Active shooter thread

[workswithseed 2110]

1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

Freedom seeds

[Neonmoon 38130]

9 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Well you see he has a point.  It's poignant, because 99.9999999999999% of them will never be used in a mass killing.  But because that .0000000000001%, we must change everything.

Aka “I’m a responsible gun owner” argument 

 Heroin, drinking and driving, fireworks in the city, are illegal because 0000000000001% are idiots.

[fattyflattie 4638]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

Aka “I’m a responsible gun owner” argument 

 Heroin, drinking and driving, fireworks in the city, are illegal because 0000000000001% are idiots.

Dems da breaks. They should have gotten into the constitution, I suppose. 

[Anastasis 23481]

2 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

 Heroin, drinking and driving, fireworks in the city, are illegal because 0000000000001% are idiots.

Decimal places are hard. 

[henrygandorf 29194]

8 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Dems da breaks. They should have gotten into the constitution, I suppose. 

i suppose you live your whole life like it's 1789?  your musket collection must be the envy of all who see it.

societies have laws.  laws are made because of the dumbest and least responsible among us, not the other way around.

[washparkhorn 9939]

We have been through this so many times. We now pantomime our excuses. And it happens over and over again. 

The Boulder murders had a trained police officer on the scene as it was ongoing - and we lost 10, including the cop. The murderer didn't injure them, he killed them. None of the four air ambulances transported anyone.  At least one double tap in the parking lot. 

I must presume the murderer had an efficient tool for his plans.

Any mechanism available to prevent those tools from reaching the hands of a murderer?

[fattyflattie 4638]

2 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

laws are made because of the dumbest and least responsible among us, not the other way around.

Explain how we still have aggy. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by fattyflattie

[tchookem 3905]

you could just tell us the story again about how your guns have never been involved in a mass shooting.  i liked the part about how your guns aren't the problem so guns in general must not be a problem.

More like "My obsession with guns isn't thre problem, so America's obsession with guns isn't a problem."

[henrygandorf 29194]

8 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Explain how we still have aggy. 

why do you think they're all confined to an easily avoidable small shithick town in the middle of nowhere?  you think that was an accident?

[henrygandorf 29194]

49 minutes ago, markstanco said:

52 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

you could just tell us the story again about how your guns have never been involved in a mass shooting.  i liked the part about how your guns aren't the problem so guns in general must not be a problem.

Do knives next.

when knives are involved in a mass knifing i will do knives.

[DDD Dad 14347]

I think I'm gonna buy a reloader.

Remind me what part of Oregon I need to avoid?

[DDD Dad 14347]

2 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Agree with all this, but two things:
1) The AWB didn’t disarm anybody or get any guns off the street. I know you know that, I’m just pointing out that it’s not clear that the AWB accomplished much other than driving a black/grey market. And guns like the Mini-14 was specifically exempted, despite literally being the gun from the A-Team. 
2) context is important - the AWB wouldn’t have passed without the crack epidemic and the spectre of criminals armed with MAC-10’s.

 

F6795D2A-0663-4A63-A21F-180B4B2F7721.webp

Edited March 24, 2021 by DDD Dad

[workswithseed 2110]

6 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

when knives are involved in a mass knifing i will do knives.

Medford

[Brisketexan 105274]

We have been through this so many times. We now pantomime our excuses. And it happens over and over again. 
The Boulder murders had a trained police officer on the scene as it was ongoing - and we lost 10, including the cop. The murderer didn't injure them, he killed them. None of the four air ambulances transported anyone.  At least one double tap in the parking lot. 
I must presume the murderer had an efficient tool for his plans.
Any mechanism available to prevent those tools from reaching the hands of a murderer?

Nope, nothing we can do! Remember, there are two extreme positions: 1) ban all firearms, and 2) do absolutely nothing. I mean, there’s also a lot of room in between, but why even discuss it? Position 2 has won. Completely and totally. We’ve chosen the extreme position, and there’s no compromise.

Just keep ordering body bags and shut up.

[JimmyJames 12271]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Nope, nothing we can do! Remember, there are two extreme positions: 1) ban all firearms, and 2) do absolutely nothing. I mean, there’s also a lot of room in between, but why even discuss it? Position 2 has won. Completely and totally. We’ve chosen the extreme position, and there’s no compromise.

Just keep ordering body bags and shut up.

I dunno. I’m thinking the Dan Patrick bathroom bill might actually fix this problem for good. Maybe even the electric grid problem too? 
 

It’s worth a shot. 

[wildcat09 29376]

1 hour ago, markstanco said:

2 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

Where do those guns in Mexico come from? Texas mostly.
Chicago guns are mostly from Indiana.
Again, make it harder to buy bullets. That firearm ain't making fire without a round in the chamber.

That is amazing that you think Indiana and Texas is the problem. I can honestly say I don't have a reply to that.

Hey man, whatever happened with that thing about typing three digits and covid into google or whatever?

[washparkhorn 9939]

7 hours ago, markstanco said:

8 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

Where do those guns in Mexico come from? Texas mostly.
Chicago guns are mostly from Indiana.
Again, make it harder to buy bullets. That firearm ain't making fire without a round in the chamber.

That is amazing that you think Indiana and Texas is the problem. I can honestly say I don't have a reply to that.

Geography is a weakness for many Americans. You are not alone.

Quote

So why are Americans so infamously bad at geography? Is it a symptom of what some say is the country's creeping isolationism?

Terry Garcia, an executive vice president at National Geographic, thinks the answer is more simple.

"Geography is not consistently taught in the United States, that's one of the problems," Garcia said. "Pretty much after the 7th grade here in the United States, geography isn't taught."

Travel and foreign languages are other factors that seem to affect geographic literacy. The 2002 survey showed that in the highest-scoring countries more than 70 percent had traveled internationally in the last three years. In the United States, that figure was only 20 percent.

https://www.rferl.org/a/1068259.html (2006 message to our allies about our geography illiteracy through Radio Free Europe).

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

Until they do. Some of those firearms in Chicago were stolen. Same for Mexico. 

What happens when you die? Get incapacitated due to old age? Are they going to cease to exist?

I can't control what happens to mine when I part this mortal coil.

My kids and grandkids will fight over them.  Hell, because guns and ammo are in the same room, they'll probably all just spontaneously start shooting, right?

Damn, and like that my line will have ended... because guns are dangerous like that.  Eradication of my family or guns is quite the choice, eh?

Oh, wait...guns have existed within our family for multiple generations and none of us has ever committed a crime* with a gun.  How can that fucking be?

 

* gun crime being an act of violence or even brandishing, to my knowledge.  We have possessed some modified firearms that have a purpose on private property.

Edited March 24, 2021 by slorch

[Bookman 4639]

The Republican strategy of doing nothing is eventually going to fail. Columbine was 22 years ago, which means for 22 years this has been an issue for schoolchildren. The people can only take so much, and at the breaking point it will be too late for Republicans to play defense.

[DigglerontheHoof 21212]

7 minutes ago, Bookman said:

The Republican strategy of doing nothing is eventually going to fail. Columbine was 22 years ago, which means for 22 years this has been an issue for schoolchildren. The people can only take so much, and at the breaking point it will be too late for Republicans to play defense.

Once my generation (GenX) dies off, things will probably start to really change.  Until then, it'll be a clusterfuck. 

[52-80 19226]

9 hours ago, Anastasis said:

OK trijicon man. Your takes are always the best. 

he's just worried that if manslaughter were legal, he'd be shot first.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11820]

1 hour ago, Bookman said:

The Republican strategy of doing nothing is eventually going to fail. Columbine was 22 years ago, which means for 22 years this has been an issue for schoolchildren. The people can only take so much, and at the breaking point it will be too late for Republicans to play defense.

They’re too dumb to understand that the perpetual failure to give an inch usually results in the taking of a mile. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

A uniquely American problem. Why?

[Anastasis 23481]

trans-fatty acids. 

[HenryJames 66160]

8 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

It’s worth a shot. 

[Anastasis 23481]

Was not aware the Colorado had universal background check requirements. Asshole was mentally ill, had a prior assault conviction, and was apparently on FBI radar. None of that flagged the transfer apparently. 

[Llano Estacado 1257]

A uniquely American problem. Why?

Show your work. Do we lead the world dependent on how you bracket the statistics, sometimes. But mass shootings aren’t uniquely American.

Norway camp shooting and Christchurch mosque made international news, but school shootings occur fairly frequently in Brazil and old Soviet countries.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/mass-shootings-by-country

[Helobious 9464]

7 minutes ago, Llano Estacado said:

 

Show your work. Do we lead the world dependent on how you bracket the statistics, sometimes. But mass shootings aren’t uniquely American.

Norway camp shooting and Christchurch mosque made international news, but school shootings occur fairly frequently in Brazil and old Soviet countries.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/mass-shootings-by-country

 

That study was done by John Lott, well known gun advocate. Also doesn’t account for mass shootings after 2015. 5 of our 10 deadliest mass shootings ever have occurred since 2015. 

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

30 minutes ago, Llano Estacado said:

Brazil and old Soviet countries.

That’s some pretty sweet company. 

[TwiceHorn 31529]

16 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

We'll have to agree to disagree.  First off, from a constitutional jurisprudence standpoint (and not to stray from the general direction of this thread), the last 30 years or so (maybe longer?) of second amendment cases reflect a sharp divergence from 200 years of interpretation of whether the second amendment is a private versus public right and if so the extent to which it protects any right to bear arms.  Given the current makeup of the SC, I don't see that changing any time soon.  That said, I still think there would be ways to implement legislation to limit what constitutes a reasonable limit on the type of weapons that may be owned legally by individual citizens/residents/etc.  I'm not going to go down a rabbit hole to figure out what that would look like, but if we can figure out how to put a man on the moon, I would have to think we could figure out a way to draft legislation that can address the issue appropriately.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.  Primarily in that there was no Second Amendment jurisprudence to speak of until the 20th century.  Perhaps academic thought, but I don't think so.  

Which leads I think to the central problem with guns in America.  Here, they were a way of life for the first half of the existence of the country.  If you could afford one, you had one, and affording one was a priority.  Whereas in most countries other than the US, firearms were creatures of the military and the nobility, notably in England.  The founders were hostile to the notion of standing armies, but acknowledged that that presented issues of "readiness."  An armed populace was deemed a reasonable substitute.  The founders specifically cited England's rules against firearm ownership, premised on game control, as undesirable and tyrannical.

The notion that citizens were permitted to keep arms only for prospective military service, a la Switzerland, is just counterfactual, both as a matter of the intention of the drafters and 

Moreover, life in the United States for many was a frontier life where guns were a matter of survival, both in terms of hunting and in terms of defense, not so much from criminals, or even a tyrannical government, but from predators of the four-legged variety.

It's difficult to get that genie back in the bottle, both in terms of a "cowboys and indians" mentality of parts of the populace and in terms of the sheer number of guns out there as a result of purposeful non-regulation for 150 years.

 

All of that said, I don't see that consideration of it as a "public" or "private" right is dispositive of the issue of reasonable regulation of firearms.

Edited March 24, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Dahobbs 17654]

34 minutes ago, Llano Estacado said:

 

Show your work. Do we lead the world dependent on how you bracket the statistics, sometimes. But mass shootings aren’t uniquely American.

Norway camp shooting and Christchurch mosque made international news, but school shootings occur fairly frequently in Brazil and old Soviet countries.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/mass-shootings-by-country

 

Is your point that guns are the problem? Or that we shouldn't aim higher than Brazil and old Soviet block countries?

[Beau Vine 54381]

14 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Something just occurred to me. If Icono horn/Texan or whatever he goes by now goes even more crazy and shoots up some place is the shag/surly partially responsible? It’s not like we don’t know he’s nuts. 

Is he really nuts, or is he just mind-numbingly stupid?

[Llano Estacado 1257]

That study was done by John Lott, well known gun advocate. Also doesn’t account for mass shootings after 2015. 5 of our 10 deadliest mass shootings ever have occurred since 2015. 

Agreed. If you’ve got better numbers post them. As mentioned, international stats are hard, Lankford and Lott have been going back and forth on how to bracket them since the 2015 talking point. “Mass shootings are uniquely American”. They aren’t.

Do we lead the world in some statistical categories, yes. Are they significant statistical portion of US gun violence problem, no.

So we’ll all retreat into our “confiscate and ban all guns” vs 2A “shall not be infringed” camps. And have these same discussions next time. Talking points will be spewed on social media. Meanwhile any action to actually reduce our gun violence problem won’t occur, because one side wrongfully fears threaded barrels and pistol grips and the other side will point to politicians clamoring for full confiscation from lawful owners, and won’t give an inch for that wrongful fear.

[YChang 3462]

Slorch and others tell me more about fixing the root cause. Not trying to be a dick, but y’all make it sound like it’s a panacea for all of society’s ills. Also what about gun control laws helping with this effort? Imagine if there’s less strife over mass shootings... perhaps people can pay more attention to the other 100 problems they’re facing. I dunno, seems like we need both. 

Also why are gun control laws framed as it’s not effective at eliminating all shootings? Instead of prevent or reduce? Why does it need to be a zero sum approach?

 

[DDD Dad 14347]

19 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

All of that said, I don't see that consideration of it as a "public" or "private" right is dispositive of the issue of reasonable regulation of firearms.

It isn't dispositive, but it certainly is easier to regulate firearms if the second amendment is viewed as a public right.  As a private right the level of scrutiny over any regulation becomes far more intense.

[GW Hayduke 1953]

5 minutes ago, Llano Estacado said:

 

Agreed. If you’ve got better numbers post them. As mentioned, international stats are hard, Lankford and Lott have been going back and forth on how to bracket them since the 2015 talking point. “Mass shootings are uniquely American”. They aren’t.

Do we lead the world in some statistical categories, yes. Are they significant statistical portion of US gun violence problem, no.

So we’ll all retreat into our “confiscate and ban all guns” vs 2A “shall not be infringed” camps. And have these same discussions next time. Talking points will be spewed on social media. Meanwhile any action to actually reduce our gun violence problem won’t occur, because one side wrongfully fears threaded barrels and pistol grips and the other side will point to politicians clamoring for full confiscation from lawful owners, and won’t give an inch for that wrongful fear.

 

This is why people think the pro gun crowd are dumb.

Share some slanted data from Lott and make the argument that firearms aren't a problem in the US because look at Brazil and the old soviet countries.

Then say that statistics are meaningless because they are hard.

Then paint the opposition as extreme and absurd and label their position as "confiscate and ban all guns."

Blame the media.

Finally, be defeatist because BoTh SiDeS act in bad faith.

[Nivek 16979]

12 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Well, “AR class” is a shitty descriptor at best.  As far as making points goes, where were the calls to disarm everyone of their .30 carbines during the mass shootings of yore?  Seems to me up until recently we’ve been able to handle semi auto “AR class” guns as a society quite well.  We’ve had millions of semi auto rifles in the general population’s hands (including actual military weaponry like the .30 carbine and Garand),  mail order at that, for decades with little issue. 
 

We have a sick people problem.

eta: mini 14 and mini 30’s were staples in this country and found under the beds and the backs of closets across the country. They may have come about after the first AR variants, but there were damn sure more popular for a long time. 

AR class is not such a shitty description because most of us can understand what I am referring to without the need to lawyerize every detail about the weapons.  Assault Rifle is a term coined by Hitler and it also somewhat vague, but we really all know that it is about sending a bunch of lead quickly and accurately with more capacity while maintaining mobility.  The STG44 used a less powerful cartridge than Mauser K98 but the advantages of the STG made it a formidable weapon design which is why the Soviets copied it and came out with the AK47 and moved away from their rifles and SMGs.    I believe the BAR was designed to be hip-fired when advancing because of the weight, as opposed to being shoulder fired for any duration (while not prone) so it is really more of a LMG than an assault rifle.

Yes, Donkey is correct that people can cause havoc with all kinds of weapons.  I could cause havoc with gasoline and frozen orange juice.   Since people are not making homemade napalm there is really little need to address this non-existent concern.   Assault Rifles (AR15s and that platform) are being used in mass killing sprees.  And unstable people are gaining access to them and using them on people or children in public places.   The false dichotomy of 'we cannot prevent all gun crimes so we should not bother with creating barriers to inhibit criminals is absurd.'  

Amazing pattern here: republicans love to put up barriers to non-existent voter fraud, but balk at putting up barriers to firearms that have lead to mass murders that won't take 22000 hours for find evidence of.  

Anyways, I have to go back to my backyard anthrax lab and get some more forever stamps.  

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

4 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Anyways, I have to go back to my backyard anthrax lab and get some more forever stamps.  

[fattyflattie 4638]

My point is, while not as deadly as an AR 15 (although its killed many  many more people), the .30 carbine was basically the precursor.  Even more confusing, it was one of the few sa rifles that was "OK" in Feinsteins bill; that doesn't make sense to me but whatever. 

9 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Anyways, I have to go back to my backyard anthrax lab and get some more forever stamps. 

Careful.  Don't want to end up on a red flag list for some dumb joke on the internet. 

[fattyflattie 4638]

4 hours ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Once my generation (GenX) dies off, things will probably start to really change.  Until then, it'll be a clusterfuck. 

Are you speaking to the rules, or actual possession of firearms?  Because last year was a banner year for "new gun owners".  Not sure of the age on those purchasers, but I'm not sure actual ownership/possession is trending down anytime soon.   New rules and regs, they'll be here before too long. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33887]

Perhaps the focus should be on the "well regulated" part instead of the "bear arms" part

[DonkeyCigars 143]

31 minutes ago, Nivek said:

AR class is not such a shitty description because most of us can understand what I am referring to without the need to lawyerize every detail about the weapons.  Assault Rifle is a term coined by Hitler and it also somewhat vague, but we really all know that it is about sending a bunch of lead quickly and accurately with more capacity while maintaining mobility.  The STG44 used a less powerful cartridge than Mauser K98 but the advantages of the STG made it a formidable weapon design which is why the Soviets copied it and came out with the AK47 and moved away from their rifles and SMGs.    I believe the BAR was designed to be hip-fired when advancing because of the weight, as opposed to being shoulder fired for any duration (while not prone) so it is really more of a LMG than an assault rifle.

Yes, Donkey is correct that people can cause havoc with all kinds of weapons.  I could cause havoc with gasoline and frozen orange juice.   Since people are not making homemade napalm there is really little need to address this non-existent concern.   Assault Rifles (AR15s and that platform) are being used in mass killing sprees.  And unstable people are gaining access to them and using them on people or children in public places.   The false dichotomy of 'we cannot prevent all gun crimes so we should not bother with creating barriers to inhibit criminals is absurd.'  

Amazing pattern here: republicans love to put up barriers to non-existent voter fraud, but balk at putting up barriers to firearms that have lead to mass murders that won't take 22000 hours for find evidence of.  

Anyways, I have to go back to my backyard anthrax lab and get some more forever stamps.  

Edited March 24, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[Lurch 5931]

We solve it here yet? Same time, same place next week?

[Lurch 5931]

Perhaps the focus should be on the "well regulated" part instead of the "bear arms" part

[DonkeyCigars 143]

This is older, first read it yesterday on Readers Digest of all places, but originally written in Esquire: https://www.rd.com/article/stop-mass-shooters/

Essentially it outlines the problem of mass shooters in that there is a "gap period" which happens after being made aware of someone who is capable or psychologically prone or could be predicted to be a mass shooter and before they are actually are a mass shooter by acting out. Legally there isn't much of anything you can do. Elliot Rodgers was confronted and had police/wellness check done a week before he shot up the place. You can't thoughtcrime / pre-crime people, you can't detain them involuntarily, it's a problem in that there is no real proactive measures once these people enter the "gap period". It's 1000% reactive at that point.

So knowing that there are two proactive measures you can try. 1) Gun reform 2) Mental wellness health programs to identify and work with these kids/people, or both.

IMHO the problem I think is in the thought leadership. We don't have our best and brightest working on these two problems to create a strategy that is good and will be effective and have cost controls. All those folks are busy advising F500 CEO's on how to digitally transform and create new ways to make money from people. I still say that, like with education and the huge problem of public schools, if some really smart people and teams dedicated energy and efforts on these things, they could be the next Nobel Laureates. The problems are that complex, difficult and meaningful. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[B00M 6457]

1 hour ago, GW Hayduke said:

This is why people think the pro gun crowd are dumb.

[TexArcher 38028]

2 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

This is why people think the pro gun crowd are dumb.

*is

[Guest Lobo]

14 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

*is

*less dumb

*fewer dumb

[Nivek 16979]

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

My point is, while not as deadly as an AR 15 (although its killed many  many more people), the .30 carbine was basically the precursor.  Even more confusing, it was one of the few sa rifles that was "OK" in Feinsteins bill; that doesn't make sense to me but whatever. 

Careful.  Don't want to end up on a red flag list for some dumb joke on the internet. 

Are you saying that would be a black flag on my morning or would it be a black flag on my day?

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

42 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

This is older, first read it yesterday on Readers Digest of all places, but originally written in Esquire: https://www.rd.com/article/stop-mass-shooters/

Essentially it outlines the problem of mass shooters in that there is a "gap period" which happens after being made aware of someone who is capable or psychologically prone or could be predicted to be a mass shooter and before they are actually are a mass shooter by acting out. Legally there isn't much of anything you can do. Elliot Rodgers was confronted and had police/wellness check done a week before he shot up the place. You can't thoughtcrime / pre-crime people, you can't detain them involuntarily, it's a problem in that there is no real proactive measures once these people enter the "gap period". It's 1000% reactive at that point.

So knowing that there are two proactive measures you can try. 1) Gun reform 2) Mental wellness health programs to identify and work with these kids/people, or both.

IMHO the problem I think is in the thought leadership. We don't have our best and brightest working on these two problems to create a strategy that is good and will be effective and have cost controls. All those folks are busy advising F500 CEO's on how to digitally transform and create new ways to make money from people. I still say that, like with education and the huge problem of public schools, if some really smart people and teams dedicated energy and efforts on these things, they could be the next Nobel Laureates. The problems are that complex, difficult and meaningful. 

Couple of comments regarding your post. One relates to your section on the 'gap.' That is a very difficult thing for parents--they may be aware that their child has issues, but when children reach a certain age--*poof* no longer able to have guardianship over medical decisions w/o permission and that permission occurs at a time when a young person may wish to cut the strings. In addition, some mental health issues such as schizophrenia don't really manifest until young adulthood, precisely at that time when a young person may no longer be physically at home. Very tricky to navigate.

Which leads to the next comment. In many *weapon/mental health discussions, women get shut out or dismissed. One is that they are presumed to be primarily on the 'no weapons evaaar' platform, which is not necessarily the case. Another is that the field of children/teen mental health is again, composed by higher percentages of females and is not 'valued' in the same way that other sectors are. Especially in systems where the needs for basic instruction is high and staff are few, the ability to have a holistic and community centered education system that gets families the mental health resources they need is just not there. Frankly, I don't think the desire is there (because it takes time and money money money). Many citizens just want the problem people to go away, not realizing that this is not going to happen.

Some of the gun reform groups are trying to have a dialogue, but they get shoved aside in the louder discourse. Moms Demand doesn't want to take everyone's guns, but they do want loopholes closed, and some stricter laws on the books so that responsible gun ownership continues to be the norm. It's about ending the violence, not the weapons.

 

*Not trying to offend anyone with gender role/accusations of bias.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Mrs Whiggins