LIV tour discussion

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

Seems inappropriate to talk about the LiV in the US Open thread and even the PGA tour thread. Thought we could maybe talk about it in its own thread and not get off topic in the other threads. 

[Hermanator 7651]

Whatever makes golfers pissed I'm all for it. 

[ConferenceRoom 6214]

Fuck Saudi Arabia and good riddance to the players that are choosing to play on their tour. 

[Atxracer 798]

1 hour ago, ConferenceRoom said:

Fuck Saudi Arabia and good riddance to the players that are choosing to play on their tour. 

Just for the sake of discussion since I hear opposing views on this...why?  A common take that I hear, and hard to disagree with, is that this is these guys job....that they do for money.  Just like in the corporate world, if someone offers you a chance to make more than you would the rest of your life for a new job and you can work less, why wouldn't you take it?  

[Pam Cummings 9863]

46 minutes ago, Atxracer said:

Just for the sake of discussion since I hear opposing views on this...why?  A common take that I hear, and hard to disagree with, is that this is these guys job....that they do for money.  Just like in the corporate world, if someone offers you a chance to make more than you would the rest of your life for a new job and you can work less, why wouldn't you take it?  

What normal business model involves throwing billions of dollars at something with no expectation of turning a profit?

 

I hear this framed as "fair competition", no it isn't. The PGA Tour is a membership organization. The LIV is backed by government spending. I think if the US government decided to spend billions of dollars on some golf exhibitions, people would have a real problem.

 

And if all the best players go to the LIV, then what happens to the PGA? The Korn Ferry? All the developmental tours? LIV's intention is to be a much smaller field with less events. So you're going to have a lot of lower level players that suddenly find themselves with nowhere to play. You're taking away their avenue towards "making it" in professional golf.

 

It is bad for the game. Period. And unless some sort of compromise can be made the damage will be significant. But the LIV has no intention of working with PGAT. They are out to hurt them.

 

Not to mention that the format itself is just bad. 54 holes no cuts, everybody has already been paid such a huge bag that the purse is insignificant. That's not how you produce real champions. I have no respect for that. Sorry.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Pam Cummings

[Atxracer 798]

10 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

What normal business model involves throwing billions of dollars at something with no expectation of turning a profit?

Are they not expecting to turn a profit at some point?  I kinda feel they are making this investment, then they have control, then they can turn a profit.  Somewhat like a hostile takeover.  

14 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

I hear this framed as "fair competition", no it isn't.

It's not fair.  But, that's life.  Little guys get taken out by big guys all the time...and vice versa.  

But, even with that being against Saudi which I can somewhat understand, why blame the players?  Because they all should have banned together to agree to make less money in support of an organization they don't own, control, or in same cases even like?  If I were a player heading into my less competitive years and someone offers me easily more than I would make in the rest of my career and it sets my family up for generational wealth, it would be hard not to take it unless I had Tiger money.

Again, I really don't care one way or the other.  While I play golf all the time, I only watch it to take a nap.  

[Pam Cummings 9863]

8 minutes ago, Atxracer said:

Are they not expecting to turn a profit at some point?  I kinda feel they are making this investment, then they have control, then they can turn a profit.  Somewhat like a hostile takeover.  

It's not fair.  But, that's life.  Little guys get taken out by big guys all the time...and vice versa.  

But, even with that being against Saudi which I can somewhat understand, why blame the players?  Because they all should have banned together to agree to make less money in support of an organization they don't own, control, or in same cases even like?  If I were a player heading into my less competitive years and someone offers me easily more than I would make in the rest of my career and it sets my family up for generational wealth, it would be hard not to take it unless I had Tiger money.

Again, I really don't care one way or the other.  While I play golf all the time, I only watch it to take a nap.  

They know that when they take that money that it hurts the players below them in the pecking order and that it hurts the game overall. A game(and tour, mind you) that has allowed them a stage to enrich themselves and that has given them every opportunity to be on scholarship for the rest of their lives. It is something that has managed to grow and be equitable for a lot of people, and definitely can continue to do so, if the top players don't sell out.

 

I very much view it as "i got mine, screw everyone else" behavior. But, the game of golf is very fleeting, so someone who is a top player in the world right now can be insignificant in a matter of a few years. I just don't see how, outside of maybe 2-3 dudes, any of them would ever be worth investing a hundred million dollars into. But again, there is no motive to turn profit here.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Pam Cummings

[ConferenceRoom 6214]

1 hour ago, Atxracer said:

Just for the sake of discussion since I hear opposing views on this...why?  A common take that I hear, and hard to disagree with, is that this is these guys job....that they do for money.  Just like in the corporate world, if someone offers you a chance to make more than you would the rest of your life for a new job and you can work less, why wouldn't you take it?  

I should clarify my point of view is toward the specific players that have chosen to switch so far. I don't begrudge anyone for making a financial decision, although a little honesty couldn't hurt, but outside of Louis and Phil, I don't care for any of those guys and I don't care that I won't be watching them on the PGA Tour anymore. I recognize that the situation is fluid and there are likely to be more defectors after this week, but so far it's no sweat off my back. 

[Pato del Muerto 53437]

51 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

And if all the best players go to the LIV, then what happens to the PGA? The Korn Ferry? All the developmental tours? LIV's intention is to be a much smaller field with less events. So you're going to have a lot of lower level players that suddenly find themselves with nowhere to play. You're taking away their avenue towards "making it" in professional golf

Only so many can go to the LIV. That opens up that many pga tour spots for korn ferry guys, which opens up spots in korn ferry for others. 
 

maybe the purses are lowered a little, if attendance or tv money drops but I doubt it. 

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

1 hour ago, Atxracer said:

Just for the sake of discussion since I hear opposing views on this...why?  A common take that I hear, and hard to disagree with, is that this is these guys job....that they do for money.  Just like in the corporate world, if someone offers you a chance to make more than you would the rest of your life for a new job and you can work less, why wouldn't you take it?  

This is my take on the thing right now.   The talk all seems to be- fuck so and so for doing business with the Saudis. Ok, Cool, Phil said it best, the are "scary motherfuckers."  They are bad guys.  Stipulated and understood.  Lets review the tape:

W wondered around at Camp David, literally holding their hands.  Ok- that's a big evil Republican sucking up to the Kingdom b/c they are in the pocket of Big Oil. Cool.  Joe Biden is going on a state visit there in June or July.  

Ok- well- that's the government- both parties- they are a bunch of unprincipled shit heads.  Cool.   Did you know Saudi Arabia is the 2nd biggest trading partner for the United States?  Behind- I believe- only Commie, human rights violating China?  Well that sounds bad.  That's all of us with the trading.

Ok- but that's just naked commercial interests- surely this golf thing is sports and it should be more about fair play.  The Euro tour has had an official even there for years, life goes on.  The PGA tour allowed guys to go play over there with a waiver as long as they promised to play at Pebble (the opposite field event) In the next two year.  

Damn- our government, businesses, people and sports are already in bed with them.  But I'm supposed to be big mad at Figjam Mickletits b/c he took $200,000,000 from there after he's an after thought in the game of golf?  And he's uniquely evil somehow even after all the he's done for the tour?  Nah, man.  It sucks that they are shit heads.  But I'm not going to be mad at guys for taking the bag when it's what basically everyone else in every walk of life is lining up to do.  Do I wish it were different?  Yeah.  Would I do it myself?  Maybe.  If I did it would I feel super awesome about it?  Nah.  Which was the ambivalence you heard from Phil in his honest response to a reporter that he didn't suspect would come back and bite him.

 

And, it's not just about the money.  I mean, it's mostly about the money, but the thing plays out at what- 10 or 12 events a year by all indications?  So, that's a chance for them to have a better quality of life with their family, and cut down on some travel.  It's probably easier to take the wife and kids along for a summer event in London or Bangkok when you are playing once a month than to drag them from California to Texas to Florida and back again playing 3 our of every 5 weeks.  That's not insignificant.  Now, they wouldn't do that without money, obviously, but that doesn't meant that they don't care about that stuff too.  

The tour is trying to crush this and kill it in its grave, and I get that.  But, if they aren't successful in smothering it now (and I don't think we've seen anywhere near the last of the defections) then I think it's likely that they will have to live with it and deal with it.

I'm rooting for this thing to settle out with the top 50 guys in the world all on this "tour" more or less and have the thing play 8 or 10 times a year (I might be weird- but the Hero is one of my favorite events- b/c I like events where it's all top 50 world players on the leader board and it's not 7 out of 10 guys that I don't really care about), where they also play the 4 majors, and where they play 4 or 8 times a year on the tour.  That seems reasonable to me and like something that could happen.  I think, with cooperation, that this could be additive to golf and make everyone better off.  
 

If this becomes something like the Champions league, that will happen. I've yet to meet the soccer fan that's like- you know what- I love the Premier league but you know what really chaps my ass?  That fucking champions league for the best of the best that shuts down the Premier league from time to time and that I suspect guys care about maybe more than the Premier league.  Maybe that though exists and I'm not aware of it- in which case sorry for my ignorance.  But instead it's additive not subtracting.  I guess what I'd ideally like to see is that the field for the LIV is capped at 48 or something like that, the rosters are set for a year at a time, and something like 12- 20 spots rotate open depending upon play on the tour, play in the LIV, Q score of players, and whatever other metric you want to put in there.  That seems like it would be fun to me and something that I could root to see happen.  I guess I feel like I'm on an island by myself in thinking that this could be positive.   

[sidis 10011]

1 hour ago, Pam Cummings said:

What normal business model involves throwing billions of dollars at something with no expectation of turning a profit?

I hear this framed as "fair competition", no it isn't. The PGA Tour is a membership organization. The LIV is backed by government spending. I think if the US government decided to spend billions of dollars on some golf exhibitions, people would have a real problem.

you sound like you may be interested in purchasing a tailored knock off manchester city jersey.

[sidis 10011]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

If this becomes something like the Champions league, that will happen. I've yet to meet the soccer fan that's like- you know what- I love the Premier league but you know what really chaps my ass?  That fucking champions league for the best of the best that shuts down the Premier league from time to time and that I suspect guys care about maybe more than the Premier league.  Maybe that though exists and I'm not aware of it- in which case sorry for my ignorance.  But instead it's additive not subtracting.  I guess what I'd ideally like to see is that the field for the LIV is capped at 48 or something like that, the rosters are set for a year at a time, and something like 12- 20 spots rotate open depending upon play on the tour, play in the LIV, Q score of players, and whatever other metric you want to put in there.  That seems like it would be fun to me and something that I could root to see happen.  I guess I feel like I'm on an island by myself in thinking that this could be positive.   

your understanding of the relationship between champions league and the domestic leagues is not good based on this analogy.  what liv is trying to do would be more comparable (though still not quite) to what got tossed around by some of the big european clubs a few years back with the notion of forming the super league.  it died on the vine pretty quickly.  though still a poor analogy, champions league would be more comparable to ryder cup/presidents cup/olympics in that they are supplemental and not intended to compete with the domestic leagues.

this is a straight up competitive challenge to the tour.

[Pato del Muerto 53437]

How can 10 events a year and no Sunday golf, with a very limited field, be a competitor to the PGA?

and if it’s a worldwide tour (haven’t looked at schedule, basing this on some posts above) how often will the rounds be live during American afternoons when pga tour events traditionally televise?

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

7 minutes ago, sidis said:

your understanding of the relationship between champions league and the domestic leagues is not good based on this analogy.  what liv is trying to do would be more comparable (though still not quite) to what got tossed around by some of the big european clubs a few years back with the notion of forming the super league.  it died on the vine pretty quickly.  though still a poor analogy, champions league would be more comparable to ryder cup/presidents cup/olympics in that they are supplemental and not intended to compete with the domestic leagues.

this is a straight up competitive challenge to the tour.

No- I get that and understand that.  What I'm presupposing is- maybe it doesn't have to be that way.  Maybe they could settle out and work together if they found such a course of action to be in both of their self interests.  Which I think could actually happen.  We already have the WGC.  Maybe that gets expanded and beefed up and added to in the PGA Tour's response to the challenge coming down the road.  Maybe the LIV says- hey- if we cooperate, and limit ourselves to 8 events, and the tour signs off we can avoid paying out massive bonuses to get these guys to sign on and instead just offer up appearance fees for a couple that we really want and astronomical purses for the rest of those guys 8 times a year or 10 times a year and call it good.  
I'm suggesting that the best course of events could be a league that's additive and not competitive with the PGA tour for the cream of the crop around the world.  Or, maybe the tour comes out and does something to make itself better for the big names on tour and everyone wins.  

[Pato del Muerto 53437]

It might get the attention of golfers if the usga and/or r&a disqualified liv players from the opens. But why would they do that?  

[sidis 10011]

1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

How can 10 events a year and no Sunday golf, with a very limited field, be a competitor to the PGA?

and if it’s a worldwide tour (haven’t looked at schedule, basing this on some posts above) how often will the rounds be live during American afternoons when pga tour events traditionally televise?

that is their entrée en scène...not their end goal.  their next event is at the same time as the travelers.  and the following one as well.  the first one did as well.  that's a direct challenge.

 

12 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

No- I get that and understand that.  What I'm presupposing is- maybe it doesn't have to be that way.  Maybe they could settle out and work together if they found such a course of action to be in both of their self interests.  Which I think could actually happen.  We already have the WGC.  Maybe that gets expanded and beefed up and added to in the PGA Tour's response to the challenge coming down the road.  Maybe the LIV says- hey- if we cooperate, and limit ourselves to 8 events, and the tour signs off we can avoid paying out massive bonuses to get these guys to sign on and instead just offer up appearance fees for a couple that we really want and astronomical purses for the rest of those guys 8 times a year or 10 times a year and call it good.  
I'm suggesting that the best course of events could be a league that's additive and not competitive with the PGA tour for the cream of the crop around the world.  Or, maybe the tour comes out and does something to make itself better for the big names on tour and everyone wins.  

well, sure, in a coordinated and cooperative context, it could be something fun.  but that's not what we are dealing with here.  and i doubt the pga is going to be willing to sit down and cooperate as business partners with the country of saudi arabia unless they absolutely have to for survival...which is what SA is trying to do by paying guys 10X the total of a year of winning every tour event just to show up.

[Pato del Muerto 53437]

They have so much money it doesn’t matter. They are treating these pro golfers like their race horses, racing boats, or race cars.  How long will guys like Phil put up with being treated as a commodity instead of a celebrity?

[tx 3 putt 78662]

1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

They have so much money it doesn’t matter. They are treating these pro golfers like their race horses, racing boats, or race cars.  How long will guys like Phil put up with being treated as a commodity instead of a celebrity?

$300mil in the bank will probably be good enough 

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

5 minutes ago, sidis said:

that is their entrée en scène...not their end goal.  their next event is at the same time as the travelers.  and the following one as well.  the first one did as well.  that's a direct challenge.

 

well, sure, in a coordinated and cooperative context, it could be something fun.  but that's not what we are dealing with here.  and i doubt the pga is going to be willing to sit down and cooperate as business partners with the country of saudi arabia unless they absolutely have to for survival...which is what SA is trying to do by paying guys 10X the total of a year of winning every tour event just to show up.

Yeah- we are in agreement here all the way down the line here I think.

Yes in your response to Duck- this is their entry and not end goal.  I appreciate that completely. The moment this thing gets viable they play 4 days for the World golf rankings b/c that will be absolutely necessary to get guys on tour that aren't already lifetime exempted from majors.  

And yes- this isn't a coordinated and cooperative context right now.  And the PGA certainly doesn't want to cooperate and sit down as business partners right now.  And the SA guys are paying huge amounts of money to attract the biggest names b/c they want to use that as leverage to bring the PGA tour to the table, which they aren't going to do right now.  

But, Rory and Rahm and Jordan and JT (don't think Scotty is there yet) imo could totally and completely shift all of that. If, at the end of the year they look up and see that a bunch of guys that they played with, and are better than, made 9 figures and the LIV seems to be around to stay I THINK they have the power to go to the Tour and say- hey- lets figure something out here guys, none of this is good for the game.  And it won't be.  
Or- the LIV could sign Tiger.  But apparently they offered him like 800 or 900 million and he said thanks but no thanks.  But, imagine a scenario where he top 10'd at the Open in St. Andrews (I don't think he will) and they announced that he was playing out there (in a cart) on the LIV tour.  Bam, that could move the PGA tour off of center almost immediately.  

Look- I don't think it's likely that we get the positive deal I'm talking about being possible out of this.  There would be a path forward to something cool coming out of this for the average fan, but that doesn't ever seem to be the timeline we are on right now. 

Still, this is the most fascinating thing I've seen (along with NIL) in sports since the USFL got crushed.  I have no idea how it will play out. There are so many variables involved.  SA tolerance to lose money.  How many guys will jump.  Court challenges over restraint of trade I'm sure.  What caliber of players that will jump.  The tour's willingness to exist to serve the vast majority of it's membership that doesn't move the needle over the stars on the tour that are the ones that create the value.  The top guys desire or ability to coordinate.  Seriously going to be interesting to see how all that plays out. 

[sidis 10011]

13 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

They have so much money it doesn’t matter. They are treating these pro golfers like their race horses, racing boats, or race cars.  How long will guys like Phil put up with being treated as a commodity instead of a celebrity?

when you start talking about nine figure stratospheres, even the world's wealthiest people become extraordinarily flexible in terms of ethics, morals, and integrity.  everyone.  rationalized by thinking your can use that money to do good and buy off the sin while being set up with generational wealth.

to that end...i just added up the money for finishing first in every tour event this year plus winning the $15M fedex bonus for finishing first.

if you played and won every single event on the tour this year (47 events so almost every single week of the year) and won the fedex money, you would win approximately $85 million.  d.j. just got paid 2x that to fucking show up to a few really nice golf courses and play some rounds no one gives a shit about.  that's how economically irrational the actors in this transaction are...it is hard to deal with that.  especially if oil prices continue at $100 for a while.  since the notion of winning every single tournament in a year is so far fetched and absurd, a second comparison for context.  tiger woods, likely the greatest golfer of all time...in his entire career, has won approximately $121 million in prize money from playing golf.  d.j. just made 30 million more than that for just showing up.

Edited June 16, 2022 by sidis

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

5 minutes ago, sidis said:

when you start talking about nine figure stratospheres, even the world's wealthiest people become extraordinarily flexible in terms of ethics, morals, and integrity.  everyone.  rationalized by thinking your can use that money to do good and buy off the sin while being set up with generational wealth.

Yep.  Pretty sure the everyone part is correct that's why I don't fault any of the guys taking the bag.  It's just so much money to convince them to do it. And, they have to be viewing this thing in a prisoners dilemna game theory situation.  If I don't bounce and take this money someone else will, and the damage to the tour will happen, but when I move over there there won't be as big a signing bonus, so I might as well just be the first mover. 

If this thing works then the first movers will be the guys that really benefit I bet.  Because once the tour gets brought to the table (assuming this thing works- which I'm not saying it will just that if it plays out that way) there just won't be any need to pay out 8 and 9 figures to get guys to jump, b/c the work will have already been done.

Also- for people who think this is a bad investment for the Saudi's I don't know that I agree with that.  This is like a cost to acquire.  Walmart just paid 4.5 Billion for the Broncos.  They are trying to create the biggest tour in the world, out of whole cloth, for less than $2 billion.  Looked at that way the money isn't crazy they are paying but actually makes sense imo. 

[sidis 10011]

also, not to cr this shit, but on the d.j. front, i can't help but notice that there are multiple stops on the liv tour that are owned and prized by trump including doral (at least if @Bozo_Casanova attends, he can get his deconstructed doral burger).  d.j. isn't real public about it but he's a big trump guy (even spent xmas with him).  i have a feeling there's something there as well but regardless, $150M is approaching what he needs to keep paulina happy and in style for a while along with his kids (which, knowing d.j. and paulina, would probably have the intelligence of a mongoloid) never having to do anything the rest of their life but leisure.  easy decision.

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

4 minutes ago, sidis said:

also, not to cr this shit, but on the d.j. front, i can't help but notice that there are multiple stops on the liv tour that are owned and prized by trump including doral (at least if @Bozo_Casanova attends, he can get his deconstructed doral burger).  d.j. isn't real public about it but he's a big trump guy (even spent xmas with him).  i have a feeling there's something there as well but regardless, $150M is approaching what he needs to keep paulina happy and in style for a while along with his kids (which, knowing d.j. and paulina, would probably have the intelligence of a mongoloid) never having to do anything the rest of their life but leisure.  easy decision.

There is an article on DJ and his brother as a caddy that is one of the funnier things I've ever read.  For as abjectly stupid as DJ is he's a fucking mensa compared to his brother- who can't even do simple shit like add and subtract in his yardage book.  Seriously amazing article. I wish I could remember where I read it.  

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

5 minutes ago, sidis said:

also, not to cr this shit, but on the d.j. front, i can't help but notice that there are multiple stops on the liv tour that are owned and prized by trump including doral (at least if @Bozo_Casanova attends, he can get his deconstructed doral burger).  d.j. isn't real public about it but he's a big trump guy (even spent xmas with him).  i have a feeling there's something there as well but regardless, $150M is approaching what he needs to keep paulina happy and in style for a while along with his kids (which, knowing d.j. and paulina, would probably have the intelligence of a mongoloid) never having to do anything the rest of their life but leisure.  easy decision.

And thanks for not Cloaking it. This topic could go there, but if there ever was, in the history of this country, a both sides to it then that issue is both parties sucking up to SA to keep the spigot turned on whenever they get in power.  Everyone has done it on both sides of the political aisle for as long as I've been alive.  There really, I hope, isn't the need to turn this into some kind of partisan issue.  

[Da Fino 2820]

14 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

There is an article on DJ and his brother as a caddy that is one of the funnier things I've ever read.  For as abjectly stupid as DJ is he's a fucking mensa compared to his brother- who can't even do simple shit like add and subtract in his yardage book.  Seriously amazing article. I wish I could remember where I read it.  

Was it the Shipnuck article reading the green book upside down?

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

https://golf.com/news/a-relentless-rivalry-with-brother-caddie-austin-has-propelled-dj-to-the-top-of-the-game/

[Wally Fairway 5673]

The LIV guys need to perk up their marketing efforts; I'm thinking there should be a bonus to LIV tour players for winning a major, top 10 in a major and make it a tournament inside a tournament and pay out to the top performing LIV players (or to that stupid team pool thing they have going).
I mean it would generate some media attention, and money for their players
I hope the LIV leaders see this and offer me $20-$30 million to be their idea guy

[ztejas 44217]

5 hours ago, Pam Cummings said:

They know that when they take that money that it hurts the players below them in the pecking order and that it hurts the game overall.

Huh? How does it hurt the players below them? It just opens up more spots on tour and frees up purse money for tour guys. Maybe on both tours - not sure what the Euro has decided yet 

[Bozo_Casanova 26823]

That Naked Burger at Doral is fucking delicious 

['stache 22131]

On 6/16/2022 at 9:30 AM, Wulaw Horn said:

This is my take on the thing right now.   The talk all seems to be- fuck so and so for doing business with the Saudis. Ok, Cool, Phil said it best, the are "scary motherfuckers."  They are bad guys.  Stipulated and understood.  Lets review the tape:

W wondered around at Camp David, literally holding their hands.  Ok- that's a big evil Republican sucking up to the Kingdom b/c they are in the pocket of Big Oil. Cool.  Joe Biden is going on a state visit there in June or July.  

Ok- well- that's the government- both parties- they are a bunch of unprincipled shit heads.  Cool.   Did you know Saudi Arabia is the 2nd biggest trading partner for the United States?  Behind- I believe- only Commie, human rights violating China?  Well that sounds bad.  That's all of us with the trading.

Ok- but that's just naked commercial interests- surely this golf thing is sports and it should be more about fair play.  The Euro tour has had an official even there for years, life goes on.  The PGA tour allowed guys to go play over there with a waiver as long as they promised to play at Pebble (the opposite field event) In the next two year.  

Damn- our government, businesses, people and sports are already in bed with them.  But I'm supposed to be big mad at Figjam Mickletits b/c he took $200,000,000 from there after he's an after thought in the game of golf?  And he's uniquely evil somehow even after all the he's done for the tour?  Nah, man.  It sucks that they are shit heads.  But I'm not going to be mad at guys for taking the bag when it's what basically everyone else in every walk of life is lining up to do.  Do I wish it were different?  Yeah.  Would I do it myself?  Maybe.  If I did it would I feel super awesome about it?  Nah.  Which was the ambivalence you heard from Phil in his honest response to a reporter that he didn't suspect would come back and bite him.

 

And, it's not just about the money.  I mean, it's mostly about the money, but the thing plays out at what- 10 or 12 events a year by all indications?  So, that's a chance for them to have a better quality of life with their family, and cut down on some travel.  It's probably easier to take the wife and kids along for a summer event in London or Bangkok when you are playing once a month than to drag them from California to Texas to Florida and back again playing 3 our of every 5 weeks.  That's not insignificant.  Now, they wouldn't do that without money, obviously, but that doesn't meant that they don't care about that stuff too.  

The tour is trying to crush this and kill it in its grave, and I get that.  But, if they aren't successful in smothering it now (and I don't think we've seen anywhere near the last of the defections) then I think it's likely that they will have to live with it and deal with it.

I'm rooting for this thing to settle out with the top 50 guys in the world all on this "tour" more or less and have the thing play 8 or 10 times a year (I might be weird- but the Hero is one of my favorite events- b/c I like events where it's all top 50 world players on the leader board and it's not 7 out of 10 guys that I don't really care about), where they also play the 4 majors, and where they play 4 or 8 times a year on the tour.  That seems reasonable to me and like something that could happen.  I think, with cooperation, that this could be additive to golf and make everyone better off.  
 

If this becomes something like the Champions league, that will happen. I've yet to meet the soccer fan that's like- you know what- I love the Premier league but you know what really chaps my ass?  That fucking champions league for the best of the best that shuts down the Premier league from time to time and that I suspect guys care about maybe more than the Premier league.  Maybe that though exists and I'm not aware of it- in which case sorry for my ignorance.  But instead it's additive not subtracting.  I guess what I'd ideally like to see is that the field for the LIV is capped at 48 or something like that, the rosters are set for a year at a time, and something like 12- 20 spots rotate open depending upon play on the tour, play in the LIV, Q score of players, and whatever other metric you want to put in there.  That seems like it would be fun to me and something that I could root to see happen.  I guess I feel like I'm on an island by myself in thinking that this could be positive.   

I care almost nothing about golf but this is on NPR and mainstream news so I'm sort of interested in the dynamics. The first part of your post is my initial inclination. Yeah, they're bad dudes, but our politicians (both sides) never seem to care. We've been buying their oil for generations without commentary. The majority of the 9/11 attackers were Saudis but we went to war with another country altogether, because reasons (no cr there was bipartisan support for it at the time).  When they murdered Jamal Khashoggi we did literally nothing about it. The trope I keep seeing is that these golfers are taking "blood money." Welcome to the US economy, dipshits (include China and Russia to the list).

The uproar from the PGA, it seems to me, is about direct competition and a direct threat to its revenue streams, from a competitor with unlimited resources. That is all it is, nothing more, nothing less. They just get to use the "blood money" argument to try and bolster their tactics to avoid direct competition. This whole ordeal just makes me hate professional golf altogether, the PGA seems like it sucks for misrepresenting their motives, and LIV seems like it sucks because evil and whatnot. Fuck em both.

Edited June 17, 2022 by 'stache

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

I care almost nothing about golf but this is on NPR and mainstream news so I'm sort of interested in the dynamics. The first part of your post is my initial inclination. Yeah, they're bad dudes, but our politicians (both sides) never seem to care. We've been buying their oil for generations without commentary. The majority of the 9/11 attackers were Saudis but we went to war with another country altogether, because reasons (no cr there was bipartisan support for it at the time).  When they murdered Jamal Khashoggi we did literally nothing about it. The trope I keep seeing is that these golfers are taking "blood money." Welcome to the US economy, dipshits (include China and Russia to the list).

The uproar from the PGA, it seems to me, is about direct competition and a direct threat to its revenue streams, from a competitor with unlimited resources. That is all it is, nothing more, nothing less. They just get to use the "blood money" argument to try and bolster their tactics to avoid direct competition. This whole ordeal just makes me hate professional golf altogether, the PGA seems like it sucks for misrepresenting their motives, and LIV seems like it sucks because evil and whatnot. Fuck em both.

Yep- pretty spot on.  We are in total agreement on the first paragraph and that's sort of my point in starting this thread- to push back against the idea that these golfers are doing something really bad in getting in bed with SA when pretty much everyone is in bed with them.

The second paragraph also spot on. The PGA tour is cynically using the SA are bad guys as a cudgel when they have shown no problem with being in bed with them (or China) when it suits their needs.  It's nonsense and disingenuous from the tour and I'm personally not a fan of people pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining.  This is all about protecting their turn (I've got no problem with that- everyone does it) and not at all about morality or SA or anything else coming out of their mouths. I find it offensive when someone insults my intelligence with an argument that is completely at odds with the facts on the ground- which is what the Tour is doing here so I'm calling them out for obfuscating, not for trying to protect their fiefdom.  That's human nature and I'm good with it.  Just like it's human nature for every worker to try to find the biggest bag which is what the golfers going over there are doing. 

[grazinhorn 472]

For what it's worth, I think the "Saudi money BAD" argument is stupid and a distraction.  It's one of those ideas that just turns the whole discussion sideways.  There are plenty of interesting elements in play without invoking the Saudi role.

Good discussion.

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/rumours-ramp-up-over-next-liv-golf-signings
 

this would send shockwaves:

Koepka (we’ve already kicked that one around)

Hovland

Morikowa

Xander. 

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

That would give the LIV something like 25 players out of 48 that people have heard of/might care a little bit about. 
 

Figjam (I know he’s irrelevant as a player, but he’s important in the gold psyche for lots of people)

Reed, Morikowa, Xander, Koepka, BDC, DJ, Ricky, plus a bunch of internationals. 
thats close to half your Ryder cup team for the US. 

if that happens on Monday the tour needs to be at the table immediately with the LIV and they need to work it out- because if it gets there it’s only a matter of time before there are more big stars playing on the LIV than on the PGA tour (not overall quality of golf- just talking stars) and there is no way it’s good for the game for the tour to ban all those guys while they are fighting a clearly losing effort. 
 

I don’t think any of the guys (absent maybe Phol) want to harm/punish the tour. I would think that’s reasonable compromise could be- hey- cap the LIV at 10 events (they should be ok- scarcity helps them) you guys over there have to play 10 events on tour (majors count) and let’s keep some  events sacred on tour where the LIV doesn’t counter program (I’m thinking Torrey/Pebble/TPC/Phoenix/Memorial while Jack is alive/Nelson- I’d be open to hearing about anything I might have missed), and while also getting a promise for those guys to try to play at least one tournament in ever region every other year (so 1 on west coast swing, 1 in Florida- 1 in Texas and 1 in Midwest) so the fans regionally can go see them if that’s a priority. 
 

the tour doesn’t love that, obviously, but it’s not woefully diminished. Also- those guys play Ryder cup. Unless you just want a Ryder cup full of second stringers all the way around. 
 

I guess the other alternative is to just go ahead and make Rory, Jordan and JT’s life miserable by trying to hold it all together by themselves as they see more and more of their friends jump ship for huge money while they are left to hold it together. 
 

[dcar00 14931]

On 6/16/2022 at 10:24 AM, sidis said:

 

if you played and won every single event on the tour this year (47 events so almost every single week of the year) and won the fedex money, you would win approximately $85 million.  d.j. just got paid 2x that to fucking show up to a few really nice golf courses and play some rounds no one gives a shit about.  that's how economically irrational the actors in this transaction are...it is hard to deal with that.  especially if oil prices continue at $100 for a while.  since the notion of winning every single tournament in a year is so far fetched and absurd, a second comparison for context.  tiger woods, likely the greatest golfer of all time...in his entire career, has won approximately $121 million in prize money from playing golf.  d.j. just made 30 million more than that for just showing up.

and herein lies Phil's point.

Edited June 18, 2022 by dcar00

[4th&Five 41969]

 

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

Just coming to post this. This is huge for the LIV tour, obviously, as if they can’t get sanctioned for OWGR points their players will still have an opportunity to earn world ranking points to play in the majors if that’s their desire. Tons of international guys already used to playing over there, but also a guy like Patrick Reed or Bubba Watson who are permanently qualified for some majors but not for others. DJ too. 

[Revolution512 1515]

The PGA Tour is in a bit of a jam. As far as dirty money goes, we’d all have to eliminate a lot of things in our daily lives if we pull at that thread.

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

1 minute ago, Revolution512 said:

The PGA Tour is in a bit of a jam. As far as dirty money goes, we’d all have to eliminate a lot of things in our daily lives if we pull at that thread.

Yeah. I think you are already starting to see some push back to that. If the LIV wants to go down that road they can certainly turn different sponsors on the tour into a shit show and get spox/PR guys on it. 

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

The DP tour has a major influence in Ryder Cup on that side of the pond (PGA as in teaching pros- not the tour) runs the American side. The DP might be protecting that golden goose for them with this decision. It’s a crazy high part of what allows them to remain running and solvent. 
Also, as mentioned above, it’s clearly possible that their fields get better if LIV guys go there chasing points and because they can’t play on the US tour. 

[ztejas 44217]

Yeah. PGA isn't going to be able to suspend these guys any (or much - at least) longer. That tactic lasted... 3 weeks? 

Agree with @Wulaw Horn (and a lot of good thoughts in here - appreciate it)  they will just have to lax a bit on requirements to maintain a tour card and maybe move some of the purse money around a bit.

This will wind up being good for golf and I'd imagine the LIV winds up being watchable at some point. As much as all of the holier-than-thou pearl-clutchers don't want to admit it. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by ztejas

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

2 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Yeah. PGA isn't going to be able to suspend these guys any longer. That tactic lasted... 3 weeks? 

Agree with @Wulaw Horn (and a lot of good thoughts in here - appreciate it)  they will just have to lax a bit on requirements to maintain a tour card and maybe move some of the purse money around a bit.

This will wind up being good for golf and I'd imagine the LIV winds up being watchable at some point. As much as all of the holier-than-thou pearl-clutchers don't want to admit it. 

That’s what I’m focused on where it ends up and if there’s a way that it makes everything better for me as a guy who loves golf, but with family and other obligations probably only watches the majors or if I see Jordan or Scotty in the mix to win. Ryder cup. Presidents Cup. 

I think if you put nothing but guys I know, on TV, with no journeymen, on different courses around the world, with decent production value, with all the names on the course at the same time (shotgun start is smart for that I think/ but I could end up hating it) that would be something I watched and was interested in, but maybe not. 

[ztejas 44217]

4 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That’s what I’m focused on where it ends up and if there’s a way that it makes everything better for me as a guy who loves golf, but with family and other obligations probably only watches the majors or if I see Jordan or Scotty in the mix to win. Ryder cup. Presidents Cup. 

I think if you put nothing but guys I know, on TV, with no journeymen, on different courses around the world, with decent production value, with all the names on the course at the same time (shotgun start is smart for that I think/ but I could end up hating it) that would be something I watched and was interested in, but maybe not. 

Whether the LIV gets there or not isn't that important to me. What's important is maintaining the field strength at the better PGA stops. Watching Rory and JT (and the other holdouts - whoever it might be) battle Johnny Q school at the Memorial isn't good for viewers.

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

3 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Whether the LIV gets there or not isn't that important to me. What's important is maintaining the field strength at the better PGA stops. Watching Rory and JT (and the other holdouts - whoever it might be) battle Johnny Q school at the Memorial isn't good for viewers.

True. That’s why I hope the LiV comes to an agreement with the PGA- that there aren’t a ton of events, and that they keep some of the special events special. If that happens you might see some of those tournaments even gain in stature. I don’t need 47 weeks on the PGA tour. It’s too much. I’d ideally like to see 18-20 weeks, not during football season, of the best players in the world teeing it up against each other. I don’t think I watch anything other than the Ryder Cup during  football season. 

[Mileslong 4801]

Yeah. PGA isn't going to be able to suspend these guys any (or much - at least) longer. That tactic lasted... 3 weeks? 
Agree with [mention=5267]Wulaw Horn[/mention] (and a lot of good thoughts in here - appreciate it)  they will just have to lax a bit on requirements to maintain a tour card and maybe move some of the purse money around a bit.
This will wind up being good for golf and I'd imagine the LIV winds up being watchable at some point. As much as all of the holier-than-thou pearl-clutchers don't want to admit it. 

What’s worse than the holier than though people are the people who pretend they like golf and are defending the saudis, not thinking the LIV players aren’t greedy, think they PGA is boring and stale etc etc etc.

When the only fucking thing that really matters to them is that the PGA snubbed Trump for his role in the insurrection. He has now jumped on the SGL bandwagon ONLY because they snubbed him. Now all his cult members are suddenly golf fans and think this is all the PGA’s fault.

Just admit it, you voted for trump. It saves us all from the justifying BS

[ztejas 44217]

4 minutes ago, Mileslong said:

What’s worse than the holier than though people are the people who pretend they like golf and are defending the saudis, not thinking the LIV players aren’t greedy, think they PGA is boring and stale etc etc etc.

When the only fucking thing that really matters to them is that the PGA snubbed Trump for his role in the insurrection. He has now jumped on the SGL bandwagon ONLY because they snubbed him. Now all his cult members are suddenly golf fans and think this is all the PGA’s fault.

Just admit it, you voted for trump. It saves us all from the justifying BS

Yeah you're right. I'm just pretending to like golf so I can advance a pro-Trump narrative on Surly. Classic ztejas CRing golf threads.

Or wait - maybe you're a fucking moron. Aren't you an LSU fan? That would explain a lot. 

[Wulaw Horn 19579]

1 hour ago, Mileslong said:

What’s worse than the holier than though people are the people who pretend they like golf and are defending the saudis, not thinking the LIV players aren’t greedy, think they PGA is boring and stale etc etc etc.

When the only fucking thing that really matters to them is that the PGA snubbed Trump for his role in the insurrection. He has now jumped on the SGL bandwagon ONLY because they snubbed him. Now all his cult members are suddenly golf fans and think this is all the PGA’s fault.

Just admit it, you voted for trump. It saves us all from the justifying BS

I hate it when I can’t tell if a post is based upon alcohol, being sarcastic in a joking way, or just plain dumb. 
I’m unaware of @ztejas being a Trumpster- he doesn’t strike me that way. I’ve only been a tie trump on this board and the last one since the day he declared personally, and maintain that to this day. 
I don’t think anyone thinks this isn’t a cash grab by all the golfers playing there. That’s sort of the entire point of this discussion- workers like large pay and easy working conditions- the LiV is offering both, it will be interesting to see if that’s enough to cause a disruption in the golf ecosystem. 

[Revolution512 1515]

2 hours ago, Mileslong said:

What’s worse than the holier than though people are the people who pretend they like golf and are defending the saudis, not thinking the LIV players aren’t greedy, think they PGA is boring and stale etc etc etc.

When the only fucking thing that really matters to them is that the PGA snubbed Trump for his role in the insurrection. He has now jumped on the SGL bandwagon ONLY because they snubbed him. Now all his cult members are suddenly golf fans and think this is all the PGA’s fault.

Just admit it, you voted for trump. It saves us all from the justifying BS

Hi, you’re a fucking idiot. Is it exhausting being this dumb?

[Mileslong 4801]

Hi, you’re a fucking idiot. Is it exhausting being this dumb?

512 must be your IQ. Your post looks like it was penned by a teenager…

[ztejas 44217]

I'm just going to neg you and report you for CR in non CR. Because that seems like an easier solution than sitting here trying to figure out how to respond to your dumbassery.