Boo fucking Hoo Brittney Griner

[956 Worldwide 34,715]

I did not realize that Britney Griner was landing in Russia on February 17 and not departing. My sympathy for her case plummeted.  The DT thread on the invasion was in full swing.  We were telling the world the invasion was coming in days and it did. On February 9 the State Department sent an alert:

Quote

Level 4: Do not travel for reasons including harassment against U.S. citizens….arbitrary enforcement of local law…Russian officials have arrested U.S. citizens on spurious charges, denied them fair and transparent treatment….

She landed a week after that alert. Now we’re going to trade her for the world’s worst arms dealer and hand Putin a huge propaganda win? I’m leaving towards telling Griner that she unfortunately FAFO. She wanted to get big money from big Russian bizness and got fucked over, she has all the relevant warnings available. If anything, we should prioritize people who have been in longer, before the warnings.

 

So yeah, save the whining, Griner is getting plenty of special treatment here because of who she is. 

[Carl Spackler 3,483]

11 hours ago, royiv said:

But why? It's not like Bout will be committing crimes in the US if we ship him back to Russia. Why shouldn't we get our people back on our soil? I think it sucks if we aren't also asking for Fogel. We should get all of our people out of their corrupt criminal justice system. 

For at least a couple reasons.  First, he won't have paid the full price for the crimes of which he was convicted.  Second, I think it's reasonable to assume that he will engage in similar bullshittery in the future.  I think it's a bit naive to suggest that because Bout would be outside of the U.S., his likely future conduct (based on what he was convicted of and other arms deals he brokered prior to being arrested) wouldn't have an effect either in this country or on American interests in general.  After all, he was convicted of (among other things) conspiring to kill Americans in Colombia.  There's no reason to think that he wouldn't go right back to brokering the same kinds of arms deals with the same kinds of terrorist organizations in the future if given the opportunity.  The proposed swap would give him that opportunity.   

Just so I'm clear, what upsets me is the fact that Griner's conduct helped create the situation that will potentially allow Bout to be released.  I'm all for trying to get American citizens home -- particularly those who are being detained on trumped up charges like Griner.  But I don't like the fact that her questionable decisions helped create a situation that may allow a scumbag like Bout to skate back to Russia.   

Edited July 28, 2022 by Carl Spackler

[Blotto 23,509]

Quote

Russian government officials requested that a former colonel from the country's domestic spy agency who was convicted of murder in Germany last year be added to the US' proposed swap of a notorious arms dealer for Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan, multiple sources familiar with the discussions told CNN.

The Russians communicated the request to the US earlier this month through an informal backchannel used by the spy agency, known as the FSB, that they wanted Vadim Krasikov released in addition to Viktor Bout, the sources said. Krasikov was convicted in December of murdering a former Chechen fighter, Zelimkhan "Tornike" Khangoshvili, in Berlin's Kleiner Tiergarten in 2019 and sentenced to life in prison.

The request was seen as problematic for several reasons, the sources told CNN, among them that Krasikov remains in German custody. As such, and because the request was not communicated formally but rather through the FSB backchannel, the US government did not view it as a legitimate counter to the US' offer which was first revealed by CNN on Wednesday.

But underscoring how determined the Biden administration has been to get Griner and Whelan back to the US, US officials did make quiet inquiries to the Germans about whether they might be willing to include Krasikov in the trade, a senior German government source told CNN. A US official characterized the outreach as a status check on Krasikov.

Sounds like zee germans told us to fuck off. I'm guessing a WNBA player who "accidently" packed vape pipes when flying into Russia doesn't exactly move the needle in germany. 

[TwiceHorn 31,471]

On 7/28/2022 at 11:06 AM, Carl Spackler said:

For at least a couple reasons.  First, he won't have paid the full price for the crimes of which he was convicted.  Second, I think it's reasonable to assume that he will engage in similar bullshittery in the future.  I think it's a bit naive to suggest that because Bout would be outside of the U.S., his likely future conduct (based on what he was convicted of and other arms deals he brokered prior to being arrested) wouldn't have an effect either in this country or on American interests in general.  After all, he was convicted of (among other things) conspiring to kill Americans in Colombia.  There's no reason to think that he wouldn't go right back to brokering the same kinds of arms deals with the same kinds of terrorist organizations in the future if given the opportunity.  The proposed swap would give him that opportunity.   

Just so I'm clear, what upsets me is the fact that Griner's conduct helped create the situation that will potentially allow Bout to be released.  I'm all for trying to get American citizens home -- particularly those who are being detained on trumped up charges like Griner.  But I don't like the fact that her questionable decisions helped create a situation that may allow a scumbag like Bout to skate back to Russia.   

I certainly get what you're saying, and Bout is a bad dude, or at least enables a lot of bad dudes to do bad shit.

But his conviction/crime does reek a bit of Team America World Police.  FARC is not notable for attacking Americans in Colombia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_attributed_to_FARC  And, as depicted in Narcos, was at times helpful in the drug wars.  And, he wasn't convicted of actually selling to FARC, but DEA agents posing as FARC.

I suspect two things drove Bout's prosecution:  first, he is a scourge on humanity, but without much direct effect in the US; second, a big skin on the wall for prosecutors and law enforcement; and third, currying favor with the government of Colombia, against whom FARC mostly operated.

[Cornpop 230]

13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I certainly get what you're saying, and Bout is a bad dude, or at least enables a lot of bad dudes to do bad shit.

But his conviction/crime does reek a bit of Team America World Police.  FARC is not notable for attacking Americans in Colombia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_attributed_to_FARC  And, as depicted in Narcos, was at times helpful in the drug wars.  And, he wasn't convicted of actually selling to FARC, but DEA agents posing as FARC.

I suspect two things drove Bout's prosecution:  first, he is a scourge on humanity, but without much direct effect in the US; second, a big skin on the wall for prosecutors and law enforcement; and third, currying favor with the government of Colombia, against whom FARC mostly operated.

Hypothetical: what if his release leads to the death of one single American? I don't think it's worth the risk, and we don't even know what her sentence will be yet

[Carl Spackler 3,483]

21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I certainly get what you're saying, and Bout is a bad dude, or at least enables a lot of bad dudes to do bad shit.

But his conviction/crime does reek a bit of Team America World Police.  FARC is not notable for attacking Americans in Colombia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_attributed_to_FARC  And, as depicted in Narcos, was at times helpful in the drug wars.  And, he wasn't convicted of actually selling to FARC, but DEA agents posing as FARC.

I suspect two things drove Bout's prosecution:  first, he is a scourge on humanity, but without much direct effect in the US; second, a big skin on the wall for prosecutors and law enforcement; and third, currying favor with the government of Colombia, against whom FARC mostly operated.

Fair enough, and I have no basis for doubting you concerning the dynamics surrounding the criminal prosecution.  But I'm neither inclined nor in a position to re-litigate his criminal case.  For my purposes, it's enough that he was convicted, sentenced to 25 years, and wouldn't otherwise be eligible for parole for another seven years.    

[TwiceHorn 31,471]

10 minutes ago, Cornpop said:

Hypothetical: what if his release leads to the death of one single American? I don't think it's worth the risk, and we don't even know what her sentence will be yet

He's done a little more than half his 25 year sentence, already (accounting for good time at 85%), so he would have been out at about 65-66 anyway, and he would be as free to do more crimes at that point as he is if released today.

It's not like he's evading a life sentence. Or he could die in prison.  Who knows.

[CooterBrown 18,012]

Hypothetical: what if his release leads to the death of one single American? I don't think it's worth the risk, and we don't even know what her sentence will be yet

You could apply that hypothetical to every prisoner up for parole.

[956 Worldwide 34,715]

Putin wants his killers back and Britney Griner is stuck in the middle. That really sucks to be her, and again, it’s not like there weren’t some damn big “turn back now” signs available to her in February of this year. 

[Nivek 16,930]

On 7/28/2022 at 11:06 AM, Carl Spackler said:

For at least a couple reasons.  First, he won't have paid the full price for the crimes of which he was convicted.  Second, I think it's reasonable to assume that he will engage in similar bullshittery in the future.  I think it's a bit naive to suggest that because Bout would be outside of the U.S., his likely future conduct (based on what he was convicted of and other arms deals he brokered prior to being arrested) wouldn't have an effect either in this country or on American interests in general.  After all, he was convicted of (among other things) conspiring to kill Americans in Colombia.  There's no reason to think that he wouldn't go right back to brokering the same kinds of arms deals with the same kinds of terrorist organizations in the future if given the opportunity.  The proposed swap would give him that opportunity.   

Just so I'm clear, what upsets me is the fact that Griner's conduct helped create the situation that will potentially allow Bout to be released.  I'm all for trying to get American citizens home -- particularly those who are being detained on trumped up charges like Griner.  But I don't like the fact that her questionable decisions helped create a situation that may allow a scumbag like Bout to skate back to Russia.   

We could always send him to a North Korean Doctor to give him a wellness check. 

[RPM 26,321]

54 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Putin wants his killers back and Britney Griner is stuck in the middle. That really sucks to be her, and again, it’s not like there weren’t some damn big “turn back now” signs available to her in February of this year. 

[Nivek 16,930]

On 7/28/2022 at 1:42 AM, 956 Worldwide said:

I did not realize that Britney Griner was landing in Russia on February 17 and not departing. My sympathy for her case plummeted.  The DT thread on the invasion was in full swing.  We were telling the world the invasion was coming in days and it did. On February 9 the State Department sent an alert:

She landed a week after that alert. Now we’re going to trade her for the world’s worst arms dealer and hand Putin a huge propaganda win? I’m leaving towards telling Griner that she unfortunately FAFO. She wanted to get big money from big Russian bizness and got fucked over, she has all the relevant warnings available. If anything, we should prioritize people who have been in longer, before the warnings.

 

So yeah, save the whining, Griner is getting plenty of special treatment here because of who she is. 

This is sort of like the "they bought the ticket, I say let them crash" repackaged.

When we left Afghanistan there was a mad rush at the 11th hour to get out.  Should we have just maintained our schedule, and told everyone to fuck off?  Told Europe that helping was stupid because they are assholes for not getting out a year earlier and they were not worth helping?   Sometimes people make mistakes and are stupid.  That doesn't mean we should just abandon them. 

 

 

[Underdog 28,633]

16 minutes ago, Nivek said:

We could always send him to a North Korean Doctor to give him a wellness check. 

 

[Covri 6,249]

2 hours ago, Nivek said:

This is sort of like the "they bought the ticket, I say let them crash" repackaged.

When we left Afghanistan there was a mad rush at the 11th hour to get out.  Should we have just maintained our schedule, and told everyone to fuck off?  Told Europe that helping was stupid because they are assholes for not getting out a year earlier and they were not worth helping?   Sometimes people make mistakes and are stupid.  That doesn't mean we should just abandon them. 

 

 

No no no, fuck her, she chose not to read the Ukraine thread in the Daily Texan sub forum on SurlyHorns before getting on a plane so she deserves to rot in a Russian prison for the rest of her life. 

[justhookit 4,191]

On 7/31/2022 at 1:41 PM, Covri said:

No no no, fuck her, she chose not to read the Ukraine thread in the Daily Texan sub forum on SurlyHorns before getting on a plane so she deserves to rot in a Russian prison for the rest of her life. 

Yes because that thread was the only source of information at the time.

She’s not going to prison for the rest of her life unless you think she’s dying at an early age. @Hermanator will not agree because I’m a fucking idiot American and have no idea how any of this works. He said the vape cartridges were 100% planted and if you believe otherwise you are an idiot. He was wrong before, she was headed IN to Russia not out, and now she’s admitting she had a doctor’s prescription for it.

They likely watched her and took her down at an opportune time. Doesn’t change the fact that she is guilty AND we need to help her out but not by trading for arms dealers and killers.

Edited August 3, 2022 by justhookit

[justhookit 4,191]

On 7/8/2022 at 11:44 AM, Hermanator said:

I guess we differ because I'm 100 percent convinced she had nothing on her. She had been there working for weeks playing the first part of her team's schedule, a team she had been playing for since 2014 without incident. 

Then exactly a week before Putin invades Ukraine she's smuggling drugs out of Russia? Bullshit. 

Putin knew his timeline for invasion, was looking for high profile westerners to take hostage, and she was tbe highest one there. She had no vape carts on her. 

And as far as why she was there, she's a 31 yr old basketball player who had been successfully traveling to Russia to work for almost a decade. She wasn't paying attention to travel advisories like geeks on here. None of the women players there were. Why would they when they hadn't had issue all the years of doing it? No one would have been in their situation including all of us. 

 

 

On 7/8/2022 at 1:28 PM, hayden_horn said:

haha, okay. 

maybe she did, maybe she didn't. i'm inclined to not believe the russian authorities, and citing her confession in court as any sort of actual evidence is hilarious

On 7/8/2022 at 1:39 PM, Hermanator said:

That's true, but it obviously didn't happen not only for her but for the other 2 dozen or so American women's players who left Russia at the same time she tried to leave. I'm guessing with a decade of comfort going to Russia to play ball with no issue people's guards were very much down all around. Which happens to everyone in similar circumstances. 

 

On 7/8/2022 at 1:54 PM, Hermanator said:

Their client/wife is held hostage by a foreign country renowned for murdering political adversaries and you expect them to publicly call Putin and Russian police liars? Are you really this stupid? 

I mean I know not everyone has experience in handling diplomatic issues but just use some fucking sense for a second. 

For 8 years she'd been going back and forth as a 6 ft 9 black lesbian celebrity basketball player living months at a time in Russia. And in that entire time never had one issue with smuggling or possessing drugs. 

Then, suddenly exactly 1 week before Putin begins his invasion and is preparing to battle strong sanctions she's arrested for drug possession? You think that checks out as on the up and up? 

I'm sorry, sometimes I forget the average American is an obtuse, naive complete dumbass and half the population is below that. 

 

On 7/9/2022 at 12:48 PM, Nivek said:

I think your first statement, “Well she did do wrong.” seems to indicate that you believe she brought in drugs or residuals into Russia.

I tend to be skeptical of anything out of Russia.

These all aged well.

sorry hayden didn’t mean to quote you too.

[956 Worldwide 34,715]

On 7/31/2022 at 9:41 PM, Covri said:

No no no, fuck her, she chose not to read the Ukraine thread in the Daily Texan sub forum on SurlyHorns before getting on a plane so she deserves to rot in a Russian prison for the rest of her life. 

I feel like the United States President going on TV on February 15 telling Putin not to invade Russia; the State Department issuing a do not travel warning; and the Pentagon giving daily briefings on Russian military movements might also have been a clue.

No one is saying she deserves to be there. The question is whether she doesn’t deserve to be there so much that we should cut loose the Lord of War and lean on Allies to send back Chechens who do murders in Europe in exchange for her. By the way, there’s a former teacher who taught American diplomat kids who is also jammed up for (medical) pot.  You don’t hear about him….

[Nivek 16,930]

7 hours ago, justhookit said:

 

 

 

These all aged well.

sorry hayden didn’t mean to quote you too.

You are trying so hard to be right and you have aligned yourself with the Russian government to make a point.  Take a moment to reflect upon that.  Those same Russians have also claimed that they invaded Ukraine to rid the world of Nazi's part 2 and those HIMARS systems are all blown up and those are definitely not logging trucks and amberlamps.   

Maybe you need another example

Senator John McCain:  

Quote

"The doctors were very good and they knew a great deal about the practice of medicine," McCain says on the tape. "I remained in the hospital for some time and regained much of my health and strength. Since I arrived in the camp of detention, I have received humane and lenient treatment. I received this kind treatment and food even though I came here as an aggressor and the people who I injured have much difficulty in their living standards. I wish to express my deep gratitude for my kind treatment and I will never forget this kindness extended to me."

Surely you do not think this was an honest portrayal of the treatment that Senator McCain received as a POW in Vietnam, do you?   I remain skeptical of Russian claims.  I think they have long demonstrated they are a bad actor and have a history of being a "firehose of disinformation" (according to RAND). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ChickenSandwich 9,836]

15 minutes ago, Nivek said:

You are trying so hard to be right and you have aligned yourself with the Russian government to make a point.  Take a moment to reflect upon that.  Those same Russians have also claimed that they invaded Ukraine to rid the world of Nazi's part 2 and those HIMARS systems are all blown up and those are definitely not logging trucks and amberlamps.   

Maybe you need another example

Senator John McCain:  

Surely you do not think this was an honest portrayal of the treatment that Senator McCain received as a POW in Vietnam, do you?   I remain skeptical of Russian claims.  I think they have long demonstrated they are a bad actor and have a history of being a "firehose of disinformation" (according to RAND). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yet she chose, for seven years, to work in this Russia for a million dollars a year and was headed back there, not trying to leave.  The unequal $200k WNBA salary forced her hand I know. 

['stache 21,815]

On 7/31/2022 at 12:15 PM, Nivek said:

This is sort of like the "they bought the ticket, I say let them crash" repackaged.

When we left Afghanistan there was a mad rush at the 11th hour to get out.  Should we have just maintained our schedule, and told everyone to fuck off?  Told Europe that helping was stupid because they are assholes for not getting out a year earlier and they were not worth helping?   Sometimes people make mistakes and are stupid.  That doesn't mean we should just abandon them. 

 

 

Yeah, but were any of them black lesbians who dared to protest police misconduct that disproportionately affects black people? That's why they want her to rot in Russia, the only reason they feel that way. Remember, daring to protest in support of black people means ShE HaTeS AmErIcA. I'm sure it's critical race theory too, because of course it is.

[Nivek 16,930]

3 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Yet she chose, for seven years, to work in this Russia for a million dollars a year and was headed back there, not trying to leave.  The unequal $200k WNBA salary forced her hand I know. 

Irrelevant.   She could have a "I would rather be a Russian than a Democrat" t-shirt and it would also be irrelevant.  She could be wearing whatever the modern equivalent to Cypress Hill or Cheech and Chong T-shirts on and it would still be irrelevant.   I think some of you authoritarian types are conflicted here, because you want this type of stuff to happen.  She represents a liberal in your mind, lesbian and black and not apologetic about being either and thus she isn't really as American to some of you.  But that is projection on my part, and also irrelevant. 

 

[ChickenSandwich 9,836]

6 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Irrelevant.   She could have a "I would rather be a Russian than a Democrat" t-shirt and it would also be irrelevant.  She could be wearing whatever the modern equivalent to Cypress Hill or Cheech and Chong T-shirts on and it would still be irrelevant.   I think some of you authoritarian types are conflicted here, because you want this type of stuff to happen.  She represents a liberal in your mind, lesbian and black and not apologetic about being either and thus she isn't really as American to some of you.  But that is projection on my part, and also irrelevant. 

 

Those are certainly your projections both inner and outer. I’ve said multiple times she doesn’t deserve to be there and neither do the others. 
 

My point was that she wasn’t kidnapped and forced to be there, and trading a terrorist and a murder for her release seems like a poor choice. 
 

Finally, neither you or I know if the substance was planted. The absolute certainty on either side is ridiculous. 
 

* And if we do proceed with the swap, bring them all back. Don’t leave anyone behind. I hope they can find a deal that does that because any deal will be poor anyway. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by ChickenSandwich

[DDD Dad 14,339]

55 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Those are certainly your projections both inner and outer. I’ve said multiple times she doesn’t deserve to be there and neither do the others. 
 

My point was that she wasn’t kidnapped and forced to be there, and trading a terrorist and a murder for her release seems like a poor choice. 
 

Finally, neither you or I know if the substance was planted. The absolute certainty on either side is ridiculous. 
 

* And if we do proceed with the swap, bring them all back. Don’t leave anyone behind. I hope they can find a deal that does that because any deal will be poor anyway. 

OK now do Paul Whelen (and Marc Fogel).

Edited August 3, 2022 by DDD Dad

[Blotto 23,509]

14 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Those are certainly your projections both inner and outer. I’ve said multiple times she doesn’t deserve to be there and neither do the others. 
 

My point was that she wasn’t kidnapped and forced to be there, and trading a terrorist and a murder for her release seems like a poor choice. 
 

Finally, neither you or I know if the substance was planted. The absolute certainty on either side is ridiculous. 
 

* And if we do proceed with the swap, bring them all back. Don’t leave anyone behind. I hope they can find a deal that does that because any deal will be poor anyway. 

Thats what gets me. I saw a clip of the segment on the  ESPYs pleading for Brittney's return and noticed that there was not one mention of Marc Fogel. And for the most part, whenever I hear the "Free Brittney" contingent, its always just about Brittney. So don't tell me that the fact she's a black lesbian WNBA player who protests against racial injustice is working against her in this case. 

As to whether we should make a deal for all of them, I dont see it as a simple yes or no answer. If Russia offers to exchange all American prisoners caught with weed for a $100 best buy coupon, you absolutely agree and we joyously welcome them home. Alternately, if Russia offers to exchange all American prisoners caught with weed for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris who will be executed for crimes against Russia, most sensible people would argue the price is too high. Scenario A -good, Scenario B- bad. As nobody here is involved in the negotiations we really don't know what the asking price is, so any absolute statements about what the US should or shouldn't agree to is pointless. All we know is that a serious offer has been extended by the US in hopes of determining what the price will be. 

But in my opinion, any deal made for Griner that excludes Fogel is fucking bullshit. Pleas by the American people for Griner's return that dont include Fogel are fucking bullshit. Throw Whelan into that discussion as well. 

['stache 21,815]

4 minutes ago, Blotto said:

Thats what gets me. I saw a clip of the segment on the  ESPYs pleading for Brittney's return and noticed that there was not one mention of Marc Fogel. And for the most part, whenever I hear the "Free Brittney" contingent, its always just about Brittney. So don't tell me that the fact she's a black lesbian WNBA player who protests against racial injustice is working against her in this case. 

As to whether we should make a deal for all of them, I dont see it as a simple yes or no answer. If Russia offers to exchange all American prisoners caught with weed for a $100 best buy coupon, you absolutely agree and we joyously welcome them home. Alternately, if Russia offers to exchange all American prisoners caught with weed for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris who will be executed for crimes against Russia, most sensible people would argue the price is too high. Scenario A -good, Scenario B- bad. As nobody here is involved in the negotiations we really don't know what the asking price is, so any absolute statements about what the US should or shouldn't agree to is pointless. All we know is that a serious offer has been extended by the US in hopes of determining what the price will be. 

But in my opinion, any deal made for Griner that excludes Fogel is fucking bullshit. Pleas by the American people for Griner's return that dont include Fogel are fucking bullshit. Throw Whelan into that discussion as well. 

You're surprised that a sports award show focused on an athlete being detained? Yeah, she's kind of the one whose relevant to that crowd. And, in case you're not actually reading anything, Whelan is part of the offer. Not sure why Fogel or others aren't mentioned, you should be asking that of the state department. Pretty much everyone here and nationwide have said that others should be released as part of any deal, and at least one other is part of the current offer.

Edited August 3, 2022 by 'stache

[Js1 85,337]

On 7/28/2022 at 1:42 AM, 956 Worldwide said:

I did not realize that Britney Griner was landing in Russia on February 17 and not departing. My sympathy for her case plummeted.  The DT thread on the invasion was in full swing.  We were telling the world the invasion was coming in days and it did. On February 9 the State Department sent an alert:

She landed a week after that alert. Now we’re going to trade her for the world’s worst arms dealer and hand Putin a huge propaganda win? I’m leaving towards telling Griner that she unfortunately FAFO. She wanted to get big money from big Russian bizness and got fucked over, she has all the relevant warnings available. If anything, we should prioritize people who have been in longer, before the warnings.

The only defense I MIGHT give her is she probably had a contract her oligarch bosses wouldn't let her out of (since Putin is their butt buddy) and she couldn't afford the financial penalty for telling them to fuck off she's not going back to play. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19,190]

On 7/28/2022 at 1:42 AM, 956 Worldwide said:

Now we’re going to trade her for the world’s worst arms dealer and hand Putin a huge propaganda win?

We ain’t trading her for the CEOs of Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and General Dynamics. 

[Blotto 23,509]

1 minute ago, 'stache said:

You're surprised that a sports award show focused on an athlete being detained? Yeah, she's kind of the one whose relevant to that crowd. And, in case you're not actually reading anything, Whelan is part of the offer. Not sure why Fogel or others aren't mentioned, you should be asking that of the state department. Pretty much everyone here and nationwide have said that others should be released as part of any deal, and at least one other is part of the current offer.

again thats bullshit. I would say that 90%+ of the time that I hear the issue discussed, I dont hear Fogel's name mentioned at all. 

[DDD Dad 14,339]

2 minutes ago, Blotto said:

Thats what gets me. I saw a clip of the segment on the  ESPYs pleading for Brittney's return and noticed that there was not one mention of Marc Fogel. And for the most part, whenever I hear the "Free Brittney" contingent, its always just about Brittney. So don't tell me that the fact she's a black lesbian WNBA player who protests against racial injustice is working against her in this case. 

As to whether we should make a deal for all of them, I dont see it as a simple yes or no answer. If Russia offers to exchange all American prisoners caught with weed for a $100 best buy coupon, you absolutely agree and we joyously welcome them home. Alternately, if Russia offers to exchange all American prisoners caught with weed for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris who will be executed for crimes against Russia, most sensible people would argue the price is too high. Scenario A -good, Scenario B- bad. As nobody here is involved in the negotiations we really don't know what the asking price is, so any absolute statements about what the US should or shouldn't agree to is pointless. All we know is that a serious offer has been extended by the US in hopes of determining what the price will be. 

But in my opinion, any deal made for Griner that excludes Fogel is fucking bullshit. Pleas by the American people for Griner's return that dont include Fogel are fucking bullshit. Throw Whelan into that discussion as well. 

I'm on board with including all of our people in any deal.

I'm not as upset as many about Bout being exchanged.  His sentence was mandated under federal sentencing guidelines and likely would have been less (and probably fully served by now but for the guidelines), per the judge who sentenced him.

Quote

Scheindlin, who retired in 2019 and is now in private practice, said she likely would have given Bout a shorter sentence had there not been a mandatory minimum of 25 years. She said the risk that he will now return to arms trafficking is minimal as he likely has lost touch with his contacts during his 11 years in prison.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-judge-russian-arms-dealer-case-backs-griner-swap-ex-agent-balks-2022-07-29/

[jimmyjazz 45,952]

14 minutes ago, Blotto said:

Alternately, if Russia offers to exchange all American prisoners caught with weed for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris who will be executed for crimes against Russia, most sensible people would argue the price is too high.

['stache 21,815]

16 minutes ago, Blotto said:

again thats bullshit. I would say that 90%+ of the time that I hear the issue discussed, I dont hear Fogel's name mentioned at all. 

Because you're looking to be outraged. Read any article (i.e., not random facebook posts or comments) and they almost always mention others. And where it's not, its usually sports focused or specific to Griner since she is by far the most famous and attention grabbing. Stop looking for outrage, or just admit you don't like her because she dared to protest the anthem in support of issues specific to the Black community.

[Blotto 23,509]

3 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Because you're looking to be outraged. Read any article (i.e., not random facebook posts or comments) and they almost always mention others. And where it's not, its usually sports focused or specific to Griner since she is by far the most famous and attention grabbing. Stop looking for outrage, or just admit you don't like her because she dared to protest the anthem in support of issues specific to the Black community.

First, you can fuck right off for putting words in my mouth regarding my opinions on athletes protesting the anthem. I have been pretty open supporting all athletes, especially Kaepernick, for protesting the anthem, and leveraging their high visibility to bring attention to matters they find important. I have zero issues with that at all. 

Second, I'm not looking for outrage about Griner.  I personally think she  is a fucking dumbass for flying into Russia with illegal drugs (has nothing to do with the fact she's black, lesbian, etc...). I also think the same about Fogel (he's not black or a lesbian as far as I am aware). They both fucked up, and now the country has to decide what price we pay for bailing them out for their stupid decisions. While I hope we are able to bring them back, I also acknowledge that some prices may not be worth it, and expect it to  take a while as the russians know they have us by the short and curlies. They dont give a fuck if Bout is released next week or next year, and right now Putin gets more benefit by holding Griner due to the public pressure its exerts on the Biden admin. 

And third, if you think Fogel's plight is getting anywhere close to equal attention you might be a whole hell of a lot dumber than I gave you credit for. As an example, here's an article from the noted online Griner lesbian blog, cnn.com: 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/25/politics/house-passes-bipartisan-resolution-brittney-griner-release/index.html

Kindly point out the attention brought to Fogel. For that matter, I actually went digging for the actual house resolution to see if Fogel was mentioned in that:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-resolution/1132/text 

Lets see if you can point out Fogel's name in that text.  You might think that he is covered by the wording "(3) expresses continued support for Paul Whelan and all prisoners unjustly imprisoned in the Russian Federation." But here's the deal, the US government has not declared that Fogel is being wrongfully detained, despite getting a 14 year sentence for essentially the same fucking crime Griner is accused of. The difference between the two is basically celebrity. Fogel is getting fucked becuase he is not famous, and yeah I have a problem with that. 

[DDD Dad 14,339]

4 minutes ago, Blotto said:

First, you can fuck right off for putting words in my mouth regarding my opinions on athletes protesting the anthem. I have been pretty open supporting all athletes, especially Kaepernick, for protesting the anthem, and leveraging their high visibility to bring attention to matters they find important. I have zero issues with that at all. 

Second, I'm not looking for outrage about Griner.  I personally think she  is a fucking dumbass for flying into Russia with illegal drugs (has nothing to do with the fact she's black, lesbian, etc...). I also think the same about Fogel (he's not black or a lesbian as far as I am aware). They both fucked up, and now the country has to decide what price we pay for bailing them out for their stupid decisions. While I hope we are able to bring them back, I also acknowledge that some prices may not be worth it, and expect it to  take a while as the russians know they have us by the short and curlies. They dont give a fuck if Bout is released next week or next year, and right now Putin gets more benefit by holding Griner due to the public pressure its exerts on the Biden admin. 

And third, if you think Fogel's plight is getting anywhere close to equal attention you might be a whole hell of a lot dumber than I gave you credit for. As an example, here's an article from the noted online Griner lesbian blog, cnn.com: 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/25/politics/house-passes-bipartisan-resolution-brittney-griner-release/index.html

Kindly point out the attention brought to Fogel. For that matter, I actually went digging for the actual house resolution to see if Fogel was mentioned in that:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-resolution/1132/text 

Lets see if you can point out Fogel's name in that text.  You might think that he is covered by the wording "(3) expresses continued support for Paul Whelan and all prisoners unjustly imprisoned in the Russian Federation." But here's the deal, the US government has not declared that Fogel is being wrongfully detained, despite getting a 14 year sentence for essentially the same fucking crime Griner is accused of. The difference between the two is basically celebrity. Fogel is getting fucked becuase he is not famous, and yeah I have a problem with that. 

['stache 21,815]

29 minutes ago, Blotto said:

First, you can fuck right off for putting words in my mouth regarding my opinions on athletes protesting the anthem. I have been pretty open supporting all athletes, especially Kaepernick, for protesting the anthem, and leveraging their high visibility to bring attention to matters they find important. I have zero issues with that at all. 

Second, I'm not looking for outrage about Griner.  I personally think she  is a fucking dumbass for flying into Russia with illegal drugs (has nothing to do with the fact she's black, lesbian, etc...). I also think the same about Fogel (he's not black or a lesbian as far as I am aware). They both fucked up, and now the country has to decide what price we pay for bailing them out for their stupid decisions. While I hope we are able to bring them back, I also acknowledge that some prices may not be worth it, and expect it to  take a while as the russians know they have us by the short and curlies. They dont give a fuck if Bout is released next week or next year, and right now Putin gets more benefit by holding Griner due to the public pressure its exerts on the Biden admin. 

And third, if you think Fogel's plight is getting anywhere close to equal attention you might be a whole hell of a lot dumber than I gave you credit for. As an example, here's an article from the noted online Griner lesbian blog, cnn.com: 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/25/politics/house-passes-bipartisan-resolution-brittney-griner-release/index.html

Kindly point out the attention brought to Fogel. For that matter, I actually went digging for the actual house resolution to see if Fogel was mentioned in that:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-resolution/1132/text 

Lets see if you can point out Fogel's name in that text.  You might think that he is covered by the wording "(3) expresses continued support for Paul Whelan and all prisoners unjustly imprisoned in the Russian Federation." But here's the deal, the US government has not declared that Fogel is being wrongfully detained, despite getting a 14 year sentence for essentially the same fucking crime Griner is accused of. The difference between the two is basically celebrity. Fogel is getting fucked becuase he is not famous, and yeah I have a problem with that. 

I never said "equal attention." I literally said the opposite. I said that Griner gets more attention because she is more well known and that articles that don't mention others are sports related or specific to Griner based on her celebrity. Whelan is mentioned in several articles (including the one you link to) and is part of the current offer. I don't know why Fogel isn't included or mentioned in these article as often, but it's not because of Griner. The exchange includes one person who is not Griner. So stop already with the angry outrage about why others aren't included. It's clear from your over the top anger and outrage that it's about a lot more than "well she's just a dumbass."

Edited August 3, 2022 by 'stache

[Nivek 16,930]

2 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Finally, neither you or I know if the substance was planted. The absolute certainty on either side is ridiculous. 

False equivalency here.  I said I am skeptical of anything from the Russian Government that cannot be independently verified but I do know that the government which shot down an airliner and lied about it and poisons and sentences political dissidents for what seems to be trumped up charges in order to silence opposition is not above framing individuals especially just before a scheduled invasion.    The only certainty in which I have expressed is that I do not trust the Russian government.  

46 minutes ago, Blotto said:

I personally think she  is a fucking dumbass for flying into Russia with illegal drugs (has nothing to do with the fact she's black, lesbian, etc...).

^This guy believes and trusts Russia.   Maybe he thinks Ukraine has -30 HIMARS driving around as well. 

[Hermanator 7,050]

14 hours ago, justhookit said:

Yes because that thread was the only source of information at the time.

She’s not going to prison for the rest of her life unless you think she’s dying at an early age. @Hermanator will not agree because I’m a fucking idiot American and have no idea how any of this works. He said the vape cartridges were 100% planted and if you believe otherwise you are an idiot. He was wrong before, she was headed IN to Russia not out, and now she’s admitting she had a doctor’s prescription for it.

They likely watched her and took her down at an opportune time. Doesn’t change the fact that she is guilty AND we need to help her out but not by trading for arms dealers and killers.

Believing Anything that comes from Russia/Putin is as stupid as believing anything that comes from Trump. 

 

With any entity that has proven untrustworthy I require absolute proof. 

Ask religions about that. 

[justhookit 4,191]

10 hours ago, Hermanator said:

Believing Anything that comes from Russia/Putin is as stupid as believing anything that comes from Trump. 

 

With any entity that has proven untrustworthy I require absolute proof. 

Ask religions about that. 

The “evidence” that she vapes is not coming from Russia you dumb fuck.

Slowly this time, she likely had it, Russia was likely watching her, she should not be charged with large scale transport of drugs or whatever the charge is. She is likely guilty of breaking Russian laws. We should help her.

Im in a foreign country right now and trust me I don’t do anything that might get me in trouble with their legal system.

[Tuco 5,076]

First, you can fuck right off for putting words in my mouth regarding my opinions on athletes protesting the anthem. I have been pretty open supporting all athletes, especially Kaepernick, for protesting the anthem, and leveraging their high visibility to bring attention to matters they find important. I have zero issues with that at all. 
Second, I'm not looking for outrage about Griner.  I personally think she  is a fucking dumbass for flying into Russia with illegal drugs (has nothing to do with the fact she's black, lesbian, etc...). I also think the same about Fogel (he's not black or a lesbian as far as I am aware). They both fucked up, and now the country has to decide what price we pay for bailing them out for their stupid decisions. While I hope we are able to bring them back, I also acknowledge that some prices may not be worth it, and expect it to  take a while as the russians know they have us by the short and curlies. They dont give a fuck if Bout is released next week or next year, and right now Putin gets more benefit by holding Griner due to the public pressure its exerts on the Biden admin. 
And third, if you think Fogel's plight is getting anywhere close to equal attention you might be a whole hell of a lot dumber than I gave you credit for. As an example, here's an article from the noted online Griner lesbian blog, cnn.com: 
https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/25/politics/house-passes-bipartisan-resolution-brittney-griner-release/index.html
Kindly point out the attention brought to Fogel. For that matter, I actually went digging for the actual house resolution to see if Fogel was mentioned in that:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-resolution/1132/text 
Lets see if you can point out Fogel's name in that text.  You might think that he is covered by the wording "(3) expresses continued support for Paul Whelan and all prisoners unjustly imprisoned in the Russian Federation." But here's the deal, the US government has not declared that Fogel is being wrongfully detained, despite getting a 14 year sentence for essentially the same fucking crime Griner is accused of. The difference between the two is basically celebrity. Fogel is getting fucked becuase he is not famous, and yeah I have a problem with that. 

It may have more to do with how the families want to approach it than it does with anything else.
My understanding is the usual game plan is to avoid media coverage. If you’re asking a foreign government to circumvent their normal legal system, it means their normal legal system is not just or that Americans should be above it. Neither proposition is one a foreign government wants to admit publicly. Imagine how that plays out with you their public. Making that argument publicly paints them in a corner.
The alternative is to beg for clemency. Say they fucked up, they’re really sorry, they never meant any disrespect for the just government of Freedonia, and could you please do us this solid and let them come home to see their dying nana. But you are asking for a favor, not demanding justice. You do that quietly.
The latter was never an option for Griner.

[washparkhorn 9,939]

Sentence is 9 years. 

[Grade of D as in David 13,253]

Fuck Russia, but if we make a deal for her then we need to release all federal nonviolent convictions for weed too.

[South Austin 52,504]

10 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Sentence is 9 years. 

So with the Russian equivalent of good time, she'll be out in, what, 20 years?

[elguapo 4,586]

9 hours ago, justhookit said:

 

Im in a foreign country right now and trust me I don’t do anything that might get me in trouble with their legal system.

[South Austin 52,504]

17 minutes ago, Grade of D as in David said:

Fuck Russia, but if we make a deal for her then we need to release all federal nonviolent convictions for weed too.

Fucking A, man.

[InkaUtexas 25,940]

For those who said it is not just about her, the US Embassy issued a statement and she was the only human named. 

I want them all out of Russia, just like I want all those prosecuted for weed released. But we cannot sell out our US policy over her. 

[hayden_horn 11,362]

9 years.

for some pot.

they convicted her on drug smuggling. i mean, we knew this was a foregone conclusion as soon as she was arrested, right?

as someone who travels (more past tense since covid, though it might pick up again soon) to many foreign countries, i'm sympathetic to the "don't fuck around and you won't find out" philosophy for the most part, except for a few exceptions, one of which almost landed me in a holland jail, but that's a story for another time.

this situation, however, is amply clear in that the russian government set her up. i don't really even care if she was carrying a couple of thc vape cartridges and is technically guilty of possession. everything about this from the jump was political and that goes to the highest level in russia. putin wanted her guilty. he probably even came up with the number 9 years. 

we should not let the idea that we should not domestically imprison non-violent drug offenders stop us from trying to right this foreign injustice. if she got a commensurate charge and sentence, say possession and 2 years, or whatever, yeah, that sucks, but you play with fire, you'll get burned. 

there are several sacred things in this world that you don't ever mess with. one of them happens to be another man's fries. another happens to be russian largesse. 

 

[4th&Five 41,552]

 

[Grade of D as in David 13,253]

22 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

9 years.

for some pot.

they convicted her on drug smuggling. i mean, we knew this was a foregone conclusion as soon as she was arrested, right?

as someone who travels (more past tense since covid, though it might pick up again soon) to many foreign countries, i'm sympathetic to the "don't fuck around and you won't find out" philosophy for the most part, except for a few exceptions, one of which almost landed me in a holland jail, but that's a story for another time.

this situation, however, is amply clear in that the russian government set her up. i don't really even care if she was carrying a couple of thc vape cartridges and is technically guilty of possession. everything about this from the jump was political and that goes to the highest level in russia. putin wanted her guilty. he probably even came up with the number 9 years. 

we should not let the idea that we should not domestically imprison non-violent drug offenders stop us from trying to right this foreign injustice. if she got a commensurate charge and sentence, say possession and 2 years, or whatever, yeah, that sucks, but you play with fire, you'll get burned. 

there are several sacred things in this world that you don't ever mess with. one of them happens to be another man's fries. another happens to be russian largesse. 

 

So if she got 2 years instead we should just leave her there? Why not let her serve 2 years and then negotiate her release? 

It was a sham from the start and we should be trying to get her back. Although I don't support trading the merchant of death for her. That sounds like a trade the Texans would make. 

Lastly, if we do end up changing our policy and trading for her then it's hypocritical as fuck to keep Americans locked up at home for the same crime.

[Celery Man 20,949]

Is Brittney Griner an outspoken leftist or something, or is that just assumed because she's black and gay? Trying to understand the general stance from our most deplorable citizens.

 

*edit* oh I bet she kneeled after George Floyd or something

Edited August 4, 2022 by Celery Man

['stache 21,815]

1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

Is Brittney Griner an outspoken leftist or something, or is that just assumed because she's black and gay? Trying to understand the general stance from our most deplorable citizens.

She joined the anthem protests so ShE HaTeS AmErIcA and therefore deserves to rot in Russian gulags. 

[South Austin 52,504]

3 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Is Brittney Griner an outspoken leftist or something, or is that just assumed because she's black and gay? Trying to understand the general stance from our most deplorable citizens.

She's black, gay, and has spoken out about the national anthem at games.

Brittney Griner, Brianna Turner call for WNBA to stop playing national anthem this season