Active shooter thread

[atomheartbevo 89409]

2 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Well, this is both terrible and completely expected.
 

To be fair to the guy, no matter how many times the AG's office egged him on, he didn't act on it.

[Brisketexan 104557]

Sounds like a strong candidate for AG or governor when Paxton and Abbott move on to bigger and better things.

[retread 2951]

He's just blowing off steam.

Quote

For the past year and a half, a gun-toting San Antonio man has forwarded more than 100 pages of complaints to the Texas Attorney General’s Office detailing supposed violations of the state’s sanctuary cities law and threatening to shoot undocumented immigrants.

Ralph Pulliam’s 14 emails account for nearly half of all “sanctuary complaints” sent to the AG since the law took effect in September 2017 and established penalties for local police who fail to cooperate with immigration authorities. Typed mostly in all caps, Pulliam’s complaints warn of an “invasion of illegal aliens” and repeatedly threaten gun violence against the interlopers.

“We will open fire on these thugs,” Pulliam, who is white, vowed in one email. “It will be a bloodbath.”

 

[fattyflattie 4636]

Hates Hispanics, lives in SA.  Huh. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

39 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

To be fair to the guy, no matter how many times the AG's office egged him on, he didn't act on it.

“Can you see him? Can you see him?”

Tears streaming down Jake Brigance’s face.

“Now imagine he’s brown.”

[TDunk 590]

5 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Would possibly save lives. Full Auto = More Magazine Changes + Less Percision

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

4 hours ago, TDunk said:

There's a reason the military doesn't use those. There's also a reason the military switched to three round burst. Folks tend to unload their entire magazine with unaimed and uncontrollable shots with one or two trigger pulls when using full auto. Maybe we should allow full auto, but only five round mags?

And, yeah, I don't think you would hear much argument at all from the vast majority of gun owners that those big magazines like that really serve no purpose other than mag dumps. If Congress tried to pass a bill making them fall into the AOW category of the NFA there probably wouldn't be a ton of pushback, provided they actually put some resources into the ATF for class three approvals and didn't attach any other BS to it. Bundle it with the Hearing Protection Act and I think you would have tons of gun owners calling their critters and telling them to support it. You could probably even limit centerfire rifle magazines to ten rounds if you did that.

[HenryJames 65887]

Normal country.

[Pescado_Rojo 19331]

19 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

Big time.
 

Man, the wingnuts are pissed about this and got a fresh load of memes from the troll farms to voice their displeasure. Must have had them working in shifts. The real consternation is that they are already boycotting Target because they let those debil worshiping transfolk use whatever restroom they want. Might be time to buy dollar store stock.

[bad_teammate 13132]

If you own a semi-automatic rifle (or semi-auto weapon of any kind), you need to put in your will how you want them to be handled in case of your death. I am terrified by the idea that one of my ARs gets passed down, isn't handled properly, and ends up killing a grandkid or great-grandkid or some other future relative. All because I like the mechanical/aesthetic aspects of guns and the cool feeling I get from shooting them.

Sucks

[Judge Roybeanbag 11806]

8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

 All because I like the mechanical/aesthetic aspects of guns and the cool feeling I get from shooting them.

Sucks

I like the mechanical aspects, but as I've gotten older I no longer get the "cool feeling" from shooting them.   It's more like the sound of money being loudly flushed down the toilet when I'm wasting ammunition.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Judge Roybeanbag

[Guest Lobo]

1 hour ago, HenryJames said:

Normal country.

When happens when the shooters are James McAvoy and Angeline Jolie in the movie "Wanted"?  Curved walls won't help you then.

I applaud them for trying to do something besides talking about arming teachers and praying more in school (Looking at you Lt. Gov. Dipshit)...but you're right...this is madness.  

I'm afraid all they really did was just dare some asshole to come shoot up the "safest school in Michigan" and they basically just showed him the floorplan.  

[Anastasis 23393]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/inside-the-toxic-online-world-where-mass-shooters-thrive-11567608631?mod=hp_lead_pos5

 

Inside the Toxic Online World Where Mass Shooters Thrive

 

Inside the Toxic Online World Where Mass Shooters Thrive

Suspects in recent attacks allegedly posted to hate-filled forums such as 8chan, which brim with racist content; toting kill ‘scores’

The suspect in the mass shooting in Christchurch, New Zealand, allegedly posted a racist manifesto before the attack. ALEXANDER ROMITSYN/ZUMA PRESS

 

 

 

 

 

By 

Georgia Wells and 

Ian Lovett

Sept. 4, 2019 10:50 am ET

•  
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Less than two weeks after a gunman killed more than 50 people at two mosques in New Zealand, law-enforcement officials found a disturbing piece of graffiti outside a San Diego County mosque that had been set on fire. “For Brenton Tarrant -t./pol/,” it read.

The cryptic message, which paid homage to the alleged New Zealand shooter and a dark corner of the internet where such shootings are celebrated, foreshadowed a string of violence.

In April, one month after the graffiti appeared, John Earnest, the man who police say vandalized the mosque, allegedly attacked a nearby synagogue, leaving one person dead. Then, in August, a shooting in an El Paso Walmart killed 22. One week later, a Norwegian man allegedly opened fire at an Oslo mosque.

The trio of suspects don’t appear ever to have met, but they all idolized Mr. Tarrant and were part of a hate-filled online community that is emerging as an important front in law-enforcement efforts to ward off future attacks.

The online forums, known as /pol/ for “politically incorrect,” offer a platform for hate speech where posts are almost always anonymous, making it difficult for law enforcement to identify who is using the sites. Hateful ideologies, including white supremacy, are promoted across the sites and used to incite violence, forming a chain of influence that appears to have led from one mass shooting to the next. When one site is shut down, users swiftly migrate to another.

In April, a gunman opened fire at a synagogue in Poway, Calif., killing one. PHOTO: DENIS POROY/ASSOCIATED PRESS

 

Mass shooters are revered on the forums, which brim with racist and antigay content. Posts encourage attacks against mosques, synagogues and immigrants. Large numbers of fatalities are celebrated as “high scores.”

When a gunman in West Texas opened fire on Saturday, the forums lit up, with users demanding to know his “kill count” and saying they hoped he was white and his victims Hispanic. The alleged shooter doesn’t appear to have ties to the forums.

The most popular site among extremists, 8chan, has been largely knocked offline in recent weeks after tech-support providers cut off service. But extremists and violent rhetoric are popping up elsewhere. The alleged attacker at the Oslo mosque posted on another site, Endchan. A letter New Zealand authorities said Mr. Tarrant sent from jail, which warns of bloodshed soon to come, was posted on another site, 4chan. The sites are unconnected.

Lawmakers and law-enforcement officials are trying to better understand how the sites function and what can be done to combat their calls to violence. Democratic and Republican leaders of the House Homeland Security Committee subpoenaed Jim Watkins, 8chan’s owner, to testify Thursday about extremist content. The committee is weighing whether the government should take a more active role in trying to prevent the spread of such content, and how the sites can flag potential violence to law enforcement, according to a person familiar with the committee’s plans. Committee Chairman Bennie G. Thompson (D., Miss.) has vowed to hold hearings to discuss how to better fight what he calls domestic terrorism.

Dark MatterDaily traffic on online forum 8chan spiked thesame day as mosque shootings inChristchurch, New Zealand.Source: SimilarWebNote: Data from Jan. 1, 2017 to July 31, 2019.

.millionMarch 15, 2019Christchurch mosqueshootings2017’18’190.000.250.500.751.001.251.501.752.00

Counterterrorism experts and others who study the forums say they provide inspiration for some participants to act, catalyzing a succession of lone-wolf shooters who try to one-up one another. Shutting them down entirely will be all but impossible, said Robert Evans, who has investigated internet extremism for years with research collective Bellingcat. “I expect we will see shootings that are inspired by these manifestos but posted on places other than 8chan because the site is down,” he said.

Law-enforcement officials say Mr. Earnest, the 20-year-old accused in the San Diego attack, Patrick Crusius, the alleged shooter in El Paso, and Mr. Tarrant all posted racist manifestos to 8chan’s /pol/ forum ahead of their attacks. In each case, other users responded while the shootings were going on.

“He at least did something, thats respectable,” one 8chan user posted about Mr. Earnest’s alleged synagogue shooting.

 

“So what’s his kill count?” said another.

Tore Bjørgo, director of the Center for Research on Extremism in Oslo, said: “You have this idea that they should outdo each other.” Sites such as 8chan, he said, are “where they find their inspiration…That’s where they expect to get fame and recognition.”

An image taken from video that circulated on social media, apparently taken by the gunman who attacked two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, shows him retrieving weapons from his car. PHOTO: REUTERS

Messrs. Tarrant and Earnest have pleaded not guilty. Mr. Crusius hasn’t yet been arraigned. Mr. Earnest’s lawyer declined to comment. Lawyers for the other two suspects didn’t respond to requests for comment.

8chan didn’t respond to requests for comment. In postings on Twitter and YouTube after the subpoena, Mr. Watkins, who resides in the Philippines, said he isn’t an extremist, and he defended 8chan as a bastion of free speech.

Mr. Watkins said the site had a million users, and 4chan has said its site has more than 20 million. SimiliarWeb, an internet traffic research firm, estimates 8chan has 10 million to 20 million visits a month.

Founded in 2013, 8chan gained popularity the following year when 4chan, a similar site with less hate speech and more moderation, cracked down on users who were harassing women who developed and reviewed videogames. 8chan embraced those users.

SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS

To what extent should online forums try to police hate speech? Join the conversation below.

The site calls itself “the darkest reaches of the internet.” Its home page carries a disclaimer saying that some topic sections, or “boards,” might “have content of an adult or offensive nature,” and only content violating U.S. laws is deleted.

Anonymity is protected. Users are given a random ID number for each discussion, and frequently use jargon alien to outsiders—derisively referred to as “normies.” The stripped-down user interface seems straight out of the 1990s. It contains lists of links to discussion boards on such topics as anime, pornography and videogames.

 

Unpaid moderators on 8chan’s /pol/ forum promote certain ideologies, according to one researcher of radical online communities who has studied the site for years. One moderator deleted anti-Trump statements, the researcher said, while others argue about whether to support patriotism or white nationalism. Recruiters for the Atomwaffen Division, a neo-Nazi terrorist group, lurk on the site, he said.

Online Audience

The 8chan forum is most popular with young men.

Age distribution

25.1%

18-24

32.1

25-34

15.0

34-44

11.7

45-54

8.5

55-64

7.6

65+

Gender breakdown

Female 15.1%

Male 84.9%

Source: SimilarWeb

Often users show up on 8chan airing vague frustrations. The tone often starts as mocking and sarcastic. Then other users encourage them to express anger at groups they identify as the enemy—often Jews, feminists, black people and other minorities—giving the newcomers a sense of purpose, according to the researcher.

Anti-Semitic cartoons, diatribes against race mixing and proclamations of a coming “race war” dominate 8chan’s /pol/ board. A popular meme depicts images of murdered white women, a message intended to persuade white women not to associate with nonwhite men and justify promoting race-based violence. Another popular meme asks users: “What have you done today for the white race?”

Anders Breivik, the Norwegian neo-Nazi who killed 77 people in 2011, is lionized, and his 1,500-page manifesto, which was frequently shared on 8chan, is a touchstone. Mr. Tarrant cited Mr. Breivik as his guiding light.

Mr. Evans, of Bellingcat, analyzed how 75 extremists on the internet said they had become radicalized. In about half of the cases, their paths started with a radical YouTube video, typically anti-Semitic or Holocaust-denying, which pushes conspiracy theories. YouTube has said it has taken steps to reduce extremist content.

Police in Norway investigate the site of a massacre in 2011. The gunman, Anders Breivik, is lionized in some online forums. PHOTO: JEFF J. MITCHELL/GETTY IMAGES

“8chan’s /pol/ board is the end of a journey of radicalization,” he said. “It’s to radicalize you into taking the next step.”

8chan played a major role in Mr. Earnest’s transformation, according to his manifesto and people close to him. He wrote that he had a lot going for him—a loving family, great friends, a church—and that he was doing well in nursing school. He said his family never taught him the ideology behind his attack.

The people close to Mr. Earnest said he began diverging politically from his family 2016, when he began supporting then-candidate Donald Trump for president. He then started watching YouTube videos from right-wing commentators.

By late 2017, Mr. Earnest wrote, he had found his way to 8chan. People close to him said he began talking about Pepe the Frog, a cartoon character appropriated by white supremacists as a sort of mascot, and started tossing around clichés of anti-Semitism: Holocaust denial and the supposed existence of a Jewish conspiracy controlling government, Hollywood, major organizations and trade unions.

 

“He made it clear that 4chan was like amateur league, and he had risen to 8chan,” one of the people close to him said.

He also started using the N-word, prompting objections from family members, who noted that the pastor’s wife at their Orthodox Presbyterian Church is black. Mr. Earnest would respond that it wasn’t a big deal.

The 8chan homepage on Aug. 5, just before tech-support providers effectively shut it down.

His family grew concerned and warned him that he could be manipulated by the anonymous people he was talking to online, said the person close to him. “That was not enough to overcome the grab that these ideas had on him that he gained from these anonymous sources,” this person said. Mr. Earnest always had a “canned” response defending his ideology.

In the months before the attack, he seemed more sullen and slower to laugh, the people close to him said. Still, those around him didn’t think he was dangerous. They hadn’t visited the site themselves or seen what he may have been posting there.

“I believed this was going to resolve,” one of them said. “We obviously did not understand the trajectory of where this would land.”

In the manifesto Mr. Earnest allegedly posted to 8chan shortly before the shooting began, he offered gratitude to 8chan and said Mr. Tarrant had inspired him.

“I’ve only been lurking for a year and a half, yet, what I’ve learned here is priceless,” the manifesto said about 8chan. “Tarrant was a catalyst for me personally…I only wish to inspire others.”

Mr. Tarrant had worn a camera and live-streamed his New Zealand attack, a practice that experts say turns shootings into a twisted form of entertainment. Mr. Earnest allegedly planned to film his attack, too. During the shooting, a link to a Facebook Live stream was widely shared on the 8chan /pol/ board, although people on 8chan said they couldn’t load it. Users joked and offered critiques, some mocking him for failing to kill more people.

“What the f— shooting style is this,” said one. “Garbage.”

“Go over to the synagogue and finish this retard’s work,” said another.

“I don’t think you get the title of ‘mass shooter’ unless you score at least 2,” said a third.

Still another weighed in: “Contrary to popular belief, shooting them in the nose doesn’t kill a jew?”

For law enforcement, 8chan manifestos and discussions are potential evidence—and a breeding ground for more violence. After the San Diego area attack, the Federal Bureau of Investigation served a warrant to 8chan, seeking IP addresses and information about all the people who responded to Mr. Earnest’s posting or commented about it. “Some of the individuals may be potential witnesses, co-conspirators and/or individuals who are inspired by the subject posting,” the warrant said.

Mr. Crusius, the El Paso shooting suspect, cited similar motivations to Mr. Earnest’s in the manifesto he allegedly posted on 8chan. He wrote: “I support the Christchurch shooter and his manifesto,” a reference to Mr. Tarrant. “This attack is a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas.”

Commenters on the site celebrated. “The new guy deserves some praise, he reached almost a third of the high score,” one wrote, a reference to the largest death toll in any mass shooting.

Under pressure following the El Paso massacre, internet-infrastructure provider Cloudflare Inc. stopped supporting 8chan, making it difficult to access. Cloudflare called the site “lawless by design.”

John Earnest, the suspect in an attack on a San Diego-area mosque, allegedly posted a manifesto on 8chan before the shooting.

Some users circulated a document with instructions for finding 8chan on a hidden server on the dark web, a network of computers that use special software to conceal their true locations. Others migrated to other sites or to encrypted chat apps, where they are finding a thriving community similar to the one they left, according to Megan Squire, a professor of computer science at Elon University in North Carolina, who studies online extremism.

“They are following ISIS. They are under the same pressure to avoid detection,” she said.

Exactly one week after El Paso, Philip Manshaus, a 21-year-old Norwegian, allegedly posted a message on Endchan, another fringe site that has more moderation and less focus on violence than 8chan.

“It’s my time,” said a posting that carried his name. “I was elected by Saint Tarrant,” a reference to the New Zealand suspect. He also posted a meme celebrating Messrs. Earnest and Crusius as “disciples” of Mr. Tarrant.

Mr. Manshaus then allegedly went to the Oslo mosque and opened fire, injuring one person before being subdued by congregants.

The post attributed to him said he tried to set up a live stream of his attack on Facebook but wasn’t able to get it to work.

Endchan moderators quickly deleted the post and briefly took their site offline. They said a “large influx” of 8chan refugees had hit their site and many sites like theirs.

“This shooter is NOT representative of our regular user base,” Endchan said in a post on Twitter. “We have operated since 2015 without any incidents like this.”

Mr. Manshaus’s message was reposted on 4chan, where it spread quickly, generating scores of comments.

“God i hope he got a solid kill count on some actual shitting islamic invaders, not women and children,” one anonymous poster wrote.

When it became clear no one had died, many commenters mocked Mr. Manshaus in posts riddled with racist, anti-Semitic and anti-Islamic slurs.

“what a f—ing disappointment tho. no deads. no livestream,” one commenter wrote. “how many times will this happen? f—ing train at least”

“Some people aren’t made to kill,” wrote another. “He probably freaked out. Anders Breivik was stone cold, he went out like a terminator.”

4chan didn’t respond to a request for comment.

The suspect in the mass shooting at a Walmart in El Paso, Texas, allegedly visited 8chan’s /pol/ forum. PHOTO: LARRY W. SMITH/EPA/SHUTTERSTOCK

A group on chat app Telegram called The Bowlcast—a reference to the bowl-style haircut of Dylan Roof, who killed nine black churchgoers in Charleston, S.C., in 2015—posted a series of podcasts about which of these shooters they should canonize, according to Ms. Squire, who has viewed the posts and listened to the podcasts. Mr. Earnest, from San Diego, earned sainthood, they decided, but not Mr. Manshaus, because he was overtaken by worshipers at the mosque.

Shortly after the Oslo shooting, Mr. Tarrant surfaced again, this time via photographs posted on 4chan of a letter he allegedly wrote from his New Zealand prison. The letter, which received hundreds of comments on 4chan, concluded with talk of a “great conflict” on the horizon that would involve “a great amount of bloodshed.”

“Enjoy life,” he signed off, “but do not forget your duty to your people.”

Write to Georgia Wells at Georgia.Wells@wsj.com and Ian Lovett at Ian.Lovett@wsj.com

 

[WhatTheBuck 28705]

14 hours ago, Mojo Hand said:

What did April have to say about that? 

Billy, don't be a hero. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

Anastasis, I don't want to use the quote function since your post is really long. After reading it, I've come to the conclusion that perhaps I no longer wish to identify as human. I am going to be a ladybug. My life will be short, my diet will be aphids but as least I don't have to know about such evil people that take joy in the suffering and death of others.

[jimmyjazz 45546]

Thanks for the (spoilered) article, Anastasis.  I didn't read it all, but what I read confirmed what we've all heard.

 

[Steamboat1874 4032]

3 hours ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Man, the wingnuts are pissed about this and got a fresh load of memes from the troll farms to voice their displeasure. Must have had them working in shifts. The real consternation is that they are already boycotting Target because they let those debil worshiping transfolk use whatever restroom they want. Might be time to buy dollar store stock.

[Aqua Buddha 14501]

[American Swindle 102]

18 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

NOTE:

Reading through the comments it appears that Justine (the person who posted this on Twitter) added the caption herself or if there was a caption it's been deleted.

**A question/Trigger warning**

 

A lot of folks think the CIA/Govt was responsible for MLK Jr.'s assassination.  If this is true, which I think it is likely, then would they be more fearful and less deterred by an armed civilian population or a disarmed one?

 

[Ted Lange 16041]

 

 

[DixonHur 11170]

14 minutes ago, American Swindle said:

**A question/Trigger warning**

 

A lot of folks think the CIA/Govt was responsible for MLK Jr.'s assassination.  If this is true, which I think it is likely, then would they be more fearful and less deterred by an armed civilian population or a disarmed one?

 

It's like the GOP gun nuts think Red Dawn was a documentary.  You, and your hunting buddy Lee Roy's AR-15s are not going to stop the US government if they want to impose martial law.

What you'd need is some sort of well regulated militia to have a chance.  Too bad the Founding Fathers didn't think about that when crafting the 2nd amendment.  

 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13546]

26 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

 

 

The Jesus did this.

[NowThis 931]

Taliban warns against travel to U.S. due to gun violence

 

 

KABUL, Afghanistan ⁠— The Taliban has issued an official warning against travel to the United States because an increased threat of gun violence. The announcement warned all Afghanis, “Do not travel to the United States. You may get shot there.”

“All Afghans [traveling to the United States] should bring at least one towel, body armor, and rape whistles,” he said, “because America is a really dangerous place. Also, don’t go to Chicago. At all. People die there every day.”

He continued, “We are also concerned with the number of milkshakes being thrown on ordinary U.S. citizens during random riots. We have no idea who the enemies in America are.”

['stache 21761]

I'd love to see the rednecks boycott Walmart and discovery what shit actually costs.

[American Swindle 102]

2 hours ago, DixonHur said:

It's like the GOP gun nuts think Red Dawn was a documentary.  You, and your hunting buddy Lee Roy's AR-15s are not going to stop the US government if they want to impose martial law.

What you'd need is some sort of well regulated militia to have a chance.  Too bad the Founding Fathers didn't think about that when crafting the 2nd amendment.  

 

Like the Bundy Ranch Militia?  I don't recall the feds wiping them out....

If a militia has the moral high ground against government tyranny, you think that every military man and woman are just gonna "follow orders?"  

 

[Hawndoh 2382]

8 minutes ago, American Swindle said:

Like the Bundy Ranch Militia?  I don't recall the feds wiping them out....

If a militia has the moral high ground against government tyranny, you think that every military man and woman are just gonna "follow orders?"  

 

They don't all have to follow orders. Just the few of them controlling the drones. 

 

[DixonHur 11170]

6 minutes ago, American Swindle said:

Like the Bundy Ranch Militia?  I don't recall the feds wiping them out....

If a militia has the moral high ground against government tyranny, you think that every military man and woman are just gonna "follow orders?"  

 

What?  Nothing in your post makes any sense...which I suppose shouldn't have surprised me as much as it did.

Just because you call yourself a militia does not mean you are a militia.  Did you know Dr. J isn't actually a doctor?

Militias are state run military organizations, not a bunch of ranchers with guns.

You don't recall the Feds "wiping them out" because that wasn't the goal.  If the Feds wanted them dead, they would have been dead.  Period.

I have zero idea what point you are trying to make with the third "sentence".  Is that even English?

[Jack Straw 2953]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

 Did you know Dr. J isn't actually a doctor?

bwahahaha 

[Loco 3752]

44 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I'd love to see the rednecks boycott Walmart and discovery what shit actually costs.

Wait till Trump's tax hikes hit.  They'll be too stupid to actually understand, but it'll be entertaining none the less.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Loco

[atomheartbevo 89409]

2 hours ago, Loco said:

Wait till Trump's tax hikes hit.  They'll be too stupid to actually understand, but it'll be entertaining none the less.

They'll feel conflicted when they need a new phone, and the only one they can afford is one of the communist socialist Google robot phones, and not an Amerkan iPhone like Dear Leader.

[Pescado_Rojo 19331]

On 9/3/2019 at 3:20 PM, Bama Chick said:

This bitch.
 

She looks like she's on her 5th Sutter Home Chardonnay at the airport Hilton bar in shitsville USA trying to talk a ball bearing salesman into coming back to her room. 

[Brisketexan 104557]

She looks like she's on her 5th Sutter Home Chardonnay at the airport Hilton bar in shitsville USA trying to talk a ball bearing salesman into coming back to her room. 

I could sell ball bearings.
I’m listening...

[American Swindle 102]

20 hours ago, DixonHur said:

What?  Nothing in your post makes any sense...which I suppose shouldn't have surprised me as much as it did.

Just because you call yourself a militia does not mean you are a militia.  Did you know Dr. J isn't actually a doctor?

Militias are state run military organizations, not a bunch of ranchers with guns.

You don't recall the Feds "wiping them out" because that wasn't the goal.  If the Feds wanted them dead, they would have been dead.  Period.

I have zero idea what point you are trying to make with the third "sentence".  Is that even English?

The point is they ended up thwarting federal encroachments and were well armed and fought for what they believed to be constitutionally protected rights. 

Here's a definition.  I can concede that perhaps the Bundy Ranchers were not technically a militia.  Do we really need to argue wheter or not the Bundy Standoff was between the Feds and a group of armed civilians that were, in their minds, fighting against federal tyranny? 

Quote

A militia (/ m ɪ ˈ l ɪ ʃ ə /) is generally an army or some other fighting organization of non-professional soldiers, citizens of a nation, or subjects of a state, who can be called upon for military service during a time of need, as opposed to a professional force of regular, full-time military personnel, or historically, members of a warrior nobility class

 

And here's a thought for consideration: if the Federal government is to have such morally bankrupt military personnel that are willing to drone bomb ("Follow orders") armed law-abiding citizens(as Hawndoh mentioned) for standing up for the Constitution , then why does it seem like many are so willing to let them grow in size, scope and power and regulate our right to defend ourselves?  The irony in this is that the folks "following orders" swear an oath to the Constitution and yet, they incrementally encroach upon it year after year.  

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by American Swindle

[CO Horn 154]

14 minutes ago, American Swindle said:

The point is they ended up thwarting federal encroachments and were well armed and fought for what they believed to be constitutionally protected rights. 

Here's a definition.  I can concede that perhaps the Bundy Ranchers were not technically a militia.  Do we really need to argue wheter or not the Bundy Standoff was between the Feds and a group of armed civilians that were, in their minds, fighting against federal tyranny? 

 

And here's a thought for consideration: if the Federal government is to have such morally bankrupt military personnel that are willing to drone bomb ("Follow orders") armed law-abiding citizens(as Hawndoh mentioned) for standing up for the Constitution , then why does it seem like many are so willing to let them grow in size, scope and power and regulate our right to defend ourselves?  The irony in this is that the folks "following orders" swear an oath to the Constitution and yet, they incrementally encroach upon it year after year.  

 

 

 

Let's assume that assault rifles are banned and it is determined that the new law is constitutional.  What happens if those that own such weapons refuse to give them up?  Are they still armed law-abiding citizens?

[Longhorn_Fan68 33834]

apply the same question to drinking during prohibition and I think you have your answer.

[DixonHur 11170]

1 hour ago, American Swindle said:

Do we really need to argue wheter or not the Bundy Standoff was between the Feds and a group of armed civilians that were, in their minds, fighting against federal tyranny? 

I guess we do, because what they were doing was clearly unconstitutional.  Do you even know anything about the case?

They were grazing their cattle on federal land without paying the fees because they said it was state land.  It was not and they lost in court time and time again.  

[atomheartbevo 89409]

http://www.fox7austin.com/news/local-news/gov-abbott-issues-executive-orders-in-response-to-el-paso-odessa-shootings

Quote

Governor Greg Abbott has issued eight executive orders in response to the mass shootings in El Paso and Odessa.

Gov. Abbott says in a press release that the orders have been issued to help prevent further mass shootings by enhancing reporting requirements and making sure that law enforcement and the public have what they need to provide and respond to Suspicious Activity Reports.

Order No. 1 Within thirty days of this order, the Texas Department of Public Safety shall develop standardized intake questions that can be used by all Texas law-enforcement agencies to better identify whether a person calling the agency has information that should be reported to the Texas Suspicious Activity Reporting Network.

Order No. 2 Within thirty days of this order, the Department of Public Safety shall develop clear guidance, based on the appropriate legal standard, for when and how Texas law-enforcement agencies should submit Suspicious Activity Reports.

Order No. 3 Within sixty days of this order, the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement shall make training available to educate all law-enforcement officers regarding the standards that will be developed pursuant to Order No. 1 and Order No. 2.

Order No. 4 The Department of Public Safety shall create and conduct an initiative to raise public awareness and understanding of how Suspicious Activity Reports are used by law-enforcement agencies to identify potential mass shooters or terroristic threats, so that the general public and friends, family members, coworkers, neighbors, and classmates will be more likely to report information about potential gunmen.

Order No. 5 The Department of Public Safety shall work with the Texas Education Agency and the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board on ways to better inform schools, students, staff, and families about the importance of Suspicious Activity Reports and how to initiate that process.

Order No. 6 The Department of Public Safety shall work with local law enforcement, mental-health professionals, school districts, and others to create multidisciplinary threat assessment teams for each of its regions, and when appropriate shall coordinate with federal partners.

Order No. 7 The Department of Public Safety, as well as the Office of the Governor, shall use all available resources to increase staff at all fusion centers in Texas for the purpose of better collecting and responding to Suspicious Activity Reports, and better monitoring and analyzing social media and other online forums, for potential threats. 

Order No. 8 Beginning January 1, 2020, all future grant awards from the Office of the Governor to counties shall require a commitment that the county will report at least 90 percent of convictions within seven business days to the Criminal Justice Information System at the Department of Public Safety.  By January 1, 2021, such reporting must take place within five business days.

Gov. Abbott says the action taken today is a starting point to keep Texas communities safe. He says he will be releasing a report of findings and recommendations from the Texas Safety Commission meetings next week to further advance solutions and jumpstart legislative action.

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It's a start, and it's going to rustle some jimmies.

[jimmyjazz 45546]

I suppose it could be argued that the American people could go all Afghan or Viet Cong and hide out in the mountains and caves, and basically drag an extended war into a draw.  I'm skeptical.  It sure wouldn't be a "victory" -- this isn't 1776 or even 1861.  The US military can and will effectively squash any uprising if ordered to do so.

[Ted Lange 16041]

31 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

It’s almost like they just latch on to whatever argument they think will get them the result they want.

This would fit well in the, Donald Trump, Running mockery of the AltRight, and Republican Party thread.  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

33 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

I went through that in a real life conversation a few days ago with a highly educated, intelligent older, conservative UT Law grad.   This person actually is smart.  This person made a career of arguing for a living.  And when talking about gun control, it took about 2 sentences of reasonable debate before this person just threw out a string of non-sequitur “what about’s” that you’d expect to hear from Sean Hannity.

What about Chicago?  What about defending yourself against the tyranny of the government (which included “Obama used the IRS to target citizens - we know the government isn’t above coming after us!”)?  What about Fast and Furious - what if the Odessa guy got one of those guns, huh? 

It was kind of shocking to be honest.  I expected better.  But it really drove home to me how little honest debate there is.  Whether it’s political twitter or real life, someone you expect it from or someone you don’t, it seems like more and more people are just taking a pre-conceived conclusion and working backward from there, latching on to anything that sounds like it will back them up.  I am sure I do it, too, but holy shit - the modern Republicans don’t even try to make sense!  They don’t even communicate in compete thoughts.  Learned professionals literally just say, “But Obama!   What about ____?” as if those lines are fully formed arguments.

I have a smart lawyer friend kind of like this except he stands by his perceived “principles” and argues the only legitimate approach on guns is to change the second amendment.  Anything short of that he views as unconstitutional.  He even thinks fully automatic weapons should be available to the law abiding public unless there is a change to the constitution.  He just doesn’t give an inch regardless of what makes obvious sense. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

11 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I have a smart lawyer friend kind of like this except he stands by his perceived “principles” and argues the only legitimate approach on guns is to change the second amendment.  Anything short of that he views as unconstitutional.  He even thinks fully automatic weapons should be available to the law abiding public unless there is a change to the constitution.  He just doesn’t give an inch regardless of what makes obvious sense. 

Your smart lawyer friend isn’t all that smart, at least when it comes to the second amendment and the constitution. 

Everyone always focuses on the well regulated militia clause, which is important,  but much more important is the word “people” which is found in the second amendment,  as opposed to the word “person”  found in other amendments, such as the fifth amendment. 

The difference is significant. You can regulate any individuals right to keep and bear arms, you just can’t regulate “the people’s” right to do so. 

In other words, joe six pack dumbshit who decides to march through a wal mart flashing his assault rifle weapon for no good reason other than his dick is really small, or really really likes to beat the shit out of his wife, or even just because his IQ is 75 and made some vague threat against his teacher, can easily lose HIS right to bear ANY arms, so long as his idiocy doesn’t affect everyone else’s ability to do so. 

This whole debate is ridiculous and is specifically designed by the NRA to be so, in order to trigger the morons. 

[atomheartbevo 89409]

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

I suppose it could be argued that the American people could go all Afghan or Viet Cong and hide out in the mountains and caves, and basically drag an extended war into a draw.  I'm skeptical.  It sure wouldn't be a "victory" -- this isn't 1776 or even 1861.  The US military can and will effectively squash any uprising if ordered to do so.

Depends on how big the uprising is.   We couldn't pacify Iraq, a country smaller than the State of Texas and with 5 million less people.

Our military is not as big as people think it is, for a country with 330 million people, and our geographical spread is insane.   

The actual "boots on the ground" component is fairly small - the vast majority are the supporting folks.  We have far more people in civilian law enforcement across the country than we do in the "boots on the ground" components of the Army and Marines.

Plus, if shit gets serious enough that the military is being called out, I'm not talking about the National Guard acting in a riot-control capacity in a state or two to deal with a few cities, but the Actual United States of Amerka Military, then that means we are going to see a huge breakdown in many areas of things like electricity, gas, water, etc. as people stop going into their jobs.

At that point, you've got families of soldiers/Marines being affected by this, and those soldiers/Marines are going to bail and go take care of their families.

And even if those soldiers/Marines could get their families onto the nearest base, the government doesn't have the means to indefinitely keep those bases supplied with the necessities.

But it will not reach that point - none of these movements will ever reach that stage (they wouldn't be allowed to), because they'll be dealt with at the local level with civilian law enforcement (whether that be the local Barney Fife, or the FBI).

Plus, most people are far too comfortable with how things are - they've got their cable TV, their big-screen TVs, their internet and smartphones.    

[Aqua Buddha 14501]

I like how the gun nuts are perfectly fine with Hobby Lobby being able to deny contraceptive coverage due to some made up religious belief but they DEMAND that Walmart keep selling guns.  I mean, how dare they bring politics into it?

They also seem to upset that Walmart is making it more difficult for them to buy guns yet are fine with women driving 4 hours for an abortion.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 hour ago, JimmyJames said:

Your smart lawyer friend isn’t all that smart, at least when it comes to the second amendment and the constitution. 

Yes, this was the point of my post.  He's really just stubborn and dogmatic AF.

He's a Scalia worshiper too because "constitutional originalism".

I recently challenged on this by asking, "If Scalia was such an originalist, how do you explain his vote on Citizens United?"

I am still waiting for an answer on that. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Aqua Buddha 14501]

1 hour ago, JimmyJames said:

Your smart lawyer friend isn’t all that smart, at least when it comes to the second amendment and the constitution. 

Everyone always focuses on the well regulated militia clause, which is important,  but much more important is the word “people” which is found in the second amendment,  as opposed to the word “person”  found in other amendments, such as the fifth amendment. 

The difference is significant. You can regulate any individuals right to keep and bear arms, you just can’t regulate “the people’s” right to do so. 

In other words, joe six pack dumbshit who decides to march through a wal mart flashing his assault rifle weapon for no good reason other than his dick is really small, or really really likes to beat the shit out of his wife, or even just because his IQ is 75 and made some vague threat against his teacher, can easily lose HIS right to bear ANY arms, so long as his idiocy doesn’t affect everyone else’s ability to do so. 

This whole debate is ridiculous and is specifically designed by the NRA to be so, in order to trigger the morons.

That last part in particular is true.  The average gun nut has a very butchered understand of the very concepts of rights and the NRA has appealed to that lowest common denominator.  

[DixonHur 11170]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Yes, this was the point of my post.  He's really just stubborn and dogmatic AF.

He's a Scalia worshiper too because "constitutional originalism".

I recently challenged on this by asking, "If Scalia was such an originalist, how do you explain his vote on Citizens United?"

I am still waiting for an answer on that. 

The whole idea of "constitutional originalism" is just dumb anyway. 

Thomas Jefferson specifically noted the need for a living constitution.  Hell, it's even written on the wall of his memorial in DC.

Quote

“I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.” - Thomas Jefferson...Founding Father

 

[Fondren & Main 6665]

We got to install microwave ovens, custom kitchen deliveriiiies!

[bolverk 29397]

25 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

We got to install microwave ovens, custom kitchen deliveriiiies!

In contrast to what I would've expected, you're quoting lyrics from a song that openly mocks conservative viewpoints.

[hpslugga 4043]

On 9/4/2019 at 3:28 PM, 'stache said:

I'd love to see the rednecks boycott Walmart and discovery what shit actually costs.

They only announce boycotts; they don’t actually follow through with them. For example, when those simpletons were burning their Nikes in protest of Colin Kaepernick, you know full well that those morons went out and bought another pair when it donned on them “shit, I need a new pair of shoes,” and they went out and got Nikes again. 

[DDD Dad 14250]

They only announce boycotts; they don’t actually follow through with them. For example, when those simpletons were burning their Nikes in protest of Colin Kaepernick, you know full well that those morons went out and bought another pair when it donned on them “shit, I need a new pair of shoes,” and they went out and got Nikes again. 

They just put black tape over the swoosh.

Problem solved!