LIV tour discussion

[Blotto 23579]

18 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

betting on the young players only works if those young players are able to get in the majors and win some.  otherwise nobody will ever know if they're actually good or not.

NLU said on the podcast today that MBS and Trump are rumored to be in Portland for the event this week. 

Trump in portland? lulz, please let that be true. 

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

18 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

betting on the young players only works if those young players are able to get in the majors and win some.  otherwise nobody will ever know if they're actually good or not.

NLU said on the podcast today that MBS and Trump are rumored to be in Portland for the event this week. 

Yep. People have posited often that the LIV getting am's will help them and hurt the tour but I couldn't disagree more. The PGA tour, as currently constituted, is a star making device for young players. The LIV just doesn't have enough attention to do that, and the last thing in the world they want is guys nobody has ever heard of winning their events.  They want BDC, DJ, Reed, B. Koepka, Sergio, FIGJAM Mickletits to win those events so that people will pay attention and it will give it an air of legitimacy.  Maybe, once they have something like 30 or 35 solidly recognizable names it will be good for a 23 year old straight from University to win out there, if the big boys are on the leaderboad, but until that happens, yeah, the young players aren't helpful.  Unless its a young guy like Morikowa who has already made his bones.

[Hate 20146]

The only way I’ll see any of the LIV guys is during the majors. I have no interest in watching any of the LIV events. I would imagine I am not in the minority.

[Wally Fairway 5587]

3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Yep. People have posited often that the LIV getting am's will help them and hurt the tour but I couldn't disagree more. The PGA tour, as currently constituted, is a star making device for young players. The LIV just doesn't have enough attention to do that, and the last thing in the world they want is guys nobody has ever heard of winning their events.  They want BDC, DJ, Reed, B. Koepka, Sergio, FIGJAM Mickletits to win those events so that people will pay attention and it will give it an air of legitimacy.  Maybe, once they have something like 30 or 35 solidly recognizable names it will be good for a 23 year old straight from University to win out there, if the big boys are on the leaderboad, but until that happens, yeah, the young players aren't helpful.  Unless its a young guy like Morikowa who has already made his bones.

I agree - I follow James Piot, who just graduated from MSU as the reigning US Am champion. I get that his choice was to hope to get a few sponsors exemptions, and parlay that into Korn Ferry status; he knew he had a spot in the Detroit event. But there are no money guarantees, so he took the signing bonus (no idea how much) and is playing the LIV events for guaranteed money. 
While I get the choice, nobody dreams of winning the 54 hole Schmuckoo Open, it is the path of least resistance to $$$$. 
It will be interesting to see what (if any) path there is back the PGA tour when some of these players want to return to a chance to win something more than cash.

[tx 3 putt 77442]

pga finding all kind of money, lot increased purses. even the korn ferry guys are benefitting

sniping the korn ferry guys is how the LIV cuts into the pga  

[Mileslong 4728]

Ancer and Wolfe say they look forward to see other countries and cultures when they play venues overseas. BDC can’t say that, instead he puts it this way. saying “I would like to showcase my skill set around the world for people to see”

What a douchebag, Jesus

Here’s more:

“Golf is a force for good,” DeChambeau said. “As time goes on, hopefully people will see the good they’re (the Saudis) doing. And what they’re trying to accomplish, rather than looking back at the bad that’s happened before.”

I guess by “before” he means last week

[Hate 20146]

This LIV thing is made for BDC, Koepka, Reed, and Johnson.  I'm glad I'll only have to see them 4 times a year for the next few years until their major exemptions run out...except for DJ and Reed.  We'll have to see those assholes for the rest of our lives every April.  I hope none of these LIV guys ever win another major so they can just drift away.  I also hope the Ryder Cup ignores them. 

[4th&Five 41590]

 

[Wally Fairway 5587]

I have some new team names to suggest for the LIV team thing, does anyone have email for MBS - I'm sure he will send me a few million for this upgrade in branding

a) Team Foot Wedge - Patrick Reed
b) Team IDGAF - DJ
c) Team Sloth Pace - Na
d) Team Peacock - IJP
e) Team FIWWG - Lefty
f) Team Brooksie - DeChambeau
g) Team BDC sucks - Brooks
h)  Team So Much Promise when I was young - Sergio
i) Team Our names won't fit on leaderboards - Chantananuwat, Kaewkanjana, Buranatanyarat, Khongwatmai 
j) Team Rod Tidwell - All of them
k) Team No Cut - Wolffe
l) Team Geriatric - Westy/GMac

[Zeus 6128]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKR0akSA5aY

 

Ian Poulter's 2nd shot on hole 4, miracle shot, may have killed a man by bouncing off his head and onto the green...

[4th&Five 41590]

 

[ztejas 43538]

Sports Center is showing LIV shit... 

In case anyone was wondering. 

And I don't blame them. I'm sort of more interested in the LIV leaderboard this week than the shitty John Deere field. 

[Wally Fairway 5587]

8 hours ago, ztejas said:

Sports Center is showing LIV shit... 

In case anyone was wondering. 

And I don't blame them. I'm sort of more interested in the LIV leaderboard this week than the shitty John Deere field. 

Here let me help you out (I looked to see how Piot did - +1, T21) with the top 10 (actually 13 with ties) after round 1

2 DJ, 3 Pat Perez, T3 Grace & Brooks, T9 Oosty & Kaymer - the rest are guys I've never heard of
The other PGA Rod Tidwells - T14 (even) Wolff, Reed, BDC, +1 Ancer, Koepka jr, Charl, +3 Phil, IJP, Serge, +4 Westy, +7 GMac
the leader is -5, last place is +10 - no cut and everyone gets a juicebox/paycheck
Team standings {insert Harrison Ford "who gives a shit" gif}

[4th&Five 41590]

 

[4th&Five 41590]

 

[freyguy 4295]

these golfers are such bitch babies.  They sound just like middle school girls.

[dcar00 14374]

9 minutes ago, freyguy said:

these golfers are such bitch babies.  They sound just like middle school girls.

I'll be impressed if Big Bad Billy gives any money he wins from the new top 50 no cut tournaments that just showed up because a bunch of guys went to LIV.  

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

11 hours ago, dcar00 said:

I'll be impressed if Big Bad Billy gives any money he wins from the new top 50 no cut tournaments that just showed up because a bunch of guys went to LIV.  

Yeah- for all the shit Rory and other guys talk they are getting (even) richer because of this thing happening while also getting to look like “the good guys”. 
I’m starting to switch back to thinking this LIV thing won’t get where they want it to be. They need to pull another half dozen names after the open. 

[dcar00 14374]

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Yeah- for all the shit Rory and other guys talk they are getting (even) richer because of this thing happening while also getting to look like “the good guys”. 
I’m starting to switch back to thinking this LIV thing won’t get where they want it to be. They need to pull another half dozen names after the open. 

I've never thought the LIV would survive(my guess is it goes for 3 or 4 years).  It is USFL with more money.  I'm not rooting for or against it.  I don't really care either way.  I'm good with the market dictating what happens. The 54 holes is dumb. I'm not sure what to think about the shotgun start but I haven't watched an event other than a few minutes on youtube.  The NASCAR scoreboard might catch on.

It is funny seeing all these PGA guys trying to  claim the high ground though. Horschel bitching about LIV guys claiming they want to advance golf and it is good for golf being hypocrites is top notch moral high ground though.  Like Horschel(or Justin Thomas for that matter) hasn't ever spewed marketing BS pablum before.  give me a break.

[Wally Fairway 5587]

41 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

I've never thought the LIV would survive(my guess is it goes for 3 or 4 years).  It is USFL with more money.  I'm not rooting for or against it.  I don't really care either way.  I'm good with the market dictating what happens. The 54 holes is dumb. I'm not sure what to think about the shotgun start but I haven't watched an event other than a few minutes on youtube.  The NASCAR scoreboard might catch on.

It is funny seeing all these PGA guys trying to  claim the high ground though. Horschel bitching about LIV guys claiming they want to advance golf and it is good for golf being hypocrites is top notch moral high ground though.  Like Horschel(or Justin Thomas for that matter) hasn't ever spewed marketing BS pablum before.  give me a break.

I didn't really care about the shotgun start either, until I heard an announcer talking about how it would be hard for fans to follow the leaders if one of them was finishing on the 4th hole and the other on 17. And if you had several guys in the mix it gets tougher for people on the course; TV coverages should be able to handle it, but we will have to wait and see how that goes. 
Also, say the 16th hole is a reachable par 5 with an eagle opportunity and that is one guys finishing hole and someone else is on a long par 4; I know they all play the same course but scramble isn't how we are used to following the leaders and the challenges they face.

I've reached a point where I check in on Sunday to see how won, about the same time I get online to see how the PGA tour final round is progressing.

[dcar00 14374]

3 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

I didn't really care about the shotgun start either, until I heard an announcer talking about how it would be hard for fans to follow the leaders if one of them was finishing on the 4th hole and the other on 17. And if you had several guys in the mix it gets tougher for people on the course; TV coverages should be able to handle it, but we will have to wait and see how that goes. 
Also, say the 16th hole is a reachable par 5 with an eagle opportunity and that is one guys finishing hole and someone else is on a long par 4; I know they all play the same course but scramble isn't how we are used to following the leaders and the challenges they face.

I've reached a point where I check in on Sunday to see how won, about the same time I get online to see how the PGA tour final round is progressing.

I agree the shotgun start is certainly problematic for fans at the course.  yeah your example for players finishing is certainly on point.  

Do they think it is more exciting that in that situation the player not knowing what he might need to do creates more drama?  IMO, I think it creates less drama but can't be sure.

with 50 players do you have 3 on each hole for shotgun?  I have no idea because I haven't looked into it

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

I think the best argument for the shotgun is 2 fold:

1) You get all the players playing the course at the same time, so it's not like one side of the draw or the other has a big advantage with course conditions which happens very frequently

2) Guys don't have to be on the range hitting balls at 6:00 am.  I think it's got to be valuable to the players to tee off at noon local time (or 11:00) instead of that early late thing- which I'm sure they hate.

As a viewer I'm not sure if it would be easy to process whose on the course where and where the scoring opportunities are.  When you are watching the Masters, for example, you learn to say- hey- he's got a 1 shot lead but he's probably 1 down b/c he's on 16 and the other guy is in the middle of the fairway on 13 and they have 2 birdie holes, so... even with a course in the Opens or PGA you figure out where the scoring opportunities are by the 2nd or 3rd day.  It would be weird for people to be separated from that down the stretch.  Maybe the shotgun for day 1 and 2 and then traditional tee times for the final day.  

Like yall- I'm not watching any of this- so I don't know.  I'm watching what it looks like as they try to put together a league to challenge tour hegemony b/c that's interesting stuff. 

[dcar00 14374]

4 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I think the best argument for the shotgun is 2 fold:

1) You get all the players playing the course at the same time, so it's not like one side of the draw or the other has a big advantage with course conditions which happens very frequently

2) Guys don't have to be on the range hitting balls at 6:00 am.  I think it's got to be valuable to the players to tee off at noon local time (or 11:00) instead of that early late thing- which I'm sure they hate.

As a viewer I'm not sure if it would be easy to process whose on the course where and where the scoring opportunities are.  When you are watching the Masters, for example, you learn to say- hey- he's got a 1 shot lead but he's probably 1 down b/c he's on 16 and the other guy is in the middle of the fairway on 13 and they have 2 birdie holes, so... even with a course in the Opens or PGA you figure out where the scoring opportunities are by the 2nd or 3rd day.  It would be weird for people to be separated from that down the stretch.  Maybe the shotgun for day 1 and 2 and then traditional tee times for the final day.  

Like yall- I'm not watching any of this- so I don't know.  I'm watching what it looks like as they try to put together a league to challenge tour hegemony b/c that's interesting stuff. 

good points on the weather conditions and the early tee times.  I'm sure they especially hate it when they are really out of it on Sunday.  they can't get out early but on LIV they are being paid well to stick around and only have to play 54 holes anyway.

IMO, this all comes down to things like the majors, ryder cup, hall of fame type stuff.  LIV golf is a better deal for the players....for now.  LIke I said, it probably dies in 4 years but maybe it makes the PGA even better long run.  got to be a boon for BDC, he can go do long drive contests all the time now.

If the PGA, "Pete Roses" all these guys after it likely fails, it will be interesting...

[Revolution512 1495]

Well the private jet for players and caddies seems…….fun

[WBT 20670]

Why are y'all saying it won't survive?  It's not meant to make money.  The Saudi, Qatari, and UAE owned European football teams have been burning money for decades now.

[Blotto 23579]

22 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I think the best argument for the shotgun is 2 fold:

1) You get all the players playing the course at the same time, so it's not like one side of the draw or the other has a big advantage with course conditions which happens very frequently

2) Guys don't have to be on the range hitting balls at 6:00 am.  I think it's got to be valuable to the players to tee off at noon local time (or 11:00) instead of that early late thing- which I'm sure they hate.

As a viewer I'm not sure if it would be easy to process whose on the course where and where the scoring opportunities are.  When you are watching the Masters, for example, you learn to say- hey- he's got a 1 shot lead but he's probably 1 down b/c he's on 16 and the other guy is in the middle of the fairway on 13 and they have 2 birdie holes, so... even with a course in the Opens or PGA you figure out where the scoring opportunities are by the 2nd or 3rd day.  It would be weird for people to be separated from that down the stretch.  Maybe the shotgun for day 1 and 2 and then traditional tee times for the final day.  

Like yall- I'm not watching any of this- so I don't know.  I'm watching what it looks like as they try to put together a league to challenge tour hegemony b/c that's interesting stuff. 

I haven't watched any final day action, so I'm unclear on how the pairings are handled. Do they at least group the players in the lead in the same pairings, so they are playing the same holes and able to see the good/bad play and react accordingly, or are the players just scattered around the course as randomly as on the first day? 

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

7 minutes ago, Blotto said:

I haven't watched any final day action, so I'm unclear on how the pairings are handled. Do they at least group the players in the lead in the same pairings, so they are playing the same holes and able to see the good/bad play and react accordingly, or are the players just scattered around the course as randomly as on the first day? 

No idea. You’d have to think they are paired by score but who the hell knows. 

[TonyTexas 10530]

Pretty good indication that the majors aren’t going to make it easy on the LIV defectors 

 

[MonkeyDoughnut 10357]

PGA factions still giving LIV a lot of press and free rent for something they don't consider a threat.

[Zeus 6128]

Biden headed to Saudi Arabia to beg for some more oil production. 

PGA tour under investigation by the DOJ announced.

Pretty funny

[dcar00 14374]

 

5 hours ago, Zeus said:

Biden headed to Saudi Arabia to beg for some more oil production. 

PGA tour under investigation by the DOJ announced.

Pretty funny

all predictable.  

everyone screaming about LIV ruining golf are like aggy and Neb re: LHN.

[4th&Five 41590]

 

[GhostOfTomJoad 9352]

Tiger's answer seems very crafted, as if he had some input from the PGA, R&A, ANGC, etc. There's no more powerful backdrop than St Andrew's on the eve of the 150th Open to speculate that LIV players may not be eligible for future major championships.

[dcar00 14374]

It's 50 players who are mostly over the hill or average tour golfers who never got to the next level on tour.  yes there are some young guys who took the money. who cares?  

The PGA already showed their cards. "oh, shit, well look at that here's some money I didn't know we had" and the only leverage they have are the majors and ryder cup. 

The PGA tour should just ignore it.  Oh, and let me guess, Tiger has never gone to someone else for a better deal. hypocrite.

[4th&Five 41590]

The money “they didn’t know they had” isn’t actually there yet. Those tournaments aren’t sold. The rest is TV money that was already set to increase. 
 

Tiger turned down a billion dollars from LIV so if he wants to lecture those guys I have no problem. Same with Jordan, JT an Rory. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by 4th&Five

[closetohumping 17474]

So Tiger, Spieth, Collin, Rory,etc all are hard no's. 

[4th&Five 41590]

And Rahm

[dcar00 14374]

2 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

The money “they didn’t know they had” isn’t actually there yet. Those tournaments aren’t sold. The rest is TV money that was already set to increase. 
 

Tiger turned down a billion dollars from LIV so if he wants to lecture those guys I have no problem. Same with Jordan, JT an Rory. 

Tiger doesn't give a fuck he already made his money and he is basically only going to play majors and a couple of tournaments a year.  Why would he play LIV and risk any possibility of playing in majors?

Jordan, JT and Rory are all chasing majors in their prime.  I would expect them to say no.  BDC and DJ don't really give a fuck, IMO.  BDC was only trying to prove to people you don't have to do everything the traditional way(and he did that), which in a way is probably why he jumped.

This all crashes and burns in 4 years or so anyway but the pontificating from on high is pretty ridiculous.

[TonyTexas 10530]

On 7/6/2022 at 12:35 PM, Wulaw Horn said:

I think the best argument for the shotgun is 2 fold:

1) You get all the players playing the course at the same time, so it's not like one side of the draw or the other has a big advantage with course conditions which happens very frequently

2) Guys don't have to be on the range hitting balls at 6:00 am.  I think it's got to be valuable to the players to tee off at noon local time (or 11:00) instead of that early late thing- which I'm sure they hate. . 

 

Shotgun starts are pretty much limited to 20 groups. A group on each hole with 2 on the par 5s. At most PGA tournaments, with 3 players per group, you’d need two different starts, at least on Thursday and Friday. So luck of the draw would still apply  And you’d actually have more players warming up early as 60 players would tee off at 8am

[tx 3 putt 77442]

7 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

 

 

meh, why stay at a company at a company that's under paying you when other companies want to buy your experience and knowledge. i see it all the time with o/g companies 

On 7/9/2022 at 8:16 AM, MonkeyDoughnut said:

PGA factions still giving LIV a lot of press and free rent for something they don't consider a threat.

 

pga and their players would be better served to just stop talking about. 

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

21 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

 

Shotgun starts are pretty much limited to 20 groups. A group on each hole with 2 on the par 5s. At most PGA tournaments, with 3 players per group, you’d need two different starts, at least on Thursday and Friday. So luck of the draw would still apply  And you’d actually have more players warming up early as 60 players would tee off at 8am

Yeah- it has to be with a limited field like the LIV has. Tour wouldn't work.  That's actually 22 groups most courses with 1 on every hole and 2 on the par 5's.  So, that's 66 players on the course at a time.  I wonder what would happen if you had 2 groups on every hole in a shotgun start (with 1 on the par 3's).  Could you get through in 5 hours?  That seems to be the pace of play out there nowadays on tour. 

[tx 3 putt 77442]

pga should be shotgun start thursday and fridays. weekend tee times need to move up an hour or two 

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

Just now, tx 3 putt said:

pga should be shotgun start thursday and fridays. weekend tee times need to move up an hour or two 

That's what we are talking about- I don't think they can be shotgun starts on Thursday or Friday- too many guys on the course.  They could do it over the weekend after the cut. I think I would actually like that but I'm not positive.  

[tx 3 putt 77442]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That's what we are talking about- I don't think they can be shotgun starts on Thursday or Friday- too many guys on the course.  They could do it over the weekend after the cut. I think I would actually like that but I'm not positive.  

 

goto threesomes on thursday and fridays

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

1 minute ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

goto threesomes on thursday and fridays

Even with that, and two groups on every hole, you can only have 6x18 for 108 players on the course.  They usually go with 144 or 156 I think. 

[TonyTexas 10530]

7 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Even with that, and two groups on every hole, you can only have 6x18 for 108 players on the course.  They usually go with 144 or 156 I think. 

108 players on the course simultaneously would mean 6+ hour rounds. What player would be happy with that?  And every course would need one of these

 

[dcar00 14374]

24 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Yeah- it has to be with a limited field like the LIV has. Tour wouldn't work.  That's actually 22 groups most courses with 1 on every hole and 2 on the par 5's.  So, that's 66 players on the course at a time.  I wonder what would happen if you had 2 groups on every hole in a shotgun start (with 1 on the par 3's).  Could you get through in 5 hours?  That seems to be the pace of play out there nowadays on tour. 

the shotgun start might be cool at the Dell Match play at least for the pod rounds

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

2 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

the shotgun start might be cool at the Dell Match play at least for the pod rounds

Absolutely.  And I wouldn't mind seeing it experimented with on weekends after the cut at shitty tournaments.  You could get it in and out in 5 hours probably with everyone playing at the same time.  Might be fun. Might suck.  I would like to see more experimentation with things which is something cool coming out of the LIV I think.  

[dcar00 14374]

Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

Absolutely.  And I wouldn't mind seeing it experimented with on weekends after the cut at shitty tournaments.  You could get it in and out in 5 hours probably with everyone playing at the same time.  Might be fun. Might suck.  I would like to see more experimentation with things which is something cool coming out of the LIV I think.  

I think for match play and limited filed events it might be cool.

for weekends the TV guys aren't going to want to do that.  no one cares about anyone below the top 20 or so guys after the cut.  CBS can run a 4 hour slot and show the back and forth for the top 5-10 twosomes, have certain guys calling the action on the back nine holes and faldo/nance calling the 18th.  they don't want to mess with that and I can't say I blame them.

[Wulaw Horn 19152]

3 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

I think for match play and limited filed events it might be cool.

for weekends the TV guys aren't going to want to do that.  no one cares about anyone below the top 20 or so guys after the cut.  CBS can run a 4 hour slot and show the back and forth for the top 5-10 twosomes, have certain guys calling the action on the back nine holes and faldo/nance calling the 18th.  they don't want to mess with that and I can't say I blame them.

That's why I said shitty tournaments.  Think fall finish type stuff that is on the golf channel. It might be more fun for the fans on the course and the viewers. It's not like if the mickey mouse open tries something and people don't love it that would be the end of the world.  

But yeah- limited field events and match play seem pretty cool.  Really the point is that it would be awesome (maybe) to post up on the couch and be able to see every shot of every player in 5 hours on Sunday at a major, while currently it takes 11 hours or so if you watch from the first shot to the last shot.  Bam- 12:00 noon - 5:00 pm and I can see everything seems kind of compelling to me as a fan.  Baseball is trying to shorten time of game. College football did as well about 8 years ago with the clock rules and everyone hated it. The NFL views 3 hour windows to be damn near sacred for a reason. It's part of the popularity of soccer- the compressed schedule.  
I'm totally open to the idea it might suck.