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Active shooter thread

Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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Nicole44

Nicole44 22310

Posted
Posted

I only mention that I’ve been in NJ and NY since Saturday to share a little perspective. I had been staying in NJ until yesterday afternoon at the Hyatt Regency in Newark until about 1:30 or so when I got an Uber over to Hell’s Kitchen. Started seeing just a sea of cops coming from all over. Never seen anything like it. 

Since I’m actually in NY now can offer some of what the local media here is saying.

corroborating the previous post by @Tuco

1. Male shooter (David Anderson, 47) and his girlfriend, Francine Graham, 50. Not confirmed if she was carrying a rifle or weapon.

2. Crude pipe bomb was in the stolen Uhaul.

3. The KC Kosher Deli was most definitely a target. They know this because the male shooter passed by several pedestrians without incident and immediately started firing on the deli after walking from where the uhaul was parked. Female walked behind him.

4. Detective Seals who was shot and killed in the Bayview cemetery was investigating the homicide of Michael Rumberger, an Uber driver who was found beaten to death in the trunk of a car in Bayonne. 

5. The shooting at the JC Kosher supermarket is one mile from the cemetery where Det Seals was killed. The shooting at the Kosher market began at 12:21 pm. It is important to Know that at 12:38 pm (17 minutes after the market shooting/standoff started) an individual called 911 to say they had found the body of Det Seals in the cemetery. This is how they know it was targeted. 

6. People here are really jacked up as this is being viewed as a potential hate crime. Everyone was talking about it at the restaurant/bars I was at last night. 

7. There is one survivor of the market shooting. A young man who escaped when the shooting began and whose name media is not releasing. 

Not sure if any of this shit is helpful just wanted to share my impressions of the last 27 hours or so. 

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Fuck off. You vote for this shit. Explain that to your kids. 

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8350

Posted
Posted

Moscow this time, at FSB HQ no less:

Quote

A gunman opened fire at Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) headquarters in central Moscow on Thursday evening, killing one officer and wounding five others, including one civilian.

An unverified video depicted officers exchanging gunfire and appearing to kill the alleged shooter behind a column. Other videos showed the FSB building being sprayed with gunfire and the moment a black-clad man resembling an officer was hit while running from a column to a parking lot.

Dude was a security type who might have had some kind of beef relating to the FSB not hiring him. Or he might have been turned by the wily Ay-rabs. 

Quote

Manyurov’s father told the 112 Telegram channel that his son might have been “zombified.” According to his father, Manyurov spent time working as a security guard at the United Arab Emirates' Embassy, where he reportedly started to develop an “eastern” accent.

 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106889

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5 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Moscow this time, at FSB HQ no less:

Dude was a security type who might have had some kind of beef relating to the FSB not hiring him. Or he might have been turned by the wily Ay-rabs. 

 

"He done been zombified!  And he started talkin' all funny-like!"

Proof that Russians and redneck-Americans are indeed closely related.

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DDD Dad

DDD Dad 14648

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

50+ years in Texas and have spent a total of 10 days in Dfw.  No idea about your part of Texas. Anything within 75 miles of Dallas is Dallas to the rest of Texas.

Unless you’re from Fort Worth and have a chip on your shoulder. Wait. That was redundant. 

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zork

zork 629

Posted
Posted (edited)

video, graphic violence, of shooting.  look in upper middle of the frame.  it is boom, boom, boom, and a flurry of churchgoers descend on that part of the sanctuary guns drawn:

Spoiler

 

 

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zork

zork 629

Posted
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14 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Wow, there were a LOT of guns in that church. The security guard got off an amazing shot to take down the shooter. Horrible that this happened.

As horrible as it was, imagine no security or gun toting churchgoers there and the perp similarly armed?  Would have been much, much more horrible.  It is where we are.  

Machete(NY attack), Shotgun attack here, mentally ill everywhere.

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26847

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As horrible as it was, imagine no security or gun toting churchgoers there and the perp similarly armed?  Would have been much, much more horrible.  It is where we are.  

Machete(NY attack), Shotgun attack here, mentally ill everywhere.

What? I’ve owned a gun since I was a little kid and there is absolutely no way I’m carrying one into Church.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106889

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What? I’ve owned a gun since I was a little kid and there is absolutely no way I’m carrying one into Church.

Yep.
Sorry, I’m not doing it. And I own what most folks would call an arsenal.
I’m glad they had armed security, and dude can shoot. But the parade of armed white guys coming up at the Church of Christ...well, I wasn’t surprised. Sad that there was a shooter. Sad that the church needed armed security. Sad that there were multiple churchgoers packing. We are a broken fucking country.
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David Dennison

David Dennison 19534

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


Yep.
Sorry, I’m not doing it. And I own what most folks would call an arsenal.
I’m glad they had armed security, and dude can shoot. But the parade of armed white guys coming up at the Church of Christ...well, I wasn’t surprised. Sad that there was a shooter. Sad that the church needed armed security. Sad that there were multiple churchgoers packing. We are a broken fucking country.

There are people who think it's a great thing that this country has devolved into a mess where need to go everywhere strapped.

Fuck that, and I too own what would be considered a small arsenal.

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tx 3 putt

tx 3 putt 78676

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, zork said:

video, graphic violence, of shooting.  look in upper middle of the frame.  it is boom, boom, boom, and a flurry of churchgoers descend on that part of the sanctuary guns drawn:

  Hide contents

 

 

damn that first shooter had some damn good training. never flinched and dropped that douche bag in one shot

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pacman

pacman 7505

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

There are people who think it's a great thing that this country has devolved into a mess where need to go everywhere strapped.

Fuck that, and I too own what would be considered a small arsenal.

People like their spaghetti westerns so much they want to live them...

 

Evacuation training for churches coming soon.

Edited by pacman
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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 29225

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29 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

damn that first shooter had some damn good training. never flinched and dropped that douche bag in one shot

article said he was a former fbi agent.  would make sense considering the shot.  he's also the one who nudged him with his foot and grabbed the shotgun.

so...a gunman kills 1 in a church, and likely would've killed a couple dozen (if not for other armed texans) and this just a few months after twitter acct related to the president tweets a video featuring a photoshopped trump-head onto the colin firth character from kingsman, where he goes crazy in a church and murders about 50 people - also photoshopped to look like real people and organizations.

2020 is gonna be fun.

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NWBuck

NWBuck 8629

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I’m glad they had armed security, and dude can shoot. But the parade of armed white guys coming up at the Church of Christ...well, I wasn’t surprised. Sad that there was a shooter. Sad that the church needed armed security. Sad that there were multiple churchgoers packing. We are a broken fucking country.

I don't think I'll ever be able to understand a faith tradition which believes that having a musical instrument in their sanctuary is an abomination before God, but bringing weapons to worship is OK because you might need to kill someone. 

Even more disturbing is when we live in a nation where the second part might be accurate, as it was today. 

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formermav43

formermav43 4628

Posted
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17 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

I don't think I'll ever be able to understand a faith tradition which believes that having a musical instrument in their sanctuary is an abomination before God, but bringing weapons to worship is OK because you might need to kill someone. 

Churches of Christ are autonomous. It’s tendentious to make those sorts of claims about “a faith tradition” as a whole. 

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workswithseed

workswithseed 2204

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25 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

I don't think I'll ever be able to understand a faith tradition which believes that having a musical instrument in their sanctuary is an abomination before God, but bringing weapons to worship is OK because you might need to kill someone. 

Even more disturbing is when we live in a nation where the second part might be accurate, as it was today. 

Apparently the instrument wouldn't have saved them from the gunmen, but the gun did. 

 

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NWBuck

NWBuck 8629

Posted
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Churches of Christ are autonomous. It’s tendentious to make those sorts of claims about “a faith tradition” as a whole. 

True, there are many streams of the Stone-Campbell tradition, including congregations who hold that all worship music should be a capella with no instruments present within the sanctuary. 

This church (based on both the YouTube videos of prior services they've posted and information I've received from several friends of mine who work at Abilene and Lubbock Christian Universities) is a part of this non-instrumental tradition. It's a tradition that's difficult for me to understand. 

Sorry for any confusion stemming from my previous post and word choices. 

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NWBuck

NWBuck 8629

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10 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Apparently the instrument wouldn't have saved them from the gunmen, but the gun did. 

 

Yup. 

There's a much deeper conversation here about divine providence and God's will, but we can have that another day. 

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formermav43

formermav43 4628

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2 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

True, there are many streams of the Stone-Campbell tradition, including congregations who hold that all worship music should be a capella with no instruments present within the sanctuary. 

This church (based on both the YouTube videos of prior services they've posted and information I've received from several friends of mine who work at Abilene and Lubbock Christian Universities) is a part of this non-instrumental tradition. It's a tradition that's difficult for me to understand. 

Sorry for any confusion stemming from my previous post and word choices. 

I could nitpick the statement about instruments being an abomination, though that wasn’t really my point. (Though, to you finding it difficult to understand, I’d point out that, historically, it’s the ecumenical position of the broad stream of Christianity-it’s called a cappella for a reason).

But I was really thinking primarily of the second part, that “a faith tradition” believes “it’s OK to bring weapons to worship because you might need to kill someone.” Obviously, THIS congregation thinks it’s OK. No disputing that. But I’m not sure you can say anything about a consensus on the issue.

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NWBuck

NWBuck 8629

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5 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

I could nitpick the statement about instruments being an abomination, though that wasn’t really my point. (Though, to you finding it difficult to understand, I’d point out that, historically, it’s the ecumenical position of the broad stream of Christianity-it’s called a cappella for a reason).

But I was really thinking primarily of the second part, that “a faith tradition” believes “it’s OK to bring weapons to worship because you might need to kill someone.” Obviously, THIS congregation thinks it’s OK. No disputing that. But I’m not sure you can say anything about a consensus on the issue.

Great clarification, and you're absolutely correct. Thanks. 

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Mole

Mole 4339

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Posted

Good shot by the security guy. Not as good work by the guy running up the middle aisle pointing his gun at half the congregation.

Sad situation. It could just be perception and the way we consume news, but it sure feels like we’re all collectively losing our minds and society is breaking down.

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Goredho

Goredho 17652

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Glad this played out like it did. The killer seemed strange, almost hesitant, and he certainly could have killed more in the pews adjacent to him if his primary concern was a maximum body count.  As others said, great shot by the armed parishioner to end the threat.

But...

The pro-gun culture that is going to hail this as a “countless lives were saved” victory is the same one that enabled this lunatic to murder two people going to church.  If you value gun ownership, demand an investment in measures to keep them out of the hands of people that will use them for this purpose.  Otherwise, they will regulated away eventually.

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jkates

jkates 336

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10 minutes ago, Goredho said:

The pro-gun culture that is going to hail this as a “countless lives were saved” victory is the same one that enabled this lunatic to murder two people going to church.  If you value gun ownership, demand an investment in measures to keep them out of the hands of people that will use them for this purpose.  Otherwise, they will regulated away eventually.

That's a bizarre first sentence, full of emotion but lacking legs. What about the pro-gun culture enabled this lunatic to have a shotgun and/or made him use it at this church?

As to the 2nd sentence, plenty of pro-gun (really, pro-2A) folks - including the NRA, IIRC - argue for things like gun violence restraining orders. It's myopic to equate not supporting your preferred gun policies with inaction or enabling something like this.

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11402

Posted
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

You’re better than that.

i'm not defending dennison for his posts on that thread, but i do not think having an honest discussion about guns in church is a political discussion. i'll discuss this in a subsequent post.

i also note that every time one of these shooting happens, the daily texan thread is full of people who are all in on ccl and good guys with guns, etc, and that's an okay area of discussion.  we also let comments like "religion of peace" go when it's a muslim attack. 

i just find that the loudest complainers of "cloak rooming bada bing" don't see the plank in their own eye when it comes to politicizing things. 

please note this is just my stupid opinion, and opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one, and it's full of shit.

Edited by hayden_horn
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GW Hayduke

GW Hayduke 1957

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, jkates said:

That's a bizarre first sentence, full of emotion but lacking legs. What about the pro-gun culture enabled this lunatic to have a shotgun and/or made him use it at this church?

As to the 2nd sentence, plenty of pro-gun (really, pro-2A) folks - including the NRA, IIRC - argue for things like gun violence restraining orders. It's myopic to equate not supporting your preferred gun policies with inaction or enabling something like this.

You should read his second sentence along with his first sentence and try to be less sensitive.

The shooter used a firearm. Firearms are readily available in our society due in part to pro-gun culture. Pro-gun culture resists addressing this problem, increasing the likelihood these types of events occur again. This shouldn’t be a controversial take or anything that should be disputed.

I’m not sure if the below video has been posted; but it provides quality insight.

The bottom line is that the trained volunteer security guard (seemingly the guy being reported as ex-FBI) did what a security guard needed to do, while all the other congregates that pulled their weapons decreased the safety of others - and notably one guy got shot likely because he tried to pull out his firearm. 

This is a perfect example why we need armed, trained security personnel and not joe random’s running around pointing guns at people.

 

Edited by GW Hayduke
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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 47160

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I'd be less concerned about good guys with guns if they could all shoot like that LEO does.  I still think it's a flawed concept, but holy smokes he was cool as a cucumber. 

Honest question, as I don't shoot:  is that distance similar to the distance one trains at in most ranges?  Seeing it all go down, it looked like a (metaphorical) mile.

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11402

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Posted

ok, so to address the actual situation: it's a sad thing all around. 

when there is an increasingly rare situation when i sit in a church (catholic, usually, since i am one), i'm not thinking about my gun, because i do not have my gun.

would christ want his people armed in his house of worship?

this is the guy that preached peace and martyrdom. he laid down his life to make a point. so did his followers. 

i understand those of you who want to defend kith and kin no matter the situation. my point is where are we as a country where our churches need to have clandestine security teams of ccl holders? is this really the solution?

i know this case will be used as support for ccls and "good guys with guns" but i would argue that this case in an outlier. this dude was amazing and did not miss. and i hate to play in hypotheticals, but what if he did miss? what if we have more good guys with guns, and a dozen pull out and shoot in a dozen different directions, all aiming at the shooter and two hit him? where do the ten other bullets go?

this is my main concern with the "good guys with guns" argument against some kind of meaningful gun control. please note i did not say "the government is coming for your precious guns and ammo." but this is a nearly daily occurrence, and the only answer i seem to here is more guns. that does not seem to be working, despite this cool customer who did drop a shooter.

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workswithseed

workswithseed 2204

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13 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i'm not defending dennison for his posts on that thread, but i do not think having an honest discussion about guns in church is a political discussion. i'll discuss this in a subsequent post.

i also note that every time one of these shooting happens, the daily texan thread is full of people who are all in on ccl and good guys with guns, etc, and that's an okay area of discussion.  we also let comments like "religion of peace" go when it's a muslim attack. 

i just find that the loudest complainers of "cloak rooming bada bing" don't see the plank in their own eye when it comes to politicizing things. 

please note this is just my stupid opinion, and opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one, and it's full of shit.

I feel like today's Surly is the yesterday's Shaggy except opposite train of thought.

It's interesting, but I'm still glad of our pretty libertarian overlords.

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jimmyjazz

jimmyjazz 47160

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Posted
12 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i know this case will be used as support for ccls and "good guys with guns" but i would argue that this case in an outlier. this dude was amazing and did not miss. and i hate to play in hypotheticals, but what if he did miss? what if we have more good guys with guns, and a dozen pull out and shoot in a dozen different directions, all aiming at the shooter and two hit him? where do the ten other bullets go?

I think the video pretty clearly shows how plenty of good guys with guns aren't actually trained to handle situations like this.  In particular, the guy in the maroon shirt and the guy who came up to the downed shooter from behind were not being particularly careful with their weapons.  Had the shooter not been taken out immediately, this could have gone way worse than it did.

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DDD Dad

DDD Dad 14648

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I think the video pretty clearly shows how plenty of good guys with guns aren't actually trained to handle situations like this.  In particular, the guy in the maroon shirt and the guy who came up to the downed shooter from behind were not being particularly careful with their weapons.  Had the shooter not been taken out immediately, this could have gone way worse than it did.

As in, lots of friendly fire.  Thank goodness that didn't happen.

Also, if it hasn't already been noted, F Dan Patrick and Greg Abbott for political grandstanding within hours.  These are the same guys who talk about how we shouldn't politicize mass shootings and send thoughts and prayers to the families of the victims when the narrative doesn't fit their policies.

Edited by DDD Dad
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