Succession -- HBO

[wild_turkey 3081]

I’m also of the opinion that Tom has emotionally moved on from Shiv. She asked him if they had a future and he was pretty damn apathetic with his “I honestly don’t know” response. Gone are the days of him eagerly welcoming her back.

Shiv and the entire Roy family shat all over him for a long enough period of time that he gave that dream up. He’s now accepting the CEO position as the only remaining positive that he can get in this situation.

Shiv can fuck whoever she wants, which she always did anyways. Their marriage is a sham that holds a small amount of convenience but nothing more.

[Buzzrock 14785]

6 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

as for the language, somebody mentioned it upthread, but shiv ending every other sentence with comma then "yeah?" got a little aggravating over the past few episodes.  seems like an english or irish pattern and she really only started doing it recently.  i know it's not the actress (who's australian), it's the script.

2-3 episodes ago, i said out loud that she was doing it.  then i said, "again", and then "again", and it got to the point where she did it 7-10x in the last 15 min of an episode i couldn't keep up.  can't remember when it intro'd, but it's not the first time the show has started using language then repeated it over and over as if it's been part of the show the whole time.

at the end of last season, the phrase "he rates you" or "he doesn't even rate you" which i know to be british slang, if that's what you want to call it, was used 3-4x in the last 90 min of the season but hadn't been uttered previously or since.  when roman beefed it at the funeral, kendall said, "you fucked it" which is another more british expression.  "you fucked it" or some form of that was used 4-5x from the funeral scene until the end of the season but again, not previously.

i know the creators of the show are brits and different people write different scripts, along with dialogue polishers.  i also know that in the show they grew up with a british mom and logan is a scot, so those could conceivably exist in their vocabularies, but the timing of when and with what frequency they've been used has stood out to me.  not as a positive or negative, just something i've noticed.

Ken did the “yeah” thing a ton too. It was weird. 

[henrygandorf 28824]

so i am officially not going crazy. 

https://decider.com/2023/05/23/succession-hbo-kendall-shiv-roman-yeah-count/

[MissingInAction 24416]

"Yeagh, ok, right" etc added to the end of a statement is a sign of insecurity. Same as people who always speak like they are asking a question at the end of every sentence.

Those three have no fucking clue and they knew it on some level.

[F250 28491]

9 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

"Yeagh, ok, right" etc added to the end of a statement is a sign of insecurity. Same as people who always speak like they are asking a question at the end of every sentence.

Those three have no fucking clue and they knew it on some level.

This how I understood Ken's frequent use of the word. I assumed it was his lack of confidence when making decisions and wanting reassurance. Same with Shiv but didn't really notice it with Roman.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18332]

There's also the Logan, "Uhh huh," permeating the show. Someone should count those as well.

[henrygandorf 28824]

42 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

"Yeagh, ok, right" etc added to the end of a statement is a sign of insecurity. Same as people who always speak like they are asking a question at the end of every sentence.

Those three have no fucking clue and they knew it on some level.

i know they included all the yeahs in the show, but shiv is the only one that does it the way she does it, which like i said, sounds very british to me.  like it's its own sentence.

[MissingInAction 24416]

28 minutes ago, F250 said:

This how I understood Ken's frequent use of the word. I assumed it was his lack of confidence when making decisions and wanting reassurance. Same with Shiv but didn't really notice it with Roman.

Roman offered nothing but offensive quips to cover his own insecurities. 

Without his father to protect him and reassure him he had a total break down.

This show is so well written. The character development may be unparalleled. 

[MissingInAction 24416]

2 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

i know they included all the yeahs in the show, but shiv is the only one that does it the way she does it, which like i said, sounds very british to me.  like it's its own sentence.

I seem to remember her mother doing the exact same thing.

[Chopper 16620]

On 6/1/2023 at 9:59 AM, Reynolds Woodcock said:

There are multiple interviews with the actual director of the episode where he talks about Shiv‘s thought process leading up to her no vote, and specifically how seeing Ken with his feet up on Logan’s desk broing it up with Stewy was a turning point.

Maybe you think a Tom/Shiv alliance would have been better writing, but that isn’t actually what happened.

Please point to one interview with the WRITER of the show supporting your claim. I'll wait.

On 6/1/2023 at 10:26 AM, hobbes2702 said:

He called Mattson. That’s why the very next scene is Mattson yelling at his people to secure votes.
Rewatch the episode or something because you clearly missed it.

It absolutely was spontaneous and I’m not sure why you’re continuing to argue this.

And who does Mattson call? All that "securing the votes" changed nothing with any of the votes except for Shiv. Why is that? Why would Shiv wait for Tom to ride away with her, just minutes after she practically begged him to get back together and he rejected her?

This is one of the problems I had with the finale...it was completely incongruous just so it could end the way the writer wanted. When Tom betrayed Shiv the first time, she was ready to divorce him and start a company with her brothers. He then betrayed her a second and third time (with her father and then with Mattson) and then flatly rejected her as she (out of character) begged him to come back, and that's when she decided she’d rather reward him than work with her brothers again. 

Maybe she came to realize how much she truly enjoys watching Tom try to suck the biggest dick in the room. Yeah I'm sure that's it. Because she sure as hell doesn't need his money and he add no prestige to her life - he is who he always was, the guy trying to suck a big dick. 

 

[hobbes2702 12533]

9 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Please point to one interview with the WRITER of the show supporting your claim. I'll wait.

And who does Mattson call? All that "securing the votes" changed nothing with any of the votes except for Shiv. Why is that? Why would Shiv wait for Tom to ride away with her, just minutes after she practically begged him to get back together and he rejected her?

This is one of the problems I had with the finale...it was completely incongruous just so it could end the way the writer wanted. When Tom betrayed Shiv the first time, she was ready to divorce him and start a company with her brothers. He then betrayed her a second and third time (with her father and then with Mattson) and then flatly rejected her as she (out of character) begged him to come back, and that's when she decided she’d rather reward him than work with her brothers again. 

Maybe she came to realize how much she truly enjoys watching Tom try to suck the biggest dick in the room. Yeah I'm sure that's it. Because she sure as hell doesn't need his money and he add no prestige to her life - he is who he always was, the guy trying to suck a big dick. 

 

The problem you had with the finale is a lack of understanding of what happened. You’re just wrong dude. I dunno what you’re not understanding about that.

[Chopper 16620]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

The problem you had with the finale is a lack of understanding of what happened. You’re just wrong dude. I dunno what you’re not understanding about that.

There's a simple question you could answer and that I've asked more than once with nobody addressing it. Saying you're wrong over and over just shows you're an asshole and can't argue your point. Mattson "securing the votes" is meaningless. They were losing. It wasn't about 'securing." They needed to flip a vote or is that too complex for you to grasp?

Are you the same dope who thinks it was an ingenious baller move to have a series where nobody liked any of the major characters? That would be the same series that spent millions of dollars, lasted only 3 short seasons, only had 2 million viewers, and has nobody clamoring for more or even a spinoff?

[henrygandorf 28824]

15 minutes ago, Chopper said:

...as she (out of character) begged him to come back, and that's when she decided she’d rather reward him than work with her brothers again. 

Maybe she came to realize how much she truly enjoys watching Tom try to suck the biggest dick in the room. Yeah I'm sure that's it. Because she sure as hell doesn't need his money and he add no prestige to her life - he is who he always was, the guy trying to suck a big dick. 

i think the pregnancy had a lot to do with that.  saying it out loud, making it public, basically coming to terms with the fact that she was having it (not aborting it).  she didn't want ken to get the big job, and so she settled into the deep dark descent of becoming her mother. 

none of the roy children "won" at the end.  it was all about degrees of losing (ken), acceptance (shiv), and possible rehabilitation (roman).

[Celery Man 20607]

to be fair i would also hate the finale if the events that were shown were incongruous with my interpretation of what happened

[hobbes2702 12533]

56 minutes ago, Chopper said:

There's a simple question you could answer and that I've asked more than once with nobody addressing it. Saying you're wrong over and over just shows you're an asshole and can't argue your point. Mattson "securing the votes" is meaningless. They were losing. It wasn't about 'securing." They needed to flip a vote or is that too complex for you to grasp?

Are you the same dope who thinks it was an ingenious baller move to have a series where nobody liked any of the major characters? That would be the same series that spent millions of dollars, lasted only 3 short seasons, only had 2 million viewers, and has nobody clamoring for more or even a spinoff?

So you’re a moron. Got it. Have a good one.

[Celery Man 20607]

i forgot about the frozen bread heels. I don't know any billionaires or billionaire ex-wives and I don't know if there's anything specifically British and/or Irish culture about that but I have a wealthy elderly Irish mother in law and frozen bread heels from 15 years ago (and weird fucking pudding stew chutney dishes that might contain them) absolutely resonated with me.

"Wait a minute this bag says Roman Meal how many hurricanes has this survived?"

[F250 28491]

20 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

i forgot about the frozen bread heels. I don't know any billionaires or billionaire ex-wives and I don't know if there's anything specifically British and/or Irish culture about that but I have a wealthy elderly Irish mother in law and frozen bread heels from 15 years ago (and weird fucking pudding stew chutney dishes that might contain them) absolutely resonated with me.

"Wait a minute this bag says Roman Meal how many hurricanes has this survived?"

The other night, I picked up a nearly empty loaf of bread bag and looked into it only saw the bread ends, held it up and said "why are there only knobbies in here."

So this hits close to home.

 

 

[Wade 463]

1 hour ago, Chopper said:

There's a simple question you could answer and that I've asked more than once with nobody addressing it. Saying you're wrong over and over just shows you're an asshole and can't argue your point. Mattson "securing the votes" is meaningless. They were losing. It wasn't about 'securing." They needed to flip a vote or is that too complex for you to grasp?

I can kind of see your point that it was a tad bit sloppy at the end.  It's not clear how Tom immediately knew it was Greg who leaked, because several folks were aware of the CEO issue.

I find it hard to believe that Mattson could have convinced a just-betrayed Shiv to switch her vote in the limo ride to the meeting (the kids went straight from learning Tom was the guy to the meeting.  They did ride in separate cars, so the call could have been made).

But in no way did the writers telegraph that Shiv's vote switch was anything but an emotional reaction to seeing Kent in his dad's chair, and recoiling.

[Chopper 16620]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

So you’re a moron. Got it. Have a good one.

Here's a couple things for you to read about to learn more about yourself: confirmation bias, delusional disorder.

Here's something for you to think about when you're thinking about the tv show Succession: "Securing the votes" when you're losing and how that's something that doesn't happen ever in life.

Also in general how there can be more than one legitimate interpretation to certain events in life.

And also go fuck yourself you arrogant but brain dead fucking twat.

[mchookem 15539]

[Chopper 16620]

52 minutes ago, Wade said:

I can kind of see your point that it was a tad bit sloppy at the end.  It's not clear how Tom immediately knew it was Greg who leaked, because several folks were aware of the CEO issue.

I find it hard to believe that Mattson could have convinced a just-betrayed Shiv to switch her vote in the limo ride to the meeting (the kids went straight from learning Tom was the guy to the meeting.  They did ride in separate cars, so the call could have been made).

But in no way did the writers telegraph that Shiv's vote switch was anything but an emotional reaction to seeing Kent in his dad's chair, and recoiling.

It's interesting to me how people want to wave away the CEO leak as just the mistake of an arrogant billionaire. That sure seems like quite an assumption people are willing to make in order to have the ending all nice and pretty. Another thing about the leak is that Greg got the info first with subterfuge but then it apparently was given to people within Waystar, apparently on purpose, as directed by Mattson. Karolina, head of PR, for example, who would have had a duty to report it to her boss, one of the co-CEOs. Just a total lack of information security by Mattson, upon which the entire deal relied. But no biggie, why bother with such small details.

I'm not arguing that Shiv necessarily changed her mind when they (Mattson and/or Tom) pleaded with or begged or briber her. It's probably more like her character to not give a direct response were they to cajole her for her vote, but then to mull on it until the time came for her to cast it. If they hadn't talked to her in advance then what would be the explanation for how she's ready, waiting and willing to ride home with Tom in the limo?

 

[hobbes2702 12533]

29 minutes ago, Chopper said:

Here's a couple things for you to read about to learn more about yourself: confirmation bias, delusional disorder.

Here's something for you to think about when you're thinking about the tv show Succession: "Securing the votes" when you're losing and how that's something that doesn't happen ever in life.

Also in general how there can be more than one legitimate interpretation to certain events in life.

And also go fuck yourself you arrogant but brain dead fucking twat.

The dude who’s been insulting to everyone in the thread that actually understood what was going on is mad someone called him names. 

[Chopper 16620]

4 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

The dude who’s been insulting to everyone in the thread that actually understood what was going on is mad someone called him names.

I gave you much-needed advice but I already knew you'd miss the point.  Because that's who you are.

[hobbes2702 12533]

Just now, Chopper said:

I gave you much-needed advice but I already knew you'd miss the point.  Because that's who you are.

You understand me so well. Almost as well as you understand TV shows.

[Chopper 16620]

4 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Almost as well as you understand TV shows.

This goes to the foppery of thinking your interpretation is the only one of any value. Keep that up and you're going to be the shoe store stock boy for a long, long time.

[hobbes2702 12533]

[CurlyDumps 4414]

One visual cue that hints at what's going with the story during the climax is the kids arguing outside the boardroom. It was a callback to Shiv's funeral speech. At the end of it all they're still just spoiled children squealing outside the room where the adults are getting shit done.

Shiv didn't make a secret alliance. For starters,  dramatically it doesn't make sense given that the characters and audience both know Tom was picked by Mattson. We saw Shiv's honest emotional reaction to the news. Shiv was pissed off at Tom and remained so through that final shot in the car (among other emotions - she was clearly conflicted).

Everything leading up to that scene from the pilot onward told me that nobody was going to "win." Shiv was being petty and vindictive and couldn't handle Ken winning.

Edited June 2, 2023 by CurlyDumps

[Chopper 16620]

6 hours ago, CurlyDumps said:

Shiv didn't make a secret alliance.

Some have argued argued this or some derivative but it leans toward being a strawman. While it's a possibility it's more likely "they" discussed her flipping and then she later decided to do it.

Something had to cause her to wait and then go home with the husband who just minutes earlier had told her he wasn't interested in rekindling their marriage.

Think about it this way: If they didn't approach Shiv while they were looking for one Board member to flip at the last minute, what does that say about Mattson's strategy and the plot? Pretty damn foolish, right?

If you're going to argue Shiv had no contact with them or didn't listen to their offer, it seems to me you would also need an explanation for her behavior in waiting for and then going home with Tom when they weren't even living together at the time. Or maybe you just say yeah that didn't happen, there's no explanation needed for her behavior and you accept it's just another hole in the plot.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Chopper

[CooterBrown 17735]

ScreenCrush on YouTube has a good analysis of the finale. He said the turning point for Shiv was when Ken asked for their permission to sit in Logan’s desk chair. Instead of being an adult and leaning in to get to work, he spun in the chair like a kid. The look she gives him is realization he’s playing dress up and is not serious people.

[TOR 5190]

Is this the shoulder-check thread?

[Aqua Buddha 14217]

5 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

ScreenCrush on YouTube has a good analysis of the finale. He said the turning point for Shiv was when Ken asked for their permission to sit in Logan’s desk chair. Instead of being an adult and leaning in to get to work, he spun in the chair like a kid. The look she gives him is realization he’s playing dress up and is not serious people.

I noticed that as well on the rewatch.  She also gave a similar look to Roman at the boardroom table while he was picking at his bandage.  Then, as they followed her to the other room during the vote, they started arguing and fighting.  She realized they were just grown children.  I've heard some people say that had they not followed her, she might have kept her vote but they started fighting and wrestling and that sealed it.

[Sawbonz 26871]

9 hours ago, Chopper said:

Something had to cause her to wait and then go home with the husband who just minutes earlier had told her he wasn't interested in rekindling their marriage

If you haven’t notice they have a somewhat complicated relationship

[Frank The Tank 1438]

Did Derka get a new sock?

[Celery Man 20607]

Surely some events transpired between Tom saying he wasn’t sure if there was anything left and Shiv getting in the car with him.

There are a number of presumably self interested board members who aren’t as tightly intertwined with the family dynamics and interpersonal conflict surrounding the ownership of Logan’s chair who would, from the perspective of Mattson, be more inclined to flip their vote than the person who 20 minutes ago found out you betrayed her both professionally and personally and is currently on a warpath to destroy you and her estranged baby daddy who you have tagged for CEO. Nevertheless, if Matteson’s plan was foolish that would be consistent with what we have seen from the show.

[Bama Chick 28595]

FFS

Will Jesse Armstrong telling you you’re wrong make you shut up @Chopper ?

[oh_snap 692]

Maybe, but then Frank, who was aligned with Mattson and had the ability to delay the vote, let the vote go on. He would never do that unless he knew for certain Mattson was going to win. He couldn’t let the kids win, not get his golden parachute, and what then get fired?
So Shiv’s last second flip flop makes no sense. 

[Celery Man 20607]

I mean they had their sibling meltdown in a glass walled room visible from where the board was meeting. He may have applied his decades of valuable business insight to take a calculated risk on which way the wind was blowing sometime around when he saw Kendall rip Roman’s head open.

[oh_snap 692]

Lmao at the idea of a seasoned exec with decades of valuable business insight gambling a golden parachute on a hunch when he has better alternatives (ie delay vote and keep whipping). A real vet doesn’t let that vote happen unless he knows he’s gonna win. At the very least he could vote last to ensure he’s on the winning side. We’ve seen all series, it’s all about self interest and self preservation with those people. Of course him voting last isn’t as dramatic for tv. 

[Chopper 16620]

5 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

I noticed that as well on the rewatch.  She also gave a similar look to Roman at the boardroom table while he was picking at his bandage.  Then, as they followed her to the other room during the vote, they started arguing and fighting.  She realized they were just grown children.  I've heard some people say that had they not followed her, she might have kept her vote but they started fighting and wrestling and that sealed it.

edit - forgot to comment on this. yes I saw a gif of when big bro sat in daddy's chair. Her eyes bulged and she did a double take.

1 hour ago, Bama Chick said:

FFS

Will Jesse Armstrong telling you you’re wrong make you shut up @Chopper ?

FFS is a link too much to expect? Are you blind to the two sentences at the beginning of the paragraph? "I prefer people to draw their own conclusions...But I'll say what I think." Now run along, find a link, and look up the word definitive in the dictionary.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Chopper

[Reynolds Woodcock 4629]

Any fellow corporate law dogs or bankers figure out the timeline on this deal? Am I right that Logan struck a biz-level deal for a partial divestiture at price X, but the board hadn’t officially approved and thus definitive docs were never signed (in which case I have some serious questions about confi given all the overt public references to the deal/regulatory concerns).

If the above is true, then the final episode would be the board finally voting to approve a deal, which is the new and improved full deal, followed by a signing ceremony of the merger agreement. In which case, I’m looking forward to Season 5 of Succession when Ken and Stewy rally the shareholders to block the deal from closing!

[F250 28491]

6 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

If you haven’t notice they have a somewhat complicated relationship

Throughout the season Shiv started to be drawn towards Tom as he was pulling away from her. The less nice he became towards her the more she seemed to want to get back together. I thought Tom becoming the CEO also made him the new Logan for Shiv. Her daddy issues were now directed at Tom and with the baby she was to become Caroline.

There was no required offscreen deal between the two, it was just Shiv coming full circle on her upbringing.

 

[F250 28491]

5 hours ago, Celery Man said:

Nevertheless, if Matteson’s plan was foolish that would be consistent with what we have seen from the show.

It would be out of character for blood brick guy to carry out a foolish plan. That doesn't happen in real life. Billionaires don't make foolish business decisions.

 

[Sawbonz 26871]

21 minutes ago, F250 said:

Throughout the season Shiv started to be drawn towards Tom as he was pulling away from her. The less nice he became towards her the more she seemed to want to get back together. I thought Tom becoming the CEO also made him the new Logan for Shiv. Her daddy issues were now directed at Tom and with the baby she was to become Caroline.

There was no required offscreen deal between the two, it was just Shiv coming full circle on her upbringing.

 

Never dated a billionaire’s daughter but I dated a few CEO daughters with daddy issues. Once you figured them out the hard part wasn’t keeping them it was getting rid of them. 

[Sawbonz 26871]

On 6/2/2023 at 1:56 PM, F250 said:

The other night, I picked up a nearly empty loaf of bread bag and looked into it only saw the bread ends, held it up and said "why are there only knobbies in here."

So this hits close to home.

 

 

I’m the only one in my house who will eat the heels. My eldest is a serious person. Not sure if the younger kids will be but I’m holding out hope

[CooterBrown 17735]

I’m the only one in my house who will eat the heels. My eldest is a serious person. Not sure if the younger kids will be but I’m holding out hope

Butt bread is best bread.

[F250 28491]

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

I’m the only one in my house who will eat the heels. My eldest is a serious person. Not sure if the younger kids will be but I’m holding out hope

I've used them for grilled cheese sandwiches for my kids. Just keep the butt side facing the cheese and the kids don't notice.

[Dbeasy 14783]

Chopper has managed to make himself more unlikeable than any of the characters of Succession. Quite an accomplishment.

[Sawbonz 26871]

8 hours ago, F250 said:

I've used them for grilled cheese sandwiches for my kids. Just keep the butt side facing the cheese and the kids don't notice.

Yeah that worked until they were old enough to make their own

[Buzzrock 14785]

This is fantastic

https://www.imdb.com/video/vi2953954329

”He’s a good actor.”

😂

Edited June 4, 2023 by Buzzrock

[Bozo_Casanova 25874]

On 6/2/2023 at 1:32 PM, Celery Man said:

"Wait a minute this bag says Roman Meal how many hurricanes has this survived?"

I miss Roman meal