US Birth Rate

[Sawbonz 27375]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

 

I think Stalin was out of the picture by then, and I've seen no evidence of forced labor sending Yuri Gagarin to space.

The starvation is part of the process. You don’t get one without the other. And re forced into a profession based on aptitude this was absolutely still happening into the late 80’s. 

[chainsaw 9831]

2 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Wife grew up in communism.  I grew up in a 75k house here, lower middle class at best.  Really I was poor but never thought of it that way.  I’ll let you guess who had it infinitely better.  She has no reason to lie about any of it.  
 

edit: we are definitely heading the wrong way though.  But to give Russia and China as examples is comical and horrific at the same time.  

It's a marathon, not a sprint.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11796]

1 minute ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Wife grew up in communism.  I grew up in. 75k house here.  I’ll let you guess who had it infinitely better.  She has no reason to lie about any of it.  

Oh I don’t want any part of communism, just saying there is no black and white when it comes to governmental systems.  Well except for America up until the 1970s or so.  Before then there was black and white.  Just saying “every man for himself” only works when there are a set of morals, of which we have none.

[chainsaw 9831]

Just now, Sawbonz said:

The starvation is part of the process. You don’t get one without the other. And re forced into a profession based on aptitude this was absolutely still happening into the late 80’s. 

Nobody intentionally starved anyone else. I'm not saying every aspect of USSR governance should be adopted, either. Forcing people into professions they don't want is an aspect I could do without. We have the technology to efficiently provide for everyone without violating anyone's human rights.

[Sawbonz 27375]

10 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

One could argue that a capitalist system does the same, it just makes the starving people feel better because the trickle down piss feels like rain. Especially when it’s 108 degrees, global warming doesn’t exist and ERCOT has your back.  

I don’t really think one can credibly argue that but knock yourself out if you want to take a shot at it. Truly unfettered capitalism has never worked long term in the US or anywhere else The pendulum has swung too far towards it lately but constrained capitalism is the best system mankind has come up with yet. If you know anyone who grew up in the Soviet Union and came here just ask them. Hell Boris Yeltsin was stupefied by a grocery store in clear lake. Probably wasn’t even an HEB

[Voldemort86 2259]

4 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I don't think anyone is arguing communism is better.  That's just dumb.  But the idea that capitalism is this amazing system, especially seeing where we are as a country right now, is also dumb.

I always thought the biggest flaw in capitalism is that once someone has a lot of money, it becomes very easy, dare I say effortless, to make a lot more money. Combined with the common policy of tax cuts coming from our politicians,  it creates a system where the rich get richer and most everyone else struggles to get by.

[Sawbonz 27375]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Nobody intentionally starved anyone else. I'm not saying every aspect of USSR governance should be adopted, either. Forcing people into professions they don't want is an aspect I could do without. We have the technology to efficiently provide for everyone without violating anyone's human rights.

Wtf are you taking about? Have you read a single book on the USSR?

 

How old are you?

[Biff Tannen 45477]

1 hour ago, Voldemort86 said:

I always thought the biggest flaw in capitalism is that once someone has a lot of money, it becomes very easy, dare I say effortless, to make a lot more money. Combined with the common policy of tax cuts coming from our politicians,  it creates a system where the rich get richer and most everyone else struggles to get by.

If capitalism is regulated properly, this is somewhat mitigated.  Clearly, we have not regulated it properly and I think we are about to see it burn to the ground.

[chainsaw 9831]

3 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I don’t really think one can credibly argue that but knock yourself out if you want to take a shot at it. Truly unfettered capitalism has never worked long term in the US or anywhere else The pendulum has swung too far towards it lately but constrained capitalism is the best system mankind has come up with yet. If you know anyone who grew up in the Soviet Union and came here just ask them. Hell Boris Yeltsin was stupefied by a grocery store in clear lake. Probably wasn’t even an HEB

Americans are routinely stupefied by visiting doctors offices in the EU.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11796]

I think the main issue we have is the white trying to cram everything back into that black and white world, because they are scared chickenshits who can’t envision a world where they aren’t in control, even though they’ll be dead before that happens.  We need a relatively level playing field for any child born in this country.  Instead we have us vs them. 

[chainsaw 9831]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

If capitalism is regulated properly, this is somewhat mitigated.  Clearly, we have not regulated it properly and I think we are about to see it burn to the ground.

I used to think this, but the more I think about it, the more I realize there's no getting around the "burn to the ground" outcome. All you can do is try to delay it, but it's the system itself that makes it inevitable.

[Sawbonz 27375]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Americans are routinely stupefied by visiting doctors offices in the EU.

Unless they need an actual surgery for a non impending life threatening condition

[troph 24548]

25 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

This is a very good example of what I mean by the ethos of capitalism and how it's so deeply ingrained that people police their own ideas without even realizing it.

It's built on a weak assumption that people will not innovate or even perform labor unless there's an existential threat to their finances. The US was second to send a man to space. The USSR was first. How did the USSR accomplish that without capitalism?

China is run by a communist party, and while there's no shortage of valid criticisms against China, nobody would accuse it of being unproductive. As far as innovation goes, take a look at the scoreboard

https://www.statista.com/statistics/256845/ranking-of-the-10-countries-who-filed-the-most-international-patent-applications/

Granted, I'm sure there's a lot caveats with the chart and how the information was gathered, but none of them would do much to change the point I'm making, which is that you don't need capitalism to innovate, and there's no evidence that capitalism is actually the best for innovation.

People are simply conditioned to believe it, but it isn't necessarily true.

You seem to be in denial about whether markets are having a race to the bottom. Can you show me three markets where we actually have meaningful competition and the competition is unquestionably beneficial to the public?

If you really want to argue the USSR as the chief example of innovation as to why capitalism is a failure and communism is a success in innovation then go for it and I’ll be here with popcorn to watch but probably won’t comment too much so as to stay out of your way.
 

As for China, it is an economic capitalist society with a communist political environment, which makes it even less likely to include the people or the plant as stakeholders.  It’s that dichotomy that has thrown the western world for a loop for sure but China as an economic super power isn’t leading us - the planet - out of global warming, it’s the western societies trying to turn the tide, through innovation.  

take those two examples - USSR and China - and stack them against the innovation of every western society since the dawn of the industrial revolution - heck just count the last 50 or even 20 years only - heck just take Taiwan vs China and US vs USSR, you can exclude all of Europe and other developed countries, and your argument fails miserably. 

Economic communism isn’t the answer, and for climate change and human rights political communism isn’t the answer either. The answer is liberal democracy with responsible and well regulated market capitalism where we all recognize humans and the planet are stakeholders is what will get us out of this. 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11796]

14 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I don’t really think one can credibly argue that but knock yourself out if you want to take a shot at it. Truly unfettered capitalism has never worked long term in the US or anywhere else The pendulum has swung too far towards it lately but constrained capitalism is the best system mankind has come up with yet. If you know anyone who grew up in the Soviet Union and came here just ask them. Hell Boris Yeltsin was stupefied by a grocery store in clear lake. Probably wasn’t even an HEB

The capitalist pendulum has indeed swung too far, and I don’t disagree with your basic premise, but I’ll just say in a microcosm, my company has 5 values on the wall, we are supposed to uphold.  They are good values.  But when the half-year rolls around and someone might not get their bonus, fuck that.  No values at all.  
The real issue is that people have become so stratified and “team” driven they are no longer able to recognize the values.  Hence the F250 with the Trump flag driving down the interstate highway, using GPS to broadcast their location, and then pulling over at a rest area to piss out their anger, and make sure that Medicare paid for their diabeetus meds, the social security check came in, and everyone else is a deadbeat because they didn’t earn a damned thing.   Fuck socialism! 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Judge Roybeanbag

[chainsaw 9831]

1 minute ago, troph said:

If you really want to argue the USSR as the chief example of innovation as to why capitalism is a failure and communism is a success in innovation then go for it and I’ll be here with popcorn to watch but probably won’t comment too much so as to stay out of your way.
 

As for China, it is an economic capitalist society with a communist political environment, which makes it even less likely to include the people or the plant as stakeholders.  It’s that dichotomy that has thrown the western world for a loop for sure but China as an economic super power isn’t leading us - the planet - out of global warming, it’s the western societies trying to turn the tide, through innovation.  

take those two examples - USSR and China - and stack them against the innovation of every western society since the dawn of the industrial revolution - heck just count the last 50 or even 20 years only - heck just take Taiwan vs China and US vs USSR, you can exclude all of Europe and other developed countries, and your argument fails miserably. 

Economic communism isn’t the answer, and for climate change and human rights political communism isn’t the answer either. The answer is liberal democracy with responsible and well regulated market capitalism where we all recognize humans and the planet are stakeholders is what will get us out of this. 

You made the claim that capitalism was 'best' for that, but there's no support and plenty of contrary evidence. Are you going to refute that markets are having a race to the bottom?

[David Dennison 18608]

49 minutes ago, slorch said:

The topic itself shouldn't even be political...  but y'all find a fucking way to take it there.

Hold up. You're saying population, which profoundly affects a nation's economy and fiscal health, shouldn't be political?

[chainsaw 9831]

3 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Unless they need an actual surgery for a non impending life threatening condition

You know they have surgeons in Europe right?

[Sawbonz 27375]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

You know they have surgeons in Europe right?

Sure. If you don’t mind waiting 6 months. How old are you again?

 

also why are you using the EU as an example of communism working well?

Edited July 10, 2022 by Sawbonz

[troph 24548]

8 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I used to think this, but the more I think about it, the more I realize there's no getting around the "burn to the ground" outcome. All you can do is try to delay it, but it's the system itself that makes it inevitable.

And it’s authoritarianism with the minority group remaining in power at all costs thats impeding progress to include humans and the planet as stakeholders. You’re proving your own points wrong. If the will of the majority was given due power instead of gerrymandering victories and stealing Supreme Court justices then the US - an attempt as a liberal regulated capitalist democracy would be leading the way on climate change. It’s the strongmen authoritarian fascists that are blocking that progress not capitalism.  Pointing again to the failure of every other form of political governmance.  As for the EU, they are liberal democracies, with a more regulated but still capitalist societies. Northern European societies may be the most advanced in the world, and the US has a lot to emulate from them, but virtually nothing to emulate from China and the USSR. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by troph

[chainsaw 9831]

1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

Sure. If you don’t mind waiting 6 months. How old are you again?

You think we have good wait times here??

[David Dennison 18608]

18 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I don't think anyone is arguing communism is better.  That's just dumb.  But the idea that capitalism is this amazing system, especially seeing where we are as a country right now, is also dumb.

If only we could find countries that have successfully implemented a mixture of capitalism and socialism.

[Sawbonz 27375]

Just now, chainsaw said:

You think we have good wait times here??

I know we do. Also they do in Europe if you are willing to use private insurance and or travel abroad for care.
 

Also EU is not communist so I’m not sure what point you are making 

[Biff Tannen 45477]

1 hour ago, troph said:

The answer is liberal democracy with responsible and well regulated market capitalism where we all recognize humans and the planet are stakeholders is what will get us out of this. 

And it is quite clear this is a pipe dream.  But it is a nice dream.

[ChiTownDoc 21091]

11 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

If capitalism is regulated properly, this is somewhat mitigated.  Clearly, we have not regulated it properly and I think we are about to see it burn to the ground.

Yeah the generational wealth part of it is a massive problem.  It’s extremely difficult to fix that but we should try harder.  I’m leaving none of it to next of kin, kids etc.  You’re welcome.  Hope to have enough to officially sign the giving pledge one day. 

[troph 24548]

5 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

You made the claim that capitalism was 'best' for that, but there's no support and plenty of contrary evidence. Are you going to refute that markets are having a race to the bottom?

I made the point that well regulated capitalism where humans and the planet are stakeholders is going to be the best option to get us out of this mess, yes. Do not leave out well regulated and the stakeholder part. If you leave it out you’re just arguing an agenda that’s frankly as transparent as any troll on here. 
 

Political and economic communism will not / has not / cannot lead humanity out of a crisis where innovation is what we need. Not going to happen. Hasn’t happened, and to argue it will ignores centuries of evidence. 

[royiv 9131]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

You think we have good wait times here??

Have you actually sought healthcare in Europe? I have in the UK and the NHS was a shithole compared to what you can get in Houston. Where do you live that wait times are so bad? I've never had to wait more than 10 days to schedule a non-emergent surgery.

[troph 24548]

2 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

And it is quite clear this is a pipe dream.  But it is a nice dream.

We’ve gotten a lot closer in Northern Europe and the US than any other time in human history. But make no mistake the fascists and authoritarian strong men are currently the number one impediment.

[chainsaw 9831]

Just now, troph said:

And it’s Davison and authoritarianism with the minority group remaining in power at all costs thats impeding progress to include humans and the planet as stakeholders. You’re proving your own points wrong. If the will of the majority was given due power instead of gerrymandering victories and stealing Supreme Court justices then the US - an attempt as a liberal regulated capitalist democracy would be leading the way on climate change. It’s the strongmen authoritarian fascists that are blocking that progress not capitalism.  Pointing again to the failure of every other form of political governmance.  As for the EU, they are liberal democracies, with a more regulated but still capitalist societies. Northern European societies may be the most advanced in the world, and the US has a lot to emulate from them, but virtually nothing to emulate from China and the USSR. 

If you're willing to concede that capitalism isn't the best mode of production, and that we can do better, then I can agree the USSR and China are not governments I'd want to emulate beyond their rudimentary foundation of rejecting capitalism.

Their failures (and in China's case I don't think we can really call it a failed state given that it's poised to become the top global superpower, but that's irrelevant for now) have more to do with authoritarianism, despotism, and ignoring human rights. This is a thread about sustainability, population, and birth rates.

We are in late stage capitalism, and it's an absolute dumpster fire. That doesn't mean we should emulate despots or embrace authoritarianism. But it does mean the status quo is unacceptable, and if we're having a conversation about allocating resources, we should take the opportunity to consider and adopt more efficient ways of doing so.

Capitalism promises much but has delivered this dumpster fire. Maybe it felt like a good idea in the past, but we've reached a breaking point. It has outlived its usefulness as a mode of production.

[chainsaw 9831]

2 minutes ago, royiv said:

Have you actually sought healthcare in Europe? I have in the UK and the NHS was a shithole compared to what you can get in Houston. Where do you live that wait times are so bad? I've never had to wait more than 10 days to schedule a non-emergent surgery.

And what did you pay?

[Sawbonz 27375]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

Their failures (and in China's case I don't think we can really call it a failed state given that it's poised to become the top global superpower, but that's irrelevant for now) have more to do with authoritarianism, despotism, and ignoring human rights.

These are all necessary components to implementation of communism. Have you read Lenin?

[Biff Tannen 45477]

1 hour ago, royiv said:

Have you actually sought healthcare in Europe? I have in the UK and the NHS was a shithole compared to what you can get in Houston. Where do you live that wait times are so bad? I've never had to wait more than 10 days to schedule a non-emergent surgery.

I recently spent time in two different ERs in Italy and they blew anything I've seen in America away.  Quick, efficient, high quality care.  Higher standard than America and I had an American ER doc there to verify.  Oh, also 100% free.

[chainsaw 9831]

1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

These are all necessary components to implementation of communism. Have you read Lenin?

Who said anything about implementing communism?

[royiv 9131]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

And what did you pay?

About $36k. 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11796]

10 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Sure. If you don’t mind waiting 6 months. How old are you again?

 

also why are you using the EU as an example of communism working well?

Because the average American is so fucking dumb that anyone that isn’t American is communist?

[chainsaw 9831]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

I recently spent time in two different ERs in Italy and they blew anything I've seen in America away.  Quick, efficient, high quality care.  Higher standard than America and I had an American ER doc there to verify.  Oh, also 100% free.

There are people today who are dead because we did not research or produce the drugs they needed, and the only reason why not is because something else was more profitable.

[Sawbonz 27375]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

Who said anything about implementing communism?

Lol so you are not advocating implementing communism with all your posts saying how superior communism is to our current system?

[chainsaw 9831]

Just now, royiv said:

About $36k. 

That's more than half the median household income for Harris County. Not something to be proud of, if you're defending the US health care system.

[chainsaw 9831]

Just now, Sawbonz said:

Lol so you are not advocating implementing communism with all your posts saying how superior communism is to our current system?

I was responding to someone claiming without evidence that capitalism is the only way to innovate and produce, which is simply untrue.

[royiv 9131]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

I recently spent time in two different ERs in Italy and they blew anything I've seen in America away.  Quick, efficient, high quality care.  Higher standard than America and I had an American ER doc there to verify.  Oh, also 100% free.

That's actually good to hear as I was flabbergasted by how bad the NHS hospital was. Old, outdated facilities, lots of patient safety issues, poor medication management, etc. I had always heard great things about NHS so it was something that was really surprising to me. 

[ChiTownDoc 21091]

16 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

You know they have surgeons in Europe right?

Wife’s friends 55 year old dad died waiting for a totally operable renal cell carcinoma.  Nephrectomy and done.  Nope.  Died.  This was 2 years ago.  

[Sawbonz 27375]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

There are people today who are dead because we did not research or produce the drugs they needed, and the only reason why not is because something else was more profitable.

What medical conditions would have been eradicated under a communist system that haven’t been addressed under ours? And why hasn’t China (or even any of the socialist systems in Europe) already taken care of them?

[chainsaw 9831]

1 minute ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Wife’s friends 55 year old dad died waiting for a totally operable renal cell carcinoma.  Nephrectomy and done.  Nope.  Died.  This was 2 years ago.  

If we're going to be comparing preventable deaths I don't think this is a hill you want to die on.

[Sawbonz 27375]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I was responding to someone claiming without evidence that capitalism is the only way to innovate and produce, which is simply untrue.

Quote them saying only. I must have missed that

[royiv 9131]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

That's more than half the median household income for Harris County. Not something to be proud of, if you're defending the US health care system.

This was in the UK. I thought that was what you were asking about. My out of pocket for a surgery in the US is usually around $500 if I haven't hit my out of pocket max for the year. Employer sponsored insurance takes care of the rest. That's a whole other issue in our system, but I'm only talking quality and wait times in this reference. We could go down a very deep rabbit hole on costs.

[troph 24548]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

If you're willing to concede that capitalism isn't the best mode of production, and that we can do better, then I can agree the USSR and China are not governments I'd want to emulate beyond their rudimentary foundation of rejecting capitalism.

Their failures (and in China's case I don't think we can really call it a failed state given that it's poised to become the top global superpower, but that's irrelevant for now) have more to do with authoritarianism, despotism, and ignoring human rights. This is a thread about sustainability, population, and birth rates.

We are in late stage capitalism, and it's an absolute dumpster fire. That doesn't mean we should emulate despots or embrace authoritarianism. But it does mean the status quo is unacceptable, and if we're having a conversation about allocating resources, we should take the opportunity to consider and adopt more efficient ways of doing so.

Capitalism promises much but has delivered this dumpster fire. Maybe it felt like a good idea in the past, but we've reached a breaking point. It has outlived its usefulness as a mode of production.

I don’t concede it. How you think I’ve given any indication I do concede it suggests your a sophomore at UT smelling your own flatulence in a political philosophy class and finding the odor pleasant.
 

You’re wrong on more levels than I can count. Your examples are horridly bad.  There are severe problems in our society but tossing liberal democracy and a well regulated capitalist society for USSR/Chinese communism is shockingly bad logic. 
 

Significant reforms are needed but give me the US ideals espoused by those who are NOT advocating fascism along with Northern European ideals and I’ll take my chances. 

[Sawbonz 27375]

Just now, chainsaw said:

If we're going to be comparing preventable deaths I don't think this is a hill you want to die on.

no by all means start comparing 

[chainsaw 9831]

Just now, troph said:

I don’t concede it. How you think I’ve given any indication I do concede it suggests your a sophomore at UT smelling your own flatulence in a political philosophy class and finding the odor pleasant.
 

You’re wrong on more levels than I can count. Your examples are horridly bad.  There are severe problems in our society but tossing liberal democracy and a well regulated capitalist society for USSR/Chinese communism is shockingly bad logic. 
 

Significant reforms are needed but give me the US ideals espoused by those who are NOT advocating fascism along with Northern European ideals and I’ll take my chances. 

Nobody here supports fascism dude.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11796]

Here y’all go doing black and white again.  How about a system that gives free preventative care, like colonoscopies and mammograms, and health credits for you know, being healthy, instead of arguing about big dollar items and the huge cost of end of life care?

[troph 24548]

5 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I was responding to someone claiming without evidence that capitalism is the only way to innovate and produce, which is simply untrue.

I didn’t say that. I didn’t say the only way, I didn’t say pure capitalism. I said:

1. Liberal democracy 

2. well regulated capitalism 

3. where the planet is a stakeholder, and

4. where humanity is a stakeholder.

gives us our best chance to innovate out of this climate change mess where rapid innovation and efficiency is needed most. 

does the US do this well? Some parts better than others - the very fact we have technologies that could get us out is a huge success but at the moment the soul of America has been kidnapped so probably not. That is NOT an indictment of 1-4 above, it’s an indictment of fascism, authoritarianism, and political Christianity. 
 

what’s the answer? Honestly sidelining the republicans and letting adults in the room that recognize the problems work to solve them is the answer. 

[troph 24548]

7 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Nobody here supports fascism dude.

New here?  New to the US?  What the hell do you think the republicans are these days? Jesus Christ man, wake up. 

Edited July 10, 2022 by troph