Succession -- HBO

[Carl Spackler 3522]

On 12/8/2021 at 1:35 PM, Chewbacca said:

Can't remember if I've ever liked a show this much where all of the main characters are just awful people.  

I made a variation of this comment to the wife (no pics) the other night when catching up on Season 3 before the season finale yesterday, i.e., I dig the show a lot but would personally want to bitch slap every main character if it was real.  Roman in particular cracks me up, but I know I would want to throttle the snarky little shit at some point.  

Edited December 13, 2021 by Carl Spackler

[F250 28942]

Is Tom under the impression that Shiv and the others not know he sold them out? I was wondering that when he asked Shiv if she was OK. He acted as if he didn't know what was going on but surely he knows that Shiv figured it out. They were the only ones in on the plan.

 

 

[henrygandorf 29199]

23 minutes ago, F250 said:

Is Tom under the impression that Shiv and the others not know he sold them out? I was wondering that when he asked Shiv if she was OK. He acted as if he didn't know what was going on but surely he knows that Shiv figured it out. They were the only ones in on the plan.

it certainly won't take them long to sort that out, and i have no idea how they reconcile things moving forward (both business and their marriage).

looking back, there were so many times where everyone was jockeying for position, and so often shiv would be in the room while tom was not.  and the phone calls would always be like, "hey shiv, what about me, where will i land, is anyone looking out for me?"  shiv would always be all, "oh, tom, yeah, i mean, sure, you'll be in good shape" all the while only thinking about herself.

pretty sweet slapback all at once.

i also liked how they made tom be just vague enough with greg to avoid offseason rumors of "was greg really the one who sold them out?"  thank you, writers.  that shit is annoying.  i'm sure some on social media are still claiming they were right about kendall dying.

[Ted Lange 16153]

Tom sold them out, writers says as much

 

[BrazilHorn 6651]

I love Tom going for it and siding with Logan. Shiv has treated him like crap and their marriage is a joke anyways. May as well secure his future. 

[4th&Five 41701]

Like Logan won’t fuck him over like he did his kids?

[RomaVicta 30072]

2 hours ago, Carl Spackler said:

Roman in particular cracks me up, but I know I would want to throttle the snarky little shit at some point.  

Ironically, he shows the most heart. He made the appeal about love at the end. His defeated posture and pained sincerity moved me.

I believe I wrote earlier that the show has misplaced the real story. The real story is the competition between family members who do feel some sort of sick connection under the surface. The children who betrayed Logan are creatures of his making.

The machinations of the GoJo deal took center stage which was a dramatic error in my humble opinion. We care about the story because of the family conflicts. There was keen, snarky dialogue, but the story pretty much jumped up in down in the same place for the last few episodes. It had the feel of show just trying to make it to the end of the last episode. 

They were so stretched that the season was only nine episodes instead of the ten the previous seasons.

Since the mother was to be such an important player, she should have had more screen time to dramatize her decision. It's just sort of announced on the phone that she thinks the childrens' involvement is WayStar is poisonous. It makes me think that the resolution was a desperate ploy by the creative team that they came up with too late to do her justice.

Lastly, it's unclear what the final disposition of Waystar means for the lives of the siblings. The have to have a fresh start. I don't have a lot of investment in that devastating news because they will all presumably be starting off as millionaires. They won't be moving to homes in the 'burbs or cold water flats.

I love Roman. His attempt to buck up Logan was pretty great. He did it the only way he knows how: absurdism. The real crime was that he had to wait three quarters of an hour for a gin and tonic. Logan laughs. Roman has broken through.

It's a quality show, or I wouldn't be moved to think so much about it. I'll tune in in two or three years when they start a new season. I hate streaming channels' long long long hiatuses.

[SizzleChest 8291]

7 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Since the mother was to be such an important player, she should have had more screen time to dramatize her decision. It's just sort of announced on the phone that she thinks the childrens' involvement is WayStar is poisonous. It makes me think that the resolution was a desperate ploy by the creative team that they came up with too late to do her justice.

 

She did it for the goodies for her new husband, so she's as much a selfish twat as the rest of them.  She abandoned her oldest when he wanted to confess his role in the waiter's death, so her reasons for doing what she did were mack things, but virtue was not among them.

[TonyTexas 10567]

49 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I'll tune in in two or three years when they start a new season. I hate streaming channels' long long long hiatuses.

What makes you think it will be that long before getting a new season?  HBO ordered the season 4  in October. It might be a year before released but not 2 or 3. 

[henrygandorf 29199]

11 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

What makes you think it will be that long before getting a new season?  HBO ordered the season 4  in October. It might be a year before released but not 2 or 3. 

good luck clearing alan ruck's schedule.

[Guest Lobo]

33 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

good luck clearing alan ruck's schedule.

That's cold, man.  

He'll certainly be the most handsome 66-year old gent on Season 4.  

Speaking of "look great for their age"...didn't realize Dagmara Domiczyk (plays "Karolina") is my age within just a few weeks.  Probably because she's sexier than dead sexy and I'm still injured from catching my foot in our gate and am wondering about making myself another cup of soup tonight before bed.  But yeah, that's all that's keeping us apart sexually.   

[RomaVicta 30072]

2 hours ago, TonyTexas said:

What makes you think it will be that long before getting a new season?  HBO ordered the season 4  in October. It might be a year before released but not 2 or 3. 

I was just voicing my dislike of long hiatuses in general. I wasn't writing a news article.

[RomaVicta 30072]

3 hours ago, SizzleChest said:

She did it for the goodies for her new husband, so she's as much a selfish twat as the rest of them.  She abandoned her oldest when he wanted to confess his role in the waiter's death, so her reasons for doing what she did were mack things, but virtue was not among them.

I mainly would have liked to see them dramatized rather than occuring offscreen. You may be right about her motives. There was a lot of wasted screen time with people wondering about and panicing about the deal. A scene with mom could have been illuminating and entertaining.

[TwiceHorn 31678]

9 hours ago, A-Tex Devil said:

Here is the thing…. Logan is right. And my opinion is he wasn’t intending to fuck his kids over outside of their legacy in the continuing company (they were going to make a shitload in cash and stock).  They were too blind to see this is the right deal because they were convinced Logan was fucking them over.  He was freezing them out knowing they’d fuck up the negotiation, and he was right.  

Yep.  I was trying to envision some scenario where they lose anything but power, or the potential to assume it at some later date.

They would make a shit ton from the m/a in 99/100 scenarios, maybe 100/100.

And, they've never actually had any power, just illusory power granted and retaken by Logan.

[TwiceHorn 31678]

I'm having a failure of imagination here, but what exactly did Tom do?

There was some mumbling about how did Logan know the kids were coming right before Tom showed up.  So, pretty clear he warned Logan that they were going to try to undo the deal.

And maybe that alone was enough.  Prompted Logan to call Caroline and square up the holding company deal while they were en route?

ETA:  Ok, rewatched, she did tell Tom about the divorce agreement, so he not only warned Logan, but reminded him of that.

Also, McFadyen has been absolutely fantastic as Tom.  This show is full of scenery-chewers of various stripes, and he stands out.

Edited December 14, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[mchookem 16514]

10 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm having a failure of imagination here, but what exactly did Tom do?

There was some mumbling about how did Logan know the kids were coming right before Tom showed up.  So, pretty clear he warned Logan that they were going to try to undo the deal.

And maybe that alone was enough.  Prompted Logan to call Caroline and square up the holding company deal while they were en route?

i think that's it exactly. once he realized they really were going to try and stop him, that Roman wouldn't be persuaded and for once was siding with his siblings, he screams at Shiv and then motions or says something to his whor...er, assistant, who says something along the lines of 'yeah, we're done, she's off the line now' or something, and Logan indicates to get her back on the phone. then Caroline actually says something like "i really don't want to talk about this anymore tonight". 

so i think we can assume they were just talking to Caroline and whatever business they needed from her was literally just concluded when the kids showed up. 

[TwiceHorn 31678]

8 minutes ago, mchookem said:

i think that's it exactly. once he realized they really were going to try and stop him, that Roman wouldn't be persuaded and for once was siding with his siblings, he screams at Shiv and then motions or says something to his whor...er, assistant, who says something along the lines of 'yeah, we're done, she's off the line now' or something, and Logan indicates to get her back on the phone. then Caroline actually says something like "i really don't want to talk about this anymore tonight". 

so i think we can assume they were just talking to Caroline and whatever business they needed from her was literally just concluded when the kids showed up. 

I think the key to my not grasping it at first was how long the ride was from point a to point b.  More time to get it done than I initially thought.

 

[Patrick Bateman 3942]

28 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm having a failure of imagination here, but what exactly did Tom do?

There was some mumbling about how did Logan know the kids were coming right before Tom showed up.  So, pretty clear he warned Logan that they were going to try to undo the deal.

And maybe that alone was enough.  Prompted Logan to call Caroline and square up the holding company deal while they were en route?

ETA:  Ok, rewatched, she did tell Tom about the divorce agreement, so he not only warned Logan, but reminded him of that.

Also, McFadyen has been absolutely fantastic as Tom.  This show is full of scenery-chewers of various stripes, and he stands out.

Correct.  And yea, McFadayen has been wonderful the entire run, first as a bootlicker to his wife and now as one to Logan....... because as he told Kendall, "I've never seen Logan get fucked".  In the end, everyone loses in this scenario but everyone makes money, but make no mistake, even though Logan screams, "I win!", he's a huge loser here.  He's admitting defeat, he's admitting he can't hold on anymore, he can't find away out of this and finally...... he's admitting he's a terrible father.  Now, in his warped mind, I'm sure he'll blame genetics, but deep down, he knows he's a failure as man..... a huge success as a mogul and as a businessman, but as a father and husband, he's an abysmal failure.  I've always thought the best ending would be the kids end up fighting Dad and almost pull it off but Logan wins in the end, but loses the company and within the fight... his children.  Seems they're on that track.

 

[hornian 5251]

21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think the key to my not grasping it at first was how long the ride was from point a to point b.  More time to get it done than I initially thought.

 

Yeah, except how did Tom get there a few minutes after them? Did Logan send a helicopter? They kids had been on the road for a while when Shiv called him, and it was almost dark when he had his talk with Greg. Then he walks in 5 minutes behind them. 
 

But I’ll forgive that little incongruity, because the set up and delivery was on point. 

[Don Johnson 4758]

What did Tom need Greg for?

[kilroydos 267]

3 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

What did Tom need Greg for?

He wants him there as someone he trusts and is naturally "below" him in the pecking order.  It's the most honest relationship in the entire show.  It's the Nero story referenced before.

[Pig Bellmont 8746]

9 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm having a failure of imagination here, but what exactly did Tom do?

There was some mumbling about how did Logan know the kids were coming right before Tom showed up.  So, pretty clear he warned Logan that they were going to try to undo the deal.

And maybe that alone was enough.  Prompted Logan to call Caroline and square up the holding company deal while they were en route?

ETA:  Ok, rewatched, she did tell Tom about the divorce agreement, so he not only warned Logan, but reminded him of that.

Also, McFadyen has been absolutely fantastic as Tom.  This show is full of scenery-chewers of various stripes, and he stands out.

I don’t think this is what happened- it’s simpler to believe that Logan is just one step ahead. That said, if Tom blew it up to fuck Shiv over for treating him like garbage, and secure a role in the new company- that would be an interesting character development and add more context to the “deal with the devil” line

[Chuckie Finster 22759]

54 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

I don’t think this is what happened- it’s simpler to believe that Logan is just one step ahead. That said, if Tom blew it up to fuck Shiv over for treating him like garbage, and secure a role in the new company- that would be an interesting character development and add more context to the “deal with the devil” line

It absolutely was Tom.  The podcast with the writers posted above confirms it.

[oSuJeff97 3435]

43 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

I don’t think this is what happened- it’s simpler to believe that Logan is just one step ahead. That said, if Tom blew it up to fuck Shiv over for treating him like garbage, and secure a role in the new company- that would be an interesting character development and add more context to the “deal with the devil” line

Tom 100% blew it up by warning Logan. 

The thing about Tom the entire time is that he's been watching, paying attention and waiting.  Initially, he was happy to work his way up the corporate ladder leveraging his marriage to Shiv, because she wasn't a "threat" to his position in the company as long as she was working as a political consultant.

But her getting involved in the company changed everything for Tom, particularly when she became a candidate for CEO and began being mostly dismissive of Tom's aspirations: "Oh yeah... yeah... you'll be there..." was often her refrain.

Tom deciding to offer himself up to prison to Logan was the key turning point for him, because it changed the nature of his relationship with both Logan and Shiv. He saw how Logan had a new respect for him and he also saw how Shiv didn't necessarily give a shit that he was going to go to prison.

The diner scene with Kendall laid out Tom's intentions. He was always going to side with Logan. Because, as noted above, he's been watching and he knows that Logan would figure out a way to outmaneuver the kids.

Also, this:

 

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31678]

9 hours ago, hornian said:

Yeah, except how did Tom get there a few minutes after them? Did Logan send a helicopter? They kids had been on the road for a while when Shiv called him, and it was almost dark when he had his talk with Greg. Then he walks in 5 minutes behind them. 
 

But I’ll forgive that little incongruity, because the set up and delivery was on point. 

Yeah, and getting Caroline and a lawyer online to modify her divorce decree/agreement on the afternoon/evening of her wedding.

[TwiceHorn 31678]

1 hour ago, kilroydos said:

He wants him there as someone he trusts and is naturally "below" him in the pecking order.  It's the most honest relationship in the entire show.  It's the Nero story referenced before.

Yeah, although Tom has been demeaning and dismissive of Greg, he's also been the one person that is "bringing him along."  It's a "cruel to be kind" kind of thing.

[DaysOff 8002]

I need to stop drinking while watching this. If it wasn't for you people I'd have no idea Tom double crossed the kids.

[Pig Bellmont 8746]

9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, and getting Caroline and a lawyer online to modify her divorce decree/agreement on the afternoon/evening of her wedding.

All they need is a Memo of Understanding with basic terms and then iron out the rest later. 

[yoladu 4165]

10 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think the key to my not grasping it at first was how long the ride was from point a to point b.  More time to get it done than I initially thought.

 

not sure where Team Logan was holed up there at the end, but i know they were in Milan during the dick pic incident.

Using Florence as a stand in for Tuscany.... it is a 4hr drive from Milan to Tuscany. Maybe they were outside of Milan? It looked Tuscan-ish, but who knows.

Not sure how Tom got there so quickly, but it would be obvious to the Roy kid's that he wouldn't be there if Logan hadn't summoned him, which is just another sign of the back stabbing.

Edited December 14, 2021 by yoladu

[RomaVicta 30072]

41 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

I don’t think this is what happened- it’s simpler to believe that Logan is just one step ahead. That said, if Tom blew it up to fuck Shiv over for treating him like garbage, and secure a role in the new company- that would be an interesting character development and add more context to the “deal with the devil” line

I appreciate the illumination above this post and I agree with Pig's less simple analysis. He can be and has become a colder mercenary than the siblings because he doesn't share a childhood with them. 

I'm corny enough to believe he actually loved Shiv which was likely a bonus to his mercenary pursuit of her. By this episode, she's basically dismissing the notion of love altogether in her patronizing response to Tom's need for it.

Tom goes full mercenary and includes the only guy who cares about him at all: Greg.

[Prepuce of Doom 21112]

I was pretty baked when I watched it, but I also thought it was left a bit ambiguous. I can certainly see the Tom explanation in hindsight (and apparently someone official confirmed it in a podcast or whatever), but at the time I just assumed that Logan had independently anticipated and undercut the sibling revolt based on the fact that he had already left them out of everything for as long as he did. 

Tom's "want to be a part of something big" bit with Greg could just as easily have been an argument in favor of throwing in with the siblings against Logan as it was an indication that he was selling the siblings out. And Logan's knowing look at Tom with the hand on his shoulder could be viewed as either a "thanks for the heads up" or an "I still appreciate you agreeing to serve time for us, but you're fucked now that your wife's lifeline is severed so fuck off and have a nice life" or similar. 

[kilroydos 267]

9 minutes ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

I was pretty baked when I watched it, but I also thought it was left a bit ambiguous. I can certainly see the Tom explanation in hindsight (and apparently someone official confirmed it in a podcast or whatever), but at the time I just assumed that Logan had independently anticipated and undercut the sibling revolt based on the fact that he had already left them out of everything for as long as he did. 

Tom's "want to be a part of something big" bit with Greg could just as easily have been an argument in favor of throwing in with the siblings against Logan as it was an indication that he was selling the siblings out. And Logan's knowing look at Tom with the hand on his shoulder could be viewed as either a "thanks for the heads up" or an "I still appreciate you agreeing to serve time for us, but you're fucked now that your wife's lifeline is severed so fuck off and have a nice life" or similar. 

I think the timing of his Greg conversation is meant to imply that he is throwing in against Logan, but the misdirect is that he was selling out his own wife.  That's the Evil he's talking about.

Being able to say "what's wrong?" to his wife with a straight face at the end means that Tom has finally learned the lesson and given himself over to the worst impulses.  He even said it to Kendall weeks ago.  "I've never seen Logan get fucked...not once."  No chance he's going up against that to support a wife who won't even pretend to love him anymore.

[yoladu 4165]

7 minutes ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

I was pretty baked when I watched it, but I also thought it was left a bit ambiguous. I can certainly see the Tom explanation in hindsight (and apparently someone official confirmed it in a podcast or whatever), but at the time I just assumed that Logan had independently anticipated and undercut the sibling revolt based on the fact that he had already left them out of everything for as long as he did. 

Tom's "want to be a part of something big" bit with Greg could just as easily have been an argument in favor of throwing in with the siblings against Logan as it was an indication that he was selling the siblings out. And Logan's knowing look at Tom with the hand on his shoulder could be viewed as either a "thanks for the heads up" or an "I still appreciate you agreeing to serve time for us, but you're fucked now that your wife's lifeline is severed so fuck off and have a nice life" or similar. 

based on Shiv's initial reaction, posture, the way she reacts to Tom touching her as he was "consoling" her, it's hard to imagine it wasn't Tom. Even Tom being there -  he would not have been without being invited/summoned by Logan.

Also, the discussion with Greg after Shiv's phone call. Tom was looking for someone, anyone to be on 'his' Team for this maneuver.

[henrygandorf 29199]

none of it was ambiguous come on people. stop trying to turn everything into the sopranos finale. 

[Prepuce of Doom 21112]

It was ambiguous to those of us who weren't sober at the time.

[F250 28942]

It appears that we need an Inebriated Phags thread for this show.

[henrygandorf 29199]

19 minutes ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

It was ambiguous to those of us who weren't sober at the time.

[A-Tex Devil 2465]

1 hour ago, henrygandorf said:

none of it was ambiguous come on people. stop trying to turn everything into the sopranos finale. 

Correct.  Tom told us he was going to push his wife off a cliff earlier this season and make Greg his wife.

I think, if it's not too dry, the first part of the season 4 will be getting this thing approved (or not), the BigTech/Antitrust angle vis a vis Youth Hitler presidential candidate and the VP, plus the board and stockholder dynamics and approval.  They've written themselves into a corner a bit, and while they are smart enough to get out of it.

Perhaps an episode at the convention?  Shiv goes back into politics and backs the moderate candidate that wants to put her dad in jail?

[henrygandorf 29199]

5 minutes ago, A-Tex Devil said:

Correct.  Tom told us he was going to push his wife off a cliff earlier this season and make Greg his wife.

I think, if it's not too dry, the first part of the season 4 will be getting this thing approved (or not), the BigTech/Antitrust angle vis a vis Youth Hitler presidential candidate and the VP, plus the board and stockholder dynamics and approval.  They've written themselves into a corner a bit, and while they are smart enough to get out of it.

Perhaps an episode at the convention?  Shiv goes back into politics and backs the moderate candidate that wants to put her dad in jail?

yeah, wouldn't surprise me if we see more politics.  justin kirk is a pretty big deal to just come pop in for one episode.

[oSuJeff97 3435]

3 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

none of it was ambiguous come on people. stop trying to turn everything into the sopranos finale. 

LOL this.

It was blatantly and plainly obvious, from Tom's discussion with Greg to Logan affectionately patting Tom on the shoulder after he just went scorched earth on his kids.

[Don Johnson 4758]

I do find it a little unbelievable that Logan wouldn't already know that the kids held a supermajority of the holding company through the divorce (or whatever the detail was).  That's something you negotiate and never, ever forget.  He wouldn't need Tom to tell him.

But whatever, details...

[billfromlaketravis 11601]

Tom told Logan the kids were coming for him. I’m sure he knew the details of his divorce inside and out. 

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, they could have explained it away with some quick line of dialogue from Jerri or Karl about a condition of her deal being a simultaneous reverse split or internal buyback mimicking ESOP's or someshit.  But hey, forget it...they're rollin'...

[henrygandorf 29199]

18 minutes ago, billfromlaketravis said:

Tom told Logan the kids were coming for him. I’m sure he knew the details of his divorce inside and out. 

yeah, knowing their plan with some time to spare made all the difference.  if they come in guns blazing then it's a race to get the mother on the phone and who knows what happens at that point.  

[henrygandorf 29199]

i guess the real question is - now that the sale can go through and logan cashes out, what does tom have to gain in the new situation? 

i would assume most of the waystar clutter would be swept the fuck out under new management.  in that new scenario, logan what, retires?  leaving tom to...probably divorce shiv and not get much because there's likely a vicious prenup on a short marriage?  are we to believe that as part of the deal, logan tells mattison that tom needs to stay on as head of atn?  i assume something like that would be part of it, just don't know how realistic that is.

not sure it'll matter anyway, since i can only assume the entire next season will be the legal fight over whether the sale can even go through.  but after my s3 predictions (hopes), what the fuck do i know?

[mchookem 16514]

5 hours ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

It was ambiguous to those of us who weren't sober at the time.

 

[babysdaddy 2730]

7 hours ago, oSuJeff97 said:

 

Tom deciding to offer himself up to prison to Logan was the key turning point for him, because it changed the nature of his relationship with both Logan and Shiv. He saw how Logan had a new respect for him and he also saw how Shiv didn't necessarily give a shit that he was going to go to prison.

 

 

 

 

 

It wasn't just a new respect for him.  In the episode when Tom finds out prison is off the table, Logan walks by him and puts his hand on Tom's shoulder and says/whispers "I won't forget it"

[hobbes2702 13150]

54 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

i guess the real question is - now that the sale can go through and logan cashes out, what does tom have to gain in the new situation? 

i would assume most of the waystar clutter would be swept the fuck out under new management.  in that new scenario, logan what, retires?  leaving tom to...probably divorce shiv and not get much because there's likely a vicious prenup on a short marriage?  are we to believe that as part of the deal, logan tells mattison that tom needs to stay on as head of atn?  i assume something like that would be part of it, just don't know how realistic that is.

not sure it'll matter anyway, since i can only assume the entire next season will be the legal fight over whether the sale can even go through.  but after my s3 predictions (hopes), what the fuck do i know?

When Murdoch cashed out didn’t he still maintain control over Fox News? Maybe something like that is in the cards

[mchookem 16514]

i feel like Shiv 100% believed Tom was going to end up in prison when she both agreed with the idea and continuously reassured him he would not. Roman was accurate in his taunting her about that.

Edited December 14, 2021 by mchookem

[NOMAAA 1696]

Tom is obviously “rated”.