Controversial Calls, Shitty Umps, Weird Plays, etc...

[wood 11306]

I don't mean for this thread to apply just to any one level of baseball, but the Hibbeler catch/no catch vs Indiana and a couple of crazy calls in my kid's all-star play over the weekend are what prompted it. Some people are tired of hearing about the Hibbeler play over in that thread, so maybe we can bring that talk over here.

So I'll kick it all off with this shit ... today in my kid's Centex Series round robin play, we had runners on 1st & second, 1 out. Our kid hit a hard grounder toward third, where the 3rd baseman was playing practically on top of the bag. 3rd baseman steps 2 or 3 steps toward home & into foul territory, and catches the ball about 2 feet foul and about 3 or 4 feet toward home from the bag. It's not even close to fair territory. Kid plays it out, steps on 3rd, throws to 1st. Umps call outs at 3rd and 1st, killing our inning. I'm coaching 1st, and our HC is coaching 3rd. He immediately tells the home plate ump that's a foul ball & is dead as soon as 3B touches it. Ump says the ball first bounced fair and never hit the ground in foul territory before 3B caught it in the air in foul territory, so it's fair. This is, of course, complete nonsense, and our HC is very good with the rules and quoted it to the ump almost exactly the same way I've been finding it online. Nope. No go.

Shit like this happens damn near every game, and our HC can show the guys the rule half the time, but it has zero effect. These worthless fucks are getting paid to Ump, but can't be bothered to actually learn a got-damn rule or two ... and then they actually, with a straight face, tell us we're wrong when we can actually show them the fucking rule. I mean I get it. Umpiring is hard AF, and there are lots of little nitpicky rules, but this isn't really one of em. Learn the fucking rule book or go do something else.

Yesterday we noticed the opposing pitcher, after each pitch, was going about half way to home plate to take the throw from the catcher, then cluelessly lollygagging his way back to the mound. So we got a kid on third and after a couple pitches like this we sent him as soon as the catcher made the throw back after a pitch. He stole home and scored easily. Umps called our kid out, saying we had illegally run a "squeeze play".  Of course, laying down a bunt is kinda hard when the pitcher is walking back to the mound, but WTF, let's call it a squeeze play. Why the fuck not, right? 

[Victor Lazlo 1780]

No offense, Wood, but if you are going long cat in order to justify your outrage over a bad call from a Joe Schmo trying to make rent money by umpiring your kid’s ballgame, well, maybe you should try to take a step back and think about things. Just trying to give a little perspective  

Ive been there- coached my daughter’s softball for 6 years. 

I learned that all of the umps, with the exception of maybe 2, in 6 years time, are just trying to do the very best job that they can. 

They aren’t trying to screw you, and  they damned well aren’t getting paid enough to be berated mercifully over perceived missed calls. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by Victor Lazlo

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

^ it’s true but sometimes fun to talk about these things anyway. 

 

I had an ump call a foul pop up fair because the fielder dropped it.  He says it would have been foul but if you try to catch it then you’ve chosen to play it, making it fair. 

[clapclapclap 9000]

5 hours ago, wood said:

today in my kid's Centex Series round robin play 

Why is it 'Centex' instead of 'CenTex'?   Please bring this to their attention.

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

 I once tuned in to watch a spare ass Armando Galarraga complete a perfect game, just to have Jim Joyce blow a call that a major league umpire gets right 999 times out of 1000. 

[Gut Wagon 8097]

17 minutes ago, clapclapclap said:

Why is it 'Centex' instead of 'CenTex'?   Please bring this to their attention.

syntax

[wood 11306]

7 hours ago, Victor Lazlo said:

No offense, Wood, but if you are going long cat in order to justify your outrage over a bad call from a Joe Schmo trying to make rent money by umpiring your kid’s ballgame, well, maybe you should try to take a step back and think about things. Just trying to give a little perspective  

Ive been there- coached my daughter’s softball for 6 years. 

I learned that all of the umps, with the exception of maybe 2, in 6 years time, are just trying to do the very best job that they can. 

They aren’t trying to screw you, and  they damned well aren’t getting paid enough to be berated mercifully over perceived missed calls. 

This thread isn't just for bad calls or weird calls in kid's games, but at any level. And I'm not expecting a deep knowledge of the rules for the kid's umps, but c'mon man. The two examples I gave above don't require anything more than a rudimentary knowledge of baseball. And they're just from the last 2 games. There are plenty more, just from our games this season. Even most of  the kids know these rules. I mean ... a double play on an obvious foul grounder, and a "squeeze play" on a steal of home with the pitcher nowhere near the mound with his head up his ass? I don't think I'm asking for that much here.

I was just always taught that if you're going to take money to do any job, you try to do it right. There are good umps out there getting paid the same as these guys, but the guys making shitty calls like these aren't putting in an honest effort at all. They're just showing up and wearing the uniform. And it's not about getting screwed. We won one of the games, and in the other, the call sure didn't help us since we were rallying with a good hitter up and more after him, but it likely wasn't the deciding factor. It's about doing a good job when you're being paid for it, and not just for us, but for all the teams. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by wood

[wood 11306]

Re: Hibbeler's play last night, I think it's a tough one for Blue even if he made the catch. They were likely pretty obscured from actually being able to see him make the catch, and he never held it up or anything. When he ball comes flying out like that, I can understand how it's pretty tough for them to call that a game-ending, regional-ending out. Pierce seemed to agree after he calmed down. I had a feeling it wasn't over as soon as I saw the ball fly out. Just glad it worked out for us.

2 hours ago, clapclapclap said:

Why is it 'Centex' instead of 'CenTex'?   Please bring this to their attention.

Ha! Hell, it might be CenTex. I dunno.

[wood 11306]

2 hours ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

^ it’s true but sometimes fun to talk about these things anyway.

I had an ump call a foul pop up fair because the fielder dropped it.  He says it would have been foul but if you try to catch it then you’ve chosen to play it, making it fair. 

Yeah, this is the kinda shit I'm talking about. Baseball umps who don't even have the first clue what they're doing. Hey, I don't take money to go fuck up their quiddich matches. 

[elfenix 34364]

 I once tuned in to watch a spare ass Armando Galarraga complete a perfect game, just to have Jim Joyce blow a call that a major league umpire gets right 999 times out of 1000. 

I think this is the only blown call I've had pop into my head more than a day after it happened.

[Mudcat35 196]

Regarding the original post - I coached select baseball for years.  Every year, I told my players and parents two things about the umpires:

 

1)  It takes a REALLY good umpire to intentionally affect the outcome of a baseball game.  These guys aren't that good.

2)  If these umpires were any good, they wouldn't be out here.

[wood 11306]

4 minutes ago, elfenix said:

2 hours ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

 I once tuned in to watch a spare ass Armando Galarraga complete a perfect game, just to have Jim Joyce blow a call that a major league umpire gets right 999 times out of 1000. 

I think this is the only blown call I've had pop into my head more than a day after it happened.

I had to google that one up. Just wow. That wasn't even close. Even Joyce probably still has nightmares about that choke job. 

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

1 minute ago, Mudcat35 said:

Regarding the original post - I coached select baseball for years.  Every year, I told my players and parents two things about the umpires:

 

1)  It takes a REALLY good umpire to intentionally affect the outcome of a baseball game.  

  I umped a tourney for the Longhorn Baseball Club one time.  I had played the year before but stopped and they were desperate for an ump and called me up to see if I would.  Sure. No problem. 

I called a fair game but the last batter was a buddy of mine and he got caught on his heels on the would-be third strike right down the gut.  Pitcher started celebrating and everything. I called it a ball.  Next pitch was a single up the middle.  Extended the game but the result was the same. 

 

I also learned calling balls and strikes is really hard, especially on low pitches.  I never had any idea if a ball was mid shin or knee high. 

[wood 11306]

8 minutes ago, Mudcat35 said:

Regarding the original post - I coached select baseball for years.  Every year, I told my players and parents two things about the umpires:

 

1)  It takes a REALLY good umpire to intentionally affect the outcome of a baseball game.  These guys aren't that good.

2)  If these umpires were any good, they wouldn't be out here.

I agree with that. I don't expect them to be MLB umps. I'm just looking for a little honest effort here. If paid umps don't know the basics of the rules, like the difference between a squeeze and a stolen base, or the difference between a fair or foul ball, it's not an honest effort.

Edited June 4, 2018 by wood

[bschoolprof 6273]

8 hours ago, wood said:

I don't mean for this thread to apply just to any one level of baseball, but the Hibbeler catch/no catch vs Indiana and a couple of crazy calls in my kid's all-star play over the weekend are what prompted it. Some people are tired of hearing about the Hibbeler play over in that thread, so maybe we can bring that talk over here.

So I'll kick it all off with this shit ... today in my kid's Centex Series round robin play, we had runners on 1st & second, 1 out. Our kid hit a hard grounder toward third, where the 3rd baseman was playing practically on top of the bag. 3rd baseman steps 2 or 3 steps toward home & into foul territory, and catches the ball about 2 feet foul and about 3 or 4 feet toward home from the bag. It's not even close to fair territory. Kid plays it out, steps on 3rd, throws to 1st. Umps call outs at 3rd and 1st, killing our inning. I'm coaching 1st, and our HC is coaching 3rd. He immediately tells the home plate ump that's a foul ball & is dead as soon as 3B touches it. Ump says the ball first bounced fair and never hit the ground in foul territory before 3B caught it in the air in foul territory, so it's fair. This is, of course, complete nonsense, and our HC is very good with the rules and quoted it to the ump almost exactly the same way I've been finding it online. Nope. No go.

Shit like this happens damn near every game, and our HC can show the guys the rule half the time, but it has zero effect. These worthless fucks are getting paid to Ump, but can't be bothered to actually learn a got-damn rule or two ... and then they actually, with a straight face, tell us we're wrong when we can actually show them the fucking rule. I mean I get it. Umpiring is hard AF, and there are lots of little nitpicky rules, but this isn't really one of em. Learn the fucking rule book or go do something else.

Yesterday we noticed the opposing pitcher, after each pitch, was going about half way to home plate to take the throw from the catcher, then cluelessly lollygagging his way back to the mound. So we got a kid on third and after a couple pitches like this we sent him as soon as the catcher made the throw back after a pitch. He stole home and scored easily. Umps called our kid out, saying we had illegally run a "squeeze play".  Of course, laying down a bunt is kinda hard when the pitcher is walking back to the mound, but WTF, let's call it a squeeze play. Why the fuck not, right? 

ha - one of my kids is playing centex right now as well.  

You are correct about both of these calls being BS.  The first issue is the ump simply not knowing the rules of baseball.  The 2nd is him misunderstanding restrictions on squeezes and stealing home  put in place by the leagues and centex to promote player safety.  This is further compounded by the fact that the centex rules (though better and more explicit than most) never clearly articulate what is or isn't allowed under closed bases (I don't know if your kid plays in a division with closed bases).  

I would go over the 2nd issue - what is and isn't allowed as far as stealing home and closed bases - with the umps and the opposing head coach before the game, because these are going to be issues in every game.  If you want to be super-tough-guy-serious-business coach,  you can get a contact info for the board members or other centex officials that will be at the pool play site and call them to come over to the field if there is one of these disputes.  That happened in one of our games this weekend.  Little league - Serious bidness.  

Edited June 4, 2018 by bschoolprof

[wood 11306]

^Nah. We aren't pursuing it. Moving on. Fun & maybe a little therapeutic to talk about here tho imho.

ETA: & yeah, it's12U - open bases.

Edited June 4, 2018 by wood

[bschoolprof 6273]

The ump's in our spring league this year were particularly terrible.  Much better last fall.  

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

36 minutes ago, wood said:

This thread isn't just for bad calls or weird calls in kid's games, but at any level. And I'm not expecting a deep knowledge of the rules for the kid's umps, but c'mon man. The two examples I gave above don't require anything more than a rudimentary knowledge of baseball. And they're just from the last 2 games. There are plenty more, just from our games this season. Even most of  the kids know these rules. I mean ... a double play on an obvious foul grounder, and a "squeeze play" on a steal of home with the pitcher nowhere near the mound with his head up his ass? I don't think I'm asking for that much here.

I was just always taught that if you're going to take money to do any job, you try to do it right. There are good umps out there getting paid the same as these guys, but the guys making shitty calls like these aren't putting in an honest effort at all. They're just showing up and wearing the uniform. And it's not about getting screwed. We won one of the games, and in the other, the call sure didn't help us since we were rallying with a good hitter up and more after him, but it likely wasn't the deciding factor. It's about doing a good job when you're being paid for it, and not just for us, but for all the teams. 

There's no reason to not expect basic knowledge of the game you're umpiring.

[UTPhil2006 3821]

How old were the umps?

[wood 11306]

7 minutes ago, UTPhil2006 said:

How old were the umps?

Early to mid 20s in these particular instances. Different guys.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

13 minutes ago, wood said:

Early to mid 20s in these particular instances. Different guys.

12 year olds playing the game know the foul ball rule.

[UTPhil2006 3821]

They should know that stuff then.  I umped from 16-22 and could understand how younger guys could get calls wrong, but a lot of the times they also had an open mind if they were wrong and were never combatative.  Mid 20's umps should know their shit.

[miguelito 11333]

Enrico Palazzo was a terrible ump.  One time, he got into a rundown with another umpire!

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, miguelito said:

Enrico Palazzo was a terrible ump.  One time, he got into a rundown with another umpire!

Enrico Palazzo, I thought he was one of the 3 Tenors ??

[wood 11306]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Enrico Palazzo, I thought he was one of the 3 Tenors ??

Yep. Here he is in action...

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by wood

[hayden_horn 11365]

am i doing this thread right?

[TwiceHorn 31646]

Here's a weird rule:

 

Quote

“A batted ball that hits the pitcher's rubber and rebounds untouched to foul territory between first and home or third and home is a foul ball.”

Excerpt From: National Collegiate Athletic Association. “2017-2018 Baseball Rules.” iBooks.

 

[PvilleStang 2923]

Adult softball league, last year, blue calls an "infield fly" with a runner on 1st and 1 out, and still wasn't that routine of a fly ball.  

 

Although, this one takes the cake:

 

[wood 11306]

Kid nailed it. No way he could have even touched that pitch. Hell, it probably woulda hit a righty.

Edited June 4, 2018 by wood

[Beau Vine 54487]

Pvillestang's video brought a flashback, and I probably told this on Shaggy, but fuck it...

I started umpiring baseball in high school.  And I was really good at it because I knew the rule book backwards and forwards, as you might have guessed from all the anal-retentive posts I've made on the MLB thread.  And I was poor, so I was always willing to work any available game, so my supervisor would call me for everything.

But graduation week, I told my supervisor "DO NOT SCHEDULE ME ON THURSDAY NIGHT.  I have a big party to go to that night."

So of course he calls me on Wednesday night and tells me he has a Pee Wee game tomorrow (1 game only at 6pm, so I can still make the party!) that he's desperate to staff.  I tell him to call everyone else in town and if no one can take it, call me back.  And he calls me back 20 minutes later, and I grudgingly take the game to do him a favor.

Pee Wee games always were fucking horrible because most games only last three innings (scheduled for 6 innings) before they bumped into the 2-hour time limit, with the score 23-22 and 5 total hits and 60 walks. 

That night at the home plate meeting before the game, I told both coaches, "If your batter can reach the pitch, I'm going to call it a strike.  They need to swing the bats tonight."  One coach nodded and grinned.  The other started to argue, and I cut him off and said, "You tell your kids to swing at anything close because I am going to call it a strike."

We went into the top of the sixth with the score 5-4 after about an hour and 20 minutes and I was so excited about me having a chance to get to the party on time and having a chance to go ugly early. 

And then the little dude pitching couldn't throw it anywhere near the plate and neither could the next kid and so they walked about 15 in a row and it took about a half hour to play the last inning.  And when the final out was finally recorded, I took off on a full sprint to the parking lot...

...Except that I had a whole line of parents from both teams trying to shake my hand and telling me, "That was the best game we've had all season!  Can you please umpire more of our games?"

[MAROON 445]

this is about as bad as it gets....wait for the second pitch.

[wood 11306]

whoa. And that's in the LLWS?

[CurlyDumps 4486]

9 hours ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

^ it’s true but sometimes fun to talk about these things anyway. 

 

I had an ump call a foul pop up fair because the fielder dropped it.  He says it would have been foul but if you try to catch it then you’ve chosen to play it, making it fair. 

[dcar00 14438]

1 hour ago, wood said:

whoa. And that's in the LLWS?

got to love the catcher framing the pitch against the left handed batters box.  this is what cracks me up about umps at the lower levels.  kid throws any pitch that breaks anywhere near the plate and they can't help themselves but "ring 'em up".

Edit: I realize the pitch the kid threw was not a curve

off topic but...to be honest they should be way more discriminating on calling breaking pitches strikes at younger ages. it really hurts both the batter and the pitcher.  Any pitching coach will tell you that command of the fastball(4 seam) is the most important skill to learn.  if they were walking guys because they can't control the curve they'd be less inclined to do it and work on locating the fastball.

even in early 14U I rarely called a curve.  forced my kids to throw  4 seam, 2 seam, and straight change(low in the zone).

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by dcar00

[wood 11306]

4 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

got to love the catcher framing the pitch against the left handed batters box.  this is what cracks me up about umps at the lower levels.  kid throws any pitch that breaks anywhere near the plate and they can't help themselves but "ring 'em up".

off topic but...to be honest they should be way more discriminating on calling breaking pitches strikes at younger ages. it really hurts both the batter and the pitcher.  Any pitching coach will tell you that command of the fastball(4 seam) is the most important skill to learn.  if they were walking guys because they can't control the curve they'd be less inclined to do it and work on locating the fastball.

even in early 14U I rarely called a curve.  forced my kids to throw  4 seam, 2 seam, and straight change(low in the zone).

Yep. And that's all they need if they throw 'em well.

The best pitch in baseball is a well-located fastball. And speed change combined with good location are probably the pitching skills most underrated by way too many people who have influence over these pitchers' development.

Edited June 4, 2018 by wood

[El Squared 1821]

I get that being an ump is generally a thankless job on the lower tier of the sport.At the upper levels though, it is a semipro or pro endeavor, but incompetence or at least the appearance of ridiculousness is still tolerated.

i don’t really like baseball as much because of that. The subjective strike zone just kills me and I don’t know why a machine can’t do that and let the humans foul up the rest of the calls. People say they want to preserve the “human element” of the sport, but it’s not about human lack of precision but rather the the negative side of human nature which enjoys manipulation of situations I cannot get over, whether it’s actually happening or just appears to happen.

Baseball is not unique in this aspect of course, but it seems to excel at this special type of fockery.

 

 

 

[wood 11306]

Can't say the same for the other levels, but MLB imho has the best officiating of any sports league at any level. They handle their instant replay the best, too, and have used that and statcast to make their umps better and much more consistent, esp behind the plate. The days of wild variances in strike zone from one ump to the next are pretty much gone in MLB.

[VolenteHawk 495]

3 hours ago, dcar00 said:

off topic but...to be honest they should be way more discriminating on calling breaking pitches strikes at younger ages. it really hurts both the batter and the pitcher.  Any pitching coach will tell you that command of the fastball(4 seam) is the most important skill to learn.  if they were walking guys because they can't control the curve they'd be less inclined to do it and work on locating the fastball.

When I was umpiring, I always had a smaller zone for breaking pitches. In hindsight, I think it was subconscious because I knew it was bad for the kid’s arms.

[mulletpelini 5216]

Quote

Noah Syndergaard was ejected from a Dodgers-Mets game way back in late May 2016 after throwing behind Chase Utley in the top of the third inning. It was a 1-0 pitch, and it was 99 miles per hour, and it sailed behind Utley by a good eight inches:

The context is important. Utley’s notorious takeout slide in Game 2 of the 2015 National League Division Series nuked the right fibula of Mets infielder Ruben Tejada. Utley was suspended for the next two games of the series, and ultimately MLB instituted what has come to be called the Chase Utley Rule, essentially banning (but not eliminating) takeout slides. Syndergaard’s pitch in 2016 was assumed to be an effort at retaliation, even all that time later. Possibly it was just a wild fastball? Either way, as you can imagine, Terry Collins was quite pissed.

Maybe you have seen this next video before. I have not, and I find it absolutely fascinating. It shows the same sequence, but this time with clear audio of crew chief Tom Hallion interacting first with Syndergaard, and then a fuming Terry Collins:

Video with audio of discussion between ump players and coaches was pretty damn interesting.