Boo fucking Hoo Brittney Griner

[Ghost of Shag 2576]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

This is about people’s lives and if getting an uneven deal means we can get even one more American home safely then we do it.

I agree with most of what you’ve said but this right here is a stance that’s easy to take when you have no real experience dealing with these types of negotiations.

Simply, there are plenty of uneven trades that are not worth the life of a single American, no matter who it is.

Beyond that, this strategy is pure bullshit to the degree that you either haven’t fully thought through it, or you’re not as smart as you’d like to present yourself on this board.

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33824]

3 hours ago, Pancho said:

I didn’t have Micah Parsons going full MAGA about this on my 2022 Bingo card.

😳

he corrected himself and apologized. that got a follow from me

['stache 21743]

5 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

he corrected himself and apologized. that got a follow from me

He still referred to Whelan as a "Retired Marine Paul Whelan" not "Dishonorably Discharged Ex-Marine Paul Whelan." He's still a fucking beast on the field and that's all I really care about.

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

59 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Paul Whelan: The strange case of the ex-marine jailed for spying in Russia https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-53110087
 

“In one email exchange during his early 2018 trip to Moscow, a relative joked: ‘Don't get into any trouble we can't get you out of, haha!’

"’I will be with guys from the FSB, so should be okay!’, the American wrote back.”

So...Boo fucking Hoo Paul Whelan? Talk about fucking around and finding out. ‘Don’t worry about me. I’m hanging out with Russian intelligence!’

A marine goes vacationing in Russia. Starts making acquaintances with members of Russian military and the former KGB. He gets court-martialed for trying to steal $10,000, so he’s got greed going for him. He gets discharged for bad conduct so he might be feeling some resentment. He may as well be wearing a big flashing sign that says “Recruit me! Recruit me! Recruit me!” He may not have access to state secrets. (Maybe corporate secrets?) But that profile just screams “patsy.”

[Foosters 17691]

1 hour ago, Constant said:

Did they give him some time served? He was sentenced in 2012. 

Arrested in 2008. Never heard of any American court not counting the days you spend in custody prior to sentencing (absent a plea agreement to waive back time.)

Then again, I've never represented Russian arms dealers in Fed court.

[Firemans4Horn 17792]

Oh no! An Arms dealer!!!???

 

…checks notes

 

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

51 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Russia wouldn’t release Griner unless we released a fucking arms dealer. What do you think they’re asking in exchange for an accused Spy? Maybe, just maybe, we’re trying everything we can 

we already have people bitching because we released the arms dealer while at the same bitching we should do more to get Whelan released.

They’d still be bitching if Biden got both Griner and Whelan out. 

[yoladu 4065]

1 hour ago, Enchubben said:

If the goal is to bring home Americans safely - perhaps not releasing someone that was actively trying to sell surface to air missiles and airplanes with grenade launchers designed to take down US airmen would be an alternative strategy.

Tens of thousands of weapons are produced in this country a day; that are sold by Americans to Americans, that are designed to kill (Americans).

So you know.. whatever.

[hobbes2702 12771]

18 minutes ago, Ghost of Shag said:

I agree with most of what you’ve said but this right here is a stance that’s easy to take when you have no real experience dealing with these types of negotiations.

Simply, there are plenty of uneven trades that are not worth the life of a single American, no matter who it is.

Beyond that, this strategy is pure bullshit to the degree that you either haven’t fully thought through it, or you’re not as smart as you’d like to present yourself on this board.

 

We aren’t going to “win” every negotiation with hostile foreign nations. Sometimes we will have to bite the bullet like today. 

Obviously I was speaking in platitudes not laying out foreign policy positions or strategy. The overall point is the same though, we should try to get every American home and sometimes that means we “lose” the trade.

['stache 21743]

13 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

“In one email exchange during his early 2018 trip to Moscow, a relative joked: ‘Don't get into any trouble we can't get you out of, haha!’

"’I will be with guys from the FSB, so should be okay!’, the American wrote back.”

So...Boo fucking Hoo Paul Whelan? Talk about fucking around and finding out. ‘Don’t worry about me. I’m hanging out with Russian intelligence!’

A marine goes vacationing in Russia. Starts making acquaintances with members of Russian military and the former KGB. He gets court-martialed for trying to steal $10,000, so he’s got greed going for him. He gets discharged for bad conduct so he might be feeling some resentment. He may as well be wearing a big flashing sign that says “Recruit me! Recruit me! Recruit me!” He may not have access to state secrets. (Maybe corporate secrets?) But that profile just screams “patsy.”

Lol, but Griner totally deserved it for some vape residue and he's a hero!

Edited December 8, 2022 by 'stache

[TheRealRonWeaver? 1258]

I'm of the opinion that the government should try to bring any American home safely if they can.  With the lone exception of Ted Cruz.

Is he American, though?

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

23 minutes ago, Grade of D as in David said:

Did we at least send Bout back like the norks did with Otto Warmbier? 

Remember, Kim told Trump that he had nothing to do with Warmbier and Trump believed him because they’re lovers.

As long as we vaccinated Bout while he was in prison then we'll be able to track the chip we implanted in him. We’ll keep tabs on him. 

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

30 minutes ago, Ghost of Shag said:

I agree with most of what you’ve said but this right here is a stance that’s easy to take when you have no real experience dealing with these types of negotiations.

Simply, there are plenty of uneven trades that are not worth the life of a single American, no matter who it is.

Beyond that, this strategy is pure bullshit to the degree that you either haven’t fully thought through it, or you’re not as smart as you’d like to present yourself on this board.

 

So your choice would be to leave Griner stuck in a Russian labor camp?

[Satchel 6908]

From those with skin in this game:

https://apnews.com/article/brittney-griner-michigan-united-states-government-russia-bbf0c7e3029fea40d604b11fd271533f

The family of an American detained in Russia for nearly four years said Thursday that the Biden administration “made the right decision” by agreeing to a prisoner exchange that freed WNBA star Brittney Griner, but relatives are “devastated” that Paul Whelan remains behind.

Whelan, a Michigan corporate security executive, has been jailed since December 2018 on espionage charges that his family and the U.S. government have said are baseless.

“As the family member of a Russian hostage, I can literally only imagine the joy she will have, being reunited with her loved ones, and in time for the holidays,” David Whelan, Paul’s brother, said in a statement. “There is no greater success than for a wrongful detainee to be freed and for them to go home.”

[Js1 85055]

11 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Lol, but Griner totally deserved it for some vape residue and he's a hero!

One is a black lesbian who kneeled for the anthem and the other pals around with the FSB. The republicans ain’t gonna give Griner an ounce of grace unless she was in Russia to pick up Trump’s new passport and drop off some nuclear secrets to Putin

[Ghost of Shag 2576]

3 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

So your choice would be to leave Griner stuck in a Russian labor camp?

No, dumbass. I’m glad we got her out. There wasn’t going to be an even exchange, as has already been discussed.

That doesn’t excuse every uneven trade as justifiable on the basis of a single American life saved.

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

29 minutes ago, 'stache said:

He still referred to Whelan as a "Retired Marine Paul Whelan" not "Dishonorably Discharged Ex-Marine Paul Whelan." He's still a fucking beast on the field and that's all I really care about.

Are you talking about former Pedo State LB Micah Parsons?

[washparkhorn 9931]

33 minutes ago, 'stache said:

He still referred to Whelan as a "Retired Marine Paul Whelan" not "Dishonorably Discharged Ex-Marine Paul Whelan." He's still a fucking beast on the field and that's all I really care about.

You should read the BBC article I posted above. 

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

9 minutes ago, Ghost of Shag said:

No, dumbass. I’m glad we got her out. There wasn’t going to be an even exchange, as has already been discussed.

That doesn’t excuse every uneven trade as justifiable on the basis of a single American life saved.

So this trade was worth it? Above you made it sound like you thought it wasn’t when you said “this strategy is pure bullshit.” But then I don’t have the same real experience negotiating prisoner swaps that you obviously do. 

[Henry Hill 3156]

I’m just excited to see her back in WNBA action soon. The games were unwatchable without her presence.

['stache 21743]

14 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Are you talking about former Pedo State LB Micah Parsons?

No, NFL Defensive Player of the Year Micah Parsons. 

[Satchel 6908]

52 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

he corrected himself and apologized. that got a follow from me

Somebody should tell that kid that MAGA is a lot like COVID. Without your knowledge vaccination, you could catch it and find yourself in the middle of something you don’t understand.

[jimmyjazz 45512]

The sad irony here is that, were we to have arranged Bout for Griner & Whelan, @MNLonghornFUKM and the rest of the trumpy crew would be here bitching that we either (a) didn't get enough for Bout or (b) should have let Whelan (the disgraced traitor) rot in his Russian prison.

There is no truth, there is only opportunity.  Us vs. them, and "them" isn't the Russians or the Chinese or the North Koreans, it's the Americans who don't wear red hats and support fascist autocrats.

What a disgusting group of worthless individuals.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

The sad irony here is that, were we to have arranged Bout for Griner & Whelan, [mention=37]MNLonghornFUKM[/mention] and the rest of the trumpy crew would be here bitching that we either (a) didn't get enough for Bout or (b) should have let Whelan (the disgraced traitor) rot in his Russian prison.
There is no truth, there is only opportunity.  Us vs. them, and "them" isn't the Russians or the Chinese or the North Koreans, it's the Americans who don't wear red hats and support fascist autocrats.
What a disgusting group of worthless individuals.

Probably not, little Jimmy.


You probably want to get as much back as you can when you’re dealing one of the most dangerous guys in the world back to your biggest enemy.

[hobbes2702 12771]

3 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Probably not, little Jimmy.


You probably want to get as much back as you can when you’re dealing one of the most dangerous guys in the world back to your biggest enemy.

We literally did get as much as we could. 

[immamac 42492]

1 minute ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Probably not, little Jimmy.


You probably want to get as much back as you can when you’re dealing one of the most dangerous guys in the world back to your biggest enemy.

So you would have rather had both stay in Russia? I'm just trying to figure out what your problem is. 

Is your problem that a Gay Black Woman is the one coming home instead of a Straight White Man? 

Is your problem that we didn't get a 2:1 trade?

Is your problem that we didn't treat this as first in first out from political prisoner perspective?

Is your problem that we at all used this guy who we probably captured for this exact purpose as a bargaining chip to get any American back from Russia?

Seriously articulate what your fucking problem is here - I don't think it's the best situation, but I'm not gonna sit here and be try to spin this as a bad thing. 

[jimmyjazz 45512]

2 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

You probably want to get as much back as you can when you’re dealing one of the most dangerous guys in the world back to your biggest enemy.

And it looks like we did, assuming of course that Bout is "one of the most dangerous guys in the world", an assessment which neither you nor I have the information to judge.

It must be lovely going through life being fed one's reactions instead of thinking for one's self.  GED, indeed.

[Pato del Muerto 52320]

2 hours ago, 'stache said:

I'm pretty sure the calculus would be different if he had served 1 year instead of 14. Also, for all the terribleness of his crimes, how did he only get 25 years? And if it was terrorist related why was he in prison and not at Guantanamo or something?

I’d he had served his 25, do they just let him out like any other prisoner and say have a blessed rest of your life?

[Js1 85055]

2 minutes ago, immamac said:

So you would have rather had both stay in Russia? I'm just trying to figure out what your problem is. 

Is your problem that a Gay Black Woman is the one coming home instead of a Straight White Man? 

Is your problem that we didn't get a 2:1 trade?

Is your problem that we didn't treat this as first in first out from political prisoner perspective?

Is your problem that we at all used this guy who we probably captured for this exact purpose as a bargaining chip to get any American back from Russia?

Seriously articulate what your fucking problem is here - I don't think it's the best situation, but I'm not gonna sit here and be try to spin this as a bad thing. 

Biden did it = bad.

[DixonHur 11074]

So if you think this is a bad deal you're automatically a Trump supporter?  

What the fuck has happened to the CR?  You can go back through all of my posts and all you'll find is distain for Trump but I think it's a crap deal.  Not because we didn't get Whelan back, and not because we released the Merchant Death.  If it were a straight up one-for-one trade I would have said well done.

But the devil is in the details...are we really going to ignor the fact that Biden forced the Justice Department to drop the case against Putin's and Trump's bestie Mohammed bin Salman?  

I wonder how Jamal Khashoggi's family feels about it.

[royiv 9131]

6 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

I’d he had served his 25, do they just let him out like any other prisoner and say have a blessed rest of your life?

He would have been deported to Russia so he basically got a plane ticket back a few years early.

[Js1 85055]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

So if you think this is a bad deal you're automatically a Trump supporter?  

It is mostly Minny being a fucking broken brain cunt (which he has been since COVID) and unable to articulate anything coherently.  

[Pato del Muerto 52320]

So we traded some years of incarceration, including cost of inmate care, for probably the life of an American.   Sounds like a good deal.  

[immamac 42492]

3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

So if you think this is a bad deal you're automatically a Trump supporter?  

What the fuck has happened to the CR?  You can go back through all of my posts and all you'll find is distain for Trump but I think it's a crap deal.  Not because we didn't get Whelan back, and not because we released the Merchant Death.  If it were a straight up one-for-one trade I would have said well done.

But the devil is in the details...are we really going to ignor the fact that Biden forced the Justice Department to drop the case against Putin's and Trump's bestie Mohammed bin Salman?  

I wonder how Jamal Khashoggi's family feels about it.

I think it's a terrible deal. I don't know if I was in Biden's shoes that I would have made this deal, that doesn't mean that I think that Griner should be doomed to some insane shit in Russia, even if it was a case of FAFO. I don't think that you are a trump supporter for saying this was a bad deal. I think you are trump supporter if you spout nonsense like it is a bad thing that an American is coming home who was a clear political prisoner of Russia. 

[Dahobbs 17420]

5 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

So if you think this is a bad deal you're automatically a Trump supporter?  

What the fuck has happened to the CR?  You can go back through all of my posts and all you'll find is distain for Trump but I think it's a crap deal.  Not because we didn't get Whelan back, and not because we released the Merchant Death.  If it were a straight up one-for-one trade I would have said well done.

No one is saying that anyone who thinks it is a bad deal is automatically a Trump supporter. They are saying that Trump supporters automatically assume it is a bad deal. By all accounts, this was a one-to-one trade. 

Quote

 

But the devil is in the details...are we really going to ignor the fact that Biden forced the Justice Department to drop the case against Putin's and Trump's bestie Mohammed bin Salman?  

I wonder how Jamal Khashoggi's family feels about it.

 

Where do you see that these things are connected? The Mohammed bin Salman stuff was from last month and resulted in a civil lawsuit being dismissed based on sovereign immunity. As far as I know, the Justice Department didn't drop anything. It just filed a brief that said sovereign immunity applied. . 

[hobbes2702 12771]

8 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

So if you think this is a bad deal you're automatically a Trump supporter?  

What the fuck has happened to the CR?  You can go back through all of my posts and all you'll find is distain for Trump but I think it's a crap deal.  Not because we didn't get Whelan back, and not because we released the Merchant Death.  If it were a straight up one-for-one trade I would have said well done.

But the devil is in the details...are we really going to ignor the fact that Biden forced the Justice Department to drop the case against Putin's and Trump's bestie Mohammed bin Salman?  

I wonder how Jamal Khashoggi's family feels about it.

I haven’t seen anything that shows those two cases as being linked. Do you have something that says this?

Also that’s a sovereign immunity case so it’s not as though there wasn’t legal basis for that decision.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

So you would have rather had both stay in Russia? I'm just trying to figure out what your problem is. 
Is your problem that a Gay Black Woman is the one coming home instead of a Straight White Man? 
Is your problem that we didn't get a 2:1 trade?
Is your problem that we didn't treat this as first in first out from political prisoner perspective?
Is your problem that we at all used this guy who we probably captured for this exact purpose as a bargaining chip to get any American back from Russia?
Seriously articulate what your fucking problem is here - I don't think it's the best situation, but I'm not gonna sit here and be try to spin this as a bad thing. 

The guy starts civil wars and is deemed the most dangerous person in the world….for a bball player.

2 for 1 would be better than this. But apparently was never doable. And still a crappy deal.

I mean run the line in your head 100 times: “swapping one of the most dangerous guys on the planet for a wnba player was a good thing”

Do you really think Russia said he’s off the table? Russia lies about 99% of everything they’ve ever spewed but you will believe this?



It’s “not bad”. I mean it sucks for everybody that’s gonna have to deal with Bouts bullshit for the future. But for now the griners will be together for Christmas. Yay.

['stache 21743]

6 minutes ago, immamac said:

I think it's a terrible deal. I don't know if I was in Biden's shoes that I would have made this deal, that doesn't mean that I think that Griner should be doomed to some insane shit in Russia, even if it was a case of FAFO. I don't think that you are a trump supporter for saying this was a bad deal. I think you are trump supporter if you spout nonsense like it is a bad thing that an American is coming home who was a clear political prisoner of Russia. 

I think there is room for legitimate debate about the terms, but 95% of the critics are just mad about who she is and her public stances on social justice, and 99% of that comes from trump supporters. The critics in this thread are almost universally the latter. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by 'stache

[DixonHur 11074]

3 minutes ago, immamac said:

I think it's a terrible deal. I don't know if I was in Biden's shoes that I would have made this deal, that doesn't mean that I think that Griner should be doomed to some insane shit in Russia, even if it was a case of FAFO. I don't think that you are a trump supporter for saying this was a bad deal. I think you are trump supporter if you spout nonsense like it is a bad thing that an American is coming home who was a clear political prisoner of Russia. 

Agreed.

I just wish the deal didn't include letting someone off the hook for killing an American.

[hobbes2702 12771]

Just now, MNLonghornFUKM said:

The guy starts civil wars and is deemed the most dangerous person in the world….for a bball player.

2 for 1 would be better than this. But apparently was never doable. And still a crappy deal.

I mean run the line in your head 100 times: “swapping one of the most dangerous guys on the planet for a wnba player was a good thing”

Do you really think Russia said he’s off the table? Russia lies about 99% of everything they’ve ever spewed but you will believe this?



It’s “not bad”. I mean it sucks for everybody that’s gonna have to deal with Bouts bullshit for the future. But for now the griners will be together for Christmas. Yay.

Why don’t you run this line through your head…”an American is coming home after being held captive in a Russian labor camp”.

[DixonHur 11074]

2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

No one is saying that anyone who thinks it is a bad deal is automatically a Trump supporter. They are saying that Trump supporters automatically assume it is a bad deal. By all accounts, this was a one-to-one trade. 

Where do you see that these things are connected? The Mohammed bin Salman stuff was from last month and resulted in a civil lawsuit being dismissed based on sovereign immunity. As far as I know, the Justice Department didn't drop anything. It just filed a brief that said sovereign immunity applied. . 

You think its a coincidence that the US drops the case the day before Saudi Arabia brokers the deal? 

[Ghost of Shag 2576]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

So this trade was worth it? Above you made it sound like you thought it wasn’t when you said “this strategy is pure bullshit.” But then I don’t have the same real experience negotiating prisoner swaps that you obviously do. 

Illiteracy is its own reward.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Ghost of Shag

[Captainant 27309]

Minny having lavarr ball as his avatar really couldn't be any more perfect when you think about it

[hobbes2702 12771]

5 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

You think its a coincidence that the US drops the case the day before Saudi Arabia brokers the deal? 

The DOJ made the sovereign immunity brief in November.

And… https://www.reuters.com/world/saudi-arabia-did-not-mediate-griner-release-white-house-says-2022-12-08/

Edited December 8, 2022 by hobbes2702

[Dahobbs 17420]

1 minute ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

The guy starts civil wars and is deemed the most dangerous person in the world….for a bball player.

2 for 1 would be better than this. But apparently was never doable. And still a crappy deal.

I mean run the line in your head 100 times: “swapping one of the most dangerous guys on the planet for a wnba player was a good thing”

Uh, source on the "most dangerous person in the world" bit? Yes, he is was an arms dealer. And I think CBS may have called him "one of the most dangerous" men in the world. But that isn't the same thing at all. 

Quote

Do you really think Russia said he’s off the table? Russia lies about 99% of everything they’ve ever spewed but you will believe this?

Our source on this isn't Russia. It is the US government and Whelan's family. Or are you suggesting that Russia lied to our negotiators when it said Whelan was off the table? If the latter, from the US perspective, how does that change anything? If the party you're negotiating with says no deal, you can't exactly say "nah uh, you're lying, there is a totes a deal!"

[royiv 9131]

12 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

I mean run the line in your head 100 times: “swapping one of the most dangerous guys on the planet for a wnba player was a good thing”

Why were we due to release one of the most dangerous guys on the planet and send him home in a little over six years from now? I think you might be getting hung up on a nickname created to make it seem like a really big deal for PR purposes when the guy was arrested.

Edited December 8, 2022 by royiv

[Dahobbs 17420]

11 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

You think its a coincidence that the US drops the case the day before Saudi Arabia brokers the deal? 

The US government didn't drop the case. It was a civil lawsuit by the family. The judge ruled the sovereign immunity applied and dismissed the case. All the US government did was a file a brief last month (before Thanksgiving) saying that it believed sovereign immunity applied. So yes, I think it is a massive coincidence. I mean, maybe this thing as been worked out for a long time and just now gets announced. I don't know. But we don't have any evidence these things are connected. And the US government had no ability to force the judge to dismiss the case. Hell, the whole thing could still get appealed, so it's not like it is set in stone he is off the hook. 

Here is more on the dismissal. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/06/us/politics/saudi-mbs-khashoggi-biden.html

Quote

 

The State Department asked the court for an extension to make a legal determination, and then it filed a statement with the Justice Department on Nov. 17 that said Prince Mohammed should be “immune while in office.”

The letter said the State Department was not taking a position on the suit itself and repeated “its unequivocal condemnation of the heinous murder” of Mr. Khashoggi. Legal scholars said at the time that the determination was consistent with precedent.

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Dahobbs

[956 Worldwide 34313]

There’s some real fucking galaxy brain takes in this thread. The swap was as good as we were going to get and needed to be done. 
 

But if you’re comparing a man who literally funneled stolen eastern bloc arms to child soldiers in exchange for blood diamonds (also mined by children) to your local guns and ammo shop log off the internet for a while. 

['stache 21743]

16 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Agreed.

I just wish the deal didn't include letting someone off the hook for killing an American.

Arms don't kill people, people kill people. [/sarcasm]

[yoladu 4065]

13 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

The guy starts civil wars and is deemed the most dangerous person in the world….for a bball player.

2 for 1 would be better than this. But apparently was never doable. And still a crappy deal.

I mean run the line in your head 100 times: “swapping one of the most dangerous guys on the planet for a wnba player was a good thing”

Do you really think Russia said he’s off the table? Russia lies about 99% of everything they’ve ever spewed but you will believe this?



It’s “not bad”. I mean it sucks for everybody that’s gonna have to deal with Bouts bullshit for the future. But for now the griners will be together for Christmas. Yay.

Who deemed him the most dangerous person in the world? The most dangerous person in the world was set to be released in 2029? hmmm

We gave up the 6 remaining years of his sentence. As some one else stated earlier in this thread - his value to us was depreciating every day. In a couple of years, we wouldn't be able to trade him for more than a couple of bottles of Russian vodka.