The destruction of America's public education system

[Texas Jeff 1999]

2 hours ago, LCHorn said:

Can you elaborate on how providing a tax break to this firm actually increases AISD revenue and is shielded from recapture? 

Texas offered school districts and businesses something called a Section 313 plan, that was supposed to make us more competitive as a state in attracting local businesses. I am not an expert on this but I'll tell you what I know from what I've read.  The Section 313 program is getting sunset on Dec 31, 2022, so many businesses have been preparing applications this year to make it in before the program sunsets.

But, if you really want to know, here are the basics:

Under the program, a school district can voluntarily reduce the size of a taxable new development for ten years.  This reduction is done for the O&M part of the taxes .. the part that is to pay teachers and maintain buildings, but not for the I&S part ... the part that goes to pay for buildings.

So, for example, a company could invest $1 billion in property within AISD boundaries.  AISD agrees, for ten years, to reduce the value of the property for O&M purposes to $100 million, but the I&S valuation remains at $1 billion.

If the school district has a tax burden of 90 cents for the $100 million part, the company pays $900,000 in tax per year to the school district for that part, rather than $9,000,000.  If the school district has a tax burden of 10 cents for the $1 billion part, the company pays $1,000,000 in tax per year for that part (what they would normally owe).

So, you would think the school district would be short by about $8,100,000 in tax to pay teachers. But that is not how school taxes work.  In Austin, we collect way more taxes than we are allowed to keep ... this is Robin Hood.  In Texas, a school district collects taxes based on a tax rate, and gets to keep a portion that is based purely on a funding formula.  So no matter how much or how little tax we collect, we get exactly the amount allocated to us by our funding formula.

If we are "entitled" to $500 million per our formula and we collect $900 million in tax, $400 million goes to the state.  If we collect $500 million in taxes, we keep it all because our entitlement is $500 million.  What Austin ISD would or would not collect in taxes from NXP has no impact on the money we would receive for education.

Now the extra money we would have collected from NXP *would* have gone to the state, not to Austin ISD.  And, in theory, it would be spent on education for others.  But that is not how the system works. The Robin Hood money coming in does not go directly to other school districts.  They get their money based on the funding formula, not from Robin Hood dollars.  Currently the state is collecting more in Robin Hood dollars than they are spending on other school districts, so some of your Robin Hood tax dollars are going to the state as a state surplus.  Currently this state surplus, from Robin Hood and other funds, is about $27 billion for the next two years.  Austin ISD, through Robin Hood, might contribute $1.5 billion of that from our Robin Hood surplus.

So, that is a lot of numbers ... but the lost NXP tax revenue would not have affected the money that AISD had to pay teachers, nor would it have affected the money going to other school districts.  It would have slightly shrunk the state surplus.  In addition, the new investment would have been taxed at the full I&S rate, which would have lowered the amount of tax that we all pay for bonds to build new schools.  I did some rough math, and the tax from the development would have roughly paid for a new elementary school over about 20 years.

In addition, this agreement allowed NXP give back some of their tax savings directly to the school district, without going through the recapture system.   This amount was up to some debate, but it was between $66 million and $44 million of new money to the district over ten years.  This would have been absolutely additional money to the district.

If NXP decides to build somewhere else, all of this has no value for Texas.  No additional money to AISD and no additional tax revenue to help pay off bonds.  No fab manufacturing jobs for our newly graduated high school kids to take.  All of that might be in Arizona, a state that already has a lot of fab infrastructure and expertise in place.

Finally, NXP's investment would bring construction jobs and fabrication jobs to the Austin area.  That would have meant more local taxpayers to help spread the tax burden to more people, which would have lowered everyone's school, city, county, and ACC taxes.  It could have sparked a wave of fab facility development in Austin, as the US tries to reduce our dependance on foreign suppliers.

More info here for those that are interested in Section 313 and it's sunset...

[Captainant 28529]

It sure seems like a more wholistic approach to educational funding, rather than subjecting our educational system to """free market economic forces""" (read: corporate welfare), would be more successful approach with better outcomes generally for students. 

But who am I kidding? This is Texas! Fuck your educational settings, send some more guns in!

[Willfully Horn 8259]

POs rep to TJ for breaking that down. 
 

The state holding on to education dollars is grotesque, and it furthers the majority’s goal of dumbing down Texas students.

[CooterBrown 18288]

Bless your heart for thinking the state leg would let Austin, of all school districts, keep any windfall. Hot Wheels would hold an emergency session to fuck it up.

[horn4life 3838]

All Robin hood is for is to allow millionaires toy ranches and farms with Ag exemptions, and shift the bill to city folks.

If the toy ranches and farms had to pay property taxes then the need to shift money into these "poorer" districts would be unnecessary.  But hey when you can spend $20,000 on some pregnant cows, sell the cows for close to what you paid and avoid property tax on a $5,000,000 property, that's a bargain.  Now this is in no way denigrating to actual ranchers and farmers who make their living ranching and farming, but a lot of taxes are not collected because of folks taking the ag exemption whose income is nearly entirely unrelated to ranching.  And the income supposedly produced that created the exemption is far less than the tax avoided.

Of course there is also shit tons of money in the state coffers, but it must be spent without any accountability on "the border" instead.  But hell the bottom line the only children the majority of the Republican party cares about from a legislative capacity is unborn children.  What needs to happen is parents and ESPECIALLY younger voters need to vote on education.  When that changes Texas will move out of the basement of school funding.

[Biff Tannen 46163]

2 hours ago, horn4life said:

All Robin hood is for is to allow millionaires toy ranches and farms with Ag exemptions, and shift the bill to city folks.

If the toy ranches and farms had to pay property taxes then the need to shift money into these "poorer" districts would be unnecessary.  But hey when you can spend $20,000 on some pregnant cows, sell the cows for close to what you paid and avoid property tax on a $5,000,000 property, that's a bargain.  Now this is in no way denigrating to actual ranchers and farmers who make their living ranching and farming, but a lot of taxes are not collected because of folks taking the ag exemption whose income is nearly entirely unrelated to ranching.  And the income supposedly produced that created the exemption is far less than the tax avoided.

Of course there is also shit tons of money in the state coffers, but it must be spent without any accountability on "the border" instead.  But hell the bottom line the only children the majority of the Republican party cares about from a legislative capacity is unborn children.  What needs to happen is parents and ESPECIALLY younger voters need to vote on education.  When that changes Texas will move out of the basement of school funding.

Isn't the basic requirement for the ag exemption to have like one goat?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, horn4life said:

All Robin hood is for is to allow millionaires toy ranches and farms with Ag exemptions, and shift the bill to city folks.

If the toy ranches and farms had to pay property taxes then the need to shift money into these "poorer" districts would be unnecessary.  But hey when you can spend $20,000 on some pregnant cows, sell the cows for close to what you paid and avoid property tax on a $5,000,000 property, that's a bargain.  Now this is in no way denigrating to actual ranchers and farmers who make their living ranching and farming, but a lot of taxes are not collected because of folks taking the ag exemption whose income is nearly entirely unrelated to ranching.  And the income supposedly produced that created the exemption is far less than the tax avoided.

Of course there is also shit tons of money in the state coffers, but it must be spent without any accountability on "the border" instead.  But hell the bottom line the only children the majority of the Republican party cares about from a legislative capacity is unborn children.  What needs to happen is parents and ESPECIALLY younger voters need to vote on education.  When that changes Texas will move out of the basement of school funding.

Revenue isn't the problem.  Not even close.

[TexPx 2335]

DMN:
Keller ISD invites a messianic clergyperson accused of sexual assault to say a prayer
Watchdog Dave Lieber: Trustees who invited him are aligned with a $1 million PAC funding Christian candidates

Here’s a big mistake that reminds The Watchdog of the old Texas expression that some people don’t have the good sense to spit downwind.

The deeply religious, proudly Christian, book-banning newly elected members of the Keller ISD school board invited an area religious leader to deliver the opening prayer at the December board meeting.

The man they brought in to lead the prayer is Mark Aaron Griffin, 48, who is under indictment on four counts of sexual assault involving a woman who is a member of his house of worship.

The elected officials who say they want to restore God in the schools put Griffin within 10 feet of elementary school children who were set to perform a dance after the opening prayer. (Note: Griffin’s bond conditions do not prohibit him from being around children.)

The other problem here is that Griffin was introduced as a rabbi and part of his prayer was in Hebrew. But Griffin is a self-proclaimed Messianic Jew, which is a Christian sect, separate from Judaism, that believes Jesus is the great messiah. Whether that makes him a true rabbi is a topic open for debate.

Student figures it out

Credit goes to Allison Perilman, a 17-year-old Keller High senior who figured this out before any adults did.

Perilman was sitting in the audience preparing to speak to the board as founder and president of her school’s anti-racism coalition. After Griffin finished praying, she looked him up on her phone, and was surprised when news of his 2020 indictment popped up.

She showed it to Laney Hawes, parent of four children in the district, who has filed open records requests to learn how the district picks religious leaders to speak. After the new board members were elected in May, they added prayer to public meetings. So far, all pastors brought in have been evangelical Christians.

So when a “rabbi” was announced, Hawes considered it a victory for diversity. That feeling didn’t last when they realized that the Messianic Jew believed in Jesus, and he is under criminal indictment.

As the meeting ended, the student and parent walked up to board members and showed them the story about Griffin on their phones. Both say trustees acted surprised by the news of criminal charges.

Hawes said board member Chris Roof told her that Griffin hadn’t been convicted. She said Roof also told her that the opening prayer is not for the community. It’s for the board, and since all seven members believe in Jesus, this isn’t a problem.

I sent her comments to Roof who wrote back, “That is not accurate.” But when I asked for clarification of what he did say, he didn’t answer.

Invited to be his concubine

The Saginaw police’s probable cause affidavit states that police believe “Griffin used his influence as a clergyman to coerce [the woman] to have “nonconsensual and consensual sex” with him.

Griffin asked the woman to be his concubine, or second wife, the police document states. Griffin said it was OK because Abraham and Jacob had such an arrangement.

After obtaining a search warrant, police took a saliva sample from Griffin. They also cut out portions of the carpet to check for DNA and found semen traces that were a match in both the rabbi’s office and in the “welcome room,” court records show.

Griffin, who leads Sar Shalom in Saginaw, did not return phone messages. His lawyer, Colin McLaughlin, told me, “We can’t talk about the facts of the case right now, but we have given the state a lot of information and evidence. We strongly believe in his innocence, and we’re hoping that the district attorney’s office sees this for what it is.”

School district statement

This story was first reported by the Jewish Telegraphic Agency. The school district and board president Charles Randklev released a statement, saying that “after the Dec. 12 board meeting, we were made aware of criminal allegations against the individual that a local congregation sent to offer a prayer.

“That same individual previously served as a local Tarrant County’s sheriff’s chaplain, and the prayer was offered without incident.” (Griffin lost the volunteer chaplain job in the county jail after his indictment.)

It concludes, “While we respect the judicial process and an individual’s presumption of innocence, we will also continue our efforts to ensure that the values of the Keller ISD community are well represented by scheduled speakers at board meetings.”

Patriot Mobile spent $1 million this year

The Keller board is on the front lines in what some are calling an attempted Christian takeover of public schools. Most of the public attention in KISD has been devoted to removal of books from school libraries, and lately, whether school staff can carry guns.

A new group called Patriot Mobile Action has succeeded in electing candidates in Keller, Mansfield, Grapevine-Colleyville and Carroll districts. More districts are expected to be targeted in the May election.

Candidates the group supports receive huge amounts of campaign donations for local races. Campaign finance reports show the committee spent $1.1 million from January through October. On its website, the group brags that all 11 of its candidates were elected.

Under the current system, newly elected school board members in Texas are trained on the fly and thrown into the whirlwind of nasty Texas education politics. They receive no salary.

With strong financial support, it’s not that hard for religion-comes-first candidates to win in low voter turnout school elections that offer little objective information about the candidates’ true agenda.

If you’re going to make it all about religion, ban books and decide to arm teachers in schools, (as the Keller board voted 4-3 to approve at the December meeting), you can’t afford to make embarrassing and harmful mistakes.

You can’t be dumb enough to spit upwind.

Research assistants Jennifer Brancato and Misha Vaid contributed to this report.

Become a citizen of Watchdog Nation.

Join Dave Lieber and learn to be a super-consumer.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

1 hour ago, TexPx said:

DMN:
Keller ISD invites a messianic clergyperson accused of sexual assault to say a prayer
Watchdog Dave Lieber: Trustees who invited him are aligned with a $1 million PAC funding Christian candidates
--------------
As the meeting ended, the student and parent walked up to board members and showed them the story about Griffin on their phones. Both say trustees acted surprised by the news of criminal charges.
--------------
Hawes said board member Chris Roof told her that Griffin hadn’t been convicted. She said Roof also told her that the opening prayer is not for the community. It’s for the board, and since all seven members believe in Jesus, this isn’t a problem.

I sent her comments to Roof who wrote back, “That is not accurate.” But when I asked for clarification of what he did say, he didn’t answer.
 

Board member Roof better clarify because that is a big nope nope nope when one is acting in an official capacity in a public meeting IMO. While it seems sectarian prayer prior to various legislative sessions is a common tradition and has been before SCOTUS, anyone with a lick of sense would know there are some easy ways to accommodate the various school community members that one represents as an elected official. But, school board members are often missing that sense so it's not like this is a revelation (pardon the pun).

Spoiler

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. (Matthew 6:3-9) KJV

Edit: I prefer the moment of silence for a variety of reasons, accommodation of others being one of them, but mostly because silence and silent wisdom (thought which comes prior to speaking) is another scarce trait in civil society these days.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Mrs Whiggins

[Nice Guy Eddie 13729]

A school board doesn’t see a problem with letting a indicted person saying that a prayer before a board meeting? Just because he hasn’t been convicted (yet) of the sexual assault?

[Captainant 28529]

2 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

A school board doesn’t see a problem with letting a indicted person saying that a prayer before a board meeting? Just because he hasn’t been convicted (yet) of the sexual assault?

Those crazy fundagelicals will just break out the "imperfect vessel" schtick and plow on ahead. It's what they did after getting grabbed by the pussy by trump

[WhatTheBuck 28928]

1 hour ago, TexPx said:

Become a citizen

Post a link.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13729]

Double post

Edited December 31, 2022 by Nice Guy Eddie

[TexPx 2335]

Post a link.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2022/12/29/keller-isd-invites-a-messianic-rabbi-indicted-for-sex-assault-to-say-a-prayer/

[Dutchrudder 11243]

2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

A school board doesn’t see a problem with letting a indicted person saying that a prayer before a board meeting? Just because he hasn’t been convicted (yet) of the sexual assault?

It's not like he's a Democrat or something, that rule doesn't apply.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

48 minutes ago, Dutchrudder said:

It's not like he's a Democrat or something, that rule doesn't apply.

Also, it was the victim's fault because she tempted him in the house of the Lord or some such reasoning.

[Dutchrudder 11243]

1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Also, it was the victim's fault because she tempted him in the house of the Lord or some such reasoning.

I think the most surprising part of that story is that the victim wasn't an underage boy. 

[WhatTheBuck 28928]

19 hours ago, TexPx said:

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2022/12/29/keller-isd-invites-a-messianic-rabbi-indicted-for-sex-assault-to-say-a-prayer/

Thank you.

Here’s a link to the referenced article at Jewish Telegraphic Agency:

https://www.jta.org/2022/12/13/united-states/texas-school-board-that-banned-anne-frank-book-invited-messianic-rabbi-charged-with-sexual-assault-to-open-meeting-with-prayer

And some of you were probably more aware of Patriot Action Mobile than I was because you’re closer to it. I’ve probably heard about them but never looked up anything about them. Here’s one article:

How a far-right, Christian cellphone company ‘took over’ four Texas school boards

[fattyflattie 4640]

On 12/23/2022 at 12:23 PM, Biff Tannen said:

Isn't the basic requirement for the ag exemption to have like one goat?

No. It’s partially structured off the carrying ability of the land in your area. IE: x amount of particular animals per xx acres.  I believe we had someone stop by once in over 25 years to take a half assed headcount.  

[Texas Jeff 1999]

On 1/1/2023 at 8:11 AM, WhatTheBuck said:

And some of you were probably more aware of Patriot Action Mobile than I was because you’re closer to it. I’ve probably heard about them but never looked up anything about them. Here’s one article:

How a far-right, Christian cellphone company ‘took over’ four Texas school boards

Here are factors that I believe are causing this:

Most of the the targeted school districts have "places", not "districts".  So all candidates are running at-large.  This allows PACs to create slates of candidates with similar views, since a single voter can vote for everyone on the slate.  This can make it impossible for a minority viewpoint to have even one seat on the school board.  I like Austin ISD's approach, where they have seven district trustees plus two at-large to look at the district as a whole.

Most elections are in May, a time of historically bad turnout.  In the May 2022 Grapevine-Colleyville ISD election, about 11,700 people elected 2 board members with almost identical results.  County wide turnout was about 8.6%.  The margin of victory was 300-600 votes.

You only need a majority on the school board to do what you want.  In GCISD's, the PAC has four out of seven members.  The four in power are ignoring the other three when drafting policy and suspending normal procedure during votes to limit discussion.  In one case, discussion was limited to one minute per trustee before a vote, which is the same amount of time the public gets to speak on an issue.

These factors consolidate power into the hands of the majority that vote, and those elected leverage that power to disregard the other elected trustees.  The solution, of course, is to show up and vote, then change the system.

[tchookem 3968]

Offered without comment...

[HamsterHookah 112]

14 hours ago, tchookem said:

Offered without comment...
 

Read this today: Public Schools lost more than 1 Million students during pandemic.

School districts across the country are shuttering buildings in response to public schools losing more than a million students over the past few years. Data from the U.S. Education Department shows a drop of around 3% in public school enrollment from fall 2019-2020. At the same time, charter school enrollment was up 7%, according to the National Alliance for Public Charter Schools. Among the factors prompting the changes since COVID are an increase in home schooling, more families utilizing private and charter education, and an overall decline in birth rates.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/public-schools-lost-more-than-one-million-students-during-pandemic-11672881798

--

We'd already chosen to do private school pre-pandemic, but the swelling of private schools we are in and around us and the year(s) long waitlists is very noticeable and causing it's own strain. In a lot of ways the private schools are regressing to some of the negatives of public schools (bigger classrooms, suboptimal teacher:student ratio, etc.)

[Dick Tremayne 103]

15 hours ago, tchookem said:

Offered without comment...
 

Shit like this only strengthens my belief that public school should be compulsory and private, charter, home school, etc. should be outlawed.

[CooterBrown 18288]

Vouchers will be the main push this legislative session. I can't see the small town republicans holding it off any longer.  What's left of Texas public schools will be done then.  I imagine to placate the small towns reps, they'll take even more money from the urban districts under Robin Hood with the justification that city residents can just send their kids to private school. 

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/education/2023/01/06/texas-legislative-session-2023-focus-education-voucher-bills/69779344007/

 

[Aqua Buddha 14805]

 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20913]

 

Excellent article here:  https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/january-6-anniversary-civics-education-in-america-20220102.html


"Yet a brief exchange between a lawyer for budget-crunching GOP lawmakers in the Keystone State and a superintendent in a remote rural district in the deer-hunter country of north-central Pennsylvania did exactly that, by voicing an entire nation’s anxieties about how America educates its young people and — much more important — to what end.

I’ll even go way out on a limb here to argue you can draw a straight line between the country’s collective decision — hardened somewhere in the late 20th century — to stop seeing education as a public good aimed at creating engaged and informed citizens but instead a pipeline for the worker drones of capitalism, and the 21st century’s civic meltdown that reached its low point nearly one year ago, in the Jan. 6 insurrection.

This lightbulb moment occurred in the middle of weeks of arduous testimony over unequal K-12 funding during the Harrisburg trial. On the witness stand was Matthew Splain, superintendent of the underfunded Otto-Eldred School District in sparsely populated McKean County and board president of the Pennsylvania Association of Rural and Small Schools. His inquisitor was John Krill, a lawyer representing the state’s top Republican lawmaker, defending a political regime that’s made Pennsylvania 45th in the nation in state support for its public schools.

 

Splain, who advocates for Harrisburg to do more for schools in rural areas experiencing economic hardship, testified about his belief that lack of resources is linked to lower student test scores in subjects such as biology and math in recent years. Krill then basically said the quiet part of Republican education policy out loud in the packed courtroom.

“What use would a carpenter have for biology?” asked Krill, questioning the need for learning for learning’s sake in a locale where many of the available jobs don’t require a college degree. In stating so plainly the modern conservative philosophy that public schools exist solely to develop a workforce — one in which not everyone need be a rocket scientist or a philosopher — the Harvard Law-educated Krill didn’t stop there.

“What use would someone on the McDonald’s career track have for Algebra 1?” Krill asked. The big, implicit but unanswered question of who decides who’s on “the McDonald’s track,” let alone why we would even have one, is largely what prompted a Twitter backlash after Krill’s comments were covered in The Inquirer. It’s hardly surprising that two of America’s leading Black public intellectuals — New York Times columnist Jamelle Bouie and Nikole Hannah-Jones of the Pulitzer-winning 1619 Project — weighed in. After all, horribly misguided decisions about school resources, staffing, or just the prevailing mind-set that some poor kids won’t ever be college material have loomed over many urban public schools for decades.

But what about rural McKean County, Pa.? True, that carpenter hammering drywall wouldn’t have to call on a knowledge of basic genetics, presumably — but education isn’t only about facts, but also about developing respect for the wider processes of knowledge, and how we find it. When I poked around, I wasn’t shocked to learn that McKean County — where a school superintendent concedes that math and science education is struggling — also has one of the lowest COVID-19 vaccination rates in Pennsylvania, just 38.1%, compared with 52.7% statewide."

 

 

[tchookem 3968]

Biased source, biased writing, but that doesn't make the facts that are mentioned untrue.

https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-state-board-education-2023/?fbclid=IwAR3aKHG0j4uMgQZwOX4MT2D3yYHJyF4xioypUYwM8OMvytipqH9CsKCkS7M

[ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2692]

4 hours ago, tchookem said:

Biased source, biased writing, but that doesn't make the facts that are mentioned untrue.

https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-state-board-education-2023/?fbclid=IwAR3aKHG0j4uMgQZwOX4MT2D3yYHJyF4xioypUYwM8OMvytipqH9CsKCkS7M
 

Disgusting. So any idiot loser nut can get on SBOE, even if they just got kicked off a school board. Great.

[atomheartbevo 90641]

4 hours ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Disgusting. So any idiot loser nut can get on SBOE, even if they just got kicked off a school board. Great.

All an idiot has to do is get other idiots to vote for him or her.  Not very hard.  Idiocracy is a future documentary.

[Macanudo 13318]

An acquaintance is running for school board in Humble ISD.   His reasons for running:

1.  The decrease in STARR test results since the new Superintendent came in 2017.   She has been disliked by pretty much everyone since she got here.  She's a terrible administrator and within 1-2 years had an affair with a staff member that was hushed up but ended in her getting a divorce.  

2.  The "obscene/pornographic" material in school libraries.   He cited Tracy Shannon as his source for all of his material here.  I didn't realize that dirtbag lives in Kingwood.   If you don't know who she is Google her.  Now, the candidate did show three examples and made a case for why they shouldn't be in schools.    One in particular was a graphic novel available in the high school libraries that has explicit chick on chick action.   I don't like censorship but that has no business being in a school.

3.  School Security.  He is an advocate of arming staff and teachers under either of the current State of Texas allowed rules.   I am personally opposed to school employees carrying or having access to guns on campus.   

It was an interesting night.  There were 10 couples plus the hoat, his wife and campaign manager.  Every one of the wives/girlfriends including the candidates wives are school teachers.   It wax intended as a "meet and greet" and a chance to ask questions.   I knew going in that would be one of the few liberals there.   3 of the husband's are current or former HPD.  It was an interesting night.

But my main take away is that the GOP is coming after school boards here in the Houston area.  Its been happening in other places but they are at work here.  The candidate's campaign manager is the local GOPs precinct chair.  At one point the candidate mentioned that we needed things to go "back to the way they were when we were kids" and "we took God out of the classroom."  

That was during the book section so I asked if he would be ok with removing the Bible because of the depictions of rape, murder and incest.   That's when I figured out who the other liberals in the room were.  There were two others besides myself and my wife.   

Ugh.

[WhatTheBuck 28928]

3 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

One in particular was a graphic novel available in the high school libraries that has explicit chick on chick action.   I don't like censorship but that has no business being in a school.

What kind of action and how explicit? Are we talking pinching and/or sucking of nipples? Cunnilingus? Scissoring? Dildo play? What was it?

[Macanudo 13318]

Cunninglingus.  The book is Fun Home.

 

[Neonmoon 38130]

41 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

One in particular was a graphic novel available in the high school libraries that has explicit chick on chick action.   I don't like censorship but that has no business being in a school.

Oh my god, teenagers might see sex? 
 

This world is so stupid 

[Macanudo 13318]

Part of me feels that way too.   The internet has changed everything.   But a part of me also wonders about books in middle schools that discuss blowjobs.   That was another one talked about.   

I'm no prude.    I know my daughters were hearing about this stuff younger than I was.   But do we need to make it easier?

 

[pyrohornIII 4846]

Yes, yes we should.  We should be asking them if they have questions and answering them honestly.    We teach our kids how to handle guns, how to cook, how to make money, how to do just about everything but we fail miserably at teaching them about sex, relationships and parenting.  And generation after generation gets worse at it while the world now has so many other ways to fill in the voids, like the internet.  

[WhatTheBuck 28928]

1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

Cunninglingus.  The book is Fun Home.

Appropriately named. Plus Breakfast of Champions was already taken  

Yeah, I don’t think images of oral sex should be in the school library regardless of who’s performing it on whom. But then I’m not really sure why graphic novels of any kind should be in the school library. In my day we called those comic books and I sort of get the impression that it’s the comic book fans who defend them as though they’re serious literature. I’d have to see an example of one with some explanation for why it’s a literary work suitable for inclusion in the educational curriculum. 

[WhatTheBuck 28928]

3 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

Yes, yes we should.  We should be asking them if they have questions and answering them honestly.    We teach our kids how to handle guns, how to cook, how to make money, how to do just about everything but we fail miserably at teaching them about sex, relationships and parenting.  And generation after generation gets worse at it while the world now has so many other ways to fill in the voids, like the internet.  

I believe in teaching sex ed. I don’t think the Kama Sutra needs to be on the syllabus. 

[HornOnTheBayou 9062]

2 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Appropriately named. Plus Breakfast of Champions was already taken  

Yeah, I don’t think images of oral sex should be in the school library regardless of who’s performing it on whom. But then I’m not really sure why graphic novels of any kind should be in the school library. In my day we called those comic books and I sort of get the impression that it’s the comic book fans who defend them as though they’re serious literature. I’d have to see an example of one with some explanation for why it’s a literary work suitable for inclusion in the educational curriculum. 

Public school teacher here. Graphic novels are fantastic for students who are labeled as ELL (they can see the pictures and match it up to the words to better grasp vocabulary) and for students who generally don't like reading ("Oh look, a lot of pictures and just some words. I'll read that!"). Plus, graphic novels still have everything you would want in a picture-free novel (character development, scene setting, complex plots, etc).

2 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I believe in teaching sex ed. I don’t think the Kama Sutra needs to be on the syllabus. 

I teach an upper-level high school social studies course and actually do mention the Kama Sutra in class. The fact that those writings focus on male and female sexual enjoyment show that there was probably less patriarchy in ancient South Asia as compared to other cultures. There is value to those texts outside of talking about specific sex positions.

[Neonmoon 38130]

 

4 hours ago, Macanudo said:

Part of me feels that way too.   The internet has changed everything.   But a part of me also wonders about books in middle schools that discuss blowjobs.   That was another one talked about.   

I'm no prude.    I know my daughters were hearing about this stuff younger than I was.   But do we need to make it easier?

 

You are literally the definition of prude. 

“a person who is easily shocked by matters relating to sex or nudity.”

You are so shocked that a book depicting “explicit chick on chick action” is available to teenagers, you want to prohibit access to it. 

Look, you’re a parent, and you should voice your opinion, especially about your values just like every other parent, but in no way are you the hip liberal at this dinner party. 

[Macanudo 13318]

21 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

 

You are literally the definition of prude. 

“a person who is easily shocked by matters relating to sex or nudity.”

You are so shocked that a book depicting “explicit chick on chick action” is available to teenagers, you want to prohibit access to it. 

Look, you’re a parent, and you should voice your opinion, especially about your values just like every other parent, but in no way are you the hip liberal at this dinner party. 

 

[Macanudo 13318]

Ok.  You tell me.... is this appropriate for a high school library?

[WhatTheBuck 28928]

7 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Ok.  You tell me.... is this appropriate for a high school library?

What if the student is trying to learn English?

[safe sex 12000]

14 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Ok.  You tell me.... is this appropriate for a high school library?

Yes! Because teenagers are experiencing sex and the emotions around sex, and literature (of which graphic novels are a part) is one of the best ways for teens to explore and examine those feelings. Especially queer kids.

[Neonmoon 38130]

1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

Ok.  You tell me.... is this appropriate for a high school library?

Yes.

1 hour ago, safe sex said:

Yes! Because teenagers are experiencing sex and the emotions around sex, and literature (of which graphic novels are a part) is one of the best ways for teens to explore and examine those feelings. Especially queer kids.

She says it better than I could. 

 

[Macanudo 13318]

She makes a solid point.  And one I'm can definitely agree with.   Plus like Buck said, for those trying to learn the alphabet.

[tx 3 putt 78675]

1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

Ok.  You tell me.... is this appropriate for a high school library?

there has to be a long wait list for that book 

[safe sex 12000]

If you restrict access to nuanced, realistic depictions of sex, they will just seek out the easily accessible porn online, of which almost none is nuanced and realistic.

Which would you rather?

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by safe sex

[Biff Tannen 46163]

5 hours ago, pyrohornIII said:

Yes, yes we should.  We should be asking them if they have questions and answering them honestly.    We teach our kids how to handle guns, how to cook, how to make money, how to do just about everything but we fail miserably at teaching them about sex, relationships and parenting.  And generation after generation gets worse at it while the world now has so many other ways to fill in the voids, like the internet.  

This is how America works.  Many other countries like us (Europe) are WAY more open about sex and I happen to think it is the right way to do things.  They do have a thousand years on us.

[WhatTheBuck 28928]

21 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

This is how America works.  Many other countries like us (Europe) are WAY more open about sex and I happen to think it is the right way to do things.  They do have a thousand years on us.

For example:

 

[TexPx 2335]

Yes! Because teenagers are experiencing sex and the emotions around sex, and literature (of which graphic novels are a part) is one of the best ways for teens to explore and examine those feelings. Especially queer kids.

I’m trying to figure out how viewing that would actually harm a high school kid.