Active shooter thread

[bad_teammate 13125]

7 minutes ago, Gladeite said:

It is imperative that our children are safe and secure.  Since we are not going to get rid of guns and can't seem to profile troubled youths who may mean harm to others,(even though there are plenty of warning signs), I see the only answer as harder perimeters.  

The "let's turn our schools into prisons" crowd is distressingly large.

[ChickenSandwich 9797]

HG:

 

Armed burglary of home in Houston. Home invasion in Victoria. Thank god for guns. Anecdotal yes, but if you have been through or know someone who has there won’t ever be a legal consequence that out weighs family security. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, Bookman said:

Do you have any authority for this? I graduated from high school 25 years ago and I can't recall ever hearing about any school children being murdered in school.

Yes.  The link I posted a post or two ago.  It has the stats.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The "let's turn our schools into prisons" crowd is distressingly large.

That’s dumb too.  Let school employees carry if they pass the background check and want to carry.  Don’t have schools with one uniformed cop that all the shooter has to do is walk up to and pop without warning.  

[henrygandorf 29174]

3 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

HG:

 

Armed burglary of home in Houston. Home invasion in Victoria. Thank god for guns. Anecdotal yes, but if you have been through or know someone who has there won’t ever be a legal consequence that out weighs family security. 

a friend of mine woke up to someone burglarizing his home in laguna.  they both had guns, and my buddy killed the dude.  i'm sure he's glad he had a gun.  doesn't make any of it ok.

when the "most logical" answer is to turn schools into prisons or have teachers carrying guns, then the system is fucked.

[GSU&UT 1798]

13 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The "let's turn our schools into prisons" crowd is distressingly large.

Ugh, this is a legit thing and so many of the conservative posters here wouldn't understand it let alone even acknowledge institutionalized racism.

[bad_teammate 13125]

Phrases like "harden the perimeter" are just more roleplay fantasy for doughy, feckless men who never stopped playing war.

[Zepol87 9163]

Phrases like "harden the perimeter" are just more roleplay fantasy for doughy, feckless men who never stopped playing war.

Bring extra batteries for the radios sarg

[Johnny Sack 8397]

11 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

Ugh, this is a legit thing and so many of the conservative posters here wouldn't understand it let alone even acknowledge institutionalized racism.

You fuckers see racism around every corner.  

[GSU&UT 1798]

8 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

You fuckers see racism around every corner.  

Think Stanford Prison Experiment where you set a school up to look more like a prison and people start acting like it is.

[fattyflattie 4636]

Gladeite, very good post.    I personally want 1) for us to fix the existing laws we have (South Tx Church shooter)   2) make it more difficult (not impossible) to obtain firearms legally.  3) put common sense obstructions into schools, making it at least somewhat of a deterrent. Not talking making them into prisons, but there are things that can be done.  4) remove shit like bump stocks etc.    I’m torn on high capacity mags. I don’t need them, but what’s the right answer?  Pistols often “need” 10 to be a more effective self defense weapon. 

This is coming from someone who purchases between 1-3 rifles/shotguns a year (All bolt action hunting types). I also have 3 under 7 so these shootings/drills/fear hit close to home. 

ETA: 1, 3, and 4 can happen easily no matter what political party has power. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by fattyflattie

[henrygandorf 29174]

comey had a nice response re: arming teachers on the cnn town hall just now.

i'm sure it'll end up on twitter or someplace.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

6 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

comey had a nice response re: arming teachers on the cnn town hall just now.

i'm sure it'll end up on twitter or someplace.

Arming teachers is a horrible idea.  Laws that disarm school employees who have passed the requisite FBI background check and want to conceal carry at school are an equally horrible idea. 

19 percent of our Texas districts don’t disarm CCL holders at schools.  And have for years.  That is the right move.  

Edited May 10, 2019 by Johnny Sack

[Johnny Sack 8397]

I don’t think metal detectors or hardening schools is a good idea.  Won’t work.  Creates a queue of  targets for shooters.  Feel the same about metal detectors at pro sport events.  Fucking lines of a thousand people just standing there. 

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

I don’t think metal detectors or hardening schools is a good idea.  Won’t work.  Creates a queue of  targets for shooters.  Feel the same about metal detectors at pro sport events.  Fucking lines of a thousand people just standing there. 

My impression (and I could be waaaaay off) is that courthouses are generally safe places, especially for the amount of criminals that frequent them.   Surely there can be some ideas taken from them, along with airports etc.  This is a large problem that will take many small fixes to fix, IMO.  I think there has to be some things they can do to help?  

[henrygandorf 29174]

since everyone is so dead set on owning a gun for home protection, maybe guns shouldn't be allowed out of your home.

why do i know more than 3 people who keep a handgun in their car?  in what possible scenario does that story end happily?

[Guest]

People might park better...

 

Next?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

24 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

since everyone is so dead set on owning a gun for home protection, maybe guns shouldn't be allowed out of your home.

why do i know more than 3 people who keep a handgun in their car?  in what possible scenario does that story end happily?

The murder rate in the state of Texas is less than half what it was when the law allowing CHL was passed.  So were you like twice as scared back in the early 90s was when your odds of getting murdered in this state were double?  

[bad_teammate 13125]

Phrases like "common sense <whatever>" are what politicians do when they don't want to actually say anything specific. 

[henrygandorf 29174]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

The murder rate in the state of Texas is less than half what it was when the law allowing CHL was passed.  So were you like twice as scared back in the early 90s was when your odds of getting murdered in this state were double?  

i'm not scared at all and don't live in texas anyway.

[fattyflattie 4636]

46 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

since everyone is so dead set on owning a gun for home protection, maybe guns shouldn't be allowed out of your home.

why do i know more than 3 people who keep a handgun in their car?  in what possible scenario does that story end happily?

So you’ve covered one reason for gun ownership. Now you have hunting, shooting for sport, etc.  People travel too. I can understand the want to be armed while traveling long distance or into a shady area.      

Since you don’t seem to own firearms or see any value in it, I doubt you hunt.  Before you say wgaf about hunting, there are species that need to be thinned or they eat themselves out of life (snow geese). Also, a metric fuck ton of money raised by licenses pays for all sorts of parks, land buy back programs, etc.    I guess you can still do that if everyone bow hunted, but it would only be a year before some deranged fuck brought one to school and now no one can have bows anymore. 

[henrygandorf 29174]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

So you’ve covered one reason for gun ownership. Now you have hunting, shooting for sport, etc.  People travel too. I can understand the want to be armed while traveling long distance or into a shady area.      

Since you don’t seem to own firearms or see any value in it, I doubt you hunt.  Before you say wgaf about hunting, there are species that need to be thinned or they eat themselves out of life (snow geese). Also, a metric fuck ton of money raised by licenses pays for all sorts of parks, land buy back programs, etc.    I guess you can still do that if everyone bow hunted, but it would only be a year before some deranged fuck brought one to school and now no one can have bows anymore. 

i've already stated more than once that i'm not a good candidate for, nor do i intend to engage in a rational discussion about guns and gun ownership.  i'm not going to be a troll, as that's not my style, but i'll happily play along with the conversation in good faith.

when i asked about people needing guns in general, i was told that people needed them for home invasions.  my specific response was to that.

as for travel, give me a fucking break.

as far as hunting/sports - people used to get shot out of canons, bare-knuckle boxed, and played football with leather helmets.  now people are smarter, and living longer.  it's ok to evolve as a species.  and apologies in advance to the snow geese, but school children > snow geese.

wake me when the bow crisis begins.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

2 hours ago, Gladeite said:

I don't think gun laws are going to make a difference.  I am a gun owner, hunter, travel a lot, and have quite a bit of security experience.  This is a human problem.  Human beings are doing this all over the world.  In the U.S., we have round the clock news coverage and instant information via the internet.  These same types of killings or worse are happening frequently in Russia, China, India, Brazil and especially Africa, where the human life is pretty damn inexpensive.   It just does not dominate the news cycle in other parts of the world like it does here.

 I have AR type rifles and shoot them occasionally. .  If they were banned tomorrow, I would not care in the least.  They are not necessary for any type of shooting, but there are millions of them in the U.S. that are safely carried or stored every day without anyone being in mortal danger.  I am guessing, but less than 5 are used each year in a mass type killing here.  5 is too many, but I'm not sure gun control is the answer.  In a small country, yes it can be done.  In a country of 350 million, impossible.   A gun ban is not going to happen.  Gun control is trying to work and failing miserably.  There are just too many guns too many millions of rounds of ammo, and supplies from all over the world.   As a small example, semi-auto weapons are banned in many countries in Africa.  It is quite easy to by an AK-47 for $25 in a major city.  There are thousands of them laying around from internal and regional struggles.  China stamps them out of metal plate for a few dollars each.(As a side note, the natives prefer the .303 from World War I.  Bolt action, uses less ammo and more accurate.) 

It is a fact that schools are a soft target.  Easy to penetrate, not much resistance and multiple targets.   Comparing them to Fort Hood is silly.  Any military installation is a hard target from the exterior.   No idiot is going to be able to storm a military base and carry out a mass killing in the U.S.   Hasan was in the military and killed within a no firearms zone.  It was an attack from within and is an exception in the world of mass shootings. 

You can make it difficult to enter schools by limiting access, metal detectors, early warning sentries and other hard measures. It is expensive but the only realistic possibility.  Another way is to profile every white male, 14-20 years old, from a broken home, socially awkward, wears black clothes and spends an excessive amount of time playing first person shooter games.  This is not realistic, possible, lawful or worthy of discussion.   

Having a security guard on site does not guarantee safety.  How well is he trained?  How will he respond to the 0.0007% chance that there will be a violent encounter?  Will he panic?

It is imperative that our children are safe and secure.  Since we are not going to get rid of guns and can't seem to profile troubled youths who may mean harm to others,(even though there are plenty of warning signs), I see the only answer as harder perimeters.  

 

What about tanks?

[fattyflattie 4636]

Fair enough. Neither of us will convince each other, wasn’t really my intent anyhow. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

[Judge Roybeanbag 11796]

What’s Tiger Woods doing at a protest?

[Enchubben 5509]

6 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Because they do far more harm than good. They are extremely dangerous and serve little-to-no practical purpose. We have, collectively, shown a complete inability to responsibly manufacture, sell, use, own, and store them. The results of this are piles of dead kids and entire generations of Americans who think being murdered by angry boys in English class is a somewhat normal and expected possibility.

There are other reasons, too, but those are good enough to start.

Now do alcohol. It kills way more than guns and arguably serves less of a purpose.

[Junior Miller 1502]

Just put massssssssive taxes on bullets and ammo and the raw materials to make them. Make people only buy a few bullets and sit on them until an emergency happens. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Enchubben said:

Now do alcohol. It kills way more than guns and arguably serves less of a purpose.

just outlaw it.

Alcohol will magically disappear...especially from the hands of the crooks of the world.

[Bookman 4610]

10 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Yes.  The link I posted a post or two ago.  It has the stats.  

None of those has to do with schools, but you already know that.

[Bookman 4610]

8 hours ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

What’s Tiger Woods doing at a protest?

Probably trying to get laid.

[bad_teammate 13125]

8 hours ago, Enchubben said:

Now do alcohol. It kills way more than guns and arguably serves less of a purpose.

"I can't make an argument, so... let me bring up something completely unrelated!"

Start an alcohol thread, I'll jump in happily.

9 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

So you’ve covered one reason for gun ownership. Now you have hunting, shooting for sport, etc.  People travel too. I can understand the want to be armed while traveling long distance or into a shady area.      

Since you don’t seem to own firearms or see any value in it, I doubt you hunt.  Before you say wgaf about hunting, there are species that need to be thinned or they eat themselves out of life (snow geese). Also, a metric fuck ton of money raised by licenses pays for all sorts of parks, land buy back programs, etc.    I guess you can still do that if everyone bow hunted, but it would only be a year before some deranged fuck brought one to school and now no one can have bows anymore. 

Is there a reasonable use for a gun that requires semi-automatic capabilities or a length less than 26"?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, Bookman said:

None of those has to do with schools, but you already know that.

The link I posted.  Not the graphs.  Is an article.  Don’t be a dumbass. 

https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/02/26/schools-are-still-one-of-the-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/

Edited May 10, 2019 by Johnny Sack

[Gladeite 375]

The above article  is well written and has interesting data, perspective and suggestions.

It is a human being problem.  Controlling/limiting guns is not the answer to this rare occurrence.  Identifying/helping disaffected young men in this country can help lower the rate of violence.

I am of the belief that in this population of 350 million, we are going to have a certain number of mass killings each year, at least one of which will be at a school.  My children are grown and own their own.  However, my oldest daughter(no pic) is a high school history teacher at a large campus with a high percentage of underperforming and disenchanted young men.  I have spent time with her principal and fellow teachers to discuss safety measures.  The school has 2 resource officers and one central entranceway.   One officer is outside and monitors the parking lots, walkways and entrance to the campus.  He is the early warning if a gun/case is spotted.  The second officer is inside the doors monitoring the entrance.  He has the ability to electronically lock the front door if he sees/communicated to that there is trouble coming.  In my daughters room, there is a blackout shade that can be pulled over the window, and when the door is closed, it is locked.  We have worked on fields of fire and where in the room she and her students can be safe from fire thru the windows.  The teacher across the hall is a relatively young male that has a CHL and carries daily.  A super ninja could probably find a way in and shoot up the school, but the average idiot will not be able to.

 

[bad_teammate 13125]

33 minutes ago, Gladeite said:

I am of the belief that in this population of 350 million, we are going to have a certain number of mass killings each year, at least one of which will be at a school.  

It's not about belief or feelings, it's about basic statistics.

School shootings from 2009-2018

US: 288
Mexico: 8
South Africa: 6
India: 5
Canada: 2
France: 2
Germany: 1
Spain, Australia, Switzerland, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, Argentina, UK: 0

Quote

 Identifying/helping disaffected young men in this country can help lower the rate of violence.

How? If you sincerely believe this is necessary, which you very likely don't, what do you propose?

- Do you want to pay for a living wage jobs guarantee so all young men know they have a profitable future regardless of their fitness and abilities?

- Do you want to have the state assign friends and girlfriends to unstable, mentally unwell young men?

- Do you want free, universal mental healthcare for all Americans?

- Do you want the government to crack down on image boards like 4chan and 8chan and all the other sites and services that allow these young men to amp each other up?

- Do you want the government to restrict violence on television, streaming services, and YouTube? Video games?

What do you propose?

[HRSchenker 2257]

24 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It's not about belief or feelings, it's about basic statistics.

School shootings from 2009-2018

US: 288
Mexico: 8
South Africa: 6
India: 5
Canada: 2
France: 2
Germany: 1
Spain, Australia, Switzerland, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, Argentina, UK: 0

Hard to take those numbers seriously when they're based on manipulated data. A man wants to buy drugs from someone so they meet in the parking lot of a nearby school. The drug deal goes bad and the buyer gets shot. That is considered a "school shooting". Give me a break.

[bad_teammate 13125]

What do you think the real numbers are more like?

 

[Gladeite 375]

The CNN article takes a position, then crafts the data to support the position.  Sound familiar?  

Of the 288, the vast majority of these are one on one, essentially murder over territory, affiliation, affection, drugs, what have you.  These are young adults acting violently.  This study also left out large countries such as Russia, China, Brazil, and smaller South American and African countries that have much higher rates of violence.

I personally hate statistics since they are crafted by human beings that are predisposed to a position and get a reward for having the greatest number of people agreeing with that position.

The bottom line is that there are too many mass shootings at our schools.  A job guarantee is wrong.  Technical schools and learning a trade outside of college is a step in the right direction.  Our government has a hard time with the most basic of coverages: I don't see match making as a step in the right direction.  I would be all for a restriction on video games, pornography, violence on TV for our young people.  The brain is developing until the early 20s.  Smoking, drinking, sex addictions typically start during the brain development stage.  

Personally, I am for:

Hardened schools.  Electronic locks, armed teachers, entry sentries, etc...  A  predator is not going to attack a school in the U.S. if they think they will be killed in the process.

Technical schools to gain the attention of young people that does not involve the challenging/unlikely prospect of college.  It is an argument for another day, but college is a waste of time/money and unaffordable for a large percentage of our population.  

Restrict first person shooter/violent games to 18+.  Send all pornography to a restricted domains that require age verification to view.   Make the minimum age for smoking to be 21.  Legalize marijuana nationwide for the 21+ group.  

 

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

3 minutes ago, Gladeite said:

I personally hate statistics

 

[bad_teammate 13125]

48 minutes ago, Gladeite said:

Personally, I am for:

Hardened schools.  Electronic locks, armed teachers, entry sentries, etc...  A  predator is not going to attack a school in the U.S. if they think they will be killed in the process.

Technical schools to gain the attention of young people that does not involve the challenging/unlikely prospect of college.  It is an argument for another day, but college is a waste of time/money and unaffordable for a large percentage of our population.  

Restrict first person shooter/violent games to 18+.  Send all pornography to a restricted domains that require age verification to view.   Make the minimum age for smoking to be 21.  Legalize marijuana nationwide for the 21+ group.  

1) What is an "entry sentry"? Who trains the teachers? Do parents get a say in this?

2) The skills gap is a myth.

3) What do smoking and marijuana have to do with this?

[ChickenSandwich 9797]

5 hours ago, slorch said:

just outlaw it.

Alcohol will magically disappear...especially from the hands of the crooks of the world.

Great. Another profit stream for cartels to add to their drugs coming across the border. 

[Gladeite 375]

14 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

1) What is an "entry sentry"? Who trains the teachers? Do parents get a say in this?

2) The skills gap is a myth.

3) What do smoking and marijuana have to do with this?

A person who can spot/identify a threat approaching a campus.  Does not have to be a SRO/security.  Teachers, maintenance workers, bus drivers, anyone can have a radio and communicate to administration.  A 5A district near me just purchased a $130,000 radio system that connects administration with fire/police, teachers, maintenance workers and bus drivers so communication is easy across the system.  This makes sure a person can't get dropped off by Uber with a rifle case, walk up to the school and gain entry without someone noticing.  Same thing with taking guns from vehicle and walking across the parking lot.  The point is to have a perimeter early warning system with effective communication.  There are private companies that train teachers every day.  School districts hire these companies and they set up training days.  They implement lock down procedures, active shooter training drills, force on force training, handgun safety, retention and use, etc...  Parents should have a say in all this.  It is their children at risk.  Come up with a plan that they think works.  

The internet is full of articles that support just about any position you can think of.  As a large business owner, father of two children in the workforce, security hobbyist and generally interested in the future, it is my opinion that there is a percentage of young males that do not see bright future, limited opportunities and have general apathy towards tomorrow.  I would like to see training alternatives that gives them a sense of hope and optimism about the future.

Absolutely nothing.  I started typing about personal preferences and got carried away.  

[henrygandorf 29174]

1 hour ago, Gladeite said:

Personally, I am for:

Hardened schools.  Electronic locks, armed teachers, entry sentries, etc...  A  predator is not going to attack a school in the U.S. if they think they will be killed in the process.

aren't most of these attacks planned with the assumption that the shooter will off himself at the end, or at the very least commit suicide by cop?  not just talking about schools, just active shooter incidents in general.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Yeah that line about a mass shooter won’t act if they will end up dead is laughable.

[bad_teammate 13125]

1 hour ago, Gladeite said:

A person who can spot/identify a threat approaching a campus.  Does not have to be a SRO/security.  Teachers, maintenance workers, bus drivers, anyone can have a radio and communicate to administration.  A 5A district near me just purchased a $130,000 radio system that connects administration with fire/police, teachers, maintenance workers and bus drivers so communication is easy across the system.  This makes sure a person can't get dropped off by Uber with a rifle case, walk up to the school and gain entry without someone noticing.  Same thing with taking guns from vehicle and walking across the parking lot.  The point is to have a perimeter early warning system with effective communication.  There are private companies that train teachers every day.  School districts hire these companies and they set up training days.  They implement lock down procedures, active shooter training drills, force on force training, handgun safety, retention and use, etc...  Parents should have a say in all this.  It is their children at risk.  Come up with a plan that they think works.  

The internet is full of articles that support just about any position you can think of.  As a large business owner, father of two children in the workforce, security hobbyist and generally interested in the future, it is my opinion that there is a percentage of young males that do not see bright future, limited opportunities and have general apathy towards tomorrow.  I would like to see training alternatives that gives them a sense of hope and optimism about the future.

Absolutely nothing.  I started typing about personal preferences and got carried away.  

It should be instructive to you that when you are asked to think of ways to militarize schools or turn them into child prisons, you can wax poetic for hours. Yet, when asked about how to actually improve the lives of human beings, you say inane vague bullshit like "training alternatives that gives them a sense of hope and optimism about the future".

You don't care about these people, you care about your male fantasy.

[henrygandorf 29174]

the gymnastics (not to mention the cost) involved in bending in such a way to invent these jobs so people can be posted somewhere near a school (or at the school?), considering there are what, 150,000 schools you would need to monitor?  nbd.

and arming teachers, training school security, etc.  so what happens when someone tries to execute a school shooting, and before he gets a shot off, he is killed by one of these sentries?  will that mark the end of school shootings as we know it?  does foiling a shoe bomb at an airport make it more or less likely that there will ever be another terrorist attack involving air travel?

and what happens when one of these sentries/armed math teachers is slightly out of position when the shooter arrives?  if duck hunt has taught me anything, it's that i can probably get a number of shots off at innocent 5th graders before they get to me.  and once they do, what are the odds that this "trained" newly armed stopgap shoots me without endangering the dozens of children that are near me? 

if my kid was killed in a "friendly fire" incident like that i would lose my fucking mind.  i'm also guessing insurance for these sentries is all baked into the cost?  since someone is going to have to back up a brinks truck to my house the day after it happens.

all this so that people feel safe on the off chance of a home invasion or really really like to shoot [overpopulated] animals.  seems reasonable.

[Gil Bang 25865]

not a shooter, but a nut just set off an IED outside a Denny's in Fullerton CA.  The only injury was to the bomber himself. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Gil Bang

[henrygandorf 29174]

Just now, Gil Bang said:

not a shooter, but I nut just set off an IED outside a Denny's in Fullerton CA.  The only injury was to the bomber himself. 

#naturalselection

[Fondren & Main 6658]

12 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

not a shooter, but a nut just set off an IED outside a Denny's in Fullerton CA.  The only injury was to the bomber himself. 

Take it to the active bomber thread.

[Junior Miller 1502]

2 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

Take it to the active bomber thread.

Take this to the "I'm a giant annoying asshole" thread