Active shooter thread

[Hank Kingsley 21796]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Pass a constitutional amendment then if that is the precedent. 

I'll get right on it. 

[workswithseed 2204]

1 hour ago, fattyflattie said:

Did it say .22 caliber, or specifically .22lr?  
 

I know this board always balks when you get specific with regards to guns. But that distinction is pretty fucking important as there are a bunch of mass shooting victims that have died from a .224 caliber bullet.  Fired from an AR15, of course. 

I couldn't find anything recent, and it just said .22

[Anastasis 23723]

12 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

I'll get right on it. 

The royal “you”.  

[Hank Kingsley 21796]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The royal “you”.  

The GOP is just playing kiss ass to gun lovers in order to get your vote. Even they don't really believe the bullshit they are spouting. It's up to people like you to make a difference. 

[Anastasis 23723]

1 minute ago, Hank Kingsley said:

The GOP is just playing kiss ass to gun lovers in order to get your vote. Even they don't really believe the bullshit they are spouting. It's up to people like you to make a difference. 

I’ll get right on it. 

[Hank Kingsley 21796]

Just now, Anastasis said:

I’ll get right on it. 

Good. Voting is actually something we civilians can do to make a difference. 

[Anastasis 23723]

6 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Good. Voting is actually something we civilians can do to make a difference. 

I’m happy to include a “sane outcomes oriented approach to  gun violence” dimension to my voting decision matrix. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Anastasis

[Hank Kingsley 21796]

Just now, Anastasis said:

I’m happy to include a “sane outcomes oriented gun control” dimension to my voting decision matrix. 

Great, that's what the vast majority of us are asking for. 

[Slacks 7066]

On 3/23/2021 at 10:54 AM, dcar00 said:

should I hope they aren't white?  or should I hope dumbasses don't murder people?

after the murder has happened, what matters?

[StassneyHorn 6780]

Whoever wants to buy a gun has to win a game of tic tac toe against Kamala. Makes the VP important and gives them something to do.

[Brisketexan 106945]

18 hours ago, Anastasis said:

I’m happy to include a “sane outcomes oriented approach to  gun violence” dimension to my voting decision matrix. 

 

18 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Great, that's what the vast majority of us are asking for. 

None of what you said matters.

Remember, two extremes: zero regulations, ever, vs. take all the guns.

One of those positions has won.  Completely.  It holds 100% of the territory.  If you want an outcome OTHER than that, then that's the ONLY opponent you have.  

[Anastasis 23723]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

None of what you said matters.

Remember, two extremes: zero regulations, ever, vs. take all the guns.

One of those positions has won.  Completely.  It holds 100% of the territory.  If you want an outcome OTHER than that, then that's the ONLY opponent you have.  

Binary thinking is exactly what we need to get us out of this mess (and many others)!

[staboner 5086]

19 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

To every dumbfuck on here that talks about how responsible they are with their own guns:

IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU. 

 

 

i feel you man. you are yelling at America here in such a true fucking sense. could just put this same post on everything that is not getting fixed in America - from healthcare to guns

[Brisketexan 106945]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Binary thinking is exactly what we need to get us out of this mess (and many others)!

Fighting against a position that has no traction whatsoever just as hard as you fight against a position that is un-fucking-defeated and controls 100% of the turf is DEFINITELY the right approach.  We've been doing that for decades.....with the clear result: "no fucking changes whatsoever" is undefeated.  Keep on keeping on, it's working GREAT.

[Anastasis 23723]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Fighting against a position that has no traction whatsoever

What position is that exactly?

[Brisketexan 106945]

Just now, Anastasis said:

What position is that exactly?

Regulation.  Of anything.  Because it leads down the slippery slope meaning THEY'LL TAKE ALL OUR GUNS.  Giving the NRA crowd ANY bandwidth turns that into the discussion, the prospect of any change is utterly defeated, lather, rinse, repeat.

Any approach other than complete and total opposition to the position that occupies 100% of the territory means that the position that holds that territory will never lose an inch.  Don't look at me, look at the decades since Sandy Hook.  Results don't lie.

[Anastasis 23723]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Regulation.  Of anything. 

And where do you see me arguing that?  What I have emphasized is that regulations need to be outcomes oriented, balancing constitutional rights, rather than masturbatory. Some people seem to have a strong preference for masturbatory measures that don't move the needle. 

[Brisketexan 106945]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

And where do you see me arguing that?  What I have emphasized is that regulations need to be outcomes oriented, balancing constitutional rights, rather than masturbatory. Some people seem to have a strong preference for masturbatory measures that don't move the needle. 

To your allies -- the "no regs at all" crowd (and those are your allies, whether you accept it or not), you are singing their song.  Keep singing, they love it.

[Anastasis 23723]

Ah right, your rhetorical strawman. Have fun. 

[GW Hayduke 1957]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

 

None of what you said matters.

Remember, two extremes: zero regulations, ever, vs. take all the guns.

One of those positions has won.  Completely.  It holds 100% of the territory.  If you want an outcome OTHER than that, then that's the ONLY opponent you have.  

[Brisketexan 106945]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Ah right, your rhetorical strawman. Have fun. 

Have fun trying to make any progress.  You know as well as I do that we'll take the same measures we took after a fucking unbalanced fuckstick used an AR-15 to turn an elementary school into an abattoir:  NOTHING.  NOT A GODDAMNED THING.  ZERO.  ZILCH.  NADA.  Same as it ever was.

So, continue to have your pointless internal debate about what hypothetical measure might make sense, and which one just doesn't seem right.  It's a masturbatory fantasy exercise.  Which My Little Pony would be the most fun to ride through the lollipop forest?  That exercise would be just as productive.  And, it would finally out you as a Bronie.

[Anastasis 23723]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Have fun trying to make any progress.  You know as well as I do that we'll take the same measures we took after a fucking unbalanced fuckstick used an AR-15 to turn an elementary school into an abattoir:  NOTHING.  NOT A GODDAMNED THING.  ZERO.  ZILCH.  NADA.  Same as it ever was.

So, continue to have your pointless internal debate about what hypothetical measure might make sense, and which one just doesn't seem right.  It's a masturbatory fantasy exercise.  Which My Little Pony would be the most fun to ride through the lollipop forest?  That exercise would be just as productive.  And, it would finally out you as a Bronie.

[Brisketexan 106945]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I'll hang out waiting for you to tell me why this time, it's different.  Why this time, as opposed to all the other times bodies stacked up, especially those AWESOME times where they were kids at school, things will REALLY change.

 

And, go ahead.....tell us which Pony it would be.....

[Anastasis 23723]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

I'll hang out waiting for you to tell me why this time, it's different.  Why this time, as opposed to all the other times bodies stacked up, especially those AWESOME times where they were kids at school, things will REALLY change.

Where have I argued that anything is different, why this time it REALLY changes? What the fuck are you even talking about?  I am pretty sure that you don't use this nature of strawman in your legal practice.  I am sure that you are quite successful in it, but I am pretty sure this vehicle isn't how you got there. I would hope that most judges have a few brain cells to rub together and don't fall for it. 

 

I have zero expectations wrt actually meaningful gun violence legislation because our system is generally, and particularly at the moment, incapable of producing such. If anything actually gets done, it will be largely ineffective masturbation legislation. Plenty of examples over the last few pages of proposals. Our political system is dysfunctional and unable to actually address real issues in an outcomes oriented way. 

[Brisketexan 106945]

Just now, Anastasis said:

Where have I argued that anything is different, why this time it REALLY changes? What the fuck are you even talking about?  I am pretty sure that you don't use this nature of strawman in your legal practice.  I am sure that you are quite successful in it, but I am pretty sure this vehicle isn't how you got there. I would hope that most judges have a few brain cells to rub together and don't fall for it. 

 

I have zero expectations wrt actually meaningful gun violence legislation because our system is generally, and particularly at the moment, incapable of producing such. If anything actually gets done, it will be largely ineffective masturbation legislation. Plenty of examples over the last few pages of proposals. Our political system is dysfunctional and unable to actually address real issues in an outcomes oriented way. 

So why waste any fucking time discussing it?  It doesn't fucking matter.

We stack up the bodies of innocents like cordwood.  Because that's how we like it.  That's the cold hard truth about who we are as a nation.  Wasting time even discussing solutions in the hypothetical is indulging in a lie and a fantasy.  I'm sick of it.  We just have to admit who we are.  We are people who are just fine with this:

 

The evidence that we're just fine with it?  The big bucket of nothing that we've done to address the issue.

I'm sick of anyone even indulging in the false hope that is a lie that we'll actually do anything about it.  It's a fucking lie, and I'm fucking tired of our national pastime being "constantly lying to ourselves."

[Anastasis 23723]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

So why waste any fucking time discussing it? 

Because we are on a board full of, with noteworthy exceptions, a lot of generally reasonable Texas graduates. A variety of perspectives from different people and reasonable gun owners that are our neighbors.  Just spit balling here.  Or we can just rant against strawmen and sock puppets of our own creation. 

[Brisketexan 106945]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Because we are on a board full of, with noteworthy exceptions, a lot of generally reasonable Texas graduates. A variety of perspectives from different people and reasonable gun owners that are our neighbors.  Just spit balling here.  Or we can just rant against strawmen and sock puppets of our own creation. 

Huh.  I created the fact that we've done, functionally, jack shit to address mass shootings since Columbine?  Man.....I never knew that I was so powerful, able to conjure up a generation of pure American failure by my own sheer will.

From the looks of things, my will's a pretty powerful motherfucker, I guess.  Maybe I should devote 5% of that will to a winning Texas football program?  Judging by the results on the "America does nothing to address mass shootings" front, I should have us making Bama jealous in no time.

[Pato del Muerto 53541]

23 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Pass a constitutional amendment then if that is the precedent. 

Can’t do that. At some point about 55 years ago we decided that the constitution is now perfect, instead of the living document that it had been for the first 180 years of its life. 

[cactusflinthead 27628]

Fuck it. I was gonna post this a couple of days ago.

Adam Lanza put a bullet in his head after he shot out the glass at the elementary.

If that AR and AK and whatever else you just gotta have is worth more than 20 little faces I don't know what else to say.

 

[Goredho 17661]

Awful what happened in Boulder, but I’m not going to lie.  Trump’s presidency and 1/6 (nevar forget) has put me squarely in the “everyone should own an assault rifle” category.

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

1 hour ago, Goredho said:

Awful what happened in Boulder, but I’m not going to lie.  Trump’s presidency and 1/6 (nevar forget) has put me squarely in the “everyone should own an assault rifle” category.

 

That makes me a bit sad. 

[Nicole44 22323]

is it true that 1 % of all gun fatalities are mass shootings? 

[Brisketexan 106945]

3 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

is it true that 1 % of all gun fatalities are mass shootings? 

It's probably not far off.  Suicides are a huge chunk.

But as I noted in a previous post, we are addressing the issue of danger to the "public at large," and that's where we face a particular danger.  There are a few types of gun deaths:

1) suicides.  These don't kill any third party.

2) murders in connection with other crime (this is the vast portion of homicides).  Avoid getting involved in the drug trade, gangs, etc., and you aren't likely to be a victim of a drug deal gone bad.

3) domestic violence murders.  This IS a real risk to many "average people."  That's why there's long been discussion and mechanisms to disarm people who are an ongoing domestic violence threat.

4) mass shootings.  This is something that you are at risk of no matter what you do.  Live your normal life, go to the store, school, whatever.....and there's just a chance that someone is going to walk in and blow you away.  That's a universal concern.  Literally every one of us is at risk of this happening.

Yes, the risks are RELATIVELY low.  We get more bang for our buck by making cars safer, having a better pandemic plan, all sorts of things.  But that doesn't make it NOT a concern.  And a particularly terrifying one, because of the sudden and random nature of it.

 

[Anastasis 23723]

0.2% in 2018. https://health.ucdavis.edu/what-you-can-do/facts.html

Suicide is the vast majority.

[Nicole44 22323]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It's probably not far off.  Suicides are a huge chunk.

But as I noted in a previous post, we are addressing the issue of danger to the "public at large," and that's where we face a particular danger.  There are a few types of gun deaths:

1) suicides.  These don't kill any third party.

2) murders in connection with other crime (this is the vast portion of homicides).  Avoid getting involved in the drug trade, gangs, etc., and you aren't likely to be a victim of a drug deal gone bad.

3) domestic violence murders.  This IS a real risk to many "average people."  That's why there's long been discussion and mechanisms to disarm people who are an ongoing domestic violence threat.

4) mass shootings.  This is something that you are at risk of no matter what you do.  Live your normal life, go to the store, school, whatever.....and there's just a chance that someone is going to walk in and blow you away.  That's a universal concern.  Literally every one of us is at risk of this happening.

Yes, the risks are RELATIVELY low.  We get more bang for our buck by making cars safer, having a better pandemic plan, all sorts of things.  But that doesn't make it NOT a concern.  And a particularly terrifying one, because of the sudden and random nature of it.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It's probably not far off.  Suicides are a huge chunk.

But as I noted in a previous post, we are addressing the issue of danger to the "public at large," and that's where we face a particular danger.  There are a few types of gun deaths:

1) suicides.  These don't kill any third party.

2) murders in connection with other crime (this is the vast portion of homicides).  Avoid getting involved in the drug trade, gangs, etc., and you aren't likely to be a victim of a drug deal gone bad.

3) domestic violence murders.  This IS a real risk to many "average people."  That's why there's long been discussion and mechanisms to disarm people who are an ongoing domestic violence threat.

4) mass shootings.  This is something that you are at risk of no matter what you do.  Live your normal life, go to the store, school, whatever.....and there's just a chance that someone is going to walk in and blow you away.  That's a universal concern.  Literally every one of us is at risk of this happening.

Yes, the risks are RELATIVELY low.  We get more bang for our buck by making cars safer, having a better pandemic plan, all sorts of things.  But that doesn't make it NOT a concern.  And a particularly terrifying one, because of the sudden and random nature of it.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

0.2% in 2018. https://health.ucdavis.edu/what-you-can-do/facts.html

Suicide is the vast majority.

Shit. 

[wildcat09 29595]

The really wild thing are the percentage of suicide attempts that people survive when they use something other than a gun. It's easy for people who don't really want to grapple with it to dismiss suicide as a gun violence issue by saying shit like "oh well they'll just find another way" and waving it away, but it's not really the case. If we could magically get rid of all guns, suicides would absolutely plummet.

[Longhorn_Fan68 34106]

24 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The really wild thing are the percentage of suicide attempts that people survive when they use something other than a gun. It's easy for people who don't really want to grapple with it to dismiss suicide as a gun violence issue by saying shit like "oh well they'll just find another way" and waving it away, but it's not really the case. If we could magically get rid of all guns, suicides would absolutely plummet.

but the number of vegetables goes up. wash?

[GW Hayduke 1957]

11 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The really wild thing are the percentage of suicide attempts that people survive when they use something other than a gun. It's easy for people who don't really want to grapple with it to dismiss suicide as a gun violence issue by saying shit like "oh well they'll just find another way" and waving it away, but it's not really the case. If we could magically get rid of all guns, suicides would absolutely plummet.

And that is why IMO the goals for gun control should be to decrease the number of firearms in the population to go along with limiting the sale/possession of firearms to those that serve an actual need.

To decrease the number of firearms, we would need a buy-back program along with a registration and licensing system.  Folks can choose to sell their firearm or register it and get a licence.  If someone dies and no one in the family has the particular license to possess the class of firearms, then the firearms aren't inherited and are sold.

The registration and licencing system should be based on need.  Recreational hunting, home defense, and wildlife management are obvious needs that each require different types of firearms - different calibers, ammunition capacities, and rates of fire.  There are not a lot of needs requiring a high rate of fire and high ammo capacity.

Tack on training to go with each type of licence to address issues like proper storage, transportation, cleaning, how to not shoot yourself in the balls, how to keep siblings from shooting each other in the face, and potentially even issues like how to deal with depression when a firearm is in the house.  

[workswithseed 2204]

2 hours ago, Goredho said:

Awful what happened in Boulder, but I’m not going to lie.  Trump’s presidency and 1/6 (nevar forget) has put me squarely in the “everyone should own an assault rifle” category.

Damn, we can't even get assault rifles, unless you pay huge ass fines.

[Guest Lobo]

A lot of Trump supporters were/are very concerned about increases in suicides during the Pandemic and its myriad lockdowns/restrictions.  And understandably so, I think we all are/were.  About 60%, or nearly 25,000 gun deaths each year come via suicide.  And unlike other suicide attempts, the death rate is almost 100% with guns where with other techniques (drug overdose, CO poisoning, slitting wrists, etc.)---the rate is far, far lower.  

So if most gun deaths are via suicide, and Covid-19 restrictions are going to spike suicides...wouldn't this make a sensible time to talk about people with issues being issued firearms?  Just using MAGA logic

[Longhorn_Fan68 34106]

2 minutes ago, Lobo said:

MAGA logic

does not compute

[Anastasis 23723]

We should just make suicide illegal. 

[Guest Lobo]

While, we're at it...nevermind guns or mental health...Dr. Henry Gibson reminds us that #1 killer of Americans continues to be Death.  and we aren't talking about how "Life" is enshrined in the Constitution before the 2A was ever conceived.  

[Nivek 17415]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

We should just make suicide illegal. 

Teenage Suicide (Don't Do it) -Big Fun

[Guest Lobo]

1 minute ago, Nivek said:

Teenage Suicide (Don't Do it) -Big Fun

Whatever, Heather.

[workswithseed 2204]

10 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Teenage Suicide (Don't Do it) -Big Fun

Get rid of pills, people kill themselves from them. Firearms Only kill people, oh wait.

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/firearms/fastfact.html

Estimates of defensive gun use vary depending on the questions asked, populations studied, timeframe, and other factors related to the design of studies. The report Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violenceexternal icon indicates a range of 60,000 to 2.5 million defensive gun uses each year.

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 34106]

13 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

60,000 to 2.5 million defensive gun uses each year.

 

that "stat" right there should have been your first indication that your information is bullshit.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

22 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

that "stat" right there should have been your first indication that your information is bullshit.

I'd like to see it more in context; that report came out from the National Academy and they're mostly legit, but that is a rather large range as the sentence stated. The difference between 60,000 and 2.5 million is um, big. Unless I'm misunderstanding your intent or WWS's.

[workswithseed 2204]

24 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

that "stat" right there should have been your first indication that your information is bullshit.

Sorry that you don't trust the CDC. Got something different, or is your claim just baseless like the last one?

[hayden_horn 11402]

1 hour ago, workswithseed said:

Get rid of pills, people kill themselves from them. Firearms Only kill people, oh wait.

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/firearms/fastfact.html

Estimates of defensive gun use vary depending on the questions asked, populations studied, timeframe, and other factors related to the design of studies. The report Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violenceexternal icon indicates a range of 60,000 to 2.5 million defensive gun uses each year.

 

does the report say from what people were using guns to defend themselves?

32 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Sorry that you don't trust the CDC. Got something different, or is your claim just baseless like the last one?

cdc is your source site, but that isn't the source of the stat, which is the national academies. i'd like to read that report, but it costs $30. i'd imagine that they come to some conclusions you might not like given the description of the report, but i don't want to pay in time or money to find out. 

you know why?

because it won't matter to you. you only see what you want to see.