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Active shooter thread

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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4th&Five
4th&Five

Fuck off. You vote for this shit. Explain that to your kids. 

Pancho
Pancho

3rd leg of my move from Houston to the Bay Area, and I made it to LA.   I’m just now catching up on the news in my hotel.  I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again—I don’t have kids, but this e

royiv
royiv

WTF world are we living in when people are having a discussion about survival rates of certain rounds? People are being terrorized by gun violence and we're discussing which bullet has worse/better ch

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Bama Chick

Bama Chick 28,596

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I’m still looking for options because it’s always been my dream to move to London for retirement but they’ve fucked the goat just as bad as we have, so all my dreams are dead.

Monaco sounds cool but almost certainly crazy expensive.

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Mileslong

Mileslong 4,812

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reasonable is "what i feel "
 
That doesn't work for me bro.  Not at all.  It's not what the framers meant with regard to firearms and the behavior/ vitriol on handing dissenting opinions of the subject is EXACTLY why it should not be further regulated.
I feel the current laws are somewhat reasonable. 
Change behavior, don't criminalize  simple possession.

Is there literally nothing that can happen to change your thoughts on having no limit to gun or type of gun ownership?

And you do realize you wouldn’t need an arsenal of guns for so called protection if every man woman and child didn’t have a gun already.
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Mileslong

Mileslong 4,812

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Raise kids who don't have abortions.
Raise kids who will never shoot someone.
My grandparents did it.  My parents did it.  I did it.
 
Stop acting as if it's impossible to raise conscientious, responsible human beings.  The onus is on the individual.  Not the state.

What the fuck do abortions have to do with gun control?
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19 minutes ago, Mileslong said:


What the fuck do abortions have to do with gun control?

The post was related to raising kids who make better decisions in life.

Also according to some, One cannot support gun rights if they are pro-life.

i agree the connection is tenuous at best.

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tantric superman

tantric superman 4,668

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6 hours ago, slorch said:

Environmental laws restrict liberty?  

I disagree with the contention that a little restriction is OK if some people like it.

Of course environmental regulations restrict liberty.   A regulation always restricts liberty.

That's great that you disagree with that contention.  Which no one seems to be making.

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tantric superman

tantric superman 4,668

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6 hours ago, slorch said:

The probability for me is zero, save for some goofball legislation going forward.   Why is that so difficult to fathom. 

The only difference between you and I that I think we can establish regarding guns is that you own them and I don't.  Therefore the probability is higher that you will engage in any kind of gun activity.

The patently obvious as is beyond you grasp for you as the mildly nuanced.

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3 hours ago, tantric superman said:

The only difference between you and I that I think we can establish regarding guns is that you own them and I don't.  Therefore the probability is higher that you will engage in any kind of gun activity.

The patently obvious as is beyond you grasp for you as the mildly nuanced.

No you insist that there is a higher probability that i will commit a gun crime because I own a gun.  When a factor in a percentage is zero, the likilhood of me committing a gun crime is fucking zero because I will never do it to another human being.

Slow your roll with the nuance bullshit.  You always end up there.  Get better.

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ChuckNorrisActionJeans

ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2,692

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Problem is, data isn't on your side. More guns = more gun violence. Ergo, making guns at least more difficult to acquire under certain circumstances means making gun violence less likely.   The whole "only criminals will have guns then" is the stupidest damned counterpoint if someone with bad intentions (or not) may have to work harder and/or longer to get that deadly weapon.  States that have passed open carry laws have thereafter experienced higher rates of gun incidents.

Here's the thing. You really want to get at the underlying, underlying issue? Men. Yep, MEN specifically, are violent fucking animals. Why in the blue hell would I or anyone presume that a guy carrying a gun is a "good" guy with a gun?  That guy who is actively armed is one pissed-off moment or stupid impulse or mental breakdown away from not being a good guy. I don't feel at all safe around dudes with guns. And it's usually the gun obsessors who are the weirdos to watch out for. It's such a fetish. Goddamn Americans are weird. 

 

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Bama Chick

Bama Chick 28,596

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And read everything describing the latest shooter.

Nice guy
Quiet guy
Never had any anger problems

But apparently couldn’t handle being fired.

You can’t screen for that kind of male fragility. And face it, it is - as pointed out above - a male thing. All the LET’S FIX MENTAL HEALTH can’t predict the future on what man can’t handle his life.

But if guns weren’t SO fucking prevalent and capable of mass casualties, like this guy’s extended clip/mag/whatever the fuck, then maybe 12 innocent people wouldn’t have to be blown away because some dude’s ego couldn’t handle being fired.

And if you own a bunch of guns - or even one - you ARE statistically more likely to be the victim or perpetrator of gun violence. I bet if you had asked this asshole one month ago if he would be a mass shooter if he lost his job, he would have denied and probably thought he’d be a good guy with a gun too.

A lot of these shooters have thrown up red flags that were ignored but a lot of them showed no signs until they snapped.

And it’s even more frustrating that the exact same people screeching that restricting guns won’t reduce gun violence are the exact same assholes preaching that abortion laws will reduce abortions.

Did the last 30 years not happen where these people live?

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23,367

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I’m not making excuses for a mass murderer.  There’s no reason for violence in healthy society. 

And that’s my point.  We are not a healthy society.  We are cruel, petty, vindictive, and violent.   These shooters aren’t appearing out of a vacuum.  They’re being molded by a hostile environment of our own making.

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Bama Chick

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I’m not making excuses for a mass murderer.  There’s no reason for violence in healthy society. 
And that’s my point.  We are not a healthy society.  We are cruel, petty, vindictive, and violent.   These shooters aren’t appearing out of a vacuum.  They’re being molded by a hostile environment of our own making.


I completely agree.

And fixing THAT will take generations.

So maybe make it harder for regular American idiots to go all Rambo when their fragile male ego gets bruised.

Just spitballing.
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1 hour ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Problem is, data isn't on your side. More guns = more gun violence. Ergo, making guns at least more difficult to acquire under certain circumstances means making gun violence less likely.   The whole "only criminals will have guns then" is the stupidest damned counterpoint if someone with bad intentions (or not) may have to work harder and/or longer to get that deadly weapon.  States that have passed open carry laws have thereafter experienced higher rates of gun incidents.

Here's the thing. You really want to get at the underlying, underlying issue? Men. Yep, MEN specifically, are violent fucking animals. Why in the blue hell would I or anyone presume that a guy carrying a gun is a "good" guy with a gun?  That guy who is actively armed is one pissed-off moment or stupid impulse or mental breakdown away from not being a good guy. I don't feel at all safe around dudes with guns. And it's usually the gun obsessors who are the weirdos to watch out for. It's such a fetish. Goddamn Americans are weird. 

 

I don't carry.   I don't have a problem with folks who do. I do agree with you about the gun fetish, as I know multiple people with 200+ guns in their house.  I am not necessarily worried about them shooting someone unless some dumbass  tries to break in their house. I DO agree that it is pretty fucking weird to own that many weapons, however; I absolutely believe in their right to own them.  If they never fuck with me, then what difference does it make?

 

I kind of giggle about people who are concerned about these gun lovers.  Those are the last folks who are ever going to harm someone.  But hey... they have 5 AKs...so scary...

 

Not.

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6 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I’m not making excuses for a mass murderer.  There’s no reason for violence in healthy society. 

And that’s my point.  We are not a healthy society.  We are cruel, petty, vindictive, and violent.   These shooters aren’t appearing out of a vacuum.  They’re being molded by a hostile environment of our own making.

You cannot say that.  Society is innocent.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23,367

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13 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

 


I completely agree.

And fixing THAT will take generations.

So maybe make it harder for regular American idiots to go all Rambo when their fragile male ego gets bruised.

Just spitballing.

 

I’m all for some gun regulation to reduce the body count as long as guns are not outlawed.  I think most people are on this page.  What we lack is political power, courage, and will.  

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4,640

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15 hours ago, horncyclist said:

I say this as someone who grew up with guns and hunting, but this shit isn't worth it. We do not need guns.

Ah, the old "I'm not a racist, I have black friends" argument.  

"I grew up with guns, and it wasn't a problem then. But now I don't about them anymore, let's remove them from society"

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4,640

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15 hours ago, Patricio Swayze said:

As to your question about making me safe, how has the current laws and mentality about guns kept me safe in this country.

Are you under the impression only mass killings and murders happen with guns?  No one ever protects their property, family, or own life?   I know you are in the Houston area, there was a home invasion caught on film and played on the news less than a month ago that was thwarted due to a homeowner that had a gun and defended him/herself.   

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Bama Chick

Bama Chick 28,596

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And to really cap my night, we just had a shooting tonight in my small city at our local water park $5 night.

Got overcrowded and two idiots got in a argument and boom - one idiot pulled a gun and shot two people.

Neither life threatening - thank goodness - but it resulted in a panic and a man had a heart attack and a pregnant lady was trampled.

So I’m sure that’s the end of $5 Family Night and the beginning of metal detectors and clear bags for anyone entering the park.

I’m getting pushed closer and closer to melt them all down. What a fucking country.

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F250

F250 29,205

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1 minute ago, Bama Chick said:

And to really cap my night, we just had a shooting tonight in my small city at our local water park $5 night.

This is why I always avoid all events on $1, $2, $5 night. Shit is always unruly on those nights.

 

 

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Bama Chick

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But see how twisted that is?

I get not wanting to go somewhere crowded or a water park because it’s not your thing or whatever.

But if you’re making that calculation because you’re acknowledging going somewhere perfectly normal carries the risk of being shot???

That shit shouldn’t be normal and the fact that we so readily accept that it now is just part of life is supremely fucked up.

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horncyclist

horncyclist 1,391

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2 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Ah, the old "I'm not a racist, I have black friends" argument.  

"I grew up with guns, and it wasn't a problem then. But now I don't about them anymore, let's remove them from society"

Nah. It's more like I wasn't a racist but now I am cause dudes are shooting up elementary schools, rock concerts and work places almost daily. I fully admit to being anti-gun. 

More guns is like responding to the opioid crisis with more opioids cause some people need them for pain and don't get addicted. Apparently we're doing some of that too with a recently approved new opioid. That's the worst part. People are getting rich off these deaths and use a misinterpreted second amendment and morons like you to avoid moral responsibility. 

 

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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 29,229

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18 hours ago, slorch said:

Raise kids who don't have abortions.

Raise kids who will never shoot someone.

My grandparents did it.  My parents did it.  I did it.

 

Stop acting as if it's impossible to raise conscientious, responsible human beings.  The onus is on the individual.  Not the state.

this is a great point. everyone who owns a gun just needs to promise to use it responsibly. their moms and dads can act as witness. 

problem solved. 

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tantric superman

tantric superman 4,668

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8 hours ago, slorch said:

No you insist that there is a higher probability that i will commit a gun crime because I own a gun.

I"m not sure why you are obsessing about this point.  The possibility that either you or I will commit a gun crime is certainly not zero.  Just like the probably of either you or I having dinner in Missoula in two weeks isn't zero.  We have the capability to do so and no matter how remote the possibility, it is there.  

The potential for domestic violence escalation with the gun in the house alone would seem to in and of itself increase the probability that a gun owner would engage in gun violence. 

https://injury.research.chop.edu/violence-prevention-initiative/types-violence-involving-youth/gun-violence/gun-violence-facts-and#.XPOcgo9Rfv8

I may have a higher propensity for domestic violence than you, and hence that would be a controlling factor in determining that I would be more likely to engage in gun violence.

 

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EMAWesome

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11 hours ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Problem is, data isn't on your side. More guns = more gun violence. Ergo, making guns at least more difficult to acquire under certain circumstances means making gun violence less likely.   The whole "only criminals will have guns then" is the stupidest damned counterpoint if someone with bad intentions (or not) may have to work harder and/or longer to get that deadly weapon.  States that have passed open carry laws have thereafter experienced higher rates of gun incidents.

Here's the thing. You really want to get at the underlying, underlying issue? Men. Yep, MEN specifically, are violent fucking animals. Why in the blue hell would I or anyone presume that a guy carrying a gun is a "good" guy with a gun?  That guy who is actively armed is one pissed-off moment or stupid impulse or mental breakdown away from not being a good guy. I don't feel at all safe around dudes with guns. And it's usually the gun obsessors who are the weirdos to watch out for. It's such a fetish. Goddamn Americans are weird. 

 

Here is my under lying problem with proposals "that will make it more difficult for people who shouldn't have guns to get them."  Who gets to decide who should have a gun and who shouldn't?  What checks and balances are going to be put into place to keep this person or people from abusing this power?  The idea of a position with that kind of power being in the hands of a select few (who, since these type of positions are typically appointed and not elected,  more likely than not I am not going to have any say over whether they should be in that position or not)to me is more dangerous than anything anyone can do with a gun.  One standard rule about legislation and laws is that once you give government the power to do something you will never get them to relinquish that power.  Or in other words once power is transferred from the people to the state that power is never returned to the people.  The state only acquires power, it never cedes it back to where it came from to begin with.

 

Let's say some state enacts legislation that requires every person who wishes to purchase a gun to submit form ABC123 to a panel of say three experts who are appointed to the State Firearms Application Commission whose job it is to look at the information submitted and any other standard information about the applicant that commission has access to in order to decide whether the applicant should be allowed to purchase a firearm or not.  Let's say Applicant A and Applicant B both fall into the borderline/close call territory between approval and rejection.  The only difference between the two is that Applicant A is a dog lover and Applicant B is a cat lover.  It just so happens that all the members of the SFAC love dogs.  What is to keep them from approving Applicant A and rejecting Applicant B?  If this scenario sounds stupid, let's replace dog lover with progressive and cat lover with conservative.  Let's replace dog lover with socialist and cat lover with capitalist.  Let's replace dog lover with pro-choice and cat lover with pro-life.  Let's replace dog lover with person who voted for the governor that appointed said committee members and cat lover with person who voted for the governor's opposition who would have appointed completely different people to the committee.

 

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EMAWesome

EMAWesome 101

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11 hours ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Problem is, data isn't on your side. More guns = more gun violence. Ergo, making guns at least more difficult to acquire under certain circumstances means making gun violence less likely.   The whole "only criminals will have guns then" is the stupidest damned counterpoint if someone with bad intentions (or not) may have to work harder and/or longer to get that deadly weapon.  States that have passed open carry laws have thereafter experienced higher rates of gun incidents.

Here's the thing. You really want to get at the underlying, underlying issue? Men. Yep, MEN specifically, are violent fucking animals. Why in the blue hell would I or anyone presume that a guy carrying a gun is a "good" guy with a gun?  That guy who is actively armed is one pissed-off moment or stupid impulse or mental breakdown away from not being a good guy. I don't feel at all safe around dudes with guns. And it's usually the gun obsessors who are the weirdos to watch out for. It's such a fetish. Goddamn Americans are weird. 

 

You could say the same thing about a guy driving a car.  He is one pissed off moment, one stupid impulse, or mental breakdown away from running over you.  Do you feel safe around dudes with cars?  Do you pay particularly close attention to car fanatics?

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EMAWesome

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10 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I’m not making excuses for a mass murderer.  There’s no reason for violence in healthy society. 

And that’s my point.  We are not a healthy society.  We are cruel, petty, vindictive, and violent.   These shooters aren’t appearing out of a vacuum.  They’re being molded by a hostile environment of our own making.

Insert Orson Welles speech on the Ferris Wheel in The Third Man here.

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Grade of D as in David

Grade of D as in David 13,256

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I've seen at least two people in this thread say we need our guns as a check on the government. L O fucking L. Good luck against that Abrams tank and drone. And if you want to try and walk that back and say it's to protect us from police officers, they have is out gunned too since we offer surplus military equipment to police forces.

 

Quote

This week, Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced President Donald Trump’s plan to distribute military gear to state and local law enforcement agencies. The rule change means weapons typically reserved for war-time use – tracked armored (tank-like) vehicles, weaponized aircraft and vessels, grenade launchers, bayonets, and firearms with ammunition of .50-caliber or higher – will start flowing to local law enforcement agencies through the Department of Defense’s 1033 Program.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2017/08/31/tracking-military-weaponry-and-war-machines-flowing-to-americas-local-police-departments/#77b2db512b63

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Yeah, much like a chain link fence is there to keep the honest man honest but isn't stopping anyone wanting to steal your shit; firearms in the private citizen's hands are pretty much that when it comes to an all-out assault from modern military armament.  That being said, if all it took to win a war was fancy machines, Afghanistan would have been solved 40 years ago by the Russians.  It's much, much bigger than that and access to arms was so important to the forefathers of our country, that they put it in writing. 

At least when i mentioned it, this was the context of it.  Door to door sweeps, genocide, and the like are a wee bit more difficult when the citizens are armed. Of course my relatively light caliber rifles and shotguns ain't shit compared to an armored assault.  

Edited by slorch
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