zealous advocacy point of view, you have to be very careful trying to use that evidence lest you turn the jury against you.

Subpoenaing it, or "discovering" it doesn't mean you're going to use it at trial, necessarily.

And, to some extent, I believe that trying to sue Remington for the acts of the criminal and insane using their products is a fairly crass move in and of itself.

 

It's kind of funny how most (certainly not all) folks seem to accept that criminal defendants of even the worst stripe deserve counsel and zealous advocacy in their defense, but when the same type of thing arises in a civil context, it's disgusting again.  Granted, defense in a civil case is not a civil right as it is in a criminal case, but the same basic notions apply.

Edited September 3, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Cheeseweasel 26,437]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, it is the nature of the beast.  I think, though, that purely from a zealous advocacy point of view, you have to be very careful trying to use that evidence lest you turn the jury against you.

Subpoenaing it, or "discovering" it doesn't mean you're going to use it at trial, necessarily.

The super-cynic in me thinks they are just pumping billing hours...

[Gap03 3,287]

21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

And, to some extent, I believe that trying to sue Remington for the acts of the criminal and insane using their products is a fairly crass move in and of itself.

Counterpoint:

Pushing this shit on forums where they know there are a bunch of fucking angry incels has to have some consequences at some point.   

[WhatTheBuck 28,713]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

Well, that's what happens when you have to present evidence that mitigates damages.

‘They were never going to amount to anything, anyway.’

[TheStoicPaisano 9,904]

2 hours ago, Lobo said:

If I'm Sandy Hook administrators, I'd comply and give them the report cards and attendance records up until whatever grade they were in December of 2012.  Then I'd staple a blank copy of their report card and attendance record for every single victim for the last 9 years.  I think it would be very powerful for a judge and jury to see, on paper, the years stolen from small children.

Jane Smith 

2011-12:  Missed 5 days (family vacation and flu).  3 A's, 2 B's, 1 C

2012-13:  Missed 103 days (shooting death).  4 A's, 2 C's (first semester only)

2013-14:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted. 

2014-15:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted.

2015-16:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted.

2016-17:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted.

2017-18:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted.  

2018-19:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted.

2019-20:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted. 

2020-21:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted.

Then do it for the rest of the kids.  Remington will obviously not like the gesture, but you could just shrug your shoulders and say, "We keep very thorough records of anyone under 18 in our district, especially when they haven't shown up to school in some time.  Whoops."  

DNP - Deceased

[David Dennison 18,660]

8 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

‘They were never going to amount to anything, anyway.’

Calculating damages based on future earnings in wrongful death cases is one of the more unsettling aspects of civil jurisprudence.

 

[Macanudo 12,928]

3 hours ago, Lobo said:

If I'm Sandy Hook administrators, I'd comply and give them the report cards and attendance records up until whatever grade they were in December of 2012.  Then I'd staple a blank copy of their report card and attendance record for every single victim for the last 9 years.  I think it would be very powerful for a judge and jury to see, on paper, the years stolen from small children.

Jane Smith 

2011-12:  Missed 5 days (family vacation and flu).  3 A's, 2 B's, 1 C

2012-13:  Missed 103 days (shooting death).  4 A's, 2 C's (first semester only)

2013-14:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted. 

2014-15:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted.

2015-16:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted.

2016-17:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted.

2017-18:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted.  

2018-19:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted.

2019-20:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted. 

2020-21:  Missed 186 days (shooting death).  No grades submitted.

Then do it for the rest of the kids.  Remington will obviously not like the gesture, but you could just shrug your shoulders and say, "We keep very thorough records of anyone under 18 in our district, especially when they haven't shown up to school in some time.  Whoops."  

Seeing the news story this morning was horrific but sending a response like Lobo suggests is completely what the parent's lawyers should do.   And finish off the report with "And in conclusion, Remington and their lawyers can go fuck themselves."

[RomaVicta 29,794]

17 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Wasn't sure what thread to stick this in.  Whoever is counsel for Remington in this matter needs to get fucked.

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

“In mid-July, the defense served a subpoena on the Newton Public School District seeking: ‘Any and all educational records in your possession including but not limited to, application and admission paperwork, attendance records, transcripts, report cards, disciplinary records, correspondence and any and all other educational information and records pertaining to’ each of the five first-graders whose Estates are plaintiffs in this case,” according to the motion filed today that sought to protect the victims’ families from further subpoenas. “There is no conceivable way that these [records] will assist Remington in its defense, and the plaintiffs do not understand why Remington would invade the families’ privacy with such a request. Nonetheless, this personal and private information has been produced to Remington.”

In addition, Remington subpoenaed employment records of four teachers who were killed in the shooting, in which a total of 20 children and six adults died. Some of the parents of the Sandy Hook victims have been suing the weapons manufacturer since 2014, alleging that the gun manufacturer advertised its line of semi-automatic weapons to civilians. Remington previously responded to a discovery request for its internal company communications by producing more than 18,000 unsorted files containing memes, cartoons, and ice bucket challenge videos.

"We have no explanation for why Remington subpoenaed the Newtown Public School District to obtain the kindergarten and first grade academic, attendance and disciplinary records of these five school children,” Josh Koskoff, one of the lawyers representing the Sandy Hook parents, told Motherboard. “The records cannot possibly excuse Remington’s egregious marketing conduct, or be of any assistance in estimating the catastrophic damages in this case. The only relevant part of their attendance records is that they were at their desks on December 14, 2012.”

Remington’s lawyers did not immediately return Motherboard’s request for comment.

 

If it was just some retarded kids, are their lives really worth more than a few hundred dollars? Plus, they didn't have an ordinary child's cognitive ability to effectively flee, so it's kind of their fault that their dead.

Same goes for average students, if you think about it. What are they ever going to do for us? We'll go a thousand a head. Don't forget that this also about freedom!

Isn't there a hole we can throw the Sandy Hook doubters in? An inescapable one? Maybe keep bull dozers rumbling around so they're never sure if they'll be buried alive. That's a fair equivalency of what it must be to learn your child was gunned down at school today.

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, I wrote it half sarcastically and as a cathartic way of lowering my rage after reading that news story.  But the more I think about it, I think if you just non-chalantly attach the blank attendance reports/grade reports to the K and/or 1st grade reports and just have them blank but for the school year and corresponding grade...I don't see how a judge would have any issue with that.  I get that there's always the grieving widow or parent who tries to express to a jury how much life their loved one had yet to live before they were unjustly taken and you gotta put a dollar amount to that narrative.  And it's almost impossible with such a young child to express that in dollars...you can try to paint a picture of the life they could have had.  But I would think flipping through 10 or 11 blank years of school transcripts for one dead kid after another for an hour would be pretty compelling.  As if to say, "We can't paint a picture of what their future earning power could be because there's no data.  Here, see for yourself."  

Just tell them "the way the school's reporting filter works, we entered the kids birthday and then it goes from today's date back to their Kindergarten year.  Most of them would be Seniors this year, so the report generated all docs for K-12.  Whoops."  

If one of y'all has a large following on Twitter or facebook, chop off my username and shit, and post this idea and see if it has legs.  I think it could be the most passive-aggressive fuck you in modern firearms litigation.  

We've got 500 lawyers on here.  Play six degrees of bacon on linkedin, odds are one of y'all went to law school with one of the plaintiffs attorneys, or practiced at a big firm with them back in your associate days.  Give 'em this idea if they haven't already thought of it.  If they end up using it though, tell them to tell Remington...it was Lobo.  I want them to know it was me /oleannatyrell 

[lemonlime 5,503]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, it is the nature of the beast.  I think, though, that purely from a zealous advocacy point of view, you have to be very careful trying to use that evidence lest you turn the jury against you.

Subpoenaing it, or "discovering" it doesn't mean you're going to use it at trial, necessarily.

 

This.  It was a bonehead move to ever subpoena those records.  There's little of substance that could be obtained and if you used those records at trial you would just inflame the jury anyway.

I've done quite a bit of civil defense work, and I've obtained similar records on occasion.  But in, for example, a case with a badly injured 17-year-old, who claims he would have gone to med school and made hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.  Not as to a first grader killed in circumstances that made international news.

[David Dennison 18,660]

5 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

This.  It was a bonehead move to ever subpoena those records.  There's little of substance that could be obtained and if you used those records at trial you would just inflame the jury anyway.

I've done quite a bit of civil defense work, and I've obtained similar records on occasion.  But in, for example, a case with a badly injured 17-year-old, who claims he would have gone to med school and made hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.  Not as to a first grader killed in circumstances that made international news.

The optics are just awful, and rightfully so.

[Willfully Horn 7,916]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

And, to some extent, I believe that trying to sue Remington for the acts of the criminal and insane using their products is a fairly crass move in and of itself.

Wait until blue states allow nutbars to sue any and all folks who had a hand in enabling any shooting. Texas abortion lunacy, but with shootings.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Willfully Horn
Edit

[4th&Five 41,461]

20 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Wait until blue states allow nutbars to sue any and all folks who had a hand in enabling any shooting. Texas abortion lunacy, but with shootings.

[Fudge Nuggets 19,151]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

And, to some extent, I believe that trying to sue Remington for the acts of the criminal and insane using their products is a fairly crass move in and of itself.

Well until this country pulls its head out of its ass and does something about gun violence, what other recourse is there?

[SKJ 1,305]

12 hours ago, Willfully Horn said:

Wait until blue states allow nutbars to sue any and all folks who had a hand in enabling any shooting. Texas abortion lunacy, but with shootings.

But we should completely protect fetuses!

I mean,  not after they're born, but only pre-partum

[JimmyJames 12,271]

On 9/3/2021 at 11:47 AM, David Dennison said:

The optics are just awful, and rightfully so.

All it is is dumbass lawyers doing dumbass shit and billing time. It’s horrendous but they know not what they do. Which doesn’t make it any better of course.

Edited September 5, 2021 by JimmyJames

[4th&Five 41,461]

Shot some kids, had a meth fueled shootout with the cops, surrendered but then tried to take a cops gun and he’s still alive. I wonder if he’s white?

Edited September 5, 2021 by 4th&Five

[Guest Lobo]

Too soon to discuss it, will obviously hamper hunting season if we engage in a dialogue.  

[4th&Five 41,461]

 

[Brisketexan 104,628]

Just now, 4th&Five said:

 

Don't rush to judgment.  This could just be a former HEB shopper transplanted to Tennessee who realizes that his grocery options SUCK.

[Satchel 6,908]

11 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

16 year old shot to death in a drive by while waiting on the school bus yesterday in Louisville, and now this. I guess we’ll have to continue to the endure the inconvenience of being shot to death until we decide to value people more than guns.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,843]

10 minutes ago, Satchel said:

16 year old shot to death in a drive by while waiting on the school bus yesterday in Louisville, and now this. I guess we’ll have to continue to the endure the inconvenience of being shot to death until we decide to value people more than guns.

don't you see? guns are the answer for everything 🙄

[4th&Five 41,461]

 

[Lurch 5,921]

[Biff Tannen 45,499]

Good job 'Merica.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33,843]

if it ain't a white guy I'll be beyond shocked

[StassneyHorn 6,540]

It’s the Memphis burbs, so yea I’ll lay $20 on it being a white guy

Edited September 23, 2021 by StassneyHorn

[hookemATL 11,611]

31 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Don't rush to judgment.  This could just be a former HEB shopper transplanted to Tennessee who realizes that his grocery options SUCK.

I said this exact thing to my wife when she mentioned it. GET OUT OF MY HEAD, BRISKET!!!

[Brisketexan 104,628]

Just now, hookemATL said:

I said this exact thing to my wife when she mentioned it. GET OUT OF MY HEAD, BRISKET!!!

Sorry.  I got in there and looked around.  By the way, that stuff you were thinking about doing with your wife.....

[Js1 85,110]

The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is by making sure the guns are armed too. 

[hookemATL 11,611]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sorry.  I got in there and looked around.  By the way, that stuff you were thinking about doing with your wife.....

Livestock and blackberry jam isn’t everyone’s idea of a hot time, but it keeps things humming in the bedroom. 
 

anyway…tragedy/guns bad/freedom/‘Murica/etc

[hookemATL 11,611]

1 minute ago, Js1 said:

The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is by making sure the guns are armed too. 

My Guns Have Guns is Toby Keith’s best album IMHO

[Brisketexan 104,628]

1 minute ago, hookemATL said:

Livestock and blackberry jam isn’t everyone’s idea of a hot time, but it keeps things humming in the bedroom. 
 

anyway…tragedy/guns bad/freedom/‘Murica/etc

Wait....that was BLACKberry jam?  Nevermind the fist bump.  Sicko.

[Willfully Horn 7,916]

Marmite isn’t for everyone.

[Satchel 6,908]

It’s folly to believe that with over 300 million guns in the country, people aren’t going to find creative ways to use them:

Philadelphia police released video of incident at Chipotle location on Saturday 

Video shows woman pull a gun on cashier just before 5pm as she waited to order

She pulled gun after being told that restaurant was closing due to staffing issues

Customers who waited were asked to put in their orders through the internet 

That's when police say armed woman flashed gun and demanded her food 

‘Somebody better give me my food,' armed woman is alleged to have said

The cashier immediately pressed the security button to alert the mall security, but the customer threatened "if someone doesn’t make her food she will be back and there will be a problem," police said.

The woman put the firearm back in her purse and another employee decided to fill her order in an effort to get her to leave, according to authorities.

 

Police said she gave her order and brandished the firearm again, demanding: "Somebody better give me my food."

Once the order was filled, police said the woman took the food and left the restaurant in an unknown direction. 

Anyone with information is asked to contact investigators at 215-868-8477 

[Hate 20,103]

I’d better watch my guns extra careful tonight to make sure they do t decide to shoot anyone…just kidding. I don’t have any…allegedly.

[OneOfTheOutOfFocusGuys 2,059]

7 hours ago, Satchel said:

It’s folly to believe that with over 300 million guns in the country, people aren’t going to find creative ways to use them:

Philadelphia police released video of incident at Chipotle location on Saturday 

Video shows woman pull a gun on cashier just before 5pm as she waited to order

She pulled gun after being told that restaurant was closing due to staffing issues

Customers who waited were asked to put in their orders through the internet 

That's when police say armed woman flashed gun and demanded her food 

‘Somebody better give me my food,' armed woman is alleged to have said

The cashier immediately pressed the security button to alert the mall security, but the customer threatened "if someone doesn’t make her food she will be back and there will be a problem," police said.

The woman put the firearm back in her purse and another employee decided to fill her order in an effort to get her to leave, according to authorities.

 

Police said she gave her order and brandished the firearm again, demanding: "Somebody better give me my food."

Once the order was filled, police said the woman took the food and left the restaurant in an unknown direction. 

Anyone with information is asked to contact investigators at 215-868-8477 

Did this happen at a Whammyburger?

[Nivek 16,861]

He was planning to murder children, taking away the best years of their lives. At that point, why is his future regarded at all? I’m sure the judge gets great sleep knowing his slap on the wrist led to murder victims. 

Objecting to try a kid as an adult is not wrong. The problem is in the second phase where the kid should have had supervised medical intervention which might include removal from his household into a state run facility and/or juvenile detention.

[Nivek 16,861]

And, to some extent, I believe that trying to sue Remington for the acts of the criminal and insane using their products is a fairly crass move in and of itself.

Why? Do they not advocate and find lobbying groups that help write laws which allow for very few limitations on access to firearms?

[atomheartbevo 89,449]

So this happened in Houston.

 

[Guest Lobo]

Yes, but even questioning the former student for motive and weapons access...that would violate my ability to hunt later this Fall.  

[Satchel 6,908]

There’ll be more shootings before the week is finished. It’s how we roll in America. Guns Uber Alles.

[brakeman 28,253]

Holy shit.

Edited October 6, 2021 by brakeman
Those poor kids, c'mon Texas.

[Native Horn 3,492]

Jesus.  I'm sure the students enjoyed being paraded through broken glass and blood on the floor.  Insanity.